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reikhardt
30-12-2008, 17:52
Hi
Recently,i've played a 1000 pts games with WoC against Dwarfs.
I've lost and only have killed like 5 of them...I tried a list with more protection,so my army was lacking impact,thus unable to pierce the dwarf defenses.So now I am a bit discouraged,what units would be useful against them?Next game is in 2-3 days and we'll be playing on 1500 pts.
Thanks for your help

Makarion
30-12-2008, 18:01
Well, Dwarves have got to be about the worst enemy for Warriors of Chaos. You *have* to come to him, so he can filed his best formation - blocks of Ld9 infantry in heavy armour and with T4, supported by plenty of ranged nastiness. At 1,500 points, I doubt you can breach his magical defences, as well, so you're really limited in your options.

I'd probably go for an all-mounted force, in a few sturdy units, and hope to concentrate your force on his units one by one. Dwarves are slow, and if he doesn't keep the blocks close together, you may be able to tackle them piecemeal.

Kadrium
30-12-2008, 18:13
Knights and Ogres with nurgle mark. Set up flank charges. Lots of Slaaneshi fast cav and warhounds to screen his shooting/war machines.

Ozorik
30-12-2008, 18:16
What sort of list does your opponent use?

I presume its a gun line of some description so Ill base my advice of that.

Dont bring infantry blocks, this is what Dwarves excell at so will likely overpower your own infantry, especially if they have been weakened by ranged firepower.

2 units of knights, 4 units of hounds and 4 units of marauder horsemen with flails would do well.

The hounds take the brunt of missile fire in the first couple of turns. The horsemen are more than capable of taking out artillery crew and quarellers/thunderers from the flank.

If you can neutralise the Dwarven ranged assets you will have enough time to set up combined charges on their infantry blocks. Warriors, iron breakers and longbeards should be your first targets as they will be eaily beaten by a unit of knights to the front and some horsemen to the flank or rear.

Slayers and hammerers should be ignored or tarpitted if possible as they are likely to stand up to the charge.

Essentially the best army to beat the usual dwarven gunline is fast, hard cavalry. Exactly the sort of thing that WoC can field.

Magic wise the Dwarf player is likely to have 5 DD and a scroll, possibly 2. If you take magic at all go all out, the lore of nurgle is probably the nastiest against dwarves for that pit of slime type spell. Otherwise dont bother taking any magic at all, its just wasted points.

bork da basher
30-12-2008, 18:17
at 1500pts concentrate soley on getting into combat as quickly as possible. forget monsters and multi wound creatures, he's garenteed to take bolt throwers and cannons to cut them down. forget magic he has none and any you take at this points level wont be enough to cause much damage against dwarfs natural defenses, plus he might opt to take an expensive runesmith to safegaurd even further and would have wasted those points if you dont bother at all.

id take knights, horsemen and warhounds in large numbers, this will mean you should be charging on turn two, thus giving him a single turn for his shooting to count. it wont be enough to stop you and you'll slam into him. turn his flanks and run him down. he'll be too slow to do a thing about it.

the only charecters id bother with are exalted champions and id proberly have them out on steeds of slaanesh or discs of tzeentch to dive on warmachines and small units of thunderers and xbows or to counter marchblocking gyros.

id steer clear of any kind of warrior units or any slow marching units at all, dwarf gunnery will make a mess of them before they get halfway accross the table.

ive played against dwarfs twice now with my WoC and although the first turns hurt once you get stuck in with the right charges they cant hold despite their naturual toughness and great armour.

hit hard and fast, try to turn a flank so he cant counter charge with all his army, try to block LoS to your units as much as possible and make sure you have plenty of screening units of hounds, he'll have to deal with them or they'll be on his warmachines.

Wulfrik
30-12-2008, 18:22
Well, your screeners are about half as effective b/c he'll have his good units on hills- that makes it your choice if you're going to take them or not. Chances are you won't need them to redirect at all, and he can fire over them, so for my money, they're no longer worth it in the cav force, but an asset in the all marauder list due to stopping some of his shooting at what's important.

Wulfrik can be an asset with a unit of flail or GW marauders with MOK- just be aware that the turn they come on, they're getting blasted by whatever in the line can see them, so choose your location carefully.

Other than that, you have two choices, which will be debated until the cows come home: numbers or elite horseman. Your horseman will hit possibly turn two, probably turn three, meaning on average you're going to have to weather three rounds of shooting into you high-priced cav units. For every Knight you take, you could take six to eight Marauders who will hit probably on turn four, or turn five if he's set up in his back six inches. If you intersperse a few units of hounds to move up faster, your opponent must choose between firing at throw away units, or having his gunline engaged in combat in turn three- either way, it'll be one round less of shooting at your horde. Marauders with MOK and Flails will still hit like a tonne of bricks, two attacks each hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's with a -2 to his save- no Knights, to be certain, but with more models making it across the table, and rank and outnumber bonuses, it can make a difference. You could even equip them with LA + Shield if you felt the need- the shield won't help in close combat, but it will give you one more point to your save from the shooting on the way across the table.

Godswildcard
30-12-2008, 18:29
One combo to keep in mind is a unit of 6 knights with lances, full command, mark of tzeentch and the blasted standard. This gives you a 4+ward save against his shooting, which is pretty good considering that you'll still get a 3+ save against his gunline (or at least something if he's running organ guns). Once you get into combat, you'll likely be able to auto break his dwarfs (knights cause fear, and you're doing 13 WS5 S6 attacks on the charge) Thats -3 to his armor save, so he'll likely not get one at all. At the very least, you'll be able to kill 5 of them, thus taking out his front rank and ensuring they can't even try to hit you.

Another thing to consider is taking a hero, putting him on a steed and running him with a runesword and your knights. Use him to challenge the unit champion, which he will kill. Than you get a roll on the 'eye' table and overkill will go towards combat resolution. Than lather, rince and repeat as you continue to take down his line.

Ozorik
30-12-2008, 19:12
Well, your screeners are about half as effective b/c he'll have his good units on hills

Only if you set up terrain poorly. There is no rule which stipulates that deployment zones must feature a conveniently placed hill.

