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Ardansk
02-01-2009, 15:19
Been deciding on what virtue/items to give my bretonnian lord I was thinking of putting him on a pegasus and giving him the virtue of the impetuos knight (which gives +d6 to the first charge he declares)

I was wondering whether this counts for a unit of pegasus knights as they are mounted but also fliers? so it'd be 20 inch fly charge + d6?

could be useful although it's quite alot for 35pts....

Artinam
02-01-2009, 15:33
Well it works for the Lord on the Pegasus, so he can potentionally charge 26 inch.

It won't work for the Pegasus Knights, since no character can ever join a unit of fliers even when he can fly. And a model on a Flying mount can't join units. So a no go.

Ardansk
02-01-2009, 18:52
ah mutter scrap that idea then could have been a bit disgusting having him backed up by 5 pegasus knights thankies :)

Neckutter
02-01-2009, 20:32
i think the best kit for a bret lord on flying monster is this:

bret lord
shield
lance of always hit
armor of reroll 1s to wound
virtue of "you dont outnumber me!"
hipogriff

Lord Dan
03-01-2009, 02:54
I think mounting a Bretonnian lord on a hippogryph is a sure way of handing some points to your opponent.

If a monsterous mount can get dropped by bowfire, it's not worth taking.

Neckutter
03-01-2009, 02:58
a hippogriph is T5?
it has never been dropped with bowfire. ratling guns-yes, bowfire and RBT fire-no.

ok im not really paying attention. are you talking about pegusus mounts?

Lord Dan
03-01-2009, 03:11
The OP was talking about Pegasus mounts. I was referring to your Hippogryph, which can most certainly be dropped by bowfire.

20 bowmen fire needing 4's to hit. +1 for being a large target means they need 3's, so about 14 hit. Randomise, and about 10 are hitting big momma. I'd reckon 2 of those wound, though you'd technically be right in saying only 1 would "mathematically" wound.

Since you brought it up, RxB are even better. 20 RxBs means 40 shots, needing 4's to hit, 3's after modifiers. 27 hit, randomise, 18 hit the beastie. That's a dead on 3 wounds, with completely average rolling. So what happens if he rolls well? 17 hits isn't something I want to play around with bringing nothing but a 6+ ward to the table. I suppose I've seen far too many people roll eigth "6's" out of 10 dice. The big issue is that even if he bowmen don't kill it, they're probably wounding it enough for some hero to finish off with a swordstroke or two.

Giants have the same "look I have no armor save, shoot at me and see if you roll 6's to wound" issue. I dropped two giants in one game from a slew of gnoblar sharp stuff rolls. More importantly, all of this risk aside, the hippogryph isn't even that good for it's points.

I find it to be a huge waste of points that could otherwise be used on some nice, reliable peasants. :P

Neckutter
03-01-2009, 03:30
The OP was talking about Pegasus mounts. I was referring to your Hippogryph, which can most certainly be dropped by bowfire.

20 bowmen fire needing 4's to hit. +1 for being a large target means they need 3's, so about 14 hit. Randomise, and about 10 are hitting big momma. I'd reckon 2 of those wound, though you'd technically be right in saying only 1 would "mathematically" wound.

Since you brought it up, RxB are even better. 20 RxBs means 40 shots, needing 4's to hit, 3's after modifiers. 27 hit, randomise, 18 hit the beastie. That's a dead on 3 wounds, with completely average rolling. So what happens if he rolls well? 17 hits isn't something I want to play around with bringing nothing but a 6+ ward to the table. I suppose I've seen far too many people roll eigth "6's" out of 10 dice. The big issue is that even if he bowmen don't kill it, they're probably wounding it enough for some hero to finish off with a swordstroke or two.

Giants have the same "look I have no armor save, shoot at me and see if you roll 6's to wound" issue. I dropped two giants in one game from a slew of gnoblar sharp stuff rolls. More importantly, all of this risk aside, the hippogryph isn't even that good for it's points.

I find it to be a huge waste of points that could otherwise be used on some nice, reliable peasants. :P

RxBs dont suffer the -1 to hit for multiple shots?

and hippogriphs have 4 wounds.

and a hippogriph is never just sitting in short range of any bowfire except for skirmishers. so realistically your lookin at 4s to hit with anything and 5s to hit(-1 for repeat shots?) with RxBs.

and besides the hippogriph dying to skarbrand(he made me frenzy?? wtf.. and i had to charge him), and dying to 2 ratling guns shooting it.. it usually survives.

