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isidril93
07-01-2009, 20:00
i just back into high elves after a rather daemony and black templary time, so i decided to write a tactica as the one right now is more of a 'give your ideas' sort of things and the current 'official' thread about high elves is of 6th

OVERALL

high elves have a couple of things which symbolize them, mainly their use of speed of asuryan and their army layout.

speed of asuryan
this basically allows you to strike first which obviously opens the option of a great weapons to characters without the fear of dying.

army layout
2 core, 6 special and 4 rare is very useful allowing the player to not use the weaker core and go straight for the strong stuff. it also shows how elite an army is.

CHARACTERS (non-special)

Prince
a ld10 (the highest possible) character with good ws. i personally think the best way to field him is either on foot with

1.great weapon, armour of caledor, vambraces of defense, amulet of light/gem of courage
offer a hard to kill prince with a rerollable 2+as, and a 4+ ward save

2.the white sword, armour of caledor, guardian phoenix, talisman of loec
a much more killy, character kill, my preffered option.

3.radiant gem of hoeth (cant remember what its called right now, tell me if its something else), armour of protection, talisman of loec. get him bear's anger

to me these seem to be best ideas (if anyone has any other post them and i will add).

on a horse the ideal (to me) would be
starlance, vambraces of defense, barded elven steed, dragon armour, shield
a s7, no as, on the charge with a rerollable 2+as, 4+ ward
personally i would use this to take on chaos warriors or even some monsters (if you have none of your own)

the strongest version of a prince would be on a star dragon, although the other dragons shouldnt be forgotten. for example the sun dragon could be taken over a griffon as its better and only 30 pts more for a scaly skin save, +1 t and +1 w(if you have a free hero slot). also the moon dragon is a good contendor for a non-tpurney list.
anyway this is how i would field the prince:

1.star lance, armour of caledor, guardian phoenix, talisman of loec
this is a beast in combat, capable of pretty much killing everything but attack in the flank, thats important. also a monster killer.

2.halberd, armour of caledor, vambraces of defense, amulet of light
not as strong as the other version but harder to kill and better in consequant rounds. also gives magic attacks to the dragon

3.halberd, bow of the seafarer, armour of caledor,talisman of protection
you could field this one on a sun dragon as it will not really enter much combat and then only combats which it can win.

if you want to field a prince on a i would also suggest the ones above, maybe taking no.3

Arcmage

the lord lv wizard, lv3-4
i would take him to lv 4 as it makes him really one of the best mages in the game, combining him with book of hoeth for a cheaper teclis. the choice of magic items vry but if you take a wizzie lord then i suggest using it for damage so stawood staff is another good option, or seerstaff of saphery and then choose the spells. taking a horse is good for him as it lets him move around more, get into better positions and keep out of enemy charge range.
the choice of magic will be discussed later.

i would either take a horse or maybe an eagle. the dragons might be a tad too expensive but are good to consider as they can make him into a potential fighter. if you do decide to take a dragon pck you fights carefull and give choose bears anger for him. basically he will become like a prince (with less ws) but do not take this option for use as a unit breaker. you're better off with a prince on dragon and two mages.

Noble

The hero version of the prince and the bsb. in under 2k he is good but over 2k take a prince. either use him as a fighter or as a bsb.

Fighter

on foot
a great weapon, armour of caledor and guardian phoenix are my choice. around 140 points, good ld and capable of taking down enemy characters. another option is white sword, mask of the merlord, dragon armour for a chacter killer. aslo a great weapon, bow and shadow armour will make a unit of shadow warriors into a potential unit kill (especially with hatred)

on horse
starlance, enchanted shield and dragon armour are good. add him to a unit of dragon princes and you get quite a unit killer. lance, guardian phoenix and talisman of saphery could also make a good character killer.

on eagle
on of the advantages of having a noble, this guy can take down skirmishers, wizards, warmachine crew and other things:

skirmishers
starlance, heavy armour, enchanted shield, longbow. high strength with make short work of any skirmishing unit that is meant to shoot, as well as things like squig riders.

wizards, crew
reaver bow, lance, heavy armour, enchanted shield
very similar to the other option but this has 3 s5 shots hitting on a 2. use it to take out those pesky lone characters and cannon crew.

BSB

there are two banners which are only available to the bsb, the battle banner and the banner of the world dragon. the battle banner is one of the best giving d6 combat resolution, which when combined with an already strong unit give a deadly combo. there then is the BOTWD, making the unit immune to magic targeted at them. note that this include friendly magic so it has a down side.

Mage

your standard mage, can reach lv 2. i take 2 of these in 2k as they give quite a good magic defense and can be quite good at offense as well. taking on with the annulian crystal and the other with dispel scrolls or staff of sorcery will give a really good magic defense. on the other hand the starwood staff s very good, allowing your mage to have a +1 to cast, leeting more spells get casted easily.

Dragon Mage

here's a change from the 6ed. a standard mage on a sun dragon. the only thing is that it doesnt give the +1 to dispel but that can be solved by taking another mage. he gets an extra dice when casting so his chances of getting a double 6 or 1 will increase. so i would take staff of solidity and either guardian phoenix or sacred incense to help him survive. the dragon isnt that strong but is stronger that, for example, a griffon. the mage can only take fire magic but sword of rhuin is a must (if you dont want to go into combat without something to swing). bet used in coordination with other units, hitting the flank.

isidril93
08-01-2009, 20:38
CORE

with only needing 2 cores the army usually will have little core but they should not be ignored as they can add buk to the army.

Spearmen

probably the best core high elves have. 16 ws4 s3 attacks are amazing against a horde army. zombies, gobbos, empire troops etc.. are all easy for these. the only problem is elites and armoured core. they will struggle against these so let the elites take care of these. in smaller games i use these to deliver my nobles and a character could be included in spearmen as they will give the unit that extra puch. i like fielding them in large units of 20 (5*4) but i think ill try 18 (6*3) for more attacks

Archers

not that great for their cost. other archers are either better or cheaper (or both). i dont field more than 11 in 2k, just to keep my mage in. i would suggest this for a gunline army http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3192738#post3192738
read elves all the way's second post.
not much else to say about them really, just field small units of 10-12 (unless army is as above or similar). the main advantage over spears is that they are more efficient at the minimum number.

Lothern Sea Guard

i dont really like these as if you use them as shooting (so wide) they wont be good at cc and you'd might as well take archers and when fielded as cc they would be useless at shooting (just the stand and shoot is the only advantge they have over spearmen). 13 pts with a shield is too much imo.

SPECIAL

These are where the high elves really excel in, with 6 slots and 9 choices

Swordmasters

ill start wth probably the best unit the high elves have. 2 ws6 s5 attacks are good, great actually.taking a unit of 15 is amazing, able of holding their own against almost everything the opponent can throw at them. they excel though against t3, as4+ units, where they will just slaughter a path through them. basically other elves, the daemon core (not nurgle), and human infantry are pretty much a treat for these guys. the only thing to avoid really is chariots as ive had CO chariots rip them apart and shooting will have the same effect. casting shield of saphery will help them survive for much longer. taking a unit of 15 or units of 7 are usually good. the only thing is not to bother putting a character in them, spears, phoenix guard and white lions need them more.

White Lions

imo a very good bodyguard, stubborn, resistant to shooting and really strong. plus they need the extra attacks from a prince. a unit with prince (with GW) will have 9 s6 attacks. best against heavy armoured infantry and cavalary (yes im looking at you chaos warriors). only problem might be lack of attacks. taking a large unit of 14 fora prince is good as well as taking units iof 7 as they can make use of terrain.

isidril93
09-01-2009, 18:32
Phoenix Guard

The last of the ranked elite infantry these warriors cause fear and have a 4+ ward. they are probably the weakest of the 3 but can take the most damage. they are only armed with halberds and have 1 attack each so putting a charcter in them is pretty useful. i would advise against msu as they dont cause enough damage but fer causing in the flank is always great. i woud take in units of 15 to 20

Shadow Warriors

the only high elf skirmishers and scouts. i like them as they add fire rom close up and are more worth it than archers imo as they can do well in combat agaisnt easy foes with ws 5 and hatred. they are a bit lacking when in comparison to shades as these have no weapon option which would have been useful. very good against dark elves with always rerolling to hit. use them to take out warmachine crew, other skirmishers, flyers and the like.

Dragon Princes

The best cavalary that the high elves can get and one of the best in the game. a unit of 5 is usually enough but obviously more (to 10) will only make the unit stronger although i think 2 units of 5 is better than one of 10. give them the banner of arcane defense to improve their survivablilty against magic.

isidril93
10-01-2009, 17:31
Silver Helms

these were an old core unit that was moved to special which thus does not make them very popular since their dragon princes contepart are much better. might sevre as a screening unit or else as a bodygurd to a general and a bsb as these should get eough kill by themselves. using them as flankers is also good since, even though they are not unit breakers they are still fast and will ignore any opponet rank. combining them with n other unit is best.

