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Firebreather
05-01-2009, 20:01
Hey there everyone. It's become obvious to me, over time, that magic is not my friend. In fact, it's become the single biggest enemy I have in this game. I'm not speaking of enemy magic ravaging my troops(although that does happen quite frequently despite my best efforts), but of my own magic, which seems destined to always ruin my best laid plans. The fact that my own magic phase is so hard on me, nevermind my enemy's, is just killer. I miscast horribly a disgusting amount of times during most games, no matter the situation. I could go on with my tales of woe here, but I'm sure you get my point. However much I might like the idea and theory of using spells in my games of Warhammer, the winds of magic and I simply don't work well together...to put it lightly.

The horrors I've suffered in my magic phase have finally led to me wanting to make an army that uses nothing in the way of spells. Tactically, it's just become unwise for me to have a magic phase at all. Magic items are, of course, still more than welcome.

So, I bring this before you all for discussion on the various non-spellcasting forces available in Warhammer. I'd really just like to see some opinions on said armies, and also on my own struggle with magic if you'd like. Any ideas or thoughts on armies I could collect that ignore the magic phase, while at the same time retaining some level of protection against enemy magic is what I'm looking for here, and would be most appreciated.


Edit: Just to clarify, and possibly save some people some time, I'm not really looking for responses like "collect Dwarfs..." so much, as discussion on regards to Dwarfs(to stick with the example), and how they get along without, and deal with enemy magic effectively. Also, I know I could just use any of the armies out there, and simply not include any spellcasters and such, but I'm more looking for an army that's list was more or less created without a magic phase in mind at all.

Malorian
05-01-2009, 20:08
Well one thing you could do is play tomb kings. Then you'll know each spell you cast will NEVER miscast and you don't even have to worry about failing a casting value.

I've had very good success running brets, wood elves, dwarfs (obviously), orcs, and lizardmen without any magic (other than maybe a defensive caddy).

You don't need the magic phase, and all the points you save from not having expensive casters allows you to have more of everything else.

Just make sure you build your list with an idea of how you are going to mitigate your opponent's magic.

Ghilleman
05-01-2009, 20:10
Well, Dwarves are probably the best no-magic army you could make because, well, they don't even have a magic phase, really. Even the Anvil of Doom is used in the shooting phase. They also have gobs of anti-magic to make up for their lack of wizards. 4dd base, they can steal power dice and use them as dd, 15 stackable MR(1) runes, and so on. WE's can also do well without a magic phase, since they're all about movement. Treesinging is nice, for sure, but you can get along without it.

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 20:11
Nice, thanks Malorian! I honestly hadn't considered the Tomb Kings as choice before now, but I think it's a great idea! No miscasts, but the ability to still cast spells....very nice indeed. I don't know much about the Tomb Kings, but I assume their spells are cast similar to bound spells?

loveless
05-01-2009, 20:15
Bretonnians probably do fine sans magic.

The Empire can take Warrior Priests instead of Wizards - and are typically a better character choice, imo.

Anything fast should be able to function with minimal magic as well - after all, the enemy wizards can't do much if they're impaled on a lance, now can they?

Warriors of Chaos, Wood Elves, and the Empire all have little ways of getting magic resistance in various areas of the army, be it through items, gifts, mounts, or special rules.

Just a few ideas to toss around in your head.

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 20:16
Ghilleman: Yup, Dwarfs are the non-spellcasting archetype, with absolutely no magic phase to worry about, and lots of magic defense, as you mentioned. It's true, Dwarfs would be the obvious choice for what I'm looking for...in terms of no magic, anyway. There is a few things about the Dwarf army that I would have to come to terms with, mainly involving the lack of mobility, but they're definately a viable choice for me. Thanks for the response!

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 20:23
loveless: Thanks for all the suggestions, and one thing you said kind of struck a chord with me, that being the idea of a fast-moving force. I was thinking something along those lines as well, and it's good to see someone else of the same opinion. As you said, an enemy wizard can't do much damage if they're dead and trampled under-hoof.

I'm not familiar with the new Warriors of Chaos book as of yet, but from what I gather, Chaos Knights are (still) brilliant, if not more, and as are Marauder Horsemen(definately more so, it seems). A Khornate-based force of mostly mounted troops would fit the anti-magic bill quite nicely I would think?

