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thrawn
29-12-2008, 19:20
So i got some questions being new demon player.

Are flamers just regular shooting guys? in other words do they suffer -1 if your over half distance, -1 for moving, -1 for being in cover, etc? i know they don't suffer -1 for multiple shots but is that it? in which case, are they really that good? i mean if you have been playing demons, do you find they get their points worth? how do you use them? thanks!

theunwantedbeing
29-12-2008, 19:31
Page 45 of the Daemons of Chaos armybook.
Yes they are brilliant.
You use them like normal skirmishers with missle weapons, just more agressively.

Kalandros
29-12-2008, 20:20
Yeah you suffer all the normal penalties except for Multiple Shots.

Latro_
29-12-2008, 21:48
As above.

Just started daemons myself and in a 2k game after taking 5, I am now taking 10.
They pump out some serious firepower.. 18" is offest by their move of 6", Skirmish makes them that lil harder to get shot back and VERY nimble since you get 360 fire arch and can move how you like.

Whack ontop of that 2 S5 attacks (the same as a flesh hound) each and they can (if needs be) hold their own in combat too, all be it with ws2.

Only downside I see with em is ya opponent crying cheese... but meh.

thrawn
29-12-2008, 22:05
ok but why are they so good? on paper they don't look that great. i mean for 35 points each have you had a lot of succes with them?

thrawn
29-12-2008, 22:06
thanks latro! that's more what i was looing for!

Latro_
29-12-2008, 22:12
Might wanna edit individual pts cost, not allowed on ws! quick quick ;)

Yea totally awesome! d6 shots EACH! go up the flank bs4! They can really put a dent in units and tottally obilterate fast cavalry.

They're considered one of the best choices in a daemons army i have found, and as such tend to get a lot of 'sighs' when spammed.

wizuriel
29-12-2008, 22:50
forget daemon army for their point cost and fire power they are one of the best units in the game.

they have good movement, skrimishing so harder to shoot back at and 360 LOS, multiple wounds, high strength, 5+ ward save, unbreakable and fear causing. each model shoots D6 shots which turns out to be alot of fire power. Even in close combat they have a good toughness, strength and with the 5+ ward save and iirc multiple attacks each they are a decent fighting unit. very underpriced for what they can do (though that seems to be the cause of most units in the daemon book)

Kalandros
30-12-2008, 01:17
Their Greatest Weakness...

Chillwind (:

fubukii
30-12-2008, 02:18
i actually have a great story that happened with my flamers of tzeentch

i was playing a empire player i moved up out of cover shot and killed a unit of pistoliers, then got charged by a slightly wounded steam tank ( had 4 wounds on it and i was about 9 inches away) so i figured i would be out of his probable charge range he got lucky passed his steam got 4d3 impact, i did 1 wound with stand and shoot he did 6 wounds with impact i passed 5 wards!!!!!!!!!!!

Preceeded back to do 2 more wounds after armor saves! All in all i ended up killing the stank in combat with flamers in 2 more turns :(

penek
30-12-2008, 15:04
they are awesome for sure, but sometimes dice betray you, and your average number of shots become 1-2 from each flamer.

Latro_
30-12-2008, 16:28
heh thats why you take them in multiple units of 5-6. Thinking about it, they're like the fantasy version of 40k ork lootas.. but harder.

thrawn
30-12-2008, 19:11
so the general consensus is to take them. ok, i have enough points in my army for 5 of them. i'll try them out for a couple of games and see how they fair. i was leaning towards riders of slaanesh, but they don't seem to get as much positive feedback?

blackjack
30-12-2008, 19:43
Consider what you want a unit to acompilsh, flamers are not a replacement for riders, the two units do completly diffrent things.

About riders of slannesh. Riders are Fast cav that can't retreate. Bait and retreat is the single best reason to take fast cav. Fiends do the job of fast flank, warmachine hunting and charge redirection better.

Fiends are a replacement for Riders not flamers.

Lazarus15
31-12-2008, 05:20
4-5 Flamers in a friendly game is a good number.

In a competitive game, the more the better. Do NOT be suprised about the rediculous amount of damage these guys can pump out.

penek
31-12-2008, 13:26
the keyword here "Can". They not do reduculous amount of damage, they just "can" do it, sometimes.

Lazarus15
31-12-2008, 15:09
Every time I use them, they do not fail to impress. That is just my experience. Have a War Hydra charge this unit and see if it lives, try that, and then tell me that they "can" do damage.

