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the blind knight
02-01-2009, 20:00
Having recently finished my Tau army,I hace started Deamonhunters as the second one.

Now,the one thing that drew me most to Daemonhunters,except Grey Knights,
was the ability to have allies,or in my case the Imperial Guard.

Imperial Guard,have always been a personal favourite of mine.I like most people,always cheer for the underdog.

But enough of my rambelings,I have questions:

1)Is there any fluff on the Cadian 11th?

2)What happenes when 99% of a regiment is destroyed.I dont mean severe casulties,but when there is literally a platoon or two left?

3)Would the Grey Knights,allow Stormtroopers to attach themselves permanently to a small Knights warband?

4)Do Grey Knights travel to places,like Space Hulk or such,where normal humans cant survive?


The reason why I ask these questions is that,like my last army,fluff is a large part of the building,playing and painting process.

The fluff,at this point,goes like this:


After one of the most devastating Daemonic incursion of the Cadian sector,17complete regiments were destroyed.The only survivers were the 33 Cadian Armored Regiment which emerged from the battle relativly unscathed,two platons from the Cadina 11th lead by a Stormtroopers squad,and a Grey Knights warband.

As the members of the 11th proved themselves against the arch enemy,and the remaining soliders were to small to be any addition to another regiment,the Grey Knigths recruited the soliders to support them on their missions.


Now for the army:

The Grey Knights warband consist of a Brother Captain,3 Terminators,6 Grey Knights and a Drednought.This,I belive,is probablly the size that a Gray Knight warband operate at.

The Imperial part consist of a Inqusitioral Stormtroppers squad,and two inducted Armored fist squads.

The last part of the army feathers a Inqusitior with his retinue and a Caledius assasin.


The colour scheme will be standard.The Grey Knight will bear their silver armor,and the Imperial Guard their green/brown uniform,with an exception.

Every gaurdsmen model,will have his right shoulder pad painted black,with an 11 painted in blood,as a memory to their regiment.



So,is it any good?

P.S:expect moddeling log soon.

Lexington
02-01-2009, 21:40
Can't speak to your first two questions, really, but as to the latter two...


3)Would the Grey Knights,allow Stormtroopers to attach themselves permanently to a small Knights warband?
The Grey Knights don't really operate in freely-moving "warbands." Squads of Grey Knights are deployed as called for by Inquisitors from the Ordo Malleus, or other signifigant Imperial organizations (ie. the First War for Armageddon, where Logan Grimnar called for their aid), and then return to Titan, to await new orders.

It seems entirely feasable, however, for an Inquisitor to be impressed by the bravery and dedication of a regiment who was mostly wiped out, and subsequently induct the few survivors into the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, or simply keep them around as a sort of personal entourage/fighting force. It's not exactly standard protocol, but there's nothing stopping it from happening.


4)Do Grey Knights travel to places,like Space Hulk or such,where normal humans cant survive?
Sure, they'll go anywhere. Both Power and Terminator armor are able to operate in a vaccum or in environments that would normally be deadly to humans.

While I like the general idea behind your background (ie. the hardened survivors of a daemonic incursion plus elements from the Ordo Malleus), there aren't, as said earlier, "warbands" of Grey Knights. The Grey Knights don't operate independantly, and are only called in when a Daemonic incursion is happening, or imminent, and, afterwards, are sent back to Titan. Even an agent of the Ordo Malleus is unlikely to requisition the aid of the Grey Knights more than a handful of times in their career.

I'd keep with your basic ideas, though, and read up as much as you can on the Inquisiton, and the way it operates. There are numerous sources, both on and offline, that can help you. Probably the best place to start would be the Lexicanum (http://www.lexicanum.com). Afterwards, come back to your original background, and bring it in line with what's established. You've got a great starting point - it's just the details that need to be fiddled with.

Good luck with your venture! :)

Plebian
02-01-2009, 21:44
1. NTIKO
2. They would be folded into another decimated regiment(see Cain books)
3&4. See Above

Allen
03-01-2009, 10:00
1)Is there any fluff on the Cadian 11th?