Bretonnian Lord
03-01-2009, 03:35
I think in general, Bretonnian Lords are better off riding their trust Warhorses rather than a flying monster. While nice, both Royal Pegasi and Hippogryphs are magnets for any and all shooting the enemy has. The Royal Pegasus is especially prone to being shot and the Hippogryph has only marginally more defense for 4 times the points. Only take the Lord on a flying monster if you know for certain what his role on it will be (i.e. RAF army = Lord on Royal Pegasus, Hippogryphs come in handy in games around 3000 pts or higher or as a terror causer against a low LD army).

Some good combos for a Lord on a Horse:
-Cuirass of Fortune
-Virtue of Knightly Temper
-Lance, shield

Fairly cheap and very useful. Potentially 8 strength 6 attacks, this Lord alone is almost guaranteed to kill at least 3 or 4 enemy models on the charge, which racks up some serious combat resolution when combined with a unit of Knights of the Realm. Remember, breaking the enemy on the charge is vital to Bretonnians.

If you think that a flying monster will serve well, then Neckutter gave a nice and effective combo for a Bretonnian Lord on Hippogryph, although you might want to swap out the Lance of the Blessed + Cuirass of Fortune for the Armor of Midsummer Sun (-1 to hit rider and mount) and another nice magic weapon. This will improve the survivability of the Hippogryph while retaining most of its killyness.

Remember that the Grail Shield's 4+ ward save does not extend to the mount. So don't depend on the Lady to keep the Lord's Pegasus/Hippogryph alive.

Neckutter
03-01-2009, 03:39
I think in general, Bretonnian Lords are better off riding their trust Warhorses rather than a flying monster. While nice, both Royal Pegasi and Hippogryphs are magnets for any and all shooting the enemy has. The Royal Pegasus is especially prone to being shot and the Hippogryph has only marginally more defense for 4 times the points. Only take the Lord on a flying monster if you know for certain what his role on it will be (i.e. RAF army = Lord on Royal Pegasus, Hippogryphs come in handy in games around 3000 pts or higher or as a terror causer against a low LD army).

Some good combos for a Lord on a Horse:
-Cuirass of Fortune
-Virtue of Knightly Temper
-Lance, shield

Fairly cheap and very useful. Potentially 8 strength 6 attacks, this Lord alone is almost guaranteed to kill at least 3 or 4 enemy models on the charge, which racks up some serious combat resolution when combined with a unit of Knights of the Realm. Remember, breaking the enemy on the charge is vital to Bretonnians.

If you think that a flying monster will serve well, then Neckutter gave a nice and effective combo for a Bretonnian Lord on Hippogryph, although you might want to swap out the Lance of the Blessed + Cuirass of Fortune for the Armor of Midsummer Sun (-1 to hit rider and mount) and another nice magic weapon. This will improve the survivability of the Hippogryph while retaining most of its killyness.

Remember that the Grail Shield's 4+ ward save does not extend to the mount. So don't depend on the Lady to keep the Lord's Pegasus/Hippogryph alive.

grail shield?
you mean the ward save from the blessing of the lady? i thought the ward save DID get extended to the mount, because the bret book says "the model" in it. i dont have my bret book at this house, so blah.

Lord Dan
03-01-2009, 03:40
RxBs dont suffer the -1 to hit for multiple shots?

and hippogriphs have 4 wounds.

and a hippogriph is never just sitting in short range of any bowfire except for skirmishers. so realistically your lookin at 4s to hit with anything and 5s to hit(-1 for repeat shots?) with RxBs.

and besides the hippogriph dying to skarbrand(he made me frenzy?? wtf.. and i had to charge him), and dying to 2 ratling guns shooting it.. it usually survives.

Of course they do. BS4 is 3's to hit, -1 for x2 shots, +1 for large target.

Long range simply prolongs the inevitable. The argument is sort of a extreme circumsance, since bowmen would be backed up by trebuchets or cannons and RxB's by bolt throwers.

My main point wasn't how likely the situation was, it was more just to prove how otherwise insignificant units can take down a monster with no real save. T5 is just not to be relied on.

EDIT: Bret lord was referring to the 4+ save granted by the grail shield. The ward save granted by the blessing does extend to the model's mount, however the recent FAQ specifies that the 4+ save from the grail shield does not.

