View Full Version : Difficulty in Defeating DoC at 2.5k

04-01-2009, 15:42
Ok Im up against my friend for the 3rd time with his unchanged DoC list with my Vampires... to date he is 2 nil up both with massacres.

Im really struggling to come up with a list which can beat him, I have practically all VC units at my disposal (apart from Spirit Hosts).

The list he is using is as follows

Kairos Fateweaver

Herald of Nurgle (Battle Stnd)
Level 1
Noxious Vapours
Slime Trail
Great Standard of Sundering

Herald of Tzeench
Spell Breaker

19 Plague Bearers
FC & Standard of Seeping Decay

19 Pink Horrors

12 Bloodletters
FC & Icon of Endless War

5 Flamers of Tzeentch

5 Flamers of Tzeentch

5 Flesh Hounds

5 Flesh Hounds

My Etherals are useless, I have a really hard time casting anything apart from IoN, I get dominated in movement, magic, shooting & combat phase, the only unit I have to stop the hard to kill Plague Bearers is 20 Grave Guard with Banner of Burny Goodness and a wight king with sword of kings so i can manage them, but not much else...

Im struggling to come up with a viable list to use against this one

So any help will be appreciated.

04-01-2009, 16:33
So he puts his BSB in with the Plaguebearers. I'm guessing he puts the Tz caster in with the Horrors.
So Bloodletters shouldn't be a problem unless they are able to charge your units with the vampire. So you need to manuver so the Letters can't charge your vampires.
The fleshhounds are good and fast, but they won't be able to run through any units on their own. So unless they are in the way of your moving, you can pretty much ignore them.
I'm guessing the real source of problems for you is the Sundering standard, the Flamers, and Fateweaver. Which means all of his strength comes from shutting your magic down, getting a handful of spells off each turn, and blasting units to pieces with flamers. He is using a pretty good list here, especially against VC.
The flamers are going to ruin your day so you have to take care of them quickly. I would do this by screening your valuable units with wolves or raised zombies. This buys you time from the shooting. But in order to effectively raise zombies you will need to go after his magic.
The Sundering standard inside a unit of PB is going to be really hard to get to. You could get tricky and use Forebidden Lore on one vamp, this might have to be your Vamp Lord to be able to successfully cast some spells several times. I would choose either Lore of Fire, in this case it could be a level 1 vamp but again with the lord you might be able to take the unit down in a turn or two. Or you could choose Lore of Shadows, then Pit of Shades those wily Plaguebearers. This would be best used on a Lord, so he can use plenty of dice to get it done. Luckily, this spell would also work well on the Horrors. The Sundering shouldn't stop you because he is not going to pick Fire or Shadows. And if he does, then you can be raising and invocating all you want.
Next up is dealing with Fateweaver, probably the best caster in the whole game, except for maybe Teclis. Ok, so he is horrendously bad in combat. So the goal is to throw something, anything at him in combat. So here you may want a Flying Vampire or possible a Vamp with the Talisman of Lycni. He won't be expecting the long range charge from a character on foot and he can't do anything but hold. If you use the Talisman for movement 9, then give your Vamp Flayed Hauberk, Infinite Hatred, Avatar of Death with two hand weapons. It may take a couple turns of combat but he should kill Kairos on his own. Alternatively you could use a Vargulf to do it. If you want it down quick, use both. In fact, most things should be able to kill Kairos in a turn or two but you want something that he won't expect, otherwise he will try to avoid or block your charges. Fell Bats might be good at taking care of him as well.

Anyway, it all comes down to taking out the Standard and Kairos. With them you will be able to raise all you want to block those Flamers from doing a lot. and focus on beating the other units in combat res.

Most of this advice is about your Characters, which you didn't say how you set them up. So its just my advice on how I would set mine up against this army, no matter what else you contain in yours. Cheers, hope this is useful or makes sense.

04-01-2009, 16:35
Not too familiar with VCs but as a Daemon player I can tell you what this list doesn't like.

Kairos is soft in combat, so anything you have that can fly can go after him, or any thing that can restrict flying movement and give you a good chance of pinning him down.

