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xragg
05-01-2009, 22:37
Is there a difference from being in contact with and being inside a piece of terrain?

Chicago Slim
05-01-2009, 23:04
Well, it should be obvious that there's some boundary at which you "draw the line" on the terrain. I would think it's also obvious that there is no way to avoid some effects of terrain while gaining others, except at defined in the rules (if any part of the unit is touching difficult ground, the entire unit slows for it, but you only get cover if half the unit is in cover).

My sense of it is that your question really comes down to, where is that boundary line drawn-- or, more concisely, does "on the line" count as in or out?

The BRB doesn't really say. In my local group, we're in the habit of declaring things like "It's my intention that this model is inside this terrain" or "I'm going to try to stay clear of this terrain while I wheel", and giving our opponents an opportunity to say either "Fair 'nuff" or "erm, I don't think so..."

So far, that method has worked well, even when we take it to tournaments...

Necromancy Black
06-01-2009, 00:37
We use alot of bright green and blue felt to make forests and water terrain, so it's easy to see the exact edge of the terrain. Basically if you on the edge of the terrain your counted as being in for purposes of movement and such.

xragg
06-01-2009, 01:41
Well, let me expand my question. What I originally asked is the key question of whether you can harm a unit with tree singing after you move the wood into contact with the unit. Does this change either of your responses or prompt someone else to chime in on the question for me?

Ghilleman
06-01-2009, 02:10
Well, let me expand my question. What I originally asked is the key question of whether you can harm a unit with tree singing after you move the wood into contact with the unit. Does this change either of your responses or prompt someone else to chime in on the question for me?

Well, it becomes a game of semantics, but I'd say no. The spell defines that the wood stops moving once it comes in contact a unit, and in order to go all killer-tree with it, they need to be at least partially within it, and I don't consider the two the same. In the former, the unit/forest are touching bases, and in the latter they overlap. It's also illegal to move the wood when there are enemies inside, and they need to be inside the wood for killer-trees, so I wager it's illegal to move the woods in such a way that enemies are counted as being inside.

Necromancy Black
06-01-2009, 06:23
Ah, in that case I would go with the above, saying that because the tree must stop at the unit it's not inside for purposes of tree-singing.

Yes, this kinda goes against what I said before, but there are no set rules and this is probably the one my group plays the loosest.

Neckutter
06-01-2009, 06:24
if your model is in base contact with the forest, you are not "in or partially in" the forest. so tree singing doesnt work if you spam it because you cant actually make the trees envelope a unit.

sorry Welves!

Rikkjourd
06-01-2009, 08:01
The BRB doesn't really say. In my local group, we're in the habit of declaring things like "It's my intention that this model is inside this terrain" or "I'm going to try to stay clear of this terrain while I wheel", and giving our opponents an opportunity to say either "Fair 'nuff" or "erm, I don't think so..."

So far, that method has worked well, even when we take it to tournaments...

I just want to say to anyone reading this thread that this is a very good method Chicago Slim suggested, use it! Like "These models are out of LOS now, right?" or if your opponent tries to hide and you think you can see him then you can say "I still have LOS so I can still shoot them next turn if you put the models there, move slightly to the right and they are safe IMHO".

This completely nullifies any "I see you - no you don't - yes I do - no, you are a *********** ***** - no you are" arguments. It also comes with a big benefit for us who are very clumsy or like to drink while gaming or both: if you accidentally knock over a hiding model it is OK because it was already agreed on whether it was in cover or not so no trouble putting it back up.

DeathlessDraich
06-01-2009, 08:31
Well, let me expand my question. What I originally asked is the key question of whether you can harm a unit with tree singing after you move the wood into contact with the unit. Does this change either of your responses or prompt someone else to chime in on the question for me?

It will require Euclidean geometry to distinguish 'being in contact' and 'within'.:D
The Tree singing rules does distinguish the two phrases elsewhere (moving a unit in the woods; inflicting hits etc) and therefore it would be correct to extend that further - i.e. a unit that is in contact with a tree-sung wood is not within it.

Atrahasis
06-01-2009, 08:35
If you consider the unit within the woods because you've moved the woods into contact with it, then you can't then move the woods away from the unit, which is odd to say the least.

xragg
08-01-2009, 13:02
If you consider the unit within the woods because you've moved the woods into contact with it, then you can't then move the woods away from the unit, which is odd to say the least.

Well, since the spell specifically states that the woods stops moving once it comes into contact with an unit, that alone would prevent you from moving the wood again after contacting an unit. When you start the movement of the woods, you are already in contact with an unit, and must immediately stop, thereby not moving at all.


No rule really addresses the issue of being in contact versus being inside a peice of terrain. The only correlation we could think of was moving into a building. To move into a building, a model only has to come into contact to be allowed to occupy the building. This rule equates being in contact with being inside of a terrain feature (building). Albeit, a correlation like this is no proof either way, but definiately opens the possibility that there is no difference between being in contact and being within something.

Anyway, thank you for your opinions on this subject.

Chicago Slim
08-01-2009, 22:33
Yeah, I think that the building example is a poor one (because, for starters, buildings are also impassible terrain, and can ONLY be entered by one class of units-- infantry-- and only if there's no other unit already inside...)

As for Tree Singing specifically, I think that the rules as written are pretty clear. I summarize them here: you can either move the trees, or you can damage an enemy unit..

In order to use the tree-moving version, there can be "no enemy models within it". To use the damage version, there must at least one enemy unit "even partially within" (which I read as "within or partially within") the wood.

It seems to me to be quite clear that "in contact" with the wood is meant to exclude "even partially within", and vice versa. This seems perfectly reasonable to me, and makes it very easy to distinguish which version of the spell you may cast on any given wood: If there's enemy WITHIN the wood, you cast for damage. If there's not, you cast to move. The edgeline of "in contact" is implicitly defined by this to not be "in contact".


So, no moving and then damaging, at least not until the enemy unit actually moves into the wood (either of their own accord, or else by some compulsion).