I can't remember any official reference to a cadian "11th".
It seems it's an open slot for personal fluff.



2)What happenes when 99% of a regiment is destroyed.I dont mean severe casulties,but when there is literally a platoon or two left?


The regiment is disbanded, and another one will be founded on their home planet. It's not compulsory that the new regiment will be named as (in this case) the 11th, since it's open to the Administratum to assign the progressive numbers.

The survivors could face several situations:

1) they're attached to another regiment
2) they're sent to their home planet to help training the new regiment and then incorporated in it
3) they're sent to their home planet to help training the several regiments raised there
4) they're sent in one of the inhabited planets they proteced/reclaimed, back to civilian life
5) they're sent in one of the newly colonized planets, back to civilian life

Basically there's no official fluff about those situations.Think at something realistic and suitably cool and use that. We're speaking of cadians, so I suspect that the best options are 1-3.



3)Would the Grey Knights,allow Stormtroopers to attach themselves permanently to a small Knights warband?

No.
Normal space marines are pretty snobbish with unagumented humans. Grey Knights are even more snobbish than the average marine: they are called in when someone (read: potentially every other human in the galaxy except them) goes too far and awakens forbidden powers.



4)Do Grey Knights travel to places,like Space Hulk or such,where normal humans cant survive?

Space Hulks are not so bad, you know. Sometimes they're empty, sometimes they're full of nasty things...sometimes even Guard regiments or Ad Mech personnel "clear" them, Space Hulks are not reserved playgrounds for SM first companies.

However, being specialized troops, Grey Knights will travel to a certain place (planet, asteroid, space station, space hulk, whatever) only if they detect a warp presence that justify their presence. In the fluff the GK are summoned only when the danger of warp taint is unbelievable great.




After one of the most devastating Daemonic incursion of the Cadian sector,17complete regiments were destroyed.The only survivers were the 33 Cadian Armored Regiment which emerged from the battle relativly unscathed,two platons from the Cadina 11th lead by a Stormtroopers squad,and a Grey Knights warband.

As the members of the 11th proved themselves against the arch enemy,and the remaining soliders were to small to be any addition to another regiment,the Grey Knigths recruited the soliders to support them on their missions

Errm, that could work for a temporary mission.
Grey Knights does not work alone, they're the militant chamber of the Inquisition...more specifically, of the Ordo Malleus. This means that GK squads are under the command of a (very, very) senior Inquisitor...they do not "recruit" people to form a mixed force. If the Inquisitor in command think it's good having some more firepower he will just temporarily commandeer one or more Guard regiments.

GK, even more than normal SM, are not suited for prolonged warfare. They're over-specialized shock troops: they arrive, drop/teleport, slay, debrief and then return to Titan in the Segmentum Solar.

Cherubael
03-01-2009, 10:25
Like others have said Grey Knights are rarely dispatched on prolonged missions, usually its go kill the gribbly-daemon-thing-popping-out-of-that-guys-head and then go home for a nice few weeks of prayer.

The other thing to consider is that allying the survivors to an Ordo Malleus inquisitor may not be the best option if you are trying to develop personal fluff and character for the survivors of the Cadian 11th as Imperial forces that encounter Daemons directly are routinely Mind wiped. So after a mission the survivors would be empty husks of who they once were, only remembering their combat skills and not much else. Chances are they would be asking each other why they had a black shoulder pad with 11 written on it.

Lothlanathorian
03-01-2009, 12:12
Unless the =][= in question kept them alive and healthy (see: not mindwiped) and sequestered on his personal ship to use as his own force when needed. This is totally possible. I don't think it would be a low level =][= doing this as it would need to be someone with some pull to do it and have the resources for the upkeep needed.

So, yeah, what Lexington said.

Allen
03-01-2009, 12:44
Like others have said Grey Knights are rarely dispatched on prolonged missions, usually its go kill the gribbly-daemon-thing-popping-out-of-that-guys-head and then go home for a nice few weeks of prayer.