Plaguebearers are tough, but flaming attacks should see them off fairly easily. You can KB the Herald or simply smack him with a fiery stick until he stops moving, just make sure you can weather 3 S5 attacks and 6 poison attacks before you get to swing.

Horrors are great at magic, but not so much in combat. Even basic blocks can beat them and slowly whittle them down with instability. They are also fairly slow, so flanking shouldn't be too difficult. The Herald will be easily dispatched.

Bloodletters only have 1 attack each, so send weaker units like Skeletons, Ghouls, and Zombies after them. They'll kill a couple and you drag them down with numbers and CR. T3 and a 5+ ward isn't all that hot either.

Flamers are nasty, the best way to go after them is magic or shooting.

Flesh Hounds are dead killy, but if they hit a unit in the front they will not do so hot thanks to ranks and outnumbering.

If you can get a hold of Kairos or shut him down and engage the PBs with a fighty character and flaming attacks you should do well. Keep the Hounds and Flamers busy with zombie spam. Also, remember that Invocation is not a spell from the Lore of Vampires, so it isn't hurt by the Standard ;)

04-01-2009, 16:56
A few simple rules to follow:

1. Numbers number numbers. Daemons dont like to be heavily outnumbered, especially by troops that dont break.
2. Daemons cannot flee. Charge them and they're going to be stuck there untill they kill all your men.
3. Character's arent everything. You just need vampires to get the army marching, 1 character and 2 min size blood knight units to sit behind everyone will allow prettymuch the entire army to move normally without the need to spend stupid amounts of points.
4. Envelop the enemy.

Follow those and you should quite easily beat Daemon armies like the one you are facing.

04-01-2009, 16:57
in 2.5k I normally run

Vamp Lord
Flayed Hauberk
Helm of Commandment (normally used on gravegard & wight king
Gem of Blood
Avatar of Death
Walking Death
Lord of Dead
Dark Acolyte makes him a level 4

Vampire 1
Walachs Bloody Hauberk
Dread Knight
Walking Death

Vampire 2
Wrist Bands of Dark Gold
Talisman of Lycni
Avatar of Death
Dark Acolyte

Wight Lord
Either Sword of Kings & Accursed Armour
or Battle Standard with Banner of Drakenhof

backed up with 2 corpse carts

This normally gives me a lot of options but im thinking im going to have to min max to beat this list..

P.s. the wight king with banner of drakenhof versus the plague bearers was very one sided... no regeneration and a constant invocation of nehek to keep on raising the champion proved a lot bigger tar pit then even the plague bearer combo could manage

04-01-2009, 17:06
Erm....are those characters even legal?

The level 2 vamp.
Wrist bands, talisman, 50pts
Avatar of death, dark acolyte...that's 40
He's a level 1 normally but needs a bloodline power to get to level 2 right?
So he cant have all that or he's over.

The lord seems to have about 110points in powers.

I'll point out that a big unit of 40 zombies will generally hold anything in place that hits them...usually for a long time.
Vs flesh hounds, it'll take the flesh hounds...about 5 combat rounds to kill the lot of them.
40 zombies is "only" 160pts, compared to the 175 for the flesh hounds.
You dont need 40 though, about 30 is usually plenty and then you throw a single raise at them when they get to about 17 men to ensure full rank bonus for the ensuing combat phase.

04-01-2009, 17:11
Yes they are

Vamp Lord
80pts Magic Items allowed 100pts (25pts FH, 30pts HoC, 25pts GoB)
90pts Vamp Powers allowed 100pts (20pts AoD, 30pts DA, 25pts WD, 15pts LoD)
50pts Vamp Level 3 Upgrade doesnt count as a power or magic item

Vamp 1
45pts Magic Items allowed 50pts (45pts WBH)
50pts Vamp Powers allowed 50pts (25pts DK, 25pts WD)

Vamp 2
40pts Magic Items allowed 50pts (30pts WoBG, 10pts ToL)
50pts Vamp Powers allowed 50pts (20pts AoD, 30pts DA)

04-01-2009, 17:13
:o Opps sorry i was meant to type Vampire 1 & Vampire 2 not vampire level 2.....

I'll edit it now