I also wouldn't bother with the horde approach, his blocks will win without flank charges on your part and, depending on how good he is, they may be hard to get. Speed and hitting power all the way.

Beware of issuing challenges against Dwarvern characters. If he knows he is facing chaos he can take some very nasty runic combos. Not so much of an issue at 1500 but at 2000 be careful about what you charge with important characters. In my last 3 games against chaos my own Dwarf lord has killed 2 Khornate lords and a keeper of secrets in challenges and only lost 1 wound in the process.

athamas
30-12-2008, 22:33
you could always try taking a hell cannon [or 2 at 2K+]

the S5 ignore armour will do wondos to his infantry [and its 20mm so more coverage!]

and you can trade blows with his artiliry.. [and yours is tougher!] rememeber the D6 wound of the stone thrower vs the D3 of the dwarven cannon!

Ozorik
30-12-2008, 23:02
Hellcannon are expensive, you can get 4 bolt throwers per hellcannon (more realistically 2 and a cannon). I dont like those odds :)

Whitehorn
30-12-2008, 23:31
Wulfrick should do the job.

Djekar
31-12-2008, 05:54
Wulfrick should do the job.

While I hate it, this is probably your best bet. I hate that WoC are almost forced to field a SC to deal with gunlines. On the other hand, maybe he'll keep those crazy non-fighty SC's in check (yes I'm looking at you, Thorek!).

Other than Wulfy, lots of hounds to screen and some fast cav to at least tie up the artillery would not go wrong. They also have the added bonus of doubling as flank breakers if you need them after the artillery is sufficiently dealt with. Warhounds = 30 points of mildly diluted awesome.

~Seal

Scythe
31-12-2008, 07:10
One combo to keep in mind is a unit of 6 knights with lances, full command, mark of tzeentch and the blasted standard. This gives you a 4+ward save against his shooting, which is pretty good considering that you'll still get a 3+ save against his gunline (or at least something if he's running organ guns). Once you get into combat, you'll likely be able to auto break his dwarfs (knights cause fear, and you're doing 13 WS5 S6 attacks on the charge) Thats -3 to his armor save, so he'll likely not get one at all. At the very least, you'll be able to kill 5 of them, thus taking out his front rank and ensuring they can't even try to hit you.

Not quite; you don't break anything automatically with fear unless you outnumber. Anyway, the combo is still a good one (though expensive); a 4+ ward really helps against Dwarf shooting. When charging basic Dwarf warriors, you kill about 6 models on average with knights
( 13 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 6.02 )
and ( 6 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 ) 0.75 models with steeds.
which means you generally win combat with 2-3 points difference (ranks, outnumbering). Those aren't amazing odds, especially when the BSB is near (remember Ld9), but you have cut down a whole rank of Dwarves. Throw a character into the mix, and odds are shifting towards you, though the point mismatch becomes even larger. Or take Khorne knights, point, and hope for the best... ;)


you could always try taking a hell cannon [or 2 at 2K+]

the S5 ignore armour will do wondos to his infantry [and its 20mm so more coverage!]

and you can trade blows with his artiliry.. [and yours is tougher!] rememeber the D6 wound of the stone thrower vs the D3 of the dwarven cannon!

The hellcannon could work... but it is a bit of a gamble. It isn't that much thougher as a basic war machine (T6 W4 4+ armor if I recall correctly vs T7 W3)... Dwarven artillery could take it out rather fast if they put their mind to it. On the other hand, every artillery piece firing at your hellcannon is not firing at you knights (or similar), and noone can ignore a hellcannon for a long period of time, especially those heavily armored, quickly dying to it Dwarves. Target saturation is never a bad thing.

Jericho
31-12-2008, 07:38
5W on the Hellcannon, actually. With 5 S5 attacks, Terror, and Unbreakable it's a pretty solid support unit for combat as well. It can tarpit on its own, or break ranks and cause havocs in the flanks. It's actually got a nice solid speed advantage against Dwarfs as well, with its 12" charge.

I just wish it still had a Daemonic ward save... back in the day I had a ton of cannonballs bounce off opponents' Hellcannons, and now that I play Chaos myself I really envy the old ones with 5++ saves.

Whitehorn
31-12-2008, 10:16
I just wish it still had a Daemonic ward save... back in the day I had a ton of cannonballs bounce off opponents' Hellcannons, and now that I play Chaos myself I really envy the old ones with 5++ saves.

You could get Festus or a BSB with Blasted standard to join the unit :)

Wulfrik
31-12-2008, 13:53
You could get Festus or a BSB with Blasted standard to join the unit :)

Wow, the idea of converting a specially designed "Pusscannon" for a thematic Nurgle army, where Festus is lobbing christmas presents at the enemy, is enticing!

Godswildcard
31-12-2008, 15:15
Not quite; you don't break anything automatically with fear unless you outnumber. Anyway, the combo is still a good one (though expensive); a 4+ ward really helps against Dwarf shooting. When charging basic Dwarf warriors, you kill about 6 models on average with knights
( 13 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 6.02 )
and ( 6 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 ) 0.75 models with steeds.
which means you generally win combat with 2-3 points difference (ranks, outnumbering). Those aren't amazing odds, especially when the BSB is near (remember Ld9), but you have cut down a whole rank of Dwarves. Throw a character into the mix, and odds are shifting towards you, though the point mismatch becomes even larger. Or take Khorne knights, point, and hope for the best... ;)


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the outnumber rule apply to unit strength? So if you are using 6 knights, your unit strength is 12. If you charge a unit of 15 dwarfs and kill 6 of them (using your math on average rolls), they now have a unit strength of 9. You, therefore, outnumber and they auto-break. But, I don't claim to be a rules guru, so if this is incorrect, please let me know so I can start playing right! :p

Goruax
31-12-2008, 16:15
Just wondering, but do your opponents usually run units of 15 basic Warriors?
If so...can I play him? :D
I might win a game for once!

Basic Dwarf blocks are/should generally be 20 strong. Elite blocks like Ironbreakers or Hammerers are often 15, but only if they dont wanna sink points into that unit.

Godswildcard
31-12-2008, 16:24
"So you're saying theres a chance!"

