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maxwell123
28-04-2005, 22:55
Okay, there's been a lot of threads on fixing ranked infantry lately on the various WH forums on the net.

To help with discussions, I've compiled a list of all single wound non-skirmishing infantry units. Missile units are not listed (except combined missile/fighty units like Sea Guards).

I've listed each unit's leadership and point cost. Some units don't have a specific cost, but a point cost range which means they have equipment options and their cost can vary depending on what they take.

Personally, I think the best solution for ranked infantry is to have a drilled/disciplined rule affecting single wound infantry units with a base leadership of 8 or more in their profile.

Disciplined
Ranked infantry units with a base leadership of 8 or more in their profile receive a +1 combat resolution bonus if their combined Unit Strength is 10 or greater.
Skirmishers never count as disciplined. Also, any unit which is subject to the frenzy special rule (e.g. Witch Elves, Chaos Warriors of Khorne) can never benefit from this bonus, even if they lose frenzy by being defeated in a round of combat.
Note that this bonus only applies if the basic profile leadership of the troops in the unit is 8 or more. Units with a leadership of 8 or more due to a magic item, being near the general, accompanied by a character, or any other effect do NOT count as disciplined. Only those troops which have a natural leadership of 8 or more can gain the bonus for being disciplined.

Multiple wound monster units (Ogres, Minotaurs, Trolls, etc) would not benefit (and nor should they). Their goal is to kill lots of enemies and they accomplish that good enough as is. They don't need a boost IMO.


There has been suggestions for basing any rank bonus for elite infantry on point cost or weapon skill, but I think that would be a bad idea. Leadership should be the determining factor.

Also, if you look down the list, the units that merit such a boost are all Ld8+ anyway.

CHAOS

Chaos Warriors (Ld 8): 14-18pts (+cost of mark)
Chosen Chaos Warriors (Ld 8): 20-24pts (+cost of mark)
Marauders (Ld5): 5-9pts
Daemonettes (Ld8): 15pts
Plaguebearers (Ld8): 16pts
Bloodletters (Ld8): 16pts
Horrors (Ld8): 15pts

HIGH ELVES

Spearelves (Ld8): 11pts
Sea Guards (Ld8): 15-16pts
Swordmasters (Ld8): 13pts
White Lions (Ld8): 13pts
Phoenix Guards (Ld9): 15pts
Handmaidens (Ld8): 20pts

DARK ELVES

Corsairs (Ld8): 10pts
Warriors (Ld8): 7-12pts
Executioners (Ld8): 11pts
Witch Elves (Ld8): 13pts
Black Guard (Ld9): 16pts

BRETONNIANS

Men at arms (Ld6): 5pts

EMPIRE

Free Company (Ld7): 5-6pts
Spearmen (Ld7): 6-7pts
Swordsmen (Ld7): 7pts
Halberdiers (Ld7): 6-7pts
Greatswords (Ld 8): 12pts
Flagellants (Ld10): 11pts

ORCS & GOBLINS

Goblins (Ld6): 2-4pts
Night Goblins (Ld5): 2-3pts
Orc Boyz (Ld7): 5-8pts
Big ‘Un Orc Boyz (Ld7): 7-10pts
Savage Boyz (Ld7): 6-10pts
Big ‘Un Savage Boyz (Ld7): 8-12pts
Black Orcs (Ld8): 10-13pts

SKAVEN

Clanrat Slaves (Ld5): 2-5pts
Clanrats (Ld5): 5-6pts
Stormvermin (Ld5): 8-9pts
Plague Monks (Ld5): 6-8pts

VAMPIRE COUNTS

Skeletons (Ld3): 8-11pts
Zombies (Ld2): 6pts
Grave Guards (Ld8): 12-15pts

TOMB KINGS

Skeleton Warriors (Ld3): 8-10pts
Tomb Guards (Ld8): 12pts

LIZARDMEN

Saurus Warriors (Ld8): 12-14pts (+ cost of blessed spawning/s if any)
Temple Guards (Ld8): 17-18pts

OGRE KINGDOMS

Gnoblars (Ld5): 2pts

DWARVES

Warriors (Ld9): 7-10pts
Miners (Ld9): 12pts
Hammerers (Ld9): 14-15pts
Ironbreakers (Ld9): 13pts
Longbeards (Ld9): 14pts
Troll Slayers (Ld9): 11pts

anarchistica
29-04-2005, 00:43
I'd exclude anyone who is Frenzied, Unbreakable, Crazed, failed an Animosity and/or Stupidity test and/ore suffers from Hatred.