The other thing to consider is that allying the survivors to an Ordo Malleus inquisitor may not be the best option if you are trying to develop personal fluff and character for the survivors of the Cadian 11th as Imperial forces that encounter Daemons directly are routinely Mind wiped. So after a mission the survivors would be empty husks of who they once were, only remembering their combat skills and not much else. Chances are they would be asking each other why they had a black shoulder pad with 11 written on it.


That's outdated material.
Recent fluff (army books, novels, small bits of background) clearly describes imperial forces of any kind and shape fighting with daemons and traitor marines with only a routine inspection of the Inquisition to detect possible taints at the end of the operations.

No more silly rogue-trader era mind wiping or mass-executions, thanks to Sigmar...errr, I mean, thanks to the Emperor.

the blind knight
03-01-2009, 13:40
That's outdated material.
Recent fluff (army books, novels, small bits of background) clearly describes imperial forces of any kind and shape fighting with daemons and traitor marines with only a routine inspection of the Inquisition to detect possible taints at the end of the operations.

No more silly rogue-trader era mind wiping or mass-executions, thanks to Sigmar...errr, I mean, thanks to the Emperor.


Woho good news for me.

So after all you said I have new questions and fluff development:

1)You mencioned that Grey Knights are snobish bastards.I like it:p
But,would they use Stormtroppers and other Imperial Guard as support units,for taking objectives and general cannon folder?

2)How much influnce does a senior Inqusitor have over the Grey Knights.I mean,could he take command of a small band of Knight(members already mencioned before) for a longer period of time,lets say a could of years.

3)What do the Grey Knights think of the Inqusitior Assasins,and vise versa?


So after your comments,here is the revised fluff(really short version):

After one of......(bla,bla this is the same).After the battle a senior Inqusitior recruited the members of the Cadian 11th into his personal retinue,which at the time consisted of his bodyguards and a Callidus assasin.

Also part of the retinue was a semi-constant unit of Grey Knights.The Inqusitior leading the force was in good standing with the Grey Knights chapter.Every time he came up against a daemon threat,the Knights sent a team in respnse.

Over the years,the Inqusitor created a strong bond with one particular Brother Captain (please no Brokeback Mountain comments:p) and now the Brother Captain and his team spend most of the time fighting against the arch enemy.

So,is it improving or....

Exterminatus
03-01-2009, 14:32
SOunds like brokeback mountain :D

Seriously, an inquisitor has unlimited powers and could easily 'confiscate' an IG regiment. I would have no problem with your fluff, it's different and I like it!

Allen
03-01-2009, 16:51
So after all you said I have new questions and fluff development:

1)You mencioned that Grey Knights are snobish bastards.I like it:p
But,would they use Stormtroppers and other Imperial Guard as support units,for taking objectives and general cannon folder?

I don't know.
As many others have said before, Grey Knights does not fight "normal" enemies. They are called to cope with the most unbelievable horrors and nightmares of the warp...during the Armageddon campaign dozens of GK Terminators with the Chapter Master banished Angron.

Angron.

Former Primarch of the World Eaters legion and now one of (the?) the most feared and powerful Daemon Princes of Khorne...they banished it and almost everyone died in the process.

That's the kind of enemies and situations the GK face. Powerful daemons, hordes of gibbering nightmares from the warp, ancient, powerful and nameless entities...that kind of stuff. In the tabletop GK and stormtroopers/guardsmen are often in the same force for balancing purposes.

In fluff Grey Knights probably will see normal humans as too weak/corruptible/both to be of some utility in their missions.



2)How much influnce does a senior Inqusitor have over the Grey Knights.I mean,could he take command of a small band of Knight(members already mencioned before) for a longer period of time,lets say a could of years.


Depends.
Years of service under a single Inquisitor is probably too much. Grey Knights are shock troops: they arrive, kill everyone, go away. People could work for years (even for their entire life) with an Inquisitor: that is called "being in a retinue of an Inquisitor".