Even if there are 20 of them, they are auto breaking by second round of combat on average rolls. (20-6=14... 14-4= 10)

Granted, the dwarfs are starting off with a +3 resolution when you first charge them (assuming they are in 4 ranks of 5). Soooo.... Banners cancel, you kill 4. Ends up as a draw b/c they will get +1 for outnumber. Next round round they are only getting a +2 resolution, and in all likelyhood won't kill your knights (unless you roll TERRIBLE on your saving throws) You kill 4 (after horsies and what not) and now they have a unit strength of 10 to your 12. You outnumber, they run away. Right or wrong?

Hammerers should be incredibly vulnerable to this...ironbreakers, maybe not so much. what is an ironbreakers save?

And, as with most of my post, all of this is speculation and is only saying what should happen. I wish I could say that I steamroll dwarfs for a living, but alas, I cannot.

Makarion
31-12-2008, 16:56
Ironbreakers are 2+ on their armour with hw+s. Don't forget longbeards, either - stubborn Ld 9 troops are awfully hard to shift, and even at dwarf speeds that gives him time to drag a support unit over.

Goruax
31-12-2008, 17:04
There's one thing you're forgetting - luck/chance.
It's entirely possible that you kill only 3, or hell, kill only 1.

Also, if they hold you for one turn, it's highly likely that your Knights will get flanked, potentially by Hammerers, or other quick nasty hard-hitters.
That quickly turns your 'Uber Unit' into a 'Sucker Unit' who then run off/get mauled.

As Makarion said, even if you win first round, they are highly likely to stand firm and wait for the cavalry.
Of the stumpy legged variety ;)

Havock
31-12-2008, 17:06
Well, your screeners are about half as effective b/c he'll have his good units on hills- that makes it your choice if you're going to take them or not. Chances are you won't need them to redirect at all, and he can fire over them, so for my money, they're no longer worth it in the cav force, but an asset in the all marauder list due to stopping some of his shooting at what's important.

Since when do dwarves get to take a hill along? Hills in deployement zones are a big no-no IMO, they're a no-brainer for gunlines. Don't allow it, period.

Makarion
31-12-2008, 21:38
How are you going to stop it? He gets to place a minimum of two pieces of terrain, and if he puts one in each deployment zone, the only thing you can do about it is to plant a forest in front of it and hope that blocks enough of his LOS.

Ozorik
31-12-2008, 21:51
Just follow the terrain placement rules in the rule book and every time he places a hill put a wood/ruin/etc in front of it, he will soon get the message. Even if he doesnt his hills are now effectively worthless.

Alternatively follow the random terrain placement rules, or get a neutral third party to set up the board and dice off for table edge or anything else thats fair..

waiyuren
01-01-2009, 00:27
Who uses hills? As a Dwarf player, my Artillery is usually sandwiched between my close combat units to stop fast cavalry and flyers.....

Wulfrik
01-01-2009, 01:34
How are you going to stop it? He gets to place a minimum of two pieces of terrain, and if he puts one in each deployment zone, the only thing you can do about it is to plant a forest in front of it and hope that blocks enough of his LOS.

Some guys will drop impassable terrain on top of the hill plate to make it impossible to use it as a weapon position. Others will drop a 4-6" tall forest in front of the hill, rendering its line of sight blocked.

I will admit to having done the second, but only to block a second hill within a deployment zone. It makes perfect real-world sense for generals on both sides to address a battlefield so their artillery have at least a minor high ground. Normally the most you can fit on a single hill is two units/war machines anyway, and if I can't deal with that, then frankly, I probably don't deserve the win in the first place.

And besides, it does the evil half of my heart good when my opponent spends all his time and energy addressing the table to only one side, and looses the rolloff to place units... aww, look at that, now my marauders get a downhill run to build up momentum to attack your gun crews sitting on the valley floor...

Djekar
03-01-2009, 05:20
You can't stick Festus or a BSB with the Hellcannon because it's unbreakable, and characters that are not unbreakable cannot join units that are and vice versa. Sorry :( I had to check it out earlier when I was thinking about the Sorc Lord with Diabolic Splendor joining up for fun terror/panic times at Ridgemont High.

~Brown

Scythe
03-01-2009, 10:45
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the outnumber rule apply to unit strength? So if you are using 6 knights, your unit strength is 12. If you charge a unit of 15 dwarfs and kill 6 of them (using your math on average rolls), they now have a unit strength of 9. You, therefore, outnumber and they auto-break. But, I don't claim to be a rules guru, so if this is incorrect, please let me know so I can start playing right! :p

Correct, but like said, Dwarves tend to come in numbers of 20-25. Odds go up in second rounds of combat if you faced units of only 20, but remember you lose any S bonus from lances, so you're S5 max. Makes quite a difference for wounding/ saving. Also, keep in mind Dwarf elites are WS5, reducing your 'to hit' odds.

Harwammer
03-01-2009, 14:21
I used to play against a dwarf fan. He'd quit the game if you deployed forest on/infront of hills.

He believed it was his inherant dwarfy right to have a hill with uninterupted line of sight in each deployment zone. /sigh

Artemis360
03-01-2009, 14:27
Yeah, as other people have said (or something similar to what they've said) the following unit should unlock those sturdy dwarven gates for you:

10 knights, MoTzeentch, Blasted Standard, Standard bearer, musician, lances

540 points.

You may feel very dubious when looking at the points cost of that unit but this thing will totally destroy absolutely anything except possibly a very large unit of slayers, a single slayer with ASF or an anvil of doom.

I would also suggest taking some warhounds to try and redirect him when he wants to counter charging your knights once they're stuck in.

Also, to hunt his warmachines and throw him off balance, this might help:

Exalted Champion, MoTzeentch, Disc of tzeentch, Eye of tzeentch, enchanted shield, flail.

He may die but he should definitely be able to take something with him... Unless you're really unlucky...

Harwammer
03-01-2009, 14:35
I don't find hounds are that useful against dwarfs. Instead of charging the hounds and being redirected they just sit there and pound you with their guns.

Defender of Ulthuan
03-01-2009, 16:13
May the blessings of Grandfather Pox be upon you and your knights; may their lances strike deep, banners high and proud.