I like the idea, but am not completely sure it would work in it's current form. I'm assuming it doesn't work for units who use the General's LD? Men-at-Arms using Knight's LD? Units using the LD of a character in the unit? Skaven who have their LD boosted by their rank bonus?

And don't you think that whomever it affects, WS4 should also be a requirement? Horrors i don't see as being capable of anything warrior-ish and Sauruses sure as hell don't need it!

maxwell123
29-04-2005, 01:24
I like the idea, but am not completely sure it would work in it's current form. I'm assuming it doesn't work for units who use the General's LD? Men-at-Arms using Knight's LD? Units using the LD of a character in the unit? Skaven who have their LD boosted by their rank bonus?

The rule would be based on the base leadership characteristic in their profile. Other factors such as what you've mentioned above would not count.


And don't you think that whomever it affects, WS4 should also be a requirement? Horrors i don't see as being capable of anything warrior-ish and Sauruses sure as hell don't need it!

Actually, I think Saurus could use it too. They suffer from the same problem as other elite infantry at the moment and aren't used that often.

Good point about Horrors, but they are just one unit. If this rule was implemented next edition, then when the HoC book is redone, the bonus could be removed from Horrors. It isn't a huge deal though.


The idea behind the rule is to even out horde infantry and elite infantry in combat (elite infantry will get the +2 rank bonus for their second rank, hordes will get outnumbering).
Elite infantry will be better against heavy cavalry, especially really large heavy cavalry units who would get the outnumbering bonus even against most horde units.

maxwell123
29-04-2005, 01:29
I'd exclude anyone who is Frenzied, Unbreakable, Crazed, failed an Animosity and/or Stupidity test and/ore suffers from Hatred.

Agree about frenzy, crazed and stupidity.

Hatred I disagree on. Dark Elves v. High Elves or Dwarves v. Orcs & Goblins for example are still highly disciplined and should benefit from the rule.
Besides, hatred can often make you more determined and strengthen your resolve even more (of course, it can at times have the reverse effect too), but I think elite infantry with hatred should still benefit from the drilled/disciplined rule.

Unbreakable units (including elite Undead) should also still benefit IMO.

anarchistica
29-04-2005, 03:37
Hmm, if you would implement this Men-at-Arms would still suck, along with tons of other units (Stormvermin, Grave Guard with halberds, etc) so it's not a perfect fix.

People suffering from Hatred are all but disciplined, what with always pursueing. Call it drilled instead than.

And Undead aren't Unbreakable, so that's not an issue.

What if there is a character with lower Ld in the unit? What if part of the unit has lower Ld?

maxwell123
29-04-2005, 05:03
Hmm, if you would implement this Men-at-Arms would still suck, along with tons of other units (Stormvermin, Grave Guard with halberds, etc) so it's not a perfect fix.

Well, the idea is not a complete fix in itself. Changing a couple of weapon rules in conjunction with this would help.

Men at arms don't suck. They are cheap infantry and much better for their points than a lot of other infantry in the game (read:virtually all Elves, Chaos Warriors, Saurus Warriors, etc). Multiple large units of Men at arms can be created for a fairly low cost.



And Undead aren't Unbreakable, so that's not an issue.

Well, they basically are unbreakable, but with an added caveat. They don't take break tests and are immune to psychology, but suffer an extra wound for each point they lose a combat by.


What if there is a character with lower Ld in the unit? What if part of the unit has lower Ld?

Unit would still benefit if there's a character with lower ld. It goes off the base leadership of the TROOPS in the unit, not any characters.


On top of the Disciplined rule, give halberds armour piercing and expensive infantry will suddenly become a lot more useful.

anarchistica
01-05-2005, 20:42
Men at arms don't suck. They are cheap infantry and much better for their points than a lot of other infantry in the game (read:virtually all Elves, Chaos Warriors, Saurus Warriors, etc). Multiple large units of Men at arms can be created for a fairly low cost.
Saurus Warriors rule, and so do Chosen CW. No one uses M@A.


Well, they basically are unbreakable, but with an added caveat. They don't take break tests and are immune to psychology, but suffer an extra wound for each point they lose a combat by.
They don't have the Unbreakable rule, that's the point.


Unit would still benefit if there's a character with lower ld. It goes off the base leadership of the TROOPS in the unit, not any characters.
What if half the unit is Ld7? And stuff that reduces Ld doesn't effect them? I think it should, making them dumber and all.