Ellyrion Reavers

The high elves' fast cavalary. not that but they are a bit too expensive for a 5+as, a bow and a spear. they will be killed easily but they have been known to do quite some damage killing things like giants cos of stand and shoot then asf. can take down some small units, such as skirmishers and archers but best used againstwarmachines and mages. the only thing is that shaodw warriors aslo fill this niche so one or the other could be taken. they might have slightly different things but work best against the same opponents. make use of their 18" charge range as that is the 2nd longest (1st are the flyers) and hey can beat most small units if equipped with spears. like i they have been known to beat giants

Lion Chariot

i love this chariot, ever sice i got never had a game without it. small and agile (comapred to cavalary) that packs a REALLY big punch (6 s5 + impact) who isnt scared of that. best thing is that since they are chariots 2 can easily fit in te flank of a large unit. avoid prolonged comabt as it isnt that tough as other chariots like the co one have t5. they can more or less hit anything but combining charges with another unit is excellent

Tiranoc Chariot

This is our 'swift' chariot, with bows and 9"movement. they are not as strong as the wl chariot but for the price of 1 wl cariot and a bit more you can get 2 tiranoc. i dont think they wil be able to take out any units by themselves though so 2 as a pair or with a unit in the fron is needed.

isidril93
11-01-2009, 18:31
RARE

There are only 2 rare choices and they arent much , just little add ons which fulfil niches

Repeater Bolt Throwers

The only warmachine in the high elf force yet it outshines almost all the others (except reaper bolt throwers, can anyone guess why?). its great, take 2. they offer the support from afar that archers dont, with good strength and good ap. 6 s4 shots or 1 bolt thrower shot, your choice

Great Eagles

the high elven flyer, used as a march blocker or warmachine hunter. not that bad although the addition of a noble on it will make it quite strong. very useful and with the 4 rare spots it does not have to compete with the rbt.

thats is more or less the unit tactica.

cicero
11-01-2009, 19:21
i like reaver knights
they have habit of sacrificing themsemlves by blocking charges and stopping people from marching.against gunlines they are a mst have as 18" closes gap and they usually do ok for a round of combat with the spears

WhiteKnight
11-01-2009, 23:45
I guess I'll contribute to this tactica by adding a Spells / Magic info.

Shield of Saphery -
The easiest spell to get off, and very useful when using it on elite infantry. With a 5+ to cast, you should always have at least 1 mage with this spell to protect your swordmasters, or even add some more resistance on your dragon princes.

Curse of Arrow Attraction -
The name says it all. This spell is THE killer of infantry and cavalry alike. Reroll failed misses with archers and bolt throwers means a more likely chance of causing panic, or eliminating a rank! 6+ casting value and with BS 4expect to make many low AS armies very sad.

Courage of Aenarion -
Great for locking your opponent in combat for awhile. Making all High Elf units within 12" stubborn of the caster is a great add-on to spearmen and your units around.
Fury of Khaine -
Our only true magic missile. It packs a punch on low toughness units with 2D6str 4 hits. On a fairly easy casting value, you can make this spell one thats almost necessary for your magic arsenal.

Flames of the Phoenix -
Using this spell makes your opponent want it dispelled ASAP. If you're lucky, you could get up to S9 if you execute this right and your opponent fails to dispel it. This one spell can weaken a unit before combat so you can finish the unit off with little or no difficulty.

Vaul's Unmaking -
The special character killer. By picking ANY magic item a unit or character posesses, you will take Archaon's 3+ward save and make it just a regular AS. Make Vlad Von Carstein go down and stay down by getting rid of his ring. Great spell overall!

Drain Magic -
Not as good as 6th ed's edition but still great for magic defense. By getting this spell off, you add +3 to casting values. Get this off and make it +6 and so on. Make that pesky envocation of nehek 1 dice roll become 2 dice or even 3!

isidril93
12-01-2009, 20:45
nice magic tactica...ok guys that the magic tactica from now on (saved me time).

ARMY LIST TACTICA


this is more or less a list of some a the list high elves could and should take to make the ultimate out of the list.

Double Dragon

Probably the best of the list, might not be liked much cos its the best but in a tactica you only expect tactics for the best. consists of 2 dragons, one a prince (or arcmage but im not sure if anyone uses that) and a dragon mage. 2 units of 10 archers or units of spears (to put up numbers). taking the rest of the points as dragon princes is very good as these are fast enough to keep up with the dragons and are the fluffiest unit in a dd list.

Close Combat Infantry

Probably my favourite type of list. a prince and 2 mages as characters. for core large units of spearmen and some (not more than units of 10) archers. then swordmasters, phoenix guard and white lions with some shadow warriors. one or two chariots and maybe a small flanking cavalary units. the main thing of this is largish units of the high elf elites which can protect themselves and will crush most units in cc. watch out for gunline army as the infantry is quite slow so the use of shield of saphery will greatly help, reducing about a third of the kill that should have occured.

Magic Infantry
very much like the list above although 3 mages and a prince with rradiant gem of hoeth and he will take bears anger. a LOT of spells will be cast so destruction in the form of fury of khaine and protection from shield of saphery should protect the main units and give the prince a chance to cast his spell where he will be a monster. taking a lot of units of infantry (especially spearmen so that your numbers will rise is a good idea.

Magic List

probably the second most destructive list. 4 mages (one who is usually teclis) will obliterate the opponent this is like a magic gunline. good against foot sloggers though watch out for cavalry as those will close in quickly.

Gunline

very much the list above with a lot of mundane shooting involved. look at the gunline tactica in the above posts for ideas

Cavalary

2 units of archers will provide plenty of points for you to spend on reavers and princes and maybe some silver helms. a small compact army but deadly with a prince with star lance in a unit of dps being scary for your opponent.

Balance

The list most of use take, a little bit of everything. probably the funnest list to play and while it doenst focus on one particular phase will will do well in ll of them. a jack of all trades if you know what i mean

isidril93
13-01-2009, 20:09
SPECIAL CHARACTERS

Tyrion

the big cheese on the high elf army book. s7 and almost unkilable (by he standards anyway). i would take him in a unit of siverhemls as these have enoughnumbers when comapared to DP to give him a decent body guard as all shooting will be aimed at this unit

Teclis

one of the best casters in the game (if not THE best). has all the spells of any lore he chooses and his items are an array of the best arcane items possible.

WhiteKnight
13-01-2009, 22:41
Tyrion = Beast. I did my math and he indeed has a -1+ save. Not a 0+ as the FAQ states. His armor gives 1+ then you count for being mounted so 0+, then the barding on Malhandir makes it a -1+ save. Take that Thorgrim Grudebearer!

Elves All The Way
14-01-2009, 00:12
It's still 0+, barding on Malhinder doesn't give him extra armour or affect his movement, so i don't really see why they gave him it besides to make him look cool, anyway
Caradrayan - one of my favourites, he's a decent fighter having the basic stats of a noble and the pheonix blade does some damage, but what makes him stand apart from the crowd is mark of asuryan, use him to challenge anybody and i mean every body n if he doesn't kill them then he'll G-Hard em to death!

isidril93
14-01-2009, 20:08
continued sp characters

Alith Anar

point by point the most worth it sp character as he has a better bow of the seafarer, armour of protection, sacred incesnce as well as scout, nagarythe hatred and half pursue distance

Eltharion

a good alternative between tyrion and teclis. is a very versatile character being a wizard and good fighty character at the same time. stormwing is better than a griffon (iirc). even better against grom.

Korhil

a high strength, stubborn 9 (wow!!!) character who will make a great addition to a unit of white lions. immune to poison so a potential assasin killer.

Caradryan

very good character, slightly more expensive than a noble. good in a challenge cos if he dies the opponent gets d6 wounds with no as. even better against a mounted character with d3 wounds. the best thing about him is against a herald of nurgle on palanquin. 3 flaming attacks that do d3 wounds. if he gets killed almost 5/6 chances the herald is dead...100% if he had caused a wound on him before (besides that regen and that 5+ward). he also has mr3. put him in a unit of white lions and laugh (more the mwahaha im powerful laugh rather than the that unit is so funny laugh)

Preacher
15-01-2009, 00:28
..you forgot to mention that Caradryan provides any unit he is in with MR3. Put him in a unit of White Lions...and laugh...just laugh.

WhiteKnight
15-01-2009, 01:11
Yeah, caradryan + white lions = uber laughing. I would make this one skaven player just be like, OMG WTF! With that combo.

High Loremaster
15-01-2009, 04:56
..you forgot to mention that Caradryan provides any unit he is in with MR3. Put him in a unit of White Lions...and laugh...just laugh.

Hehe, it's quite fun.

"You want to shoot at them? Go ahead, they have a 3+ armor save.

Oh, you're casting a magic missile at them now? Well then, I'll just be throwing these three extra dice...

Well, now we're in combat. Let's see. I strike first at WS5 and S6. In the absolutely ridiculous situation that you win combat, I'm stubborn on Ld9."