There might be more advice in that silly bit of preaching than even I know.

Scythe
05-01-2009, 10:47
Yeah, as other people have said (or something similar to what they've said) the following unit should unlock those sturdy dwarven gates for you:

10 knights, MoTzeentch, Blasted Standard, Standard bearer, musician, lances

540 points.

You may feel very dubious when looking at the points cost of that unit but this thing will totally destroy absolutely anything except possibly a very large unit of slayers, a single slayer with ASF or an anvil of doom.


Risky, but could work. The high unit strenght combined with their large amount of kills on the impact would almost certainly spell doom for anything not immuune to fear or psychology (remember: elite dwarf units can get runes to achieve this). Still, a few casualties (for example against a Dwarf character, or a few lucky wounds getting past their 1+/4+ ward versus shooting) could damage the effectiveness of the expensive unit considerably.

Nerhesi
05-01-2009, 15:20
The difference between 10 knights are 20 knights is...

+1 to CR. 200 points.

You still only have those 11 attacks + 5 horse attacks.

Vs those Elite units:

Hitting on 4+. Wounding on 2+ - assuming lances. Horses are 4+, 4+.
Averaging 5 wounds from riders. 1 from horse.

4 dwarves killed.

+1 for standard. Now assuming you got to his lines UNTOUCHED.. you have a rank bonus.

So far, you're beating him by 1.. that was assuming heavy armor, not glomoril or however it is spelled.

You are not auto-breaking by fear because a) he is probably immune to psychology, or b), 25 dwarves... even if you'd killed 5 - you're only tied for Unit strength. Again, this is assuming you didn't lose a single knight from any of his shooting while you were marching up straight into him.

-----

Against a non-elite.
Assume another 2 casualties (rounded up). So you're up on him by 3.

Problem with this is that the unit you just hit a unit worth around half your points... so as a dwarf player, I'd probably gladly let you take it - so that I can anvil my units into your rear/flank after.

Sam W.

fubukii
05-01-2009, 16:37
Field as many knights as you can, all with mok and one unit with MON and banner of rage, run up and punch his units in the face, use warhounds to block los of his shooting.

Brimweave
05-01-2009, 17:25
I used to play against a dwarf fan. He'd quit the game if you deployed forest on/infront of hills.

He believed it was his inherant dwarfy right to have a hill with uninterupted line of sight in each deployment zone. /sigh

Wow, that childish dwarf fan. If he has a forest infront of the hill he wanted to put his cheat.....I mean gunline on then he should adapt his tactics to accommodate it or not take a gunline army in the first place and use a balanced list instead like a decent person.

Rant over :D

Tyranno1
05-01-2009, 20:04
I am currently in the state of mind where I say that warriors of chaos cannot defeat a gunline.

Yes some people will come up with bizzare builds that may work, but to do so means we lose our effectivness against...well everything else.

A massive tzeentch unit of knights, sure it might work verses dwarfs, but an army with any speed will just avoid it. And a half decent ward save can only be applied to one unit, and 4+ will only save half your unit on avarage.

Festus in a hellcannon (would have to find out if its possible first), the hellcannons are so much less effective than they used to be I have doughts that they could even hit a dwarf cannon, let alone destry it (S5 shot). And in return its alot larger target.

And lets not forget that these can only be used in anticipation of a dwarf army, not exatcly something you can do when your opponents been already selected for you (e.g friendly,small,big tournies)

What I have gone to doing at my local GW is just making a plain WoC list that should take on all commers fairly well (expet gunlines of course) and just avoiding the dwarf players. Its really all that can be done.

And when going to a more competitive enviroment I just take another army, I dont want to have to give a massacre result to someone just because they can pick an all gun list.

Because as I see it, the warriors were never supposed to beat gunlines easily, back in HoC days we had a chance with furies,screamers,half decent daemon characters, beast herds (wasnt a gurentee, but at least it was something), but now it seems that weakness has been magnified by Phil Kelly.

Makarion
05-01-2009, 20:49
I think that WoC can defeat gunlines - but not under 2,000 points. That's because I expect that your main chance against solid gunlines is to go really magic-heavy (and points-denial for the non-characters).

John Vaughan
06-01-2009, 04:46
I played against a dwarf list in 1000 pts that had an organ gun, a cannon with 3 units of hangunners and 2 units of 20 warriors. It wasnt fun, but I won. Know how? Sheer dumb luck. I took 2 units of 25 or so warriors, each with a cc hero in it, and one with the 5+ standard and MOT. I sauntered for the whole game, taking shot after shot. I passed loads of armor saves. In the end, all I had left were my two cc characters, as he had shot the 50 warriors to high heaven. I charged his gunline with the two characters, and beat him to a fiery chaos hell. The reason why I won? I conveniently contested all of his board edges, killed all of his characters, while my 400 pts of characters remained. People keep telling me that putting so many points in one or two models is foolish. I tell them poppycock.

So, against dwarves, take loads of ward saves. Its the one thing that they cannot negate, and many people underestimate the value of a 4+ ward to shooting. Also, try to confound his guess measurements by starting 2" back in your deployment zone, or make them off center to his cannon. Those two inches throw of so many dwarf players that its funny!

bork da basher
06-01-2009, 07:03
I am currently in the state of mind where I say that warriors of chaos cannot defeat a gunline

i dissagree strongly, i utterly trounced one last week and lost less than 300pts of minis all game. he got a single turn of firing before i got to charge his flank with multiple units of knights and horsemen whilst i flung hounds in the way of his few combat units to block them off and the whole line crumpled and fled within two turns.

if you play a footslogging army against a gunline then i agree with with. theres no way in hell you could survive a gunline without the aid of a chaos dragon or something.

Tyranno1
06-01-2009, 09:33
i dissagree strongly, i utterly trounced one last week and lost less than 300pts of minis all game. he got a single turn of firing before i got to charge his flank with multiple units of knights and horsemen whilst i flung hounds in the way of his few combat units to block them off and the whole line crumpled and fled within two turns.

Please could you trade places with me :p, I would love to play a dwarf army that could be beaten that easily.