Malorian
05-01-2009, 20:24
Nice, thanks Malorian! I honestly hadn't considered the Tomb Kings as choice before now, but I think it's a great idea! No miscasts, but the ability to still cast spells....very nice indeed. I don't know much about the Tomb Kings, but I assume their spells are cast similar to bound spells?

It's quite different from other armies.

You have the king and the prince that can either use the incantation that lets them move in the magic phase (even charge) or get a free combat or shooting phase. The prince can do this once and the king twice. They just roll a dice and that's the casting value.

Priests and high priests generate dispel dice and can use the two incantations mentioned above or can heal wounds or use a magic missile as well. The priest can cast one using two dice, and the priest can cast two using three dice each time (basically having 6 power dice).

So unlike bound items, the value changes each time depending on what you roll.

It seems that tomb kings get a bad rap on warseer, but that's mainly because they don't do well at low point values. Once you hit 2000 and can take a high priest your magic phase gets VERY powerful, and knowing all your spells, knowing it will always go off, and knowing you will never miscast is just icing on the cake :)

theunwantedbeing
05-01-2009, 20:28
Vampire counts.
They do far better than you would expect with the minimum of casters (ie. the general not upgraded at all).
Couple of black coaches helps for magical defence as well.

You can give your lord a bunch of scrolls if you really want.
Lord, dread knight, infinite hatred, 4 scrolls.
Decent at combat, and he has 4 scrolls, plus you'll generate 3 dispel dice.

Throw in a couple of coprse carts causing -1 to casting attempts to thsoe within 24" and suddenly you've got a really good magical defence.

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 20:28
Malorian: Thanks again, especially so for the bit of education in regards to the Tomb Kings. Their magic sounds very interesting, and it's something I think I should look into right away. It seems to me like they get a very nice magic phase without most of the dice-imposed risk of all other army's magic phases, while somehow managing to avoid being considred overpowered or unfair by the majority. At least, I've never heard anyone complain about the Tomb Kings at all, let along their magic abilities. Very cool.

Ravenheart
05-01-2009, 20:29
There is also the mono Khorne daemons army, which totaly lacks a magic phase. The units have a in-build magic resistance giving them at least some protection.

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 20:31
theunwantedbeing: Now that's an army I didn't think would be suggested here at all! I am, however, pleasantly surprised at this, as I just happen to have the Vampire Counts army book. I've never thought about doing as you've suggested with the VC, but I have a feeling it's worth a look, and would make for a rather unusual and fresh Vamp army. Thanks!

Ravenheart: Thanks for the response! This was one of the armies I was originally considering actually, and it's a definite possibility. The Daemons are hideously powerful as an army, often too much so for many people's sensibilities. Maybe playing a mono-Khorne, no magic list would help make it a little less hated?

loveless
05-01-2009, 20:33
loveless: Thanks for all the suggestions, and one thing you said kind of struck a chord with me, that being the idea of a fast-moving force. I was thinking something along those lines as well, and it's good to see someone else of the same opinion. As you said, an enemy wizard can't do much damage if they're dead and trampled under-hoof.

I'm not familiar with the new Warriors of Chaos book as of yet, but from what I gather, Chaos Knights are (still) brilliant, if not more, and as are Marauder Horsemen(definately more so, it seems). A Khornate-based force of mostly mounted troops would fit the anti-magic bill quite nicely I would think?

This depends on the set-up. I feel that pretty much everyone would disagree with me, but heroes on juggernauts or with items such as the Collar of Khorne can add in enough Magic defense to your units to avoid Wizards.

All Khorne means that you're all frenzied - I'd argue that it's not much of a problem when the entire army has frenzy - you can't bait everything, after all.

Knights are...very, very good. Marauder Horsemen can be given flails to make them incredibly annoying for their points cost.

Spawn (especially Scyla) have the opportunity to be fast, if they roll well.

The Khornate special character has Fly as one of her special rules, so she'll have little trouble keeping up with a mounted army.

It could be done, but I'd proxy a few battles before committing to such a force.