Grey Knight are, however, a chapter of the Space Marines. You can't commandeer an extremely valuable resources like a single Grey Knight for years or centuries...a whole squad or a mixed force (GK Terminators, GK Marines and/or vehicles) is something even the most senior Lord Inquisitor could obtain for very limited period of time, and for the most incredibly dangerous menace one could think about.


In tabletop every single Inquisitor and his dog can commandeer whole regiments of Guards and squads upon squads of Grek Knights, Space Marines and whatnot. In the fluff only the most senior, talented and famous inquisitors can muster sufficient balls, political connections and favours to obtain such things.
Having an Inquisitorial Seal does not transform an individual in the most powerful bullyer of the Galaxy: people wandering around waving the Seal and screaming "gimme what I demand, I'm an Inquisitor" in the fluff usually are discretely removed from their duty by the Inquisition or discretely removed from life by some annoyed (and politically more capable) Imperial Officer.




3)What do the Grey Knights think of the Inqusitior Assasins,and vise versa?


There are not "inquisitor" assassins: there are four temples of the Officio Assassinorum, and every single temple is fully independent from the Inquisition. The Grey Knights will see them simply as talented and valuable servants of the Emperor...with some degree of disgust (none for the Vindicare or the Callidus, very high probably for the Culexus and Eversor).

Lothlanathorian
03-01-2009, 21:09
I do believe he was talking about Death Cult Assassins, which, well, don't belong to the =][=, but they do recruit some of them to operate as part of their retinue.

Also, when I say retinue, I don't mean Retinue, the in-game unit. Maybe I should say entourage.

Surgency
04-01-2009, 05:04
No.
Normal space marines are pretty snobbish with unagumented humans. Grey Knights are even more snobbish than the average marine: they are called in when someone (read: potentially every other human in the galaxy except them) goes too far and awakens forbidden powers.

I would just like to point out here that the Ordo Malleus has a rather large cadre of stormtroopers, and that they're usually dispatched as squads with the Grey Knights for general security reasons, ie: ship security, etc. This allows the GK to focus on the real task at hand, eliminating daemons, and such...


In fluff Grey Knights probably will see normal humans as too weak/corruptible/both to be of some utility in their missions.

Not necessarily... In Grey Knights, the Justicar (Alaric) develops a respect for the normal humans (Baluarian Heavy Infantry, Sister of Battle) he ends up with, as they faced the horrors of the daemonic, and fought on through their terror, even though things were "bad." He also honours the OM crewmen of the Rubicon for their sacrifice after he orders them to deliver him and his men to a planet in search of a rogue Inquisitor


In tabletop every single Inquisitor and his dog can commandeer whole regiments of Guards and squads upon squads of Grek Knights, Space Marines and whatnot. In the fluff only the most senior, talented and famous inquisitors can muster sufficient balls, political connections and favours to obtain such things.
Having an Inquisitorial Seal does not transform an individual in the most powerful bullyer of the Galaxy: people wandering around waving the Seal and screaming "gimme what I demand, I'm an Inquisitor" in the fluff usually are discretely removed from their duty by the Inquisition or discretely removed from life by some annoyed (and politically more capable) Imperial Officer.

Ehh, not quite. Inquisitors have ULTIMATE authority. Only two 'people' outweigh an Inquisitor, officially. The High Lords of Terra, and a senior Inquisitor. That said, most Inquisitors are respectful enough to request SM assistance. Especially since accidents can (and probably do) happen to those who get a little to rude. As for commandering Guard Units? All he has to do is show the Rosarius.

Allen
04-01-2009, 13:01
I would just like to point out here that the Ordo Malleus has a rather large cadre of stormtroopers, and that they're usually dispatched as squads with the Grey Knights for general security reasons, ie: ship security, etc. This allows the GK to focus on the real task at hand, eliminating daemons, and such...

According to fluff when the Inquisition calls the Grey Knights only them will face the real threat. In tabletop, Grey Knight could end in the same army with basically every kind of imperial soldier...but this is only for balancing reasons.




