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View Full Version : First New lizard list. 2000pts



blackjack
01-01-2009, 04:46
Had a long sit at the GW store today. Gave the new Lizzy list a good looking over.

Compared to the other new books since VC I have to say Lizzies look weak to me.

Salamanders have been nerfed to uslessness.

Skink skirmishers are over priced.

Cold ones did NOT go down in price and the +1 AS is not good enough (compare them point for point to WC knights and flesh hounds to see what I mean.)

Any case here is a list

24 Suarus w Spears, full command
24 Saurus w Spears, full command
10 Saurus w Spears
10 Saurus w Spears

Skink w Diadem and Scroll
Skink w Dispel staff

Scar vet w Cold one, +1 str sword, Shileld of Maming, Light Armor
Scar vet w Cold one, spear, Light Armor Shield, BSB, War Banner, Fire Fly poison.

6 Coldones
6 Coldones

3 Teradons
3 Teradons

2000pts


Not enough anti magic, no shooting to speak of. Slow slow slow blocks, Coldones that can't take on equal points in any other kind of post VC heavy cav. Teradons will get shot out of the sky instantly.

Has anyone come up with a competive list using the new book without resorting to named characters?

Staurikosaurus
01-01-2009, 05:19
Yes I have. I call it the EMP bomb.

Lord Kroak

Priest lvl 2 with Engine of the Gods and Plaque of Tepok

Priest lvl 2 with Engine of the Gods

Priest lvl 2 with Engine of the Gods

10 skirmishing skinks

10 skirmishing skinks

10 skirmishing skinks

15 power dice, 10 dispel dice, 3 unstoppable bound spells and kroak's Deliverance of Itza.
Rings in at 1995 pts

blackjack
01-01-2009, 05:27
That list is Illegal
engine is a rare and takes up a hero slot, 2 engines with skinks riders fills all your rare and heros at 2000pts.

Let me slighty rephrase. Can anyone build a legal competive list without named characters.

Staurikosaurus
01-01-2009, 05:29
No it is not an illegal list as nowhere does it state in the new lizardmen book that the Ancient Stegadon is a rare choice when taken as a mount.

Look on page 93 of the new army book. As well check page 54 & 55. Neither state that the Steg (of any type) takes up a rare (special) slot when used as a mount.

The list is legal.

Carnosaurs don't take up hero slots, slann don't use up heroes or rares and stegadons when used as mounts don't use up special or rare slots - only when used on their own do they take up a slot.

blackjack
01-01-2009, 05:39
I'll check it out.

My appologies in advance.

Xaskus
01-01-2009, 07:52
Can Kroak be used by himself? I heard some rambling at my GW that Slann need a unit to be in.

Chiungalla
01-01-2009, 07:59
@ blackjack:
You put ~ 800 points of your army in 68 saurus warriors, the slowest unit in the whole army, and then complain that your army is slow and you don't have enough points to get a decent shooting phase?

Then you state that cold ones are overpriced, and put two units in your army?

:confused:

blackjack
01-01-2009, 16:58
Skink ranks are faster, so may be a better choice but at t2 with a 6+AS I don't hold out much hope, even wtih krox in the middle.

I thought the biggest inprovment in the book was to spear saurus so I tried them out.

As far as cold ones. Well Krox got badly nerfed (-1 str...) so they may be the best of a bad set of choices.


There is NO decent shooting phase in the army book that I could see. Only super short ranged attacks from blow pipes and rasordons. With the salamander nerf there simply is nothing apart from weak low BS stegadon bows that shoots beyond 12".

My first impression is that everything in the old book that was decent got nerfed, the stuff that got better makes this army book about on par with the old one for power (minus spechial characters) which is to say it does not keep up with the current power curve of the other new books.

Chiungalla
01-01-2009, 17:15
Razordons are good ranged shooting.
Or aren't they? Which range do they have?

And maybe spear saurus warriors are a great unit.
But that doesn't mean you have to use all your points in this single type of unit.
You can easily take 2 units of medium size (maybe 14 models) and have plenty points left for other units.

If you put to many points in this slow blocks, your opponent will take care of the rest, and dance around your saurus warriors for the rest of the battle.

Playing lizardmen was never having great blocks of slow saurus warriors to win the whole battle. You need to mix forces to be successful.

Fast and cheap skinks, fast and hard hitting kroxigors and cavalry, very fast terradons and rock hard stegadons.

bored1
01-01-2009, 18:05
blackjack...have you played lizardmen before?