When I last played a dwarf army my maruder horsemen and dogs got wiped out by his crossbowmen and gun guys in a single round of shooting. And his cannons/caterpults mashed my knights into a pulp (and only half of the shots hit). And my only flyer got vapourised by the anvil of cheesiness (along with a few more knights).

Even if I had lasted longer I would have just got the same punishment next turn. No chance of winning even from the start.

You are probalby a great player and everythnig, but you really needed to have had some bad luck from the dwarf player to not smash alot of your units to bits (or he aimed for the wrong targets).

Havock
06-01-2009, 13:26
I would just use the same build I used last time, I think.
11 PD in 8 levels
Banner of wrath

2x5 knights (both Tzeentch, one with banner of rage, the other with blasted standard)
1x12 warriors with banner of wrath + MoT
1x20 marauders (HW/shield/LA, full command)
2x6 warhounds
1x5 horsemen.

fubukii
06-01-2009, 17:56
i fail to see how knights of chaos die so easily to all this sdwarf shooting

Minus the organ guns and bolt throwers
you get a 2+ save vs the xbows,
3+ vs handguns
4+ vs organ guns (not great but could be alot worse)
THe key here will be to field as many hounds as possible.

TonyFlow
06-01-2009, 18:09
uuuh no save to cannons, bolt throwers and grudgethrowers... Just saying

Scythe
07-01-2009, 07:50
And there's the matter of quantity. Lots of firepower can always cause problems, no matter how puny the shooting is. Besides, Chaos Knights are 40 points minimum. Sure, they get a 3+ save against handgun fire. Still, it is more worthwhile pts wise to shoot at the knights than to shoot at a typical 5-10 pts infantry model in another amy, which usually doesn't get a save.

Tyranno1
07-01-2009, 09:45
Minus the organ guns and bolt throwers
you get a 2+ save vs the xbows,
3+ vs handguns
4+ vs organ guns (not great but could be alot worse)
THe key here will be to field as many hounds as possible.

Thats why any good dwarf player aims for the hounds/maruders with the crossbows and handguns. And a +4 save really isnt something you want to be doing on a 40+ points model (taking into account magic banners and command that are attached to the knights).

And you completly forgot the cannons,bolt-throwers and grudgethrowers who give you no armour save whatsoever.

And theres the anvil of cheese which aims for anything it wants, picking of the biggest threat before you can do anything (like a guy on disc/slaanesh steed, or a mage).



And there's the matter of quantity. Lots of firepower can always cause problems, no matter how puny the shooting is. Besides, Chaos Knights are 40 points minimum. Sure, they get a 3+ save against handgun fire. Still, it is more worthwhile pts wise to shoot at the knights than to shoot at a typical 5-10 pts infantry model in another amy, which usually doesn't get a save.

Exactly. I lost an entire unit of knights that were taking 3+ saves just because my opponent happened to roll alot of hits for hand of dust(just as an example of alot of hits).

bork da basher
07-01-2009, 09:54
And you completly forgot the cannons,bolt-throwers and grudgethrowers who give you no armour save whatsoever.

And theres the anvil of cheese which aims for anything it wants, picking of the biggest threat before you can do anything (like a guy on disc/slaanesh steed, or a mage).

this is why i take a sorcerer lord and 2 lvl2 sorcerers all on discs, by turn 2 there shouldnt be any warmachine threat at all. if your cafeful you can avoid the worst of the incoming fire and a few rounds of tzeentch magic will devestate any machine crews. even dwarfs natural magic resistance cant cope with 12 PD per turn. leaving your knights reasonably unmolested to crush his small units of xbows and thunderers. your hounds and horsemen take the flanks and its game over really as soon as combat is reached and thats garenteed by turn two.

an anvil of doom will suffer the same fate as the warmachines, also a combat equipped lord is even capable of taking them out in combat at a pinch.

Ozorik
07-01-2009, 19:41
And theres the anvil of cheese which aims for anything it wants, picking of the biggest threat before you can do anything (like a guy on disc/slaanesh steed, or a mage).


Ah you mean that single, immobile, model that costs a minimum of 340 points and has 4 S4 attacks in melee and is fairly likely to explode or go horribly wrong. There is nothing in warhammer so gamebreaking.
As I recall you cant target lone characters either, though I could have hallucinated that part.


10 knights, MoTzeentch, Blasted Standard, Standard bearer, musician, lances
540 points.


1 flanking unit of slayers...priceless. Thats a ridiculously expensive unit while not being surivable enough to survive if you opponent is awake. Personally I would love to see this unit across the table.

bork da basher
07-01-2009, 22:11
i agree, a unit of knights of chaos shouldnt be bigger than 6. anymore is wasted potential and paying 200pts for a single rank bonus is insane, fair enough their unit strength will be 20 and thus there very likely to autobreak units on the charge but in my experience a unit of 5 chaos knights rarely fails to break a unit so it seems a bit pointless.

Ozorik
07-01-2009, 22:20
Actually a unit of 6 knights isn't that likely to break a dwarf infantry block on the charge, the odds are pretty even, they will cause slightly under 5 wounds on average (assuming HW+ shield warriors, no mark of khorne and no lances) while the dwarf block will be on +5. A frontal knight charge has yet to break even my basic warrior block at least. But then thats what combined charges are for.

Harwammer
08-01-2009, 00:01
I don't think knights aren't really designed for a frontal charge on a large, fully ranked unit.

Chaos knights are strong enough to do this against some units though. Just not dwarf blocks. Not worth the risk.

W0lf
08-01-2009, 02:06
Dwarfs are a WoC worst nightmare.

I play both and id far, far prefer to be the dwarf player in this MU. Hell i find it hard to see how the dwaf player can lose.

John Vaughan
08-01-2009, 02:22
I think that maybe the Banner of the Gods can be used here. Even if they win outrageously, both you and they stick around to dish out punishment. The catch is that Chaos is the best at dishing punishment, just dont quote me on that when stuck with the dwarven elite units. They hurt a lot too.

W0lf
08-01-2009, 03:11
The banner of the Gods eh?

Id say definatly not tbh.

Ether its in cavalry which means orgun guns fire then hit by a cannon with no LoS roll OR in foot troops and then LOL. Gyro copter + Guns vs warriors infantry = free win.