...yea, I love 7th edition HE.

Anyway, back on topic. Good overview of the units and options available for HE. Long live the Asur!

selone
15-01-2009, 15:47
Hey guys, possible new recruit to high elves posting. A few questions before I plunge in.
Firstly is it possible to do a competitive high elf army WITHOUT using a dragon and using more than the req minimum core?
Secondly in 7th edition are there any high elves in numbers outside ulthuan? I was very interested in doing a HE army from a colony, outpost or garrison, a sea port maybe- anything a bit more vibrant and less insular than the ulthuan dwelling elves.

Condottiere
15-01-2009, 16:30
So I'm told.

As regards to High Elves, outside of Ulthuan, they seem to be concentrated in strategic naval ports, New World colonies, and Marienburg.

They might be some remnants in isolated pockets in the Old World, possibly Border Princes.

isidril93
15-01-2009, 19:46
look at the high elf map, not sure if 6 or 7ed though. there are at least 3 other high elf colonies

selone
15-01-2009, 20:18
Cool well I don't have 6th ed book and will be getting the armybook tomorrow I guess so I'll have a look in there for HE garrisons/outposts/colonies etc :)

Nuada
15-01-2009, 20:23
Do you mean the tower of stars, and the tower of the sun near the kingdoms of Ind?
The elven fortress and the fortress of dawn at the base of the southlands...
and citadel of dusk in lustrai?

i think those are all HE colonies. They're in the current book

Infact, check out page 13 in HE book, they have more

Condottiere
15-01-2009, 20:27
There's a difference between garrisons and colonies; garrison is a posting, colonizing means you displace the local inhabitants and permanently settle there.

selone
15-01-2009, 20:29
Thanks nuada will do tomorrow :)

Condottiere yes that's true you get garrison's in colonies but not colonies in garrison's. I've edited my original post to be clear I'd be interested in anywhere that had a large enough population of elves whether a colony, a garrison or even a group of elves in a trading port (even a human one cf marienburg).

WhiteKnight
16-01-2009, 01:50
High elves can be competitive without a dragon by going full on magic with strong infantry blocks to support your army. I usualy run an archmage, 3 mages, a block of spearmen, a block of archers, swordmasters in units of 7, white lions in 20 with a support unit of 10, 3 bolt throwers, and an eagle to rush behind and handle any cannons, loose mages, or anything else that may a potential danger.

WhiteKnight
19-01-2009, 15:44
Another thing to run is the semi-all cavalry list. Very fast, strong, very outnumbered. But thats not the big issue while Dragon princes have 2 attacks each.

W0lf
19-01-2009, 16:02
Few things to add;

Swordmasters want to be 7 wide in units of 14 or 7. Not 15 and 5 wide as i think your tactica suggests.

4 S5 attacks will very likely make up for the lost point of combat res for a rank aswell as reducing attacks back.

Also caradryan is S5 and lions are only stubborn on their ld not the characters.

I personally like the following as a core to a high elf force;

Archmage
lvl 4, ring of fury, dual scrolls

Banner of sorcery elsewhere...

2x Noble with Dragon armour and Great weapons. 1 as a bsb. Keep them cheap and hitty.

2x 17 lions with fc for nobles to join. 6x3 but can reform if needed for extra attacks.


Then anything you see fit.

isidril93
19-01-2009, 19:06
Few things to add;

Swordmasters want to be 7 wide in units of 14 or 7. Not 15 and 5 wide as i think your tactica suggests.

4 S5 attacks will very likely make up for the lost point of combat res for a rank aswell as reducing attacks back.

Also caradryan is S5 and lions are only stubborn on their ld not the characters.



7 wide is good very killy but i find that 15*5 works well becuase you are stronger in the flank. but i think i will try them like that.

caradryan is s5, did i say otherwise. also if korhil is included then they are ld9 stubborn. if caradryan then ld 8 stubborn

W0lf
19-01-2009, 19:51
no offence but 'stronger in the flank' is a dodgy arguement at best. You should really be getting flanked if playing right.

7x2 is definatly optimum.

Oh and another point, Dragon princes should be run 6 with Mus in my experience. thats the most pt-effective way i can see of running them.

Condottiere
19-01-2009, 21:45
Important heavy cavalry units should be at least seven wide if you have a character, since you need five R&F to qualify for Look Out Sir, one's a spare or the Champion, since he doesn't count as R&F.

W0lf
19-01-2009, 21:57
Thats another point. Champions are very rarely, if ever worth the pts in as opposed to another knight in 2 attack units.

7 wide is ok, i still feel 2+ units as 6 wide is better, 7 can be a tad unwieldy and if they get into combat unscathed that 1 model is waste. uppose its just personal opinion.

grhino
20-01-2009, 12:04
Another nice tactic is to add Kohril to Swordmasters. Characters with the stubborn rule nowadays also make the unit stubborn on their leadership, instead of sacrificing it like in 6th ed. Last time I used White Sword/Talisman of Loec Prince in White Lions and Kohril in Swordmasters, and this stubborn battleline was near unbreakable. In fact, it was so effective it did not need to test for breaking at all, killing all in their path!

But, contrary to most HE players: I love using mainly spearmen for my battle line. I already loved them in 6th ed., but figured they were overpriced. Now, they are stronger and cheaper. Massive amount of attacks can hold out against almost anything. Some time ago, a Stegadon charged in with 4 wounds remaining. It was dead before it made it's attacks (fluffed its impact hits)!

W0lf
20-01-2009, 13:36
Yeah funny thing that but id argue Caradyran adds more to Lions or Masters then Guard and Korhill is certainly best in any unit but white lions.

Clever the way they did that :wtf:

John Wayne II
20-01-2009, 19:44
What's the math on Spearmen? I have an idea for running big blocks of 24 Spearmen each. Is that viable? If not, what's a good unit size then?

isidril93
20-01-2009, 19:45
no offence but 'stronger in the flank' is a dodgy arguement at best. You should really be getting flanked if playing right.


but you also have to understand that if your opponent has a fast army (such as slaanesh daemons) and he is playing right then you will get flanked. forget the whole playing right thing cos that only happens if your opponent is playing wrongly.

also after killing a unit and purueing a unit could become quite vulnerable in its flank.

but i think i will put them 7*2 anyway.

Condottiere
20-01-2009, 19:53
For spearmen, you could have 7-7-7-5 formation, 26 models for both the rank bonus and maximized number of hits.

W0lf
20-01-2009, 20:11
What's the math on Spearmen? I have an idea for running big blocks of 24 Spearmen each. Is that viable? If not, what's a good unit size then?

Personally not a fan of HE spearmen.

They are BRILLIANT vs T3 4+ save troops...but as son as cavalry or T4 3+ save comes in they are pretty useless for the cost you pay.

Could just be me but they seem to die alot. Were i to field them id go for ether 18 (6x3) or 21 (7x3) for what i percieve as maximum gain.

Some maths for you;

Assuming blocks of 24 (6 wide im guessing?)
24 Spearmen, fc = 236 pts

VS
30 orc boys with shields and FC 205 pts
25 Empire swordsmen with FC = 170 pts
25 Dwarf warriors w/ shields and FC = 245 pts
12 Chaos warriors w shields and FC = 222 pts
And my personal fav. 5 chaos knights with MoK = 230 pts

All charging looks like this (numbers given as CR);

Orcs 6.36 > Spearmen 6.11 - Draw, odds slightly on orcs.
Empire swordsmen 4.6 < Spearmen 7.38 - Win by 2.
Dwarfs 5.82 > Spearmen 5.06 - dwarfs win by 1
Chaos warriors 6.42 > Spearmen 5.53 - draw but CW favour heavily
CW w/Halberd 7.46 > Spearmen 6.58 - same as above.
Knights 13.72 > Spearmen 5.53 - Knights massacre. Lose by 8 lol.


So you see the only fight they win if vs empire swordsmen otherwise draws (largely down to static) or losses. The problem is, most these units would never charge HE spearmen.

I must say the dwarf and CW results are interesting (so much so i did halberds as another option). CWs really are terrible... i mean these stats even assume they get to your lines in the first place.. oha nd with a rank, without that rank its a draw in spearmens favour.

Djekar
21-01-2009, 07:32
I have a question that is a little OT from the spearmen distaste going around (although I won't say it's not justified - I will add, however, that I hate all of the HE core choices, and so usually don't blame those who go minimum core.):

How do you guys deploy? I'm used to playing O&G or WoC where there are plenty of units that I can deploy just to throw my opponent off his game. Whenever I write up and try to play a HE force, I get slaughtered in the deployment phase. I know that a big part of this is because I usually have it so easy, but man am I at a loss for what to do.

I feel like the mobility of the army helps me make up for some of this, but unfavorable match ups early in the game keep me reeling from the very start. Help!

~Barge

Neknoh
21-01-2009, 10:54
I am not generally the person to go against the flow and attempt armies designed with one specific purpose in mind, however, with the daemons proliferating the scene and magic also being a strong contributing factor, I was thinking of what exactly to bring in order to design an anti-daemons army.