There is NO decent shooting phase in the army book that I could see. Only super short ranged attacks from blow pipes and rasordons. With the salamander nerf there simply is nothing apart from weak low BS stegadon bows that shoots beyond 12".

Compared to the amazing shooting that is there presently! What a nerf!


Salamanders have been nerfed to uslessness.

Do the math. They are from useless. Different from their present incarnation, but not weak either. I'd say they are closer to their RH/Chronicles build (though with much less range...<sigh>).


Skink skirmishers are over priced.

That's an interesting assertion. Most people feel they are overpriced now, I believe. My understanding is they went up a point in cost (and lost scouting). So now they're overpriced? Should they be 6.5 pts each?


Not enough anti magic, no shooting to speak of.

This is fascinating, as all we've read how dominating the anti-magic of the slann is. You're saying all those rumors are incorrect? They can't cause mage stupidity, redirect miscasts, transfer power dice to dispel dice, remove 6's rolled, etc?


Slow slow slow blocks

versus...fast and speedy blocks?


Coldones that can't take on equal points in any other kind of post VC heavy cav.

COR sucked before, will likely suck now. Stupid cavalry is always of debatable utility.


Teradons will get shot out of the sky instantly.

What has changed to make this so? Is there something new in their rules which will make them more susceptible to firepower than presently?

In

Lotl Botl
01-01-2009, 18:17
well i think razordons are actually gonna be quite good at shooting and basically equivalent to old salamanders except for the auto-hits but if they get charged they unleash 2 artillery die worth of attacks which will definetly do some damage, also liz never really had range over 12 before and i forget the rule but cant u march then shoot a flame template in combination with the extra range gained from the artillery die will actually give the sals some range
also terradons wil be able to take-off and land in woods which will give thme cover form ranged attacks
also saurus warriors with spears are gonna be beast (lots o' attacks with decent save now) and with a little back-up basically flank protection and a hammer

blackjack
01-01-2009, 23:33
blackjack...have you played lizardmen before?

No but I have played against them several times with several diffrent players so these are just my impressions.

Quote There is NO decent shooting phase in the army book that I could see. Only super short ranged attacks from blow pipes and rasordons. With the salamander nerf there simply is nothing apart from weak low BS stegadon bows that shoots beyond 12".
Compared to the amazing shooting that is there presently! What a nerf!


Salamanders used to be able to shoot 15" and auto hit. Rasordons shoot 12 and hit only 50%, this is not only a huge nerf to salamanders but to the ranged capability of Lizzies in general


Quote Salamanders have been nerfed to uslessness.
Do the math. They are from useless. Different from their present incarnation, but not weak either. I'd say they are closer to their RH/Chronicles build (though with much less range...<sigh>).

Salamanders are so random now I don't know what kind of math you want to apply, its a strait 2 4 6 8 10 misfire range to a flame template so god knows how many if any opponents you will cover with any shot. Rasordons are the only critters you can do a math compare to the old salamanders and the Rasors suck by commparison. 3" less range, 50% number of hits, 10pts more expensive, +1 str and a great stand and shoot being the only advantages.


Quote Skink skirmishers are over priced.
That's an interesting assertion. Most people feel they are overpriced now, I believe. My understanding is they went up a point in cost (and lost scouting). So now they're overpriced? Should they be 6.5 pts each?

I dont understand you here, if most people think they are overpriced now and they have gone up in price then that makes them even more over priced!


Quote Not enough anti magic, no shooting to speak of.

This is fascinating, as all we've read how dominating the anti-magic of the slann is. You're saying all those rumors are incorrect? They can't cause mage stupidity, redirect miscasts, transfer power dice to dispel dice, remove 6's rolled, etc?

For 50pts per ability, none of wich are a pimple on the ass of say a ring of hotek which costs half as much. Or an infernal puppet which works for your mages and against your opponents

Quote Slow slow slow blocks
versus...fast and speedy blocks?

I have to admit skink blocks are quite fast now, but t2
6+AS makes me doubt them, even with nerfed kroxigors imbedded.


Quote Coldones that can't take on equal points in any other kind of post VC heavy cav.
COR sucked before, will likely suck now. Stupid cavalry is always of debatable utility.

Well its good to see we agree here. My assertion was that they were not improved to the point of non sucitude. The rumors stated coldones got cheaper, this was not true.

Quote Teradons will get shot out of the sky instantly.
What has changed to make this so? Is there something new in their rules which will make them more susceptible to firepower than presently?