Neckutter
03-01-2009, 03:59
so youre saying if i sit in front of 10 RxBs i might get wounded. thanks for the tactical knowledge :P

but even in your extreme case of 3 wounds, i should statistically save 1, so i take 2 wounds while sitting out in the open. and meanwhile i survive it and get to charge something juicy that makes most of my points back. at any rate, archers shouldnt get a clear shot at the hippo at all.

the only peasants i like are my grail relic peasants, and my 42 bretonnian skirmishing archers. when they do something cool i get to shout "everyone feasts on pigs tonight!"

man, im jonesing for a game of bretonnians all of a sudden.

oh and as far as "keeping the hippo more survivable" it isnt the point of more survivable. i want him to be a beast in HtH.

Surgency
03-01-2009, 04:08
What he's saying is that taking a Lord on a pegasus or Hippogryph is not a good idea in general. it becomes a magnet for ALL enemy shooting, including from war machines, since it's the "obvious" target. A lot like giants, Chaos Knights, and anything else big and pointy. The points are better spent on a lord on a horse, in a unit of knights where he can be better protected. I tend to agree, actually. The one time I took a lord on a pegasus, my opponent devoted all his fire to it. Killed it the first turn. I tried the King on a Hippogryph, similar thing happened. In fact, anytime I tried something with my brets that made the lord stand out from the knights, they attracted an inordinate amount of fire, and didn't really survive long enough to make an impact.

Unfortunately (or maybe its a good thing...) Brets didn't fall into the power creep that is taking place. They don't have any big nasty "ded'killy" things that can be set out there, weather a few turns of danger, and proceed to eliminate enemies single-handedly...

Bretonnian Lord
03-01-2009, 04:09
Close combat ability doesn't matter if you can't survive long enough to get there ;)

Neckutter
03-01-2009, 04:21
well i wholeheartedly disagree with all of you then. :)

i use him and he does great things. :P

hey surgency what you doin this weekend? i see youre from sierra vista.

Surgency
03-01-2009, 14:09
I just noticed you're from Tucson. I'm playing the Hats games Apoc battle. I'll be the guy with Deathwing, if you're there :)

Neckutter
03-01-2009, 16:23
apocalyse today? ill swing by after lunch and say whats' up. :)

Asurasan
03-01-2009, 17:45
Not to play the Devils advocate here, but I've played flying lords in my high elves many of times and only once did I ever see the mount killed out from under me(flamers stand and shoot when I didn't realize they could do that... sad panda). If you take a lord and run it up the guts of your enemy army and expect him to live, that is a tactical error.

First thing for units of non skirmished archers you should deploy out of their arc 75% of the time, your movement is more than enough still be useful anywhere on the board. That should negate most fire you would suffer in most situations.

Second important thing for a flying hero/lord should be deploying your lord behind any terrain to keep war machine shots off of him for atleast one turn. Fly over it on your turn(because you are probably going to pray as brets).

Third thing, if you do for some reason have to deploy on the line(trying to run down a gunline), deploy an inch off the line! Dwarves, empire, tomb kings, magic missiles are looking at 24 inch range on guns/multishot war machines and a majority of the magic missiles in the game and for god sakes multi-charge units with your other units.

Cannons are going to hurt if they hit you, just like they will hurt if they hit your units(hell, might even snipe your lord out of a unit if your dice fail you, 1's happen!). Try to be behind cover so you aren't a valid target for the first round of shooting, this is important. But a dragon can get killed by a cannon shot and people still seem to play them in all their 750+ point lord/hero majesty!

Also, don't expect them to win the fight on their own. Yes, they are comparable in cost to some ranked up infantry units that they don't stand much of a chance of beating. But you are probably not going to beat a unit of 25 empire swordsmen by yourself(you might terror them off though) but I promise you will beat them with combined effort from your other units. As a flier you have unparalled options for flank/rear charges and the range to be just about wherever you need to be after the 2nd turn and for the rest of the game. Yes, the Hippo is a large target, but that large target also allows him to have a higher Line of Sight, you can easily charge over stuff(even other units). This advantage should be pushed late in the game if you have a unit stuck grinding on some ranked infantry. Smash them! I'm sure losing your rank bonus and probably 4-5 men are going to seriously ruin that units chances of sticking around.

Brets are my new army, and I don't actually have the lord on hippo or the peg hero/lord, but with my elves I have dragons/griffons/eagles and I've put heroes on top of each with success against dwarves/empire/magic VC/Tomb Kings/Tzeentchy Chaos. So I've seen a fair ammount of 'pewpew' come their way, and so far the only thing I ever lost was a Sun Dragon to an organ gun(didn't fry enough of them) and a Noble on a Eagle to flamers.