My thoughts went to the High Elven army for several reasons when it comes to creating a strong anti-army to the Daemons and, to an extent, the vampires. The largest difficulty would be in the choice of characters, seeing as there ARE characters out there which are relatively cheap and still able to properly combat regeneration blocks, flamers, even Blood Knights and Bloodthirsters out there.

Those are however, special characters, so I would say that two army-setups would be ideal for the creation of such an army, although, said setups could easely be limited to the character-choices.

Now, for the army, I was thinking of something allong the lines of

Tyrion
- ... 400 points

In my eyes, he can combat thirsters and Great Unclean Ones allike whilst also throwing out quite the decent hurt against regenerating vampires, plaguebearer regeneration blocks and is also immune to most of the spells from the Lore of Tzeentch (now that it has been errata-ed to have quite a handful of flaming spells).

High Elf Mage
- Level 2, Sigil of Asuryan... 175 points

High Elf Mage
-Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery, Powerstone... 185 points

High Elf Mage
- Level 2, Silver Wand, Powerstone, Dispell Scroll... 185 points

A decently strong magic offence and magic defence, this could be tuned to be completely anti-magic with only level one casters, one with the Sigil, one with the Staff of Sorcery and one with the Annulian Crystal, that's 5 (+1) Dispell Dice, a scroll and +2 to all attempts at dispelling.

However, as the list now stands, I can roll spells (and pick) from whichever Lore I feel needed to combat the enemy, the Seerstaff will probably be used to roll the Flames of the Phoenix whilst the other two will roll spells from the Lore of Fire (if a nurgle block is present).


10 Archers
- ... 110 points

10 Archers
- ... 110 points

Regretably expensive for a low combat potential, however, I feel these are still better than the Spearmen when it comes to facing daemons, since Fleshhounds will make a mess out of both units and these can at least contribute to SOME killing before dying horribly.

14 Swordmasters of Hoeth
- Full Command, Armour of Caledor, Standard of Balance... 310 points

14 Swordmasters of Hoeth
- Full Command, Amulet of Fire, Lion Standard... 285 points

These are the main frontal hitters of the army, bringing to bear champions immune to the Firestorm Blade found on thirsters and champions allike.

6 Dragon Princes of Caledor
- Musician... 190 points

6 Dragon Princes of Caledor
- Musician... 190 points

Anti-flamer and anti-horror units which are also rather mean to charge into most things found, they are also highly survivable to both the Lore of Fire and Metal.

Lion Chariot of Chrace
- ... 140 points

Lion Chariot of Chrace
- ... 140 points

They hit hard, really hard, they are also immune to the Fear of the Daemons, and, to add insult to injury, they cause impact hits.


This all comes to 2420 points, calculated from the Specials and up, so characters make out the final points, meaning that if I drop Tyrion, it comes to 2020 points. Now, a dropped Lion Chariot would allow me to upgrade one Mage to an Archmage, although, I wouldn't have the resources for additional items for him.

Still, the one with the Seer Staff would make for five spells from any lore he chooses, as well as sitting with a powerstone and a dispell scroll, I would say that that would be a rather decent tradeoff.

Meaning the list would be

Archmage
- Level 4, Silver Wand, Powerstone, Dispell Scroll... 310 points

High Elf Mage
- Level 2, Sigil of Asuryan... 175 points

High Elf Mage
-Level 2, Seerstaff of Saphery, Powerstone... 185 points

10 Archers
- ... 110 points

10 Archers
- ... 110 points

14 Swordmasters of Hoeth
- Full Command, Armour of Caledor, Standard of Balance... 310 points

14 Swordmasters of Hoeth
- Full Command, Amulet of Fire, Lion Standard... 285 points

6 Dragon Princes of Caledor
- Musician... 190 points

6 Dragon Princes of Caledor
- Musician... 190 points

Lion Chariot of Chrace
- ... 140 points

2005 points

W0lf
21-01-2009, 11:01
The list isnt half as scary without tyrion. Sorry but its just not.

Your counter to GDs is not briliant. I would go to the tyrion list and remove the chariots, then trim in places.

Flesh hounds are faster then the chariots and they will tear it apart on the charge, flamers will EASILY kill a lion chariot. AT T4 they are alot weaker then they look.

Neknoh
21-01-2009, 11:10
That is true, and I agree, Tyrion is indeed what makes the list click when it comes to Daemon removal, and I whole heartedly agree, the answers for Greater Daemons are not ideal, heck, they work against SOME bloodthirsters... but when they do work, well, 50 points of model shutting down 500+ points is nothing but great fun.

Even the Dragonprinces can charge a Bloodthirster once it is confirmed it is wielding the Hellfire Blade.

And I do agree on the Lion chariots, they are good against most armies, but on second thought, against daemons, not-so-much. Taking them out leaves 140 more points to be removed to fit Tyrion back in, this can be done either by dropping a wizard, dropping the levels and some gear (and thusly changing the gear to a more defence-focused set) or shaving some from the Swordmasters and the Dragonprinces.

Condottiere
21-01-2009, 11:15
Wouldn't Tyrion and a BSB not be a better match up than 3 mages, since two mages should be sufficient to neutralize the enemy magic phase while the above two mop up?

W0lf
21-01-2009, 11:17
For wizard set-ups id run a simple but effective;

Lvl 2
Staff of +1 to dispel

Lvl 2
dual scrolls

lvl 2
scroll.

Simple and a bit cheaper then what you have whilst obtaining the offensive stuff. ALso i wouldnt entirely knock spearmen out.. they are pretty good against daemon core exept bearers. T3 with a 5+ ward actually makes them as easy to kill as other spearmen.

Neknoh
21-01-2009, 11:24
well, I did consider something even meaner, Tyrion and Caradryan, a bomb, even if on foot (although with movement five) is still a bomb, should he get into combat with a vampire lord or a bloodthirster or similar, he is guaranteed to cause quite some damage. Heck, even against a Great Unclean One he has the potential to give half vp's.

Condottiere
21-01-2009, 11:28
I think the difference between Caradryan and a BSB is that Caradryan is a trap that might be avoided, and a BSB can be mobile, allowing you to set the pace of the game.

W0lf
21-01-2009, 11:40
But you put caradryan in swordmasters meaning you dont need the armour on oneand can drop 1 (so thats 40 pts of his price tag), and he gives them MR 3.

W0lf
21-01-2009, 11:42
Im now very very tempted to do a HE army :/

Itd have to be a chrace theme though (themes are so easy for HE so you should bother :p)

3 units of 18 with FC is 900 ts.

Thatd be my core. Then something like 2x 10 archers, 3 bolt throwers and 2 lion chariots.

thats 1700 pts... hmmm bsb and caddy, not sure how thatd work tbh.

cicero
21-01-2009, 12:10
against vc the vortex shard is woth taking as is the tricksters pedent against a magic heavy army

Condottiere
21-01-2009, 13:28
Trickster's Pendent plus Drain Magic.

isidril93
21-01-2009, 19:47
against daemons i would suggest a dragon as these are strong enough to take care of GD, as tyrion can get easily hit in the flank if he is put in a unit, which is a must.

therisnosaurus
21-01-2009, 22:59
the three level 2 mages is nice- a beautiful trick against daemons is to simply get all three to go lore of light and, kapow, you have 3 24" range magic missiles with strength 6 that are cast on a 5+... even magic heavy daemons may have trouble against that...

Lazarus15
21-01-2009, 23:18
I just realized that the staff that gives them +1 to dispell means you have an overall +2 to dispell....that is insanity. I want to try that.

cicero
21-01-2009, 23:37
another annoying thing to use against magic heavy armies is the annulian crystal.that drain magic ,pendent and the vortex shard would shut down any magic phase

Neknoh
21-01-2009, 23:39
against daemons i would suggest a dragon as these are strong enough to take care of GD, as tyrion can get easily hit in the flank if he is put in a unit, which is a must.

I would doubt the strength of a dragon being able to tackle a Dark Insanity thirster or being strong enough to kill a Great Unclean One before being killed itself.

And there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for Tyrion to go in a unit when he, on his own, wont loose out on attacks for getting flanked, provides a more mobile threat and will also provide yet another threatening unit. To add insult to injury, he's immune to large portions of the daemon magic as well as having both a 4+ ward AND a 4+ regeneration against all things he is not immune to.

NecronBob
22-01-2009, 01:50
Speaking of magic defense, what do you do with the null stone? I've been thinking about putting one on a lord on great eagle to use to try to slow down VCs, but I don't think it will work in that way. If I fly over to the wizard, he'll just move and then cast. Is the null stone only good for shutting down mahic weapons, banners, and such or are there other uses as well?

WhiteKnight
22-01-2009, 02:00
With the null stone, you can rush forward. Yeah its a waste of a lord choice, but getting rid of a mage or two and magic items could be helpful.