No Teradons where always vulnerable this way.


My bottom line is not that the new army book sucks compared to the old one, it may be slightly stronger or a wash between improved units and nerfed units (not counting named characters). However in the world of ramped up power of other army books this one does not seem to me to be keeping pace. VC, Daemons, DE and WC will not have to lose any sleep over the lizzies.

Khaos
02-01-2009, 09:03
quick question blackjack, are salamanders move or shoot or can they try burning things on the move?

Griffin
02-01-2009, 09:32
Do people actaully have the Armybook already ? I was under the impression it only came out in February ? If so shouldn't we wait before making army lists built on possibly faulty rumours.

Chiungalla
02-01-2009, 13:30
@ blackjack:
That GW does remove the autohits from this army list as well is no surprise at all. And it's good, because autohits are a stupid nobrainer thing, and salamanders used to be by far to good.

But Razordons are not that much worse.
Okay, they don't shoot so far.
They don't hit that much.

But they have higher strengh.
And they can stand and shoot.
And accordings to the rumours they are not 10 points more expensive, but 7 points cheaper.

Nearly no one will charge razordons, even cavalry with 2+ armor save can not attack razordons. And this more then makes up for the lost 3 inches, since you don't have to act so carefull with them.

Malorian
02-01-2009, 14:39
I never really liked any of my 2000 lists from the current book. It wasn't until 3000 that I found I had all the elements I needed to make the list work. They are kind of like high elves in that they are an elite army.

All I know is whatever rumor have been posted but my understanding of the new book is that other than losing the extra DD from tepok that the list got better.

Cheaper and better saurus, cheaper slann, better temple guard... I don't even know if salamanders are all that much worse. I see them moving up the flanks and completely smoking blocks. The scatter is random, but those templates can cover a lot of models. When you consider that that last ones got an average of 5 hits, this isn't so hard to get with the new ones. (I have no idea of cost/slot/size changes.)

I was always a fan of saurus cav before, and with the banner they were outright mean. Now they are better and their banner isn't all that much worse. The problem with comparing them to other knights is that most knights are anti-elite while saurus cav are anti-troop. With all of their attacks and cold blooded they excel at wiping out blocks of weak troops, and even if they don't break them or even lose they most likely aren't going anywhere and hitting almost as hard in following turns as well.

When I get a chance to go through the new book I'll see what 2000 list I can come up with, but I'm sure that just like the current version, I'll be more happy with the possible 3000 lists.

blackjack
02-01-2009, 17:51
+1The view only copies of the army books are available at my GW store I got to look it over for over an hour, these are not rumors everyone can look at the book.


Rasordons and Sallies are now 10pts more expensive than Sallies used to be.

The single biggest improvement is Saurus spears, which got 2pts cheaper, +1AS with no need for a spawning, and the back rank can now use 2 attacks as well as the front.

Teradons got alot of new abilities.

Slann are so radically diffrent its hard to say if they are better or not.

Krox got nerfed.
Sallies got nerfed.

Engine of the gods looks cool but I am unclear if they take a rare and a hero slot or not. I seem to think they do take both.

Carnasours got better but 4 attacks at ws 3 means they wont acomplish much.

Scarvets got +1t but now cant take spawnings (because spawnings dont exist)

charm of the jag got nerfed (from unstoppable movmeing increase to a lame bound item which eveyone anyonne can dispell)

Basicly the army book is a wash, the best stuff got nerfed, the stuff no one used got better. Not a bad book if it was not for the fact that the last 4 books to come out have been on a power ramp.

Chiungalla
02-01-2009, 18:34
Rasordons and Sallies are now 10pts more expensive than Sallies used to be.

Are you sure you remember the old point cost of sallies right?
No offense, but 10 points more then now sound very very much.

Malorian
02-01-2009, 19:01
For the scar vets keep in mind that they lost spawnings but that they got a better save for free. Plus the jaguar charm of old is gone but now you can take that horned one which gives you the same movement, a better save, and an extra attack.

(If the rumors are true)

Chain
02-01-2009, 20:34
blackjack would you prefeer the old 5'th ed Salamanders then?

Range 24' artillery dices risking misfire with 4 handlers, using the small template S 4 no armor save allowed?(can't remember if magic armor was allowed)

Oenghus
02-01-2009, 21:12
For the scar vets keep in mind that they lost spawnings but that they got a better save for free. Plus the jaguar charm of old is gone but now you can take that horned one which gives you the same movement, a better save, and an extra attack.

