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Helveticus
04-01-2009, 06:54
This is a list I've been playing with for a little while, and its done amazingly well. It has a half-your-eggs-in-one-basket approach, but the layered defenses on that basket make it work.

Lord (252)
Grail Vow, Lance of Artois or Wyrmlance depending on how I feel that day, Gromril Greathelm, Gauntlet of the Duel, Virtue of Confidence, shield

Paladin (BSB) (150)
Grail Vow, Virtue of Duty, Warbanner

Paladin (115)
Knights Vow, Virtue of the Ideal, Lance, shield

Damsel (120)
Horse, Holy Icon

Knights of the Realm (KOTR) (240)
x9 FC

Knights Errant (KE) (201)
x8, FC, Errantry banner

Peasant Bowmen (PB) x20, Skirmish, Braziers

Grail Reliquae (235)
6 default + 13 bonus pilgrims, final US 25.

Mounted Yeomen (87)
x5, sheilds, musicain

Pegasus Knights (165)
x3

Grail Knights (288)
x6, FC, Banner of Defense

The Lord, and BSB join the Damsel in the Grail Knight unit. The reason it's a Damsel over another paladin is so the Damsel can go behind a character in the middle rank and middle file, allowing one entire file as R&F models in the rare case a bolt thrower will get through.

This is something of the lynchpin behind the list. This one unit will put out more than 20 attacks on the charge... more than half of those at S6. It's got a static CR of 6, more likely 7 with outnumber. It has Magic Reistance 3, and a 4+ ward vs all missile fire, including magic missiles. With the defense layered that deep, its very very difficult to take this unit down at range.

At a total cost of 810 between the unit, unit wargear, characters and their assorted wargear, its 40% of your army's points cost, but it can withstand the attention of considerably more points aimed at it. And doing so frees up the other 1190 points of my army to run rampant through their lines unopposed.

The Ideal Paladin will join the Knights Errant with the Errantry banner pushing their Impetuous tests to a 5... the penalty from the Ideal is offset by his increased Ld over their base. Still an effective way of helping them fail the test for those borderline charges.

20 skirmishing bowmen across from a warmachine will often be picking off crew every turn. About a third hit, a couple hit the crew, one wounds, one dies. If you can find a woods to put them in, any counter fire from a BS4 unit will be hitting them on 7's.

The Reliquae is large enough to avoid being beaten by most fear causers, and can work well in concert with either KOTR unit, or best of all the GK unit and its included BSB, however its best to keep them away from the KE unit- as the Ideal paladin can hurt them and a unit that large just costs too much to fail the stubborn check by 1 because of him.

The GK unit has been a huge surprise to me at just how hardy it is. Its taken flank charges from a war hydra, and not only survived but won the combat. In fact, so far the only thing to throw a scare into me has been some orc weapon, I think Shagga's Screaming Sword its called- with three characters in the unit, that sword gets painful.

Can anyone provide any further refinements, or other items/units etc that would/should worry me?

Arbiter7
04-01-2009, 08:27
Hmm you should be worried about my Manticore Mounted Dreadlord.

I'd gladly sacrifice any number of juicy units to set up a flank charge by this dude on your prize unit.

US 5 (denies ranks)

4 WS 5 S 5 Killing Blow with Hatred attacks from the manti
4 WS 7 S 6 Killing Blow with Hatred attacks from the Lord.


Easily chews over that static +4 you've got minus ranks.

All this for something like 450 pts.
Some kills plus +1 for flanks.

And Half your eggs are broken, mate!

Helveticus
04-01-2009, 12:49
Well, lets see... You should get 1KB from the Manti (4 attacks hit on 4+ thus 2 hits, 2 misses, rerolled = 6 rolls), and 1 (4A hit on 3+ = 5.167 rolls or there-abouts- close enough to fudge it in your favor) from the Lord. You should get another 4ish hits(6 rolls each, 2 hits, 2 hits, reroll 1hit 1 miss(Manti), 1 hit, 1 miss (Lord), making 6 hits - 2KB hits= 4 additional hits)- wound on 2's 3 ish wounds- 5 total. I'll armor save 1.33, ward save another, then ward save two-thirds of a KB wound- leaving you 2 wounds. So you'll have 1 for flank, and 2 for wounds, leaving you 3 CR. I'll lose my ranks, but still have 3 for my BSB, one for my unit standard, one for outnumber- Plus I'll get to make two attacks back... my 50mm flank base means you have to max frontage being in contact with three models- you killed two, leaving at least one model to strike back- hit on 4's, (without a manti stats) guessing I wound on 5's... gives me .67 wounds back. Gives me an average rough estimated combat res of 3, + 1, +1, +.67 or 5.67 to your 3. You lose by 2.67 giving you a 50/50 shot at breaking on Ld 9- slightly better than that on Ld 10. I'd probably even do the smart play and challenge you every round with a R&F grail knight to preserve my outnumber until the averages catch up and you break- giving me your 450 points PLUS all those juicy units you sacrificed to set up this flank charge.

I've eaten a flank charge from a hyrdra and won combat- S5+ vs T3 means KB doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

No, this still isn't in the same realm of fear as that of Shagga's Screaming Sword. That thing against this unit pumps out enough attacks to hit every R&F troop and negate all their armor saves in the first round of combat alone- an average of 4 kills for the guy with the sword PLUS he'll have the static CR of the unit he's in.

ewar
04-01-2009, 19:28
I like the list as it looks fun to play with, but I wouldn't call it the most competitive. You'll get comparable fighting power from combining those characters into 2 lances of errants/KOTR instead of a single grail unit and gain both survivability and points. Grails are awesome, but they're just as easy to kill as all the other knights.

I hate the word, but the optimal build is therefore to use them minimum size, I run 4 with no standard or musician as they are only ~150pts, but draw a lot of fire due to the fear factor. If they die, its no big loss.

I've recently been playing against the new dark elves and the monster spam list (dragon, manti and 2 hydras) is the most difficult thing I've ever come across to play against. Brets rely on their speed and hitting power to win the day, picking and choosing their fights - monsters are impossible to pin down and a double charge from manti and dragon is devestating.

Also, what role is the damsel really playing? She offers no real magic defence against PD spam lists (tzeentch daemons) as she has no scrolls and is a totally ineffective caster. I'd take 2 scrolls to get you at least to the second turn unscathed before you get into the shelter of combat. Also, have you tried the falcon horn? Its the most useful item in an all comers list, due to the profusion of fast flying things and has helped me out several times to get a lance into an unsuspecting monster.

These are tips geared more to competitive lists though, so just ignore them if you're playing in a more friendly environment! I like the army though, you can't go wrong with knights in shiny armour...

Helveticus
08-01-2009, 04:50
Its not really designed to be max competitive.. a strong list in friendly games is what I enjoy the most.