NecronBob
22-01-2009, 03:03
With the null stone, you can rush forward. Yeah its a waste of a lord choice, but getting rid of a mage or two and magic items could be helpful.

Can you really get rid of a mage with it though? Since the range is only 6", don't they just move out of the sphere and keep on casting?

omgadinosaur
22-01-2009, 03:31
Anyone run an Archmage on a great eagle? I t'was fiddling about and thought about:

Archmage, Lv 4, Great Eagle, Sacred Incense, anullian crystal, scroll

Mage, LV 2, Ring of Fury, Silver Wand

BSB, Horse, Lance, Dragon Arm, Battle Banner, Shield, Barding

And then the banner of sorcery in a unit of pheonix guard (seriously. It's near impossible for this unit to die if you have around 20 in it. It's expensive, but cr, fear, and a few kills really stack up especially when almost nothing can kill them quickly)

That would bring 9-11 Power Dice a turn. With 5 Dispell Dice, a scroll, and drain magic for defense. The Archmage could fly around and buff/shoot magic missiles. The other mage could do similarly and shoot his ring and try for the drain magics and the occasional shield of saphry. Furthermore as the BSB can join a unit of dragon princes he can run around and cause havoc or, on the case of demons he can run off to bring his banner of 2-7 combat res to things like phoenix guard and spearmen. This build also alows the ability to add in a cheep combat nobel on foot with relative ease (gw, arm of calendor, t of loec)

So what do people think of the great eagle?

Djekar
22-01-2009, 08:28
I have always liked the great eagle as well as the dark pegasus for the DE. I think that maneuverability is a great assets for mages, and they can keep you out of some trouble by keeping out of charge ranges and hiding in/behind things. That being said, you can't get them dirt cheap like MoT Chaos Sorcerers, but you can't win them all, right?

As to the above setup, that's a bit of points in characters, and I prefer the item that allows you to pick your spell on the level 2 and the silver wand on a level 4, but that's just a personal thing. I think that picking your own spells is huge on a lvl 2 because it means that you can always get spells that you want and more importantly can use. The extra spell is nice on your Archmage because he's got the dice and dice allowance to cast 'em.

That also seems like a pretty nice magic defense set up as well. Not to crazy, but good enough to slow some of the more crazy magic phases and put a stop to some low or moderate ones.

~Parchessi

Neknoh
22-01-2009, 10:23
Indeed, I would say Silver Wand and Vambraces on the level four, only go the Vortex Shard if you pick a level four and want anti-magic, there is no point in a manouverable, mediocre caster used for dispelling things when he could be a manouverable character of "oh frack" for the opponent.

AramilSairSianontel
22-01-2009, 10:48
I love the anti-vampire concept..full anti magic nice...
However returning on the daemons can anyone give me a second opinion of how the Bloodthirster's magic resistance work against the 6th light spell? Does it work? We've been playing wrong i think in my gaming group. Because in second faq that came out Jan, sais specifically that
‘The number in the brackets indicates the
maximum number of extra dice that may be rolled
when trying to dispel each spell that is targeted
against the magically resistant unit.’
so i would had probably killed that thirster that took out my dragon while next to him my mage tried in vain to cast the sixth light spell-one that doesn't target just affects all units in 12 inches from the caster
Am I right?
I'm not complaining what's done is done but i need to know for future games

W0lf
22-01-2009, 10:53
Btw hes something i just thought of that i hadnt previously..

Normally id run a lvl 4 mage, Ring of fury, 3 scrolls with banner of sorc elsewhere and 3 bolt throwers...

is it better to drop the 3 bolt throwers for 2 lvl 2's?

Is Magic missiles/magical impact and boosting to my lvl 4 a better way to roll or are bolt throwers good for sheer reliability?

Condottiere
22-01-2009, 11:05
Strictly speaking, a pair of RBTs are to take out hard targets, that your opponent would be and can protect against spellcasters.

W0lf
22-01-2009, 11:13
I take it you mean single bolt vs large targets?

Because multi-shot is comparable to a D6 S4 missile and lore of metal > Knights.

Neknoh
22-01-2009, 11:27
Lore of Metal does not only > knights, lore of Metal on a Seer absolutely trounces knights, whilst lore of Light is an absolute beast against undead and daemons.

I would say to take them out, bolt throwers are, in my experience in playing against high elves, easier to take out than mages whilst mages can pack immensely more punch.

W0lf
22-01-2009, 12:35
So are you in support of the idea of lvl 4, 2lvl 2's over lvl 4, 3 bolt throwers?

Because i certainly am!!! Oh and for the record i think lights effect vs daemons is over-exagerated. S6 is nice but tbh it dosnt negate any save so its now as amazing as it seems. I still prefer fire imo. Or Shadow. PoS kills plague bearers like they are balanced.

Neknoh
22-01-2009, 12:46
I am indeed in support of the idea of a level four and two level two's over a level four and three bolt throwers. I more often than not preffer to field a level four with a level two, although, with a background in chaos, that probably has more to do with points.

So yes, a level four and two level two's will deffinately beat out the level four coupled with bolt throwers. And I would say that Light is not awesome against daemons because it hammers rank and file, strength five swordmasters and dragonprince charges handles that, no, it has strength six against the greater daemons allong with area of effect spells that can take out both flamers, mobile special choices and flying characters with relative ease or at least be relied upon to harm them enough to have an effect.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
22-01-2009, 13:56
thats pretty heavy magic does it work? A hitty lord on the other side of the table will steam down the elites. The same can be said about an enemy spellcaster if you have a fighty army. Would a list be too heavy if it had a L4, L2, BSB with battle banner, and a fighty noble? thats like 750 pts...

W0lf
22-01-2009, 14:46
A hitty lord will be sniped by lore of metal.

I personally dont like the battle banner... the bearer is far to fragile and a clever opponent wont have much trouble removing him. Plus i find in my own experience (best friend uses it) that it becomes a crutch.

Lazarus15
22-01-2009, 17:27
If he has dragon armor and is with a unit of dragon princes he won't. Spririt of the forge and the spell's derivative are both flaming attacks.

With the rest of it, just use drain magic and your dispell dice, or perhaps carry a scroll or two for just such the occasion.

Using a Prince, on a Star Dragon, with a the S. Lance, Vambrances, and aided by Shield of Saphery (for the dragon mainly), I my self have played against my Tzeentch List as well as against a thirster, and both have gone down. If no wounds are done at all, you still win by one, for outnumber. Against the GUO, you are right in that you should NOT charge that guy unless you want to tarpit him, but he is slow enough, you should be able to avoid him for the most part.

isidril93
22-01-2009, 19:02
i im gonna use a list that is like this
prince, radiant gem of hoeth, armour of protection, talisman of loec
lv 2 mage, elven steed, jewel of the dusk
lv 2 silver wand, ring of fury
lv 2 ring of corin

20 spears with command
10 archers

14 swordmasters, command, banner of sorcery
14 white lions, command, lion standard
7 shadow warriors, walker
white lion chariot

repeater bolt thrower

the whole aim is to blast the enemy with magic, while advancing. as many spells as possible must be cast in order to allow the prince to cast bear's anger once in combat

it has 11-13 PD a turn and 7 DD

what d'ya think

Lazarus15
22-01-2009, 20:22
I would take away the 10 archers and have two blocks of 15 spearmen to protect the flanks of the SM and WL. The army lacks flankers. You have a small unit of shadow warriors, and a lion chariot. Dwarves unfortunetly would probably eat this.

High Elf Magic helps alot to bolster the army, such as Shield of saphery (which I AWLAYS have at least one of for my swordmasters). If you take the book lores, those are good, but unless you take the staff that allows you to know an entire lore, it can be a little iffy. For instance, lore of life has some good spells, especially against dwarves, but also have some worthless spells. Metal, Life, and Light, all do great against dwarves.

As far as bound items go, I would probably go against the ring of corin, and add in either loremasters cloak, or some dispell scrolls. The staff that adds an addition +1 to dispell is very good too, as all dispell attempts are at a +2 to dispell.

Try to think of each job you have set aside for each unit and how well they will achieve this task against the majority of armies. That is usually a good method to building an army. If there are models you like, then by all means, take it, regardless if it is devastating or not. If you are building for theme, then build to the theme and have fun with it.

W0lf
22-01-2009, 20:54
I cant help but feel;

Archmage + Noble is better then Prince +2 lvl 2s.

I think you gain more from 4 spell from lore + 5 dice to cast if wanted (hell its nice to be allowed 4).

Dragon Prince of Caledor
23-01-2009, 11:57
A hitty lord will be sniped by lore of metal.

I personally dont like the battle banner... the bearer is far to fragile and a clever opponent wont have much trouble removing him. Plus i find in my own experience (best friend uses it) that it becomes a crutch.

really a 2+ save that is immune to flaming attacks i.e. immune to lore of metal. I have had that silly banner get me out of some unfavourable conditions many a time! It turns my dragon princes into a steam roller.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
23-01-2009, 12:00
On the topic of archmages what do you people equip yours with? I would think that the ring of fury, the seerstaff, and the guardian phoenix along with another unit with the banner of sorcery would constitute sufficient casting power but not enough resistance.
Another level 2 with scrolls and silver wand?
Does anyone take the folariaths robe i have and had success with it but it takes away casty magic items.