Scythe
08-01-2009, 06:53
this is why i take a sorcerer lord and 2 lvl2 sorcerers all on discs, by turn 2 there shouldnt be any warmachine threat at all. if your cafeful you can avoid the worst of the incoming fire and a few rounds of tzeentch magic will devestate any machine crews. even dwarfs natural magic resistance cant cope with 12 PD per turn. leaving your knights reasonably unmolested to crush his small units of xbows and thunderers. your hounds and horsemen take the flanks and its game over really as soon as combat is reached and thats garenteed by turn two.


That's a bit optimistic, isn't it? A dwarf army with a single runepriest with rune of balance and a spellbreaking rune generates 6 dispel dice total, plus a scroll, while you are at -1 generic dice (or the priest just takes 3 spellbreaker runes). You'll be quite unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 spells of in the first few turns against that (for a minor investment on his part; lower than 150 pts I might add). Combined with the natural hardness of Dwarves and the randomization rules, one spell does not equal one dead war machine in all cases. Another problem is: if you can see the warmachine, it can see you as well. Having a sorcerer on top of a disc float in sight of a bolt thrower might not be the smartest idea...

p3990013
08-01-2009, 07:10
Some units that I'd choose against dwarves are:

- Exalted hero (Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch, Flail, Enchanted shield, Golden eye of Tzeentch)

- 6 Knights (Tzeentch, Champion, Standard bearer, Blasted standard)

- Hellcannon

- 5 Marauder horsemen (Slaanesh, Flail)

- Warshrine (Tzeentch)

But let's face it, you have no flyers, you have almost no shooting, your magic will not do much damage (damned rune of valaya!), you have no skirmishers or units that can take out his warmachines, e.t.c. so you are always going to be playing at a disadvantage against dwarves (and against most other armies that have shooting/magic) :(

Tyranno1
08-01-2009, 09:27
Ah you mean that single, immobile, model that costs a minimum of 340 points and has 4 S4 attacks in melee and is fairly likely to explode or go horribly wrong. There is nothing in warhammer so gamebreaking.
As I recall you cant target lone characters either, though I could have hallucinated that part.

Who cares if its immobile? The dwarf player can put it anywhere he likes thanks to it seeing everything and hitting anything. Namly they are going to put it in the hardest spot to reach.

And I think it only fails on a 1 (1,2,3 if you hit it harder). So I dont think I call a 1 "fairly likely".

And it can target lone characters (I dont know about ones in units though, I dont think it can do that). But the fact that it can pick out my flyers and stop them (it only needs to do 1 wound to stop them flying), so the only hope I have of winning is instantly hit on the first of my opponents turns, and most likely killed.

So in the hands of a dwarf army, yeah I do think it is pretty cheesy that they can pick out exactly what units will reach them first and either kill them or cut thier movement, allowing them to take even more turns shooting..

Ozorik
08-01-2009, 09:35
Its immobile and utterly mince at combat, thats a pretty big drawback. So what if he can hide it, its not as if chaos doesnt have a lot of fast cavalry and fliers. Ancient powers go wrong on a 1, 2 or 3 and its ancient powers which make the anvil really useful. Given the lack of marchblockers in a Dwarf army (gyro excepted) is it really so bad that they can slow opposing movement?

Did I mention that its 340+ points?

Tyranno1
08-01-2009, 10:03
Its immobile and utterly mince at combat, thats a pretty big drawback. So what if he can hide it, its not as if chaos doesnt have a lot of fast cavalry and fliers. Ancient powers go wrong on a 1, 2 or 3 and its ancient powers which make the anvil really useful. Given the lack of marchblockers in a Dwarf army (gyro excepted) is it really so bad that they can slow opposing movement?

Did I mention that its 340+ points?

Yes it is that bad. Because for 340+ points your getting a unit that can wipe the battlefield clean of exactly what threatens you the most. Any army would pay through the nose for something like that.

The point about them hiding it is that you are never going to reach it, so who cares how **** poor it might be in combat. With your fliers instantly rendered useless, fast cavelry that will last 1 turn at best agaisnt dwarven crossbows/handguns there really isnt much you can do to stop it.

And also chaos is in severe lack of fliers, dragon,manticore and disc are the only ones left (thank you Phil Kelly -_-). The manticore is just rubbish, the disc is very venerable (is in the anvils kill range), and the dragon is expensive and will attract alot of attention to itself, and if that dies (not as difficult as it used to be, as you cannot give it a ward save) then thats more than a quarter of your army gone.

And it can kill stuff without anceint power, heros on discs and fast cavelry will get ripped apart by it.

Also, there are miners as well that can marchblock, thats two.

Ozorik
08-01-2009, 11:53
The rune of wrath and ruin can't be cast on independent characters provided that they, nor their mounts, have the large target rule. Nor can the anvil be used if any part of the model in in melee.

Exalted hero on a disc with appropriate kit= one dead anvil, or at least one neutralised anvil.

Jonathais
08-01-2009, 11:56
Play something other than Pitched Battle to force him into something he won't have prepared for

bork da basher
08-01-2009, 12:27
That's a bit optimistic, isn't it? A dwarf army with a single runepriest with rune of balance and a spellbreaking rune generates 6 dispel dice total, plus a scroll, while you are at -1 generic dice (or the priest just takes 3 spellbreaker runes). You'll be quite unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 spells of in the first few turns against that (for a minor investment on his part; lower than 150 pts I might add). Combined with the natural hardness of Dwarves and the randomization rules, one spell does not equal one dead war machine in all cases. Another problem is: if you can see the warmachine, it can see you as well. Having a sorcerer on top of a disc float in sight of a bolt thrower might not be the smartest idea.

i was speaking from experience from the recent game i had and i didnt have a great deal of trouble. he had 5 dispel dice and 2 spellbreaker runes and i still put the hurt on his machine crews, i was getting about 2/3 of my spells off. his spellbreakers were only ever used when i went to use eternal gateway, and i still managed to cast that the 2nd time with irrisistable force to gut a unit of thunderers. he was mainly using his dice to defend against flickering fire and treason of tzeentch on his hammerer unit. his dice wernt the best so maybe its not the best example but still they are capable of it.

as i said earlier its all about positioning and id managed to get down his flank where only a handful of his troops could draw a LoS to me, he didnt bother to shoot at my sorcerers because what he could throw at them wasnt going to bring them down, so he shot at my cavalry instead but luckily didnt do too much damage because of hound shields, dodgy rolling and his cannon misfiring.