Not necessarily... In Grey Knights, the Justicar (Alaric) develops a respect for the normal humans (Baluarian Heavy Infantry, Sister of Battle) he ends up with, as they faced the horrors of the daemonic, and fought on through their terror, even though things were "bad." He also honours the OM crewmen of the Rubicon for their sacrifice after he orders them to deliver him and his men to a planet in search of a rogue Inquisitor

Well, Alaric is not a "standard" Grey Knight.
For plot reasons he's far more clever and prone to indipendent thought...in-universe, the narrator of his stories implies he's not considered a "good" Grey Knight, exactly for those reasons. He's stuck in the rank of Justicar despite his service status because his commanding officers think he's too soft.
I don't think Alaric is a good example to prove your point...it prove my point however, so I'm fine :)




Ehh, not quite. Inquisitors have ULTIMATE authority. Only two 'people' outweigh an Inquisitor, officially. The High Lords of Terra, and a senior Inquisitor. That said, most Inquisitors are respectful enough to request SM assistance. Especially since accidents can (and probably do) happen to those who get a little to rude. As for commandering Guard Units? All he has to do is show the Rosarius.

Well, maybe in badly written and schematic fluff.
Every single BL novel I've read about Inquisitors show that the Inquisitorial Seal is not some form of magic invulnerability...Inquisitors need to be good political animals. Only the most senior, respected and brilliant inquisitors could go around bullying whole planets without fear of retorsions.

Read some Abnett works about Eisenhorn, and you'll see that the things described in Codex: Daemon Hunters and Codex: Witch Hunters are the exception, not the norm ;)

Cherubael
04-01-2009, 13:32
That's outdated material.
Recent fluff (army books, novels, small bits of background) clearly describes imperial forces of any kind and shape fighting with daemons and traitor marines with only a routine inspection of the Inquisition to detect possible taints at the end of the operations.

No more silly rogue-trader era mind wiping or mass-executions, thanks to Sigmar...errr, I mean, thanks to the Emperor.

Actually if you read the more recent novels featuring Inquisitorial stormtroopers they are several mentions of mind-wipings occuring. The difference is in old fluff Space Marines would be mind wiped and normal infantry would be either rounded up in internment camps, such as after the first war for Armageaddon, or executed to prevent corruption just for fighting chaos, let alone any daemons.

Instead now Space Marines are just inspected at most, and Stormtroopers mind wiped, but only after direct contact with a Daemon.

Burnthem
04-01-2009, 13:59
Instead now Space Marines are just inspected at most, and Stormtroopers mind wiped, but only after direct contact with a Daemon.

Its entirely dependant on the situation. If a Guard regiment spent 3 years fighting on a Chaos infested world, showing signs of corruption and mutation than they would probably be executed as soon as was practially possible. If however a Regiment heroically fought off a horde of cultists trying to summon a Daemon than they'd probably just get a few speeches from thier attached preists and Commissars warning of the dangers of Chaos.

As for Inquisitors and thier 'limitless power' you have to remember that they are still human. Having a fancy Rosette (that may be fake anyway) doesn't force anyone to help you at all, you go around pissing people of (especially Marine Chapters/other Inquisitors etc) then you'll soon be found floating face down in a river somewhere. Not everybody is scared of the =I=, despite what they'd like you to beleive ;)

Surgency
04-01-2009, 14:35
According to fluff when the Inquisition calls the Grey Knights only them will face the real threat. In tabletop, Grey Knight could end in the same army with basically every kind of imperial soldier...but this is only for balancing reasons.

that doesn't preclude Stormtroopers being dispatched with them. The OM Troops still go, they just don't fight the big baddies that the Knights fight. They're there to provide the other duties for the Knights, Like I said, ships security, LZ security, minor things like that. That allows the Knights themselves to get to grips with the real baddies. If there's a fight, the OM Stormtroopers are just as likely to be in the thick of it against the conventional forces, while the Knights move on to face the daemonic, or the major threat, whatever the case may be



Well, Alaric is not a "standard" Grey Knight.
For plot reasons he's far more clever and prone to indipendent thought...in-universe, the narrator of his stories implies he's not considered a "good" Grey Knight, exactly for those reasons. He's stuck in the rank of Justicar despite his service status because his commanding officers think he's too soft.
I don't think Alaric is a good example to prove your point...it prove my point however, so I'm fine :)

There are many other examples through BL books of SM developing respect for unaugmented humans. It happens, and happens a lot. Alaric isn't "soft" according to his superiors, he's to much a wildcard. They want the Knights to do things by the book, but he tends more to thinking outside the box, something they don't like...