(If the rumors are true)

And being able to fly a saurus hero out of combat ain't terrible either.

On the whole, I think the new book's going to be fun to play with.

bored1
02-01-2009, 23:12
On shooting...they were nearly broken before. So is it surprising that their replacement, razors, got modified to be more inline with similar units now (flamers, hellblaster, etc)? Consider razors as sallies, and while they got nerfed, it's not anything outside of what's normal with the new releases.

On sallies specifically, use a d6 instead of the artillery (as it is just a d6 with different values assigned). So over a given set of turns, you can expect roughly the same number of each value to show up. Over 12 shooting phases where they fire, you can expect that you'll get 2 turns of each value (though really, we should be using way more turns...but for ease of math). So throw out 2 turns as misfires. The other turns will give you two of each value. I think it works out that on turns they don't misfire, sallies will give you 6-8". Depending on whether they can move & fire, and/or march & fire, this will give you the basis for their range (+ length of template).

On skinks, I mistyped...most feel they are underpriced currently. 6 pts for double tapping, poisoned 12" range as a core was too good.


For 50pts per ability, none of wich are a pimple on the ass of say a ring of hotek which costs half as much. Or an infernal puppet which works for your mages and against your opponents

Actually, if for 50 pts you can get the ability to disregard all 6's a given mage casts with...that's pretty amazing. Consider that a VC player will chuck 1 die at Invocation. It will successfully cast 66% of the time (4/6 possibilities). Now take one of those away, down to 50% success rate, and easier to dispel to boot. Meanwhile, ring and puppet will never have any impact on this. And while puppet is good, it really needs Black Tongue to be amazing (which is 85 pts), otherwise it is highly reliant on randomness. And for preventing miscasts on your own mages, the redirect miscast item and re-roll miscast ability of the slann aren't too shabby either. I'm not saying these are the be all end all, but I don't think anti-magic gets too much stronger than the lizards, going on rumors.

Now I will say I'm surprised by a 10 pt price hike, if true.


Plus the jaguar charm of old is gone but now you can take that horned one which gives you the same movement, a better save, and an extra attack

Actually 2" less movement (when marching/charging, 1" of M value). And the item needed changing. There was never a reason to not take it.


However in the world of ramped up power of other army books this one does not seem to me to be keeping pace. VC, Daemons, DE and WC will not have to lose any sleep over the lizzies.

It may not completely keep pace, but I don't think it's too far below either. And I hope you're not putting WoC up there with any of those other lists. WoC is a notch above O&G and dwarfs.

Lord Dan
02-01-2009, 23:43
blackjack would you prefeer the old 5'th ed Salamanders then?

Range 24' artillery dices risking misfire with 4 handlers, using the small template S 4 no armor save allowed?(can't remember if magic armor was allowed)

That actually sounds completely insane. Yeah, I'd prefer that.

tehhelios
02-01-2009, 23:44
Pretty much what they did to the VC then, nerf some of the really good stuff, but compensate with making some new stuff better.

No WAy you say? well my old army became downright unplayable with the new book, but ofc there are now other options, probably will be same with lizzies.

Defender of Ulthuan
03-01-2009, 16:13
How many stegadons can you take in 2k games... don't spare me the details; I don't want to cry that hard.

Lord Dan
03-01-2009, 23:56
Apparently 4, discounting mounts? Then the difference between engine of the gods and stegadon comes in...

The honest answer is that we don't know. We just keep getting speculation from people who have glanced at the book and think they remember better. We'll just have to wait another couple of weeks.

Lotl Botl
04-01-2009, 00:01
well 2 Ancinet stegs (), 4 Stegs (), 2x 10 ranked skinks (), leaving 410 pts for Lords and Hero's (which can inclde more steg mwahahahah)
So about 6 Stegs + a little more

bored1
04-01-2009, 01:30
actually the latest rumors imply 10 (4 hero, 4 special, 2 rare).

What is that? 2500 pts minimum?

Lotl Botl
04-01-2009, 03:21
im still a little confused with the rules on this and when i tried to get them clarified people started to build the cross and hoist me up
but anyway does the EofG take up an additional hero choice and a normal AS as a mount doesn't
or do you need to purchase a AS from rare the replace crew
So Basically is it:
Is a Priest on a EotG: 2 Hero choices, 1 Hero Choice, or 1 Hero Chocie and 1 Rare Choice
and
Is a chief on a AS: 2 Hero choices, 1 Hero Choice, or 1 Hero Choice and 1 Rare Choice