Djekar
23-01-2009, 12:41
I think I would switch the seerstaff and the silver wand - i.e. the Archmage gets the silver wand and the level 2 gets the seerstaff. It does mean that you can take 1 less scroll (unless you make up for it on the level 4 that is), but I think it's a better use of resources. Other than that, I like the kit for your wizards.

~Hamburger

Desert Rain
23-01-2009, 13:15
On the topic of archmages what do you people equip yours with? I would think that the ring of fury, the seerstaff, and the guardian phoenix along with another unit with the banner of sorcery would constitute sufficient casting power but not enough resistance.
Another level 2 with scrolls and silver wand?
Does anyone take the folariaths robe i have and had success with it but it takes away casty magic items.
I take the Silver Wand, and a Dispel Scroll. Maybe with the Ring of Fury. That way he's cheap and knows 5 of 6 spells. I team him up with a Level 2 with the Seerstaff and a Dispel Scroll. I also heve the Banner of Sorcery in a unit of Phoenix Guard.

W0lf
23-01-2009, 13:57
People im not saying a prince in dragon armour will get sniped by metal.. im not stupid.


I responded to this;


A hitty lord on the other side of the table will steam down the elites.

My lvl 4 set-up is ring of fury, 3 scrolls. Assuming hes run solo. Non-solo id probably run the same but drop a scroll for pts.

AramilSairSianontel
23-01-2009, 14:31
If you take the book lores, those are good, but unless you take the staff that allows you to know an entire lore, it can be a little iffy.

And which staff that may be?

Dragon Prince of Caledor
23-01-2009, 14:36
you cant know an entire lore unless you are either a Frog or Teclis.

W0lf
23-01-2009, 14:42
Or a vampire lord, or a chaos sorcerer with third eye used on the above :P

Or kairos, lord of change, heralds of tzeentch, vilitch, galrauch...

im sure theres more but :P

AramilSairSianontel
23-01-2009, 14:53
That's all nice but i thought we were talking high elves here.
People should really read their army books.

W0lf
23-01-2009, 15:27
Have you ever considered that people who dont own the book migt want to contribute their ideas?

I mean id say someone whos never played with HEs or read the book but plays vs them alot could have some helpful insight.

isidril93
23-01-2009, 20:06
I cant help but feel;

Archmage + Noble is better then Prince +2 lvl 2s.

I think you gain more from 4 spell from lore + 5 dice to cast if wanted (hell its nice to be allowed 4).

depends if you ask me...a prince is better in CC and that is the style i want. plus im REALLY big on my high elf prince fluff, my warseer acount is named after him.

i might then change the archers into spear but not for now as i cant get any models. also the ring of corin is for my opponents pendant of khaeleth (or what ever it's called). im still perfecting it

isidril93
25-01-2009, 06:35
I take it you mean single bolt vs large targets?

Because multi-shot is comparable to a D6 S4 missile and lore of metal > Knights.

i think its 6 shots

AramilSairSianontel
25-01-2009, 18:21
Have you ever considered that people who dont own the book migt want to contribute their ideas?

I mean id say someone whos never played with HEs or read the book but plays vs them alot could have some helpful insight.

No i actually never thought about that. I actually didn't think that someone
who doesn't know an army would like to offer strategik tips for them thus resulting in mistaken advices.
On the other hand i never thought that someone woulod think that we should hear those ppl but...oh well.

isidril93
25-01-2009, 18:33
Have you ever considered that people who dont own the book migt want to contribute their ideas?

I mean id say someone whos never played with HEs or read the book but plays vs them alot could have some helpful insight.

i take it you play high elves though, right?

AramilSairSianontel
25-01-2009, 18:55
i take it you play high elves though, right?

That's the million euro question....

W0lf
25-01-2009, 20:25
I do infact play HEs but thats not the point.

AramilSairSianontel
26-01-2009, 13:54
So, what about a nice ETC list to restart the topic? I want to hear all elven tactitians opinions about a 2250 pts list, no more than 2 same rare, no more than 3 same special,
with 10 pd useful each turn no more than 3 units of shooters-no special charakters!
C'mon guys bring it on!

Lazarus15
27-01-2009, 16:41
I was thinking of Master of Sorcery when I wrote that. No biggie.

660 Archmage-Level IV, Vortex Shard, Guardian Phoenix, Moon Dragon

185 Mage-Level II, Silver Wand, Dispell Scroll (x2)
175 Mage-Level II, Loremasters Cloak

153 Spearmen (x17)
162 Spearmen (x18)

355 *Swordmaster (x20)- Full Command, Lion Standard
220 Dragon Princes (x5)- Banner, Banner of Sorcery
140 Lion Chariot

100 Bolt Thrower
100 Bolt Thrower


2250 pts

*-Swordmasters
+Phoenix Guard

May look something like this

---DP's-- -SPEARS- -SwordMasters- -Spears- -Lion Chariot- -A.Mage-

BT *Hill* BT

The idea is that you have a battle line of three blocks, the spears guarding the flanks of the phoenix guard/swordmasters, and potentially three flankers. Kill enemy warmachines fist and foremost and then you can maneuver your dragon around at will. Then when ready, if you want, you can rear charge a unit with the dragon (situation depending), and front charge with a block/chariot/cav.

Use the mage with the loremaster cloaked mage in the swordmasters, to protect them from magic, and the sheild of saphery to protect them from missle fire and combat. The other mage stick in the unit of spearmen, closest to your dragon, so if you choose high magic, you can give shield to your dragon or whatever. If you do book lore, you won't really be hurting here either so either one.

The archmage I would use a book lore for damage. Your own personal preference here.

The coolest thing about it though is the defense. You have six dispell dice, two scrolls, a unit that is pretty much impervious to magic, and once per game, you kill the opponents magic phase.


Anyways, just sort of a all comers list, that doesn't really spam anything, but still gives maneuverability, magic defense/offense, shooting, warmachine hunting and combat ability.

isidril93
27-01-2009, 19:28
i like...i like a lot

Desert Rain
28-01-2009, 16:07
This is basicly the list I'm using at 2000pts, with some additions to make 2250 instead. I think it's a rather balanced list, you've got magic, close combat, shooting, scouts, flyers. Basically everything you need. To bad I couldn't fit in any revears though.

Archmage: Level 4, Silver Wand, 2 x Dispel Scroll (310 pts)

Mage: Level 2, Seerstaff, Dispel Scroll (180 pts)

Noble: Armour of Caledor, Amulet of Light, Great Weapon, Battle Standard (178 pts)

10 Archers (110 pts)

20 Spearmen: Full Command, (205 pts)

20 Phoenix Guards: Full Command, Banner of Sorcery. (380 pts)

11 Swordmasters (165 pts)

5 Dragon Princes (150 pts)

2 x Trianoc Chariots (170 pts)

6 x Shadow Warriors (96 pts)

2 x Repeater Boltthrowers (200 pts)

2 x Great Eagles (100 pts)

Total: 2244 pts.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
28-01-2009, 18:35
Have you considered saving yourself the magic items and simply putting your BSB on a barded steed with DragonArmour and shield. Its the same as the armour of caledor but not only does it give you freedom to take other magic items it increases your movement in case you decide to move him around. Put him in any of your units. That includes the foot soldiers. Its allowed :) It also gives you another attack/potential for more deadly weapons, items or banners.

I am thinking about putting a mounted bsb in a unit of 20 phoenix guard with the battle banner. Hehe, they dont die, their scary! and they will have up to 9 combat res points from banners alone!

isidril93
28-01-2009, 19:07
mr prince of caledor has a point, also uses up a model space so rank wise its counts as an extra PG

Desert Rain
28-01-2009, 20:24
The reason for that is that I don't like the look of cavalry models in infantry units. It wouldn't save that many points either, a barded steed, dragon armour and a shield is 23 pts while the armour of caledor is 25.

isidril93
29-01-2009, 15:58
tactically the steed is the better but if you prefer it on ffot then thats your choice

garythewargamer
30-01-2009, 01:49
no one mentioned the lion chariot.

Lazarus15
30-01-2009, 02:29
I did. I have at least one in EVERY least.

WhiteKnight
30-01-2009, 05:02
Lion chariots are good but against a gunline, you'd be lucky if you got into 20" of the enemy.

Elves All The Way
30-01-2009, 07:11
has any1 tried a prine with bow of seafarer on a great eagle?