Well, maybe in badly written and schematic fluff.
Every single BL novel I've read about Inquisitors show that the Inquisitorial Seal is not some form of magic invulnerability...Inquisitors need to be good political animals. Only the most senior, respected and brilliant inquisitors could go around bullying whole planets without fear of retorsions.

Read some Abnett works about Eisenhorn, and you'll see that the things described in Codex: Daemon Hunters and Codex: Witch Hunters are the exception, not the norm ;)

No, it's not a magic invulnerability, I never said it was. But the seal of the Inquisitor gives complete authority, "the Authority of the Emperor of Mankind." It's mentioned in several books, even some by Abnett himself, that Inquisitors can do whatever they want, and nominally have no one to answer to. Ravenor even mentions several times that he can just take what he wants, due to the authority that he gains from his Rosette. We know, obviously, that they still answer to their superiors, and they can be reprimanded by their superiors for gettinga little to crazy, but the Rosette gives them ultimate authority.

Now, do Inquisitors need political ability? Yeah, no one ever denied that. The Inquisition is, at it's heart, a political organization. But the necessity for a political presence doesn't mean that they don't have ultimate authority over everyone...

The fluff itself mentions that there have been cases where Inquisitors went to far with their methods, and have had to be recalled to account for their actions. That tells me that the Inquisitor on the ground has his say. No one (unless a higher ranked Inquisitor is present) can tell him no. But when words of his methods get back to his sector HQ, they're going to want to know why he went about doing whatever he did



As for Inquisitors and thier 'limitless power' you have to remember that they are still human. Having a fancy Rosette (that may be fake anyway) doesn't force anyone to help you at all, you go around pissing people of (especially Marine Chapters/other Inquisitors etc) then you'll soon be found floating face down in a river somewhere. Not everybody is scared of the =I=, despite what they'd like you to beleive ;)

Especially in lawless, backwoods, out of the way, frontier type places, as mentioned in a few books ;)

Logarithm Udgaur
04-01-2009, 14:40
Read some Abnett works about Eisenhorn, and you'll see that the things described in Codex: Daemon Hunters and Codex: Witch Hunters are the exception, not the norm ;)

Methinks you have that backwards.

Lothlanathorian
04-01-2009, 19:49
Methinks you have that backwards.

I doth agree, good sir

Lexington
05-01-2009, 04:36
That's outdated material.
Well, remember, to some of us, "outdated" is just a quaint way of saying "better." ;)


Recent fluff (army books, novels, small bits of background) clearly describes imperial forces of any kind and shape fighting with daemons and traitor marines with only a routine inspection of the Inquisition to detect possible taints at the end of the operations.
This, I think, has more to do with the realignment of 40K background to fit a more novel-centric idea of the universe. Frankly, it's an affront to the 40K universe, which was much, much more interesting before it became fodder for Black Library's monthly pulp trash.

Anyhow, I think the background on Inquisitors executing/mind-wiping the survivors of Daemonic incursions presents an interesting opportunity for the army in question - an Inquisitor, having watched a brave regiment of Guardsmen, faces an Emperor-sworn duty to make sure that word of the Daemonic doesn't get out amongst the populace of the Imperium. Rather than have them executed, as per standard orders, he commandeers them as a personal fighting force. Interesting idea, I think, with some opportunities for interesting characters and conversions. Up to the OP, but if you'd like to use the idea, go for it.

Lothlanathorian
05-01-2009, 04:54
And don't forget GW's official policy on 'out dated' fluff: It's all relevant.