On the opposite end of the absolute Chaos that is Khorne Warriors, you have the absolute Order that is Tomb Kings. Very, very different...and I'd probably bet a nickel that the Tomb Kings would be more effective in the long run.

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 20:43
loveless: I would be inclined to agree with you in that the Tomb Kings would likely be a more effective force in the end. The fast-paced Khornate Chaos force would possibly end up being a bit of a one-trick pony, in that it either does it's limited main job, or it doesn't...which doesn't sound overly rewarding in the long term. Tomb Kings are really starting to look like an excellent option here...

moose
05-01-2009, 22:01
Malorian: Thanks again, especially so for the bit of education in regards to the Tomb Kings. Their magic sounds very interesting, and it's something I think I should look into right away. It seems to me like they get a very nice magic phase without most of the dice-imposed risk of all other army's magic phases, while somehow managing to avoid being considred overpowered or unfair by the majority. At least, I've never heard anyone complain about the Tomb Kings at all, let along their magic abilities. Very cool.

It is positive that TK never miscast, however you have to realise that if you don't suceed in your magic phase that you will be at a severe disadvantage. So it is still a very important phase, more in fact than for most because of the 'buffs' it gives units.

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 22:51
moose: Ouch, and I was just really getting excited about the Tomb Kings too...well, I mean I suppose this reliance on their magic phase isn't so bad for me. I find many armies rely on a certain phase of the game to be successful, in one way or another. I've tried to avoid completely depending on one phase of the game in any army I've ever played, and I've certainly not ever put my faith in my magic phase...so your point, moose, about the TK relying on their magic is well taken, and gives me something to really think about.

The thing is, though, that I know why my magic phases are so terrible; chance. For whatever reason, the dice hate me when it comes time to roll for a spell, seemingly without fail. So, it's the random nature of spellcasting that screws me, not because it's in any way unfair or wrong or unbalanced, etc....but simply because the dice screw me. It's nothing one can complain about too much, and I actually love the random nature of the game for the most part...including the magic phase, actually.

So, I'm thinking the TKs magic reliance isn't really a massive problem for me at this point, as their spells are more reliable than what I've been using up to now. It's worth a shot, and would still let me be involved in the magic phase, so...I suppose we'll see. Thanks for the brainfood though, moose, excellent point...a point I had completely missed;)

Edit: Oh, and just as an aside, I've taken theunwantedbeing's advice, and attepted to make a non-magic based VC army...it's in the army list forum for anyone who's interested in helping out with it. It's pretty bare bones at the time of writing, but I think it could actually turn out pretty respectfully with a little work...maybe. I'm not questioning theunwantedbeing's advice or knowledge, by the way, but rather my skill at writing and building lists, which is honestly a little sketchy at best;) I actually wrote it simply because I've seen a lot of posts and such by the unwantedbeing, and respect and covet his knowledge...just thought I'd clarify that his suggestion threw me off at first, but after writing it and getting more than a second hand knowledge of the VC army, think it's actually an excellent idea as well as an entertaining one. I'll admit, it even has me much more interested in the Vamps as an army now...

Anyway, the army list is posted if you're interested. I'll probably post more lists as they birth within my mind, and I'll let you all know here as well.
Link:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177292

Coram_Boy
05-01-2009, 22:59
How about a Lizardman force, with no mages, but lots of Skar-Vets with mark of tepok?
If you gave all your skar-vets/old one mark of tepok, you would have 6 dispel dice per phase, which is better than a 3 dice 2 scroll list, ie a level 1 scroll caddy and no more. however, I dont know if it will work in the new book...

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 23:06
True enough, Coram_Boy, and thanks for the suggestion and thoughts. I have a fair amount of knowledge of the current Lizardmen army book, enough to know anyway that your suggestion would most likely work...and be pretty cool while doing so(I'm a bit of a Lizzie fan). You mentioned it yourself though, until the new book comes out, we really won't know for sure if such an idea is possible. However, most of the rumours I've seen and heard state that the Blessed Spawnings are gone bye bye, which doesn't look good for making multiple Tepok-blessed Saurus...