Cambion Daystar
08-01-2009, 13:04
A very standard dwarf magic defense i see alot is 2 runesmiths: one with mr of spellbinding, other with mr of balance. That is 6 DD (1PD less for you) and +1 to all dispels. or replace one lord smith with a lord for an additional dispeldice. Please don't tell me that you get 2/3's of your spells of against that.

Cambion Daystar
08-01-2009, 13:06
an anvil of doom will suffer the same fate as the warmachines, also a combat equipped lord is even capable of taking them out in combat at a pinch.

Until you rush into a runelord equiped for combat that beats up your sorceror lord...

FallenAfh
08-01-2009, 13:22
How do I deal with a Dwarven Gunline with my infantry force? I just hang back and outrange his pansy cannons with my Twin Hellcannons.

Cambion Daystar
08-01-2009, 13:29
How do I deal with a Dwarven Gunline with my infantry force? I just hang back and outrange his pansy cannons with my Twin Hellcannons.

Too bad most of us don't play on tables that big. What is the range of a hellcannon nowadays?

FallenAfh
08-01-2009, 13:36
60 inches, as a normal stonethrower.

bork da basher
08-01-2009, 14:44
dwarfs can buy a two cannon or 4 bolt throwers to your single hellcannon, a war of attrition proberly isnt a good thing.

Cambion Daystar
08-01-2009, 14:46
dwarfs can buy a two cannon or 4 bolt throwers to your single hellcannon, a war of attrition proberly isnt a good thing.

These only have a 48" range.

Makarion
08-01-2009, 16:46
Figure that, a normal table around here is exactly 4' across. Unless you and your opponent are going to deploy on purpose in opposite corners, there's no way the dwarves *won't* have targets.

Tyranno1
08-01-2009, 16:48
These only have a 48" range

The dwarf caterpults though do not. Same as the hellcannon, and they can buy a hell of alot more. Aslso you would have to put those hellcannons pretty far back (off the table) to get out of range of the dwarfs completly.

W0lf
08-01-2009, 17:33
Only 48"... sorry what?

As most boards are 48" anyways what the diffrence. you only have a 24" no-mans land somehow id liek to see you hide when they set-up 12" on.

Frankly
08-01-2009, 18:06
These only have a 48" range.

lol

Yeah, I don't know if that's a strong enough to base an argument on to fight dwarves in the shooting phase.

Necromancer2
08-01-2009, 19:12
2 hellcannons is a good start. next is lots of hounds.

FallenAfh
08-01-2009, 19:20
And a Disc Rider or two.

Ozorik
09-01-2009, 00:25
Until you rush into a runelord equiped for combat that beats up your sorceror lord...

Rune lords cant be equipped for combat very well, they dont have the stats for it. An exalted champion (or even a sorcerer lord) with the aether sword has an excellent chance of killing one in a challenge.

Cambion Daystar
09-01-2009, 07:26
Rune lords cant be equipped for combat very well, they dont have the stats for it. An exalted champion (or even a sorcerer lord) with the aether sword has an excellent chance of killing one in a challenge.

Are sorceror lords that good in combat nowadays? I tought the were comparable in stats to an empire captain? How would you equip this sorc. lord?

Djekar
09-01-2009, 07:44
uh... aethersword, enchanted shield, infernal puppet? If shields aren't legal, you could throw in the Immune to Psyc, KB, and Poison armor instead... I don't know. I am not really in the habit of giving my sorc lord a big magic poking stick, not that it's a bad idea.

~Bran

Cambion Daystar
09-01-2009, 12:15
Doesn't he do like less than 1 wound /turn to the runelord on average, who then proceeds to bash his head in with a gw and combat result (maybe only by 1, but still)?

Ozorik
09-01-2009, 12:26
The exalted champ will do 1.7 wounds(ish) a turn to the runelord while the runelord will do about 0.6 (ish) in return. The odds are good that the runelord will die, if an anvil guard challenges so much the better (definately issue a challenge though). A sorc lord wil have a lower chance of winning but the odds are still in his favour.

Its entirely dependant on the runelords runes of course but given that they majority of armour runes will be pointless and that there will probably be a couple of anti-magic runes your looking at maybe 50-75 points of weapon runes, that shouldnt be too scary.

Either way if you stop the anvil for 2 turns (which is probable) the rest of your army will be knocking on the Dwarven front lines.

Cambion Daystar
09-01-2009, 12:33
The exalted champ will do 1.7 wounds(ish) a turn to the runelord while the runelord will do about 0.6 (ish) in return. The odds are good that the runelord will die, if an anvil guard challenges so much the better (definately issue a challenge though)..

I was talking about the sorceror lord. I know they're stats are good for a caster, but saying he will easily take out warmachines and/or anvil is unlikely i think.

Tyranno1
09-01-2009, 13:27
Either way if you stop the anvil for 2 turns (which is probable) the rest of your army will be knocking on the Dwarven front lines.

With what? Or have you forgotten the cannons,grudgethrowers,bolt-throwers,handguns,crossbows that you will be facing in addition to the anvil?

Face it, there are way to many threats from a dwarf gunline to beat. There arent enough combat rounds to kill them all, even if you have 3 guys on discs running around (without the anvil instnatly rendering them useless) you cant kill everything in time for your army to have enough force left to take out the dwarves.

Cambion Daystar
09-01-2009, 13:34
I too think that winning with warriors against a dwarf gunline is very very hard. Maybe too hard (as in skilled general will still need luck to make it even against a very unskilled player)

W0lf
09-01-2009, 15:48
Depends. Infantry chaos have zero chance of doing it as you wont get to combat in time to kill enough stuff.

Mounted chaos 'Can' do it, buts its not an easy MU.

Ozorik
09-01-2009, 18:53
I was talking about the sorceror lord

Why use a sorcerer lord when there are better tools for the job? Also the point isnt so much killing the anvil, its tying it up while the rest of your army does its job relatively unhindered.