Even taking the median in the range of 1-6, being 3 or 4, multiply that by five and you have between 15 and 20 shots S4 Flaming. The margin of error with 5 dice is pretty big, so let say you will have 10-28 shots at S4 Flaming. Then couple that with the Combat of 2 S5 attacks each, and they have 2 wounds. Then they opponent still has to wound them (t4 isn't bad). Then the ward of course.

The point being is that five flamers for a measly 190 points (pyrocaster included) is amazing.

inq.serge
31-12-2008, 16:14
What's their weakness? Have they a chance against things like Brace of Handgun Maneaters, DoW pistol-duellists, DoW Heavy Cavalry or Dark emissaries?

Cannons?

MarcoPollo
31-12-2008, 22:09
Don't forget about the demonic gift that allows a tzeetch herald to act like a flamer. Get them flying and you can snipe characters behind lines. If I remember correctly, flyers don't march.

Latro_
01-01-2009, 21:13
Their weakness is ws2 and they are also t4 5+ ward, ok they have two wounds but can still be hurt fairly easily with 2d6 missile spells.

Also any big unit ill hammer them in combat (but the're fairly fast so you should be able to avoid big scraps)

inq.serge
01-01-2009, 22:14
2 wounds!

[Would faint if it wasn't for the Iron Stamina of Death].

Now that's mighty. I thought they were only like 1 W each. If they where, a unit of 10-15 Dow pistol-duellist could wipe them out on a charge, even after being stand-and-shot.

Now they are mightier than I thought.

Chiungalla
01-01-2009, 22:18
Their Greatest Weakness...

Chillwind (:

Nope.
There greatest weakness:
High elf with dragon armor on eagle.

Storak
01-01-2009, 22:53
Their weakness is ws2 and they are also t4 5+ ward, ok they have two wounds but can still be hurt fairly easily with 2d6 missile spells.

i hit them with 2d6 S4 hits in my last battle. did a single wound (slightly below average result. but obviously those spells are NOT the answer)

each of them has the power of 3.5 handguns (with better BS) on a single base (and frontage matters a lot). with skirmish, high move and decent CC ability, they are simply insane.

most of the units that can hurt them, will suffer massively from a single shooting phase (or stand and shoot)


Also any big unit ill hammer them in combat (but the're fairly fast so you should be able to avoid big scraps)

they should be placed in terrain. charging them with ranked units isn t a real option often.

who ever calculated their point costs forgot to factor in half their special rules..

Latro_
02-01-2009, 10:24
hmmm I think you were prob a bit unlucky with your 2d6 spell. They are really good at dishing out stuff yes, but they are still T4 2w!, sustained magic/firepower back at them 'will' get them outta the way.

Also remember they nearly cost as much as a chaos knight each right?! so shoudlent just be killed off by a cheap unit of fast cav or something in one turn.

On the hangunner front they also:
lack the range of a handgunner
lack the AP of a handgunner

inq.serge
02-01-2009, 12:20
But, aren't they useless against a charge from HE dragon princesses?

Latro_
02-01-2009, 12:26
I think the point is they can hold their own in combat which as a shooty unit is very good. Something like heavy cav is obviously gonna splat them, but with their speed and skirmish and role, if you let that happen too often you aint using them right.

mossel
02-01-2009, 12:28
yep, pretty much useless against dragon princes :)

then again, any daemon player knows this, and would rather shoot the swormasters, spearmen... to bits.


I think they are one of the best units in the game, but certainly not unbeatable! I have succesfully played against daemons with both my wood elves and dark elves. WE used the Hail of Doom Arrow, and a turn of glade guard shooting to vanquish a unit of 6.
DE do great against them using chillwind and a merry chariot charge :p

kramplarv
02-01-2009, 12:43
besides, heavy cavalry ain't the answer either. A unit of flamers will probably kill one or two knights with S&S. :) flamers are insane. 55 pts should be more balanced...

inq.serge
02-01-2009, 12:48
What more then Dragon Princesses and High Elves with dragon armour are immune to fire?

Ozorik
02-01-2009, 13:01
Thats 1 army, what about everyone else?

Flamers have no genuine weakness, ok WS2 but they are still S5, T4 plus their devastating stand and shoot reaction, while being by far the most points efficent ranged unit in the game. Oops.

thrawn
02-01-2009, 17:00
Ya they are good and i'm pretty happy with how they worked out. i played undead and even though i was dropping a lot of guys, i couldn't get a shot at any good targets so i kept killing guys that he just reserected. annoying! i'm going to be using them against DE soon, i'll let you know how they work then. i think i'll go hydra hunting with them, a lot of people having been saying they're good at that!