Malorian
05-01-2009, 23:07
How about a Lizardman force, with no mages, but lots of Skar-Vets with mark of tepok?
If you gave all your skar-vets/old one mark of tepok, you would have 6 dispel dice per phase, which is better than a 3 dice 2 scroll list, ie a level 1 scroll caddy and no more. however, I dont know if it will work in the new book...

No tepok in the new book. So that one is out...

Although now you can make all enemy mages stupid :evilgrin:

Ymir
05-01-2009, 23:12
Also, the Tomb Kings are a really, really fun army with a lot of different builds possible. They live and die by their magic phase, that much is true, but whether you succeed or not is much more about how cleverly you manage to position your priests and realizing how to best use the various incantations at your disposal. The dice can only screw with you by making incantations easy for the opponent to dispel; but he will only have so many dispel dice; you can rather easily throw so many incantations around that he won't be able to stop them all.

Coram_Boy
05-01-2009, 23:20
Its true, one of my friends plays tomb kings, and every game is a laugh. besides, they have a very diverse deck of spells. in addition to the d6 str 4 which is typical to every army, they also have a movement spell, a regain wounds spell, and the spell which lets them fight a round of combat or let one unit shoot. on the other hand, as they need a prince and heirophant, they are not good in small games.

Coram_Boy
05-01-2009, 23:23
actually, I heard that there was a lizardmen item that transferred your miscasts to an enemy wizard in LOS. if thats true, then the mistcast can only be good for you, and make a lizardmen list viable for you, and put your poor luck to good use. however, as you dont want a magicy army, then possibly not the best choice for you

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 23:24
Cool, that's what I like to hear, Ymir! It seems that the success of the TK's magic is more up to me as the player, rather than depending on random chance(no matter how you stack it, imho...)...well, at the very least I'd say it's hard to argue that it's, at worst, a little more reliable than typical spellcasting...at worst, that is. Makes sense to a newcomer like myself now as to why their magic is easier and more dependable to cast than pretty much any other army's...because they almost completely rely on it for success. Neat. I'm sorry, I know this is all old news to pretty much everyone else, but I'm just starting to catch on...I think I'm nearly up to speed now, and have a decent idea of what the TKs are all about.

And I like it.

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 23:25
Coram_Boy, that rumoured Lizzie magic item you mentioned would be just the ticket....although in my hands it would be truly, TRULY overpowered.

ZigZagMan
05-01-2009, 23:35
I regularly play armies without magic. I also tend to avoid Warmachines that use the misfire die (bolt throwers are lovely however). The key most of the time is to have enough troops to absorb the magic missles that will be flying your way. The other option is to still have a decent anti-magic phase. I.E. lots of dispel dice, or magic resistance, or both.

Dwarves, of course, do this well.

O&G, surprisingly, also do well. The have morks spirt totem, pretty much adds 3 dispel dice for most of the game. Add a single goblin shaman with a staff of sneaky stealin and you have a whooping 7 dispel dice AND you opponent is down a power die. However the animosity can still ruin your plans.
Skaven do ok, they have a magic resistance item or two, and if you have enough slaves out front no wizard is gonna be able to target your good units.

Lizardmen can also get buckets of dispel dice from the spawnings. Although that might change this year...

And bretionians can have a couple damsels in some units, giving them MR(1) and they have a good item that gives MR(3). on top of the extra character they get and the damsels can load up on dispel scrolls as well as giving a couple dispel dice.

That all being said I've never really had a problem with just barreling through the enemies magic with all the extra bodies i gained from not taking wizards. And all the extra combat resolution i get from my tweaked fighting characters.

Coram_Boy
05-01-2009, 23:42
another alternative would be an army that focused heavily on taking out the back line of artillery, missile troops, and wizards. the problem then is facing armies like vc and chaos warriors, in which case you can use for flank charge and negating ranks. possible - I always find the army I used where I deployed 1 unit on the table behind a hill and no more very funny to use. and, of course, you have your points spare for the flanking force from the gap left by your absent wizard.