As Brets, it seems like if he is going to be a magnet for all my enemy shooting he might damn well be points well spent. Intact lances seem pretty keen to me, most of the time I don't need the lord to win combat with them when they hit. You also have the advantage that your units hit pretty damn hard on the charge. Stop and kill a bolt thrower or a cannon with your lord on turn two, it certainly won't hurt your odds of winning.

To be fair, I would probably skip out on making the lord on hippo/peg my general to avoid the chance of losing VP's for him. Also if they shoot at him they have probably left my Peg knights alone and I will probably mop up some warmachines in turn 2.

If a lord on monster isn't you bag, then you certainly don't have to take them but if you are willing to try to try to not throw them away and play on a board that at least has the proper amount of terrain in place he should be able to see combat.(Turn 2 on a flier isn't unrealistic)

Now I realize this thread isn't actually about the validity of a lord on a flier, but I've seen quite a few people just say "Gunna get shawt and dye!" so I thought I would chime in with what I think is probably common sense for using one of these characters.

-whew, I'm done now.

ehlijen
03-01-2009, 23:30
Things to keep in mind when making a flyer lord:

Consider the virtue of the Ideal:
a) he can't be the general anymore, which is good since he will be distant from the center of the army anyway (also won't loose 100vp on death)
b) nice stat boosts
c) the ld penalty won't matter if he's off on his own killing stuff

You'll also want either the armour of -1 to hit, the armour of regen or the grail shield. Each has its own advantages against certain threats, but some good protection is required.

Lord Dan
03-01-2009, 23:36
My argument wasn't based on the condition that you suicide-charge your general up the center of the field. In order to charge with a model, you need to first be exposed to at least one round of shooting before you make that charge. If you're playing against a half-decent opponent, they're going to be able to shoot at you with something no matter where you place him.

And then, even if you make it into combat and (hopefully) win combat, you then overrun and have the high potential of being stranded in the open for another turn. That's simply not reliable enough for me.

I'm not a fan of one model having the capability of wrecking whole units. It's less of a anti-herohammer issue (though I am quite anti herohammer) and more along the lines of the fact that I'll more likely throw him into combat unsupported, and more likely throw him away with poor dice rolling.

It's a curse.

Neckutter
04-01-2009, 04:07
i had a game in a tournament with a skaven player. it was a mostly shooty army but still had 4 units of 25 ranked up skaven. it wiped out ALL 3 of my 9man units of knights by his turn 2. my lord and his 4 pegasus knights and my 35 peasant archers then crushed what remained of his army. oh, and my BSB survived with only 1 wound on him. massacre for me!


i did what asuran said. the skaven made a virtual "tunnel" of forest up the middle, so i skirted around my left side, and crushed his whole army, because he couldnt bring his guns to bear on me. plus he was having too much fun blowing the hell outta my knights. and as far as winning combat, my bret lord ALWAYS wins combat when he charges. as long as he isnt fighting another lord he always kicks faces in. think about it. he has 4 attacks, they auto hit, and wound on 2s, with a reroll. then if my hippo does ONE wound(4 attacks, hits on 4s, wounds on 3s or 2s), i win combat vs 20 man unit.(they dont count outnumbering me)

regardless of how you think an army should fare, seeing it in action is a different story. its like watching TV and saying "i can do that, thats easy"


EDIT: HOLY COW EHLIJEN!!! i love the conversion!!!!

Lord Dan
04-01-2009, 15:49
That's your choice. I was explaining why I don't take the hippogryph, not trying to scare the world into not. Nice moves on the skaven army, though.

Anyway, I'd take two units of 20 M@A over a dumb bird any day of the week.

Neckutter
05-01-2009, 02:56
technically its a bird/horse

Lord Dan
05-01-2009, 19:22
Bird/ horse/ lion, if I'm not mistaken?

Condottiere
05-01-2009, 19:42
Hippogriff? Horse, eagle, snake? Lion would be Griffon.

Mr_Rose
05-01-2009, 19:47
Bird/ horse/ lion, if I'm not mistaken?
Nay lad, Hippogryphs are simple horse-eagles.

Lord Dan
06-01-2009, 00:58
Ahh, griffon. I knew I was off somewhere there.

Neckutter
06-01-2009, 06:34
Nay lad, Hippogryphs are simple horse-eagles.

MR rose, whats in a name? that which we call a bird, would fly as fast?
shakespeare FTW!!!


its a bird/horse!!!
or an eagle/mare if you want to be specific.