Lazarus15
30-01-2009, 07:24
Then run the L.C. up the extreme flank, and behind cover. Usually that is towards the bottom of the opponents to kill list.

isidril93
30-01-2009, 17:45
has any1 tried a prine with bow of seafarer on a great eagle?

nope but i think you're better off taking one on a sun dragon or a griffon

Tarian
30-01-2009, 18:10
I use this for my CC list:

Prince (Mounted)
- Star Lance
- Helm of Fortune
- Talisman of Saphery

BSB (Mounted)
- Banner of Battle

Mage (Level 2)
- Seer Staff
- Dispel Scroll

Mage (Level 2)
- Jewel of the Dusk
- Dispel Scroll

2x Spear Elves x15
- Standard, Champion

2x Dragon Princes x5
- Standard, Champion
- 1 Gets the Warbanner

Swordmasters x15
- Standard, Champion
- Banner of Sorcery

2x Repeater Bolt Throwers

This usually works well for me, as it has solid punch and decent armor.

Deacon Bane
30-01-2009, 18:55
I have used a noble on the Eagle with a Reaver bow, worked good. You have to be careful to position him correctly but he can come in handy. Good at marchblocking, can take out warmachines, wizards hiding in the backfield and small flankers.

Condottiere
30-01-2009, 23:22
He'd be a liability against a Dwarven army equipped with an Anvil.

Elves All The Way
30-01-2009, 23:25
nope but i think you're better off taking one on a sun dragon or a griffon

the thing about them is they're large targets, sure they'd be great in cc but i would use the prince to shoot down ranks

isidril93
31-01-2009, 06:59
true...what about putting him in shadow armour and giving him a lovely big unit of shadow warriors (or while you're at it take alith anar but thats your choice as he is a sp char)

Desert Rain
31-01-2009, 09:53
I have been thinking about the griffons for some time now. I really like them and it would be nice to have one in the future. The thing is that I have some doubts about their effectiveness compared to the dragons, mostly the sun dragon as they cost about the same number of points.

Lets do some compariasion between a Sun Dragon and a Griffon:

Stats:
Sun Dragon has a higher toughness, 6 compared to 5. I also as one more wound, however it has one point less of initiative.

Save and vulnerability:
The griffon loses in both, the Sun Dragon has more wounds, toughness and it also has got an armour save of 4+ compared to the griffons zero.

Other abilities
Both creatures can fly and are large targets. The Sun Dragon has a S2 breath weapon, not a huge advantage but still something. Both monsters also cause terror.

Points and slots
The Sun Dragon is 230 pts while the griffon is 200, however the Sun Dragon uses up an additional hero choice which the Griffon doesn't.

So for a hero choice and 30 pts more you get: More T and W, 4+ save and a S2 breath weapon
So is the griffon woth taking or is the dragon the way to go?

Harwammer
31-01-2009, 11:07
Reasons to take a griffon:
-You want a big scary, but you also want max chars
-You want a prince on a big scary, a dragon mage, but also want a BSB or +1dispel/drain magic.
-You have the model

These aren't neccesarily good reasons, but they are reasons none the less. They are basically composition reasons rather thany any gamey reason.

Champion89
31-01-2009, 17:36
I just started High Elves and so far I haven't won a single game. Thanks I think this will help a lot.

isidril93
31-01-2009, 18:04
no problem :)

what army do you have and who do you fight?

WhiteKnight
01-02-2009, 16:40
Sun Dragons have a 5+ save. But still, its better. I'm planning on trying a prince on sun dragon to save points and wreak havoc on this guy's skaven army. I'll have a great eagle take care of the warp lightning cannon and then have my dragon take care of the general's unit, then my swordmasters, spearmen, and white lions handle the rest.

grhino
01-02-2009, 16:46
Monstrous creatures are in my opinion not the best way to start playing an army. They are a useful and attractive addition, but for a main army they can also be a reliability. To win with HE's - choose one main strenght and capatalize on this: don't spread out your abilities too much. An elite force needs to use it's elite nature by excelling at what they are designed to do best! And a HE does provide a lot of options in this view: it can excel at all aspects of the game: movement, shooting, magic or combat. Don't try to excel at all fields at once!

isidril93
01-02-2009, 18:44
or else pair those fields
movement & combat
magic & shooting
magic & combat

dont bother with other combos

Dragon Prince of Caledor
01-02-2009, 19:00
well said grihno and isidril. I find my combat and magic combination the most devastating. But i like to change things up frequently.

WhiteKnight
01-02-2009, 23:23
I came up with a combat / movement list thats for a tourney but its pretty deathstarish and with a white lion tarpit of death.

Check it out (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181227)

isidril93
02-02-2009, 09:33
you meany!!! and tactical master!!!
nice list

WhiteKnight
02-02-2009, 14:35
Thanks isidril. You're the one person that I've gotten a good comment about this list. They're probably just saying its easy to beat because they know they'll struggle against it.

osickx
02-02-2009, 17:21
Has anyone had a chance to play the new lizzardmen yet, or has any thoughts on how to deal with the new book? Especially anti Slan, and what about the new cheaper Saurus with spears.

Going to be playing against it soon, so any thoughts are greatly appreciated

AramilSairSianontel
02-02-2009, 21:52
On the subject of Sun dragon or Griffon-what do you think about taking both?
You still have one more hero slot for a second wizard if you combine it with the banner of sorcery you get 6 pd +dice from banner +1 extra dice that the mage uses for each of his spells-it can be a dispelly list, and a sorcery and fighty too-what do you guys think?
We play ETC here, which means restricted to 10 pd, so the 2 monsters fighty ability with a lot of pd without being a magic heavy list...

The Beast Walks Among Us
02-02-2009, 23:30
Regarding the Griffon, another option is to take Eltharion on Stormwing. I know some people don't like to play with special characters, but he's hardly overpowered, unless you play alot of games against Grom the Paunch. His griffon gets some nice benefits, such as WS6, 5W, and most importantly a 5+ ward save. So you end up with a reasonably survivable beast, and you still have the option for 4 character slots.

Just some food for thought.

Elves All The Way
03-02-2009, 06:59
another reason is that Eltharion is a lv 2 wizard as well as a mage which will get two birds with one stone and dont forget his longbow :P, reguarding the lizzies and the slann, some of their units you should just fight fire with fire, fight sarus warriors with spearmen, temple guard with swordmasters, Slann with teclis,

isidril93
03-02-2009, 18:25
fact it we got better stuff than they do...less survivable but our elites are deadlier, core are ceaper (saurus wise) and dragons are better than tegadons imo

Dragon Prince of Caledor
03-02-2009, 18:36
slann is a beast though :) and lizzies dont die unless you hit em with white lions really. Scaly pricks lol

Angelust
03-02-2009, 18:42
I had my star dragon single handedly tie up Kroak and two engine of the gods on the flanks. Ancient steggies fall fast when a star dragon is dishing out 7 S7 attacks, and they hit on 5s wound on 4s...

isidril93
03-02-2009, 18:44
i thought about using a prince with radiant gem of hoeth on a star dragon.
give him bear's anger and its like you have 2 dragons (one with 1 lower s)

Nuada
03-02-2009, 18:46
bears anger won't work on a model riding a monster

isidril93
03-02-2009, 18:52
bears anger won't work on a model riding a monster

...damn...

Elves All The Way
04-02-2009, 08:21
has anyone used the healing potion to any sucess? i dont like it very much, i'd rather spend the points on some better protection like the vambraces of defence or somethin, it seems like a good plan b though

WhiteKnight
04-02-2009, 14:30
Healing potion is a situational item. I'd much rather take vambraces of defence because you'll be using it every game.

Desert Rain
04-02-2009, 18:53
I prefer to have 2 RBT in 2000 pts. If you want an additional mage you could drop one boltthrower and something else or 2 boltthrowers. I like the RBT because their reliabillity compared to magic. I use quite a lot of magic with my HE but I belive that you can't rely enitrely on magic to take out possible threats. That's why I have 10 Archers and 2 RBT too.

isidril93
04-02-2009, 18:58
Healing potion is a situational item. I'd much rather take vambraces of defence because you'll be using it every game.

exactly...if the prince or whoever is gonna die he would most probably die in one turn..no time to ue it

Angelust
04-02-2009, 23:18
I don't suppose anyone would take it on a prince, but maybe a noble on an eagle or something. Emergency corpman who can fly to you and heal you up! :-)

WhiteKnight
05-02-2009, 00:58
Yeah but the birdy will be a bright red bullseye for your opponent.

Lafkak
05-02-2009, 02:49
I think it's a pretty worthless item :) Now, maybe if High Elf Princes were like Tomb Kings and had 4W...

Angelust
05-02-2009, 04:18
too bad you can't potion a star dragon...

Elves All The Way
06-02-2009, 05:51
No but u can heal it for one wound if you use healing energy with the lore of life :P

Angelust
06-02-2009, 08:14
you mean lore of light? Gift of life on Lore of Life heals ALL its wounds. That could ruin someone's day...

Solonor
06-02-2009, 10:52
I think it's a pretty worthless item :) Now, maybe if High Elf Princes were like Tomb Kings and had 4W...