Firebreather
05-01-2009, 23:47
Right on, and that's excellent to hear, ZigZagMan! Did/do you have dice issues too, causing you to avoid and limit most chance-based options in your army? War machines and I get along swimmingly and do great together, even the hideously dangerous ones like the Helblaster and such...I rarely lose one in a game. Like I said, I actually really like some of the random nature and luck-based aspects of the game, as I think they make it, ohhh, I don't know...just a little more bizarre and amusing for the most part. It's just when I hit my magic phase, things go sideways...far too much, and far too often. It's just not funny anymore, even for the majority of my opponents oddly.

That's an army that I don't believe has been mentioned yet, Orcs and Goblins! I totally forgot about them actually. I seem to recall upon first reading their latest army book that I thought they'd do well with little to no magical offense, and a big unit with Mork's Spirit Totem. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's a fairly common practice, which tells me it must be effective to a degree. I think I'll actually look into some magicless O&G right away, and see what I can come up with. Thanks!

Oh, and by the way, excellent points in regards to everything else you've mentioned, and I'm sorry for not taking the time to address them all....I'm stoked on seeing what the O&G have to offer me!;)

Guy Fawkes
06-01-2009, 00:25
Hey there everyone. It's become obvious to me, over time, that magic is not my friend. In fact, it's become the single biggest enemy I have in this game. I'm not speaking of enemy magic ravaging my troops(although that does happen quite frequently despite my best efforts), but of my own magic, which seems destined to always ruin my best laid plans. The fact that my own magic phase is so hard on me, nevermind my enemy's, is just killer. I miscast horribly a disgusting amount of times during most games, no matter the situation. I could go on with my tales of woe here, but I'm sure you get my point. However much I might like the idea and theory of using spells in my games of Warhammer, the winds of magic and I simply don't work well together...to put it lightly.

The horrors I've suffered in my magic phase have finally led to me wanting to make an army that uses nothing in the way of spells. Tactically, it's just become unwise for me to have a magic phase at all. Magic items are, of course, still more than welcome.

So, I bring this before you all for discussion on the various non-spellcasting forces available in Warhammer. I'd really just like to see some opinions on said armies, and also on my own struggle with magic if you'd like. Any ideas or thoughts on armies I could collect that ignore the magic phase, while at the same time retaining some level of protection against enemy magic is what I'm looking for here, and would be most appreciated.


Edit: Just to clarify, and possibly save some people some time, I'm not really looking for responses like "collect Dwarfs..." so much, as discussion on regards to Dwarfs(to stick with the example), and how they get along without, and deal with enemy magic effectively. Also, I know I could just use any of the armies out there, and simply not include any spellcasters and such, but I'm more looking for an army that's list was more or less created without a magic phase in mind at all.

I posted an Empire army list here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177075 that has no wizards. There is a nice 7 bound spells and you could squeeze in 3 more for 10 bound spells if you wanted. There are no miscasts and though the magic isn't gamewinning, it is a nice boost. I haven't actually played with the list yet, but you might want to see Empire as an army that can win without magic, but can also have magic without wizards.

Darkangeldentist
06-01-2009, 00:26
I've often played around with these kinds of ideas.

Tomb kings provide lots of options as they have a completely safe magic phase. Empire with warrior priests and arch lectors are much the same giving you a good range of spells decent character clout and a bit of magical defence.

Ogres can survive pretty well without magic. Most of them are fast and they have a decent selection of anti-magic options. (Magic resistance to increased chance of miscasting and even a banner to shunt nasty magical damage onto cheap numerous servants.) Plus pretty much everyone in the army is a big nasty thug. Not the easiest army to use though. A hunter with a couple of sabre tusks will do nicely for assassinations. (Go sick-em.)

Vampires will do strangely well by using vampires with the right powers to allow you reasonably reliable single dice castings for raising re-inforcements. A corpse cart or two will suitably hamper your opponents.

Chaos have some very good tricks. The black tongue and infernal puppet are an obvious combination to some and will invariably make sure your opponent suffers at least one serious magical mishap. Thus protecting you enough not to need worrying too much about their magic.

Daemons of khorne come with magic resistance which is ok.

Dwarfs of course with many, many options to build upon.

I like the Orcs and goblin tricks but too many things can go wrong there for my tastes.