With what? Or have you forgotten the cannons,grudgethrowers,bolt-throwers,handguns,crossbows that you will be facing in addition to the anvil?


The anvil cant be used if it is in melee (and you cant shoot into melee) additionally charcters can be made pretty impervious to ranged fire. This allows your army to move normally which was one of your earlier complaints. Also if the dwarf player has invested so heavily in ranged firepower then properly equipped and suitibly large units of knights will utterly shred the weak infantry blocks that they would have been able to afford. Its a hard match up certainly but WoC are far from helpless.

Once again you cant target characters with the anvil unless they, or their mount, has the large target rule. If you are going to call something cheesy at least read its rules properly.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
09-01-2009, 19:01
Who is setting up terrain? The players or a neutral party? If it's the players, then I expect the dwarf to have at least one hill in his deployment zone. Which means he can shoot right over hounds and hit knights.

Frankly
09-01-2009, 19:23
To be honest, I don't think it has to much to do with terrain and more to with bad match ups.

W0lf
09-01-2009, 21:06
Yep.

Bad match ups for WoC;

Dwarfs - see thread
Empire - VHS +gunline + cheap units
Skaven - Easy access to march block, jezzails, Pwg, 2d6 s5 etc
Daemons - everyone has issues here i guess, but Bloodthirster = auto-lose for most WoC
Dark elves - Pendant lord, Good shooting, Hydra banner cold ones, Hydras etc
Wood elves - Never catch them, they pick fights. Treemen are hard

So yer, WoC have quite a few bad Match ups. Im sure lizardmen are going to enter that list soon aswell, Lore of metal slaan + Stegs = ouch.

Cambion Daystar
09-01-2009, 21:17
Why use a sorcerer lord when there are better tools for the job? Also the point isnt so much killing the anvil, its tying it up while the rest of your army does its job relatively unhindered.


Maybe you should read a few posts earlier and see what we were talking about...

FallenAfh
10-01-2009, 00:50
Yep.

Bad match ups for WoC;

Dwarfs - see thread
Empire - VHS +gunline + cheap units
Skaven - Easy access to march block, jezzails, Pwg, 2d6 s5 etc
Daemons - everyone has issues here i guess, but Bloodthirster = auto-lose for most WoC
Dark elves - Pendant lord, Good shooting, Hydra banner cold ones, Hydras etc
Wood elves - Never catch them, they pick fights. Treemen are hard

So yer, WoC have quite a few bad Match ups. Im sure lizardmen are going to enter that list soon aswell, Lore of metal slaan + Stegs = ouch.

I think you're being a litle to negative here. I could equally come up with a list explaining how those can be good(or at least equal) match ups for WoC. :)

Dwarfs - Disc Riders. Wulfrik. Souped up anti-range Tzeentch/Nurgle Knights.
Empire - As Dwarfs. Psychology game (Plenty of fear/terror/Hellcannons etc...)
Skaven - As Dwarfs+Empire. Kholek/Shaggoths/D.Ogres.
Daemons - As with everyone else, Daemons will have an advantage right of the bat. But WoC can work around some of Daemons strengths. Plenty of ways to migate fear. Most WoC units will outfight its Daemon Equivalent. Don't need to worry as much with range. I've taken down Bloodthirsters with my Hellcannons though.
Dark Elves - I love match ups with Dark Elves. Their shootings not that all that effective. They'll eventually have to get into CC with my troops. And their toughness3,5+ save is just perfect for all the Str5 stuff in my army (Knights. Warrior with Halberds. Hellcannon templates). More often then not they'll bring along a zero magic list (thank you Mr Hotek:p), and it pleases my minimum magic army greatly.
Wood Elves - You won't catch em but neither will they do much to all your armor. (the couple of games I've played with em, its been mostly draws). Speaking from experience they don't really have much in the army to deal with a pair of hellcannons. :evilgrin:

Brimweave
10-01-2009, 01:31
You could just not play them. It sounds stupid but if the dwarf player is doing a pure gunline (i.e. no to 1 melee unit) then its not worth it really, as it will be a hell boring match.

Dwarfs aren't just only gunlines, its just loads of people forget it :D

Ultimo ninja
15-03-2009, 05:29
All I have in my list that can actually try to take out a gunline is a sorc with mot, a disc, and the sword of might.....


wow i miss furies



Why cant we have chaos harpies or something?

Angelust
15-03-2009, 07:21
If both players set up terrain, I think you have pretty good odds of avoiding a hill.

It's really starting out against your favor if you have two hills or more in the terrain choices. Usually 1 hill with a gunline army on board is about right.

There's a 50% chance you get to deploy the hill in a neutral area, like the middle of the board. Then if he places it on a table edge, you have a 50% chance of claiming that table edge by rolling first to deploy. That leaves most games with 1 hill as a 25% chance he'll get hill.

If you have 2 hills in the terrain pile, then it basically becomes 50/50, though you can still drop a hill to a flank to block some knights for a flank charge later on.

3 hills or more is just a bad choice of terrain :-p

Ewperor
17-03-2009, 15:06
Two of my friends play dwarfs and i have had a little luck with an Exalted on disc with either Armour of morslieb or the golden eye of tzeentch. Have been lucky and fielding him with the MoT, disc, Talisman of protection and sword of striking for hunting warmachines.
As people have said earlier then it is a pretty bad matchup and the only thing that i have tried that kinda worked was cavalry( and luck).
Would rather face daemons. They might destroy me but at least i get a round or two in CC before.

I was wondering if anyone have tried using the lore of slaanesh against dwarfs. Have been thinking about fielding a couple of slaanesh sorcerers and hoping for the Titilating illussions spell. If you can get it in on one of his warmachines you have saved yourself from a turn of shooting but the again dwarfs can lock up your magic.

I have a quick question about the dwarf runes too. Is it really true that the rune of spellbreaking works different than a Dispell scroll in the way that you can choose and roll dispell dice first and then use it afterwards if your dispell attempt failed? Im not sure if GW just forgot to check what they had written about Dispell scrolls or if the dwarf thingie is that much better.