Well then, the Golden Crown is the same has an extra wound (actually its better because its an extra wound that ignores killing blow), much better option compared to the healing potion.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
06-02-2009, 12:23
you mean lore of light? Gift of life on Lore of Life heals ALL its wounds. That could ruin someone's day...

I have misplaced my rulebook recently and havent browsed through the lores in sometime but are you serious that would be awesome!!! The beast dragon is finally almost dead and poof!!! Back and ready for action :evilgrin:

Condottiere
06-02-2009, 16:55
The gift of life is also within 12" range, so your caster has to be close to the action.

Angelust
06-02-2009, 17:11
Or keep your dragon close to your lines/shooting.

TheSanityAssassin
06-02-2009, 17:33
Has anyone considered using Phoenix Guard as the centrepoint of a list? Most people seem to ignore them, but I've won 2 Best Generals in a row with a PG centred list:

Archmage, LV 4, Vortex Shard
Mage, LV 2, Ring of Fury
BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, GW, Radient Gem
Caradryan


20x Spears, FC
20x Spears, FC

15x PG, FC, War Banner
14x Swordsmasters, FC, Talisman of Loec
5x Dragon Princes, Standard Bearers, Banner of Ellyrian

With Caradryan and the BSB, AND the War Banner in that PG unit, it delivers a sickening amount of CR, plus good fightyness from the 2 characters, and Caradryan can often keep other characters out of fights by challenging, which most folks run from. In one game I had only the PG command Group + Chars hit combat, and still stomp 3 full Dwarf blocks. Keep the flanks guarded, and it's REALLY tough for you opponent to get rid of them.

Massacre VC's routinely with this list, and can even out stand&CR some Nurgle lists.

At times I drop the LV2 for more DP's, but we tend not to be very magic heavy around here most times.

Condottiere
07-02-2009, 09:47
PGs are the prime anvil unit of the HE list, followed by WL, and a distant third Spears.

Angelust
07-02-2009, 15:49
How large do you think a PG unit should be? I have run them 2x7 wide, full command and gem of courage. I'm considering 4x5 or 3x7. I really don't know what is better to be an anvil unit, mathematically.

sroblin
07-02-2009, 17:21
Personally, I think Phonenix Guard should always be fielded on a narrow front (5 wide) with maximum ranks, because with one attack they aren't likely to kill much, and they instead want to maximize their CR as much as possible to win the battle. 4x5 I think is the best frontage for an anvil; hypothetically the extra 2 models in 7x3 could net you an extra kill versus weak troops like empire infantry (2 phoenix guard kill .58 empire swordsmen for example so its only a little better than 50-50), but for an 'anvil' unit you should expect to be fighting more powerful enemy units that you are much less likely to score additional kills against. Moreover, you want to minimize the number of models that can attack your own troops! So IMO, the extra ranks are always the best choice. 3x5 at a minimum, but I think 20 is the best place to start despite the cost, because Phoenix Guard need to hold their own on rank bonus and outnumbering, and as an anvil unit need to be able to take some casualties without losing those things entirely.

Angelust
07-02-2009, 17:24
hm, good points. I guess 3x5 at least then...

gogs78
07-02-2009, 18:01
Phoenix guard are the only infantry high elves i dont field 7 wide for the reasons stated above.
All other units have a far better chance of dishing out more damage than the phoenix guard so i like to use then as an anvil and always go 5x4.
Usually put in a warbanner and gem of courage and they have won some ridiculous combats for me when i really should have lost badly.
Never used them last edition, didnt even own the models, but 4+ ward can be game changing.

Desert Rain
07-02-2009, 20:10
I think PG should be around 20 models for optimal peformance. You could push towards 25 if you want to autobreak you foes.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
07-02-2009, 22:30
Has anyone considered using Phoenix Guard as the centrepoint of a list? Most people seem to ignore them, but I've won 2 Best Generals in a row with a PG centred list:

Archmage, LV 4, Vortex Shard
Mage, LV 2, Ring of Fury
BSB, Dragon Armour, Shield, GW, Radient Gem
Caradryan


20x Spears, FC
20x Spears, FC

15x PG, FC, War Banner
14x Swordsmasters, FC, Talisman of Loec
5x Dragon Princes, Standard Bearers, Banner of Ellyrian

With Caradryan and the BSB, AND the War Banner in that PG unit, it delivers a sickening amount of CR, plus good fightyness from the 2 characters, and Caradryan can often keep other characters out of fights by challenging, which most folks run from. In one game I had only the PG command Group + Chars hit combat, and still stomp 3 full Dwarf blocks. Keep the flanks guarded, and it's REALLY tough for you opponent to get rid of them.

Massacre VC's routinely with this list, and can even out stand&CR some Nurgle lists.

At times I drop the LV2 for more DP's, but we tend not to be very magic heavy around here most times.

I love the list. The only difference for me is pretty much the omittance of Caradryan and the addition if white lions when i can.
I have had nothing but good experiences with my phoenix guard. I am also surprised that they appear in so few lists on here.:angel:

Dragon Prince of Caledor
07-02-2009, 22:32
I think PG should be around 20 models for optimal peformance. You could push towards 25 if you want to autobreak you foes.

I take 15 and they make a dandy anvil but I am thinking of upping them to twenty. That makes them rediculously expensive though:eek: I let them absorb thingslike impact hits and then i win the fight with another unit and use the fear to send my enemies peacing :p

WhiteKnight
08-02-2009, 01:37
I've used 15 as an amazing mage bunker. They aren't really combat prowess unless accompanied by caradryan or a fighty noble or prince.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
08-02-2009, 14:24
Ive never given them any heroes besides a mage and Korhil occasionally ;) Stubborn phoenix guard makes me happy:)

isidril93
08-02-2009, 14:41
what about a BSB. i was thinking that one with a battle banner in 14 PG would be strong

WhiteKnight
08-02-2009, 17:05
Has anyone ever seen this before?

2 units of 15 ellyrion reavers with a mage in each.

This one HE player used to use it and had success because they could run everywhere.

TheSanityAssassin
08-02-2009, 18:26
Battle banner is a bit overkill for PG to me. plus Im not thrilled at Battle Banner on foot. Just too vulnerable. A basic BSB and War Banner in the unit is cheaper, safer, and still adds fightyness. Im still sold on 2 characters in the unit, then it can be hammer and anvil. As for the Reavers, Ive not seen it. I have tried them as a flanker with an attatched noble on unbarded steed to some effect.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
08-02-2009, 21:30
Battle banner is a bit overkill for PG to me. plus Im not thrilled at Battle Banner on foot. Just too vulnerable. A basic BSB and War Banner in the unit is cheaper, safer, and still adds fightyness. Im still sold on 2 characters in the unit, then it can be hammer and anvil. As for the Reavers, Ive not seen it. I have tried them as a flanker with an attatched noble on unbarded steed to some effect.

Put the BSB on a barded horse ;) then take a unit of 20 PG. I want to try that! My buddies brets would have a field day with these silent bad boys :evilgrin: ...but we are High Elves:angel:
has anyone ever tried what I mentioned with the phoenix guard and the bsb with battle banner? If so please let me know :D

ScytheSwathe
08-02-2009, 23:49
Yeah, i often run a squad of 20 PG, noble with battlebanner, dragon armour and great weapon. With a war banner in there too, and sometimes a mage. Im not a very experienced fantasy player, at any rate not compared to my housmates, so i often find myself outmanouvered. I tend to find that it doesnt reach combat much of the time, people know that theres very little chance of beating it with anything so it ends up just being a large block of VP denial, which is no bad thing.
Frankly, if i were a better player i reckon i could get alot more use out of it, which is why im sticking at it. That and the models some of the best we have at the moment.

WhiteKnight
09-02-2009, 00:28
If you get outmaneuvered, try using eagles and fast cav to lure your opponents to you. I usually have a group of reavers in front of the phoenix guard, then I make them break off of each other, but still about 3" away. Then when someone declares a charge on the reavers, I flee and 95% of the time pass because of ld 10 from the prince. Then my big block of infantry lay waste to whoever was dumb enough to fall for it.

TheSanityAssassin
09-02-2009, 19:54
Very little should be able to massively outmaneuver you unless the folks you play are super cav heavy or else all skirmishing Woodies. If you're finding your blocks aren't hitting combat, you should either start playing more defensively, and force the enemy to come THROUGH the big block to get to shooting or magic, or else play violently agressive (my personal choice) and ram the PG right in the face of the enemies nastiest units, which it's built to take down. It's also a unit that's relatively able to take the fight to artillery positions and survive the incoming fire.

Pair it with a couple units of Spears or Cav guarding the flanks to make sure that your agression doesn't get you surrounded, which even the PG sometimes can't handle (I recall getting run off by 120 combined points of Marauders...though my dice were largely at fault...0 wounds caused and an 11 on my break check...)

isidril93
09-02-2009, 19:54
nice trick...should try it one time

ScytheSwathe
09-02-2009, 20:04
One of them is a WOC cavalry army, one is a wood elf annoying shooty type army. theres also now some VC and tomb kings coming in, and another