Firebreather
06-01-2009, 00:38
Guy Fawkes: Good point, and one I've been thinking on quite a bit, also being an Empire player myself...which I believe I forgot to mention. You're quite right, and it's kind of ironic that one of the main armies I'm currently using and have become so disgusted with(magically, of course) happens to be one of the ones with many,many options for a non-magical army. Good options at that, if you ask me. I'll definately take a look at your list, Mr. Fawkes, and having seen some of your work before(I believe....), I'm sure I wont be disappointed. The Empire, for anyone else, is an excellent option if you're looking to avoid typical magic. For me, sadly, they've been tarnished and ruined in my mind, so many catastrophies and horrors happening with them....thanks almost entirely, of course, to my miserable, terrible, sickening magic phases. Sigh. Guy,if your list sparks something in me and rekindles my love of the Empire, then...well, I'll let you know.

Darkangeldentist: Good points all, I do reckon! One thing you mentioned was really odd to me, because I was just coming to the exact same conclusion, having just written an army list dealing with them....the fact that greenskins magic resistance, for the most part, can be...well, Mr. dentist put it well enough, "too many things can go wrong." It looks good on paper, I believe, but it can be negated or otherwise messed with relatively easily. I'm sure it can work, and work well a lot of the time...but it is admittedly a little touch and go, especially when you consider that, in my case anyway, much of the magical defense is coming from one single model carrying one little ragged banner(aka Mork's Spirit Totem). So yeah, great point darkangeldentist...it's sketchy.

Speaking of sketchy Orc and Goblin armies! I've actually posted another non-magic army list in the army list forum...yup, I had a quick go at laying the foundation for a non-magical green army. Check it out if you'd like, as it's still very much in its' infancy...putting it gently. Thanks!

Link:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3181799#post3181799

Edit: Oh, and darkangeldentist, it's really funny...the more I work at it, the more the VC seem to actually be a definite contender for non-magical(kinda..you know) army honours....which I honestly hadn't even thought of at the beginning of this. Of course, in hind sight it makes sense, buuut...there ya go. I have yet to get any comments on the VC army list I whipped up and posted, but I'm looking forward to what takes place. The link to it is on the first page of this thread, I believe...you know, just for all you skippers.

Firebreather
06-01-2009, 02:29
So, as the discussion in this thread seems to have calmed down a little, I'll take this time to mention, shamelessly and selfishly, that I've got two(apparently even moderately decent) non-magical army lists in the army list forum, and they're actually holding up to scrutiny fairly well...thus far, anyway.

So, it seems that offensive magical capabilities aren't the be-all and end-all of Warhammer afterall, eh? I'm starting to get the feeling that a lot of you, maybe even most of you already knew this little fact, and that I'm behind in class here;) Either way, newly learned or old news, it's good news for me for now.

So, for convenience, I'll post the two links to the current non-magical armies I've got up(they've been updated recently as well, nudge nudge) so you can take a look and maybe even indulge me and leave a comment if the mood strikes you. I will say this, though, this thread has already been insanely helpful and inspirational in my newly-decreed non-magical lifestyle....seriously, everyone who has responded and discussed has been amazing. Thanks so much, and I say let's keep it going!

Let's open the floor to discussion involving anything in regards to anti-magic and no-magic armies and tactics, magical items that help, etc...So, basically everything we've been talking about up to now, and then some more. I don't know...this thread could go on a little longer and eventually die out, alone and forgotten. OR, and this is the better option I believe, it could become a resource, being added to from time to time by all of us who eschew the use of spellcasting for the most part, and know the true way of Warhammer. Either way, this has been very valuable to me, and hopefully not solely to me;) I don't wanna feel like the slow kid...

So, whatever you have to say in regards to magic in Warhammer, this would be the place I suppose.

Links:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177292 <---VC
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177313 <----O&G

Vilicate
06-01-2009, 07:37
I've had a lot of sucess with a Dark Elf army with no magic:

Dreadlord w/ Ring, Soulrender and 1+ AS
Master BSB w/ Reverse Wardsave
2 x 25 Spearmen w/ FC
2 x 24 Spearmen w/ FC
2 x 5 Harpies
2 x 10 Crossbowmen w/ Shields
2 x Cold One Chariot
1 x 7 Shades w/ Great Weapons
1 x 8 Shades w/ Great Weapons
2 x War Hydra

It's a really fun army to play - it's got a lot of shooting and movement, and some really great CC with ranks and flanks and whatnot. The high model count, as well as harpies to take care of some mages or warmachines means that I often get to ignore the magic missles and damage and out manuver for the win.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
06-01-2009, 13:35
I have never played against wood elves but for some reason i wood elf list with nothing more than a scroll caddy seem viable to me i dont know why because the thought of magic missiles hitting wood elf troops is rather entertaining.
I wont say dwarves or tomb kings because they are the obvious choices i suppose (not to hate on anyone who has said them because they would have been my response without reading the above posts! :)
I think empire could do well with just scroll caddies they can still fight (hehe insert snide laugh from my swordmasters!!! ) and they can shoot well. Orcs and goblins can probably do well with just caddies but you have to admit that their magic is entertaining for both sides. Lizardmen would do very well with or without magic i believe they are tough and have missiles and fight like crazed tyrannasaurus. Couldnt see vampire counts without magic and i have played almost zero games with my coneheads without magic so i dont know how they would do. Fragile and magic is dandy to keep them alive but they can shoot and fight well no questions asked. Brettonia has only caddies besides maybe the enchantress because no offense the damsels arent very good IMO. They are tough and have those gnarly ward saves to deal with the few that break their silly armour! They are cool too.
Good luck

Harwammer
06-01-2009, 16:07
It hasn't been mentioned yet but Khorne beastmen do well without any magic.

Each khorne hero, chariot, minotaur unit or bestigor unit gives your army an extra dispel dice. A typical 2250 khorne BoC army may have 9 dispel dice!

Beasts of chaos rely on movement and sacrifice based tactics. They are a lightly armoured guerilla force.

Dark_Mage99
06-01-2009, 16:41
Dark Elves can do fantastically with no magic. Joe Sturge over at TWF is currently proving this with his version of his "suicide elves".

The druchii have perhaps the best anti-magic item in the game, which forces miscasts on any double - and they have cheap troops, decent fighters and plenty of magical items to load them out with.

Arguleon-veq
06-01-2009, 17:04
I dont think that Orc and Gob list really takes enough advantage of the magic defence O&G can get. With how low in the power tier O&G are, and how powerful magic has become, you really give yourself a great chance by shutting down expensive enemy magic phases. You dont even need a BSB.

I think at least the Spirit Totem [on a unit of Big Uns, OR the BSB].
+ Night Gob Shaman with the Staff of Stealin.

Gives 7 Dispel with -1 Enemy power for effectively 8 Dispel.

What you really have to think about when not taking magic is killing off enemy Wizards. I like Chariots for that, it allows you to cause decent damage to a unit, whilst also putting at least 4 attacks on squishy wizards. As Wizards are often easier to kill than the Warriors that surround them, it allows you to get a higher combat res than normal. So for Orcs, Orc Chariots are great at this job, even cabable of killing hard casters like Vamps with 3 S4 + 2 S5 all going on the Vamp.

Empire are another great choice for a none magical army. You can get 7 Dispel Dice, then you can get 7 bound in there too for quite a reliable magic phase of your own, which will always see you get at least a few off a turn. 3 Priests, Arch Lector, War Alter. It makes for an effective army. I am doing the same with a Middenheim themed army and using Priests of Ulric. Empire also have some nice tricks with regards to anti magic such as Aldreds Casket of Sorcery on a Pegasus Captain. Stealing enemy spells, stopping them casting it ever again and unleashing it as a bound right back at them, on top of that the Captain on Peg makes a nice mage hunter himself.

Another that I dont think has been mentioned yet is high elves.

You can make an army based around 3-4 elite units and all of those units can be almost immune to magic. BSB with Banner of the World Dragon for a unit immune to magic. Captain with the Robes in another unit for a 2+ Ward vs magic. Magic Res 2 on another unit coupled with 2 pool dispel and +1 to dispel. You can have the Annulian Crystal on a Lvl1 Wizard for 2 extra dispel and -1 enemy power. It can make for a very effective army.

Beasts with plenty of Khorne Chariots makes an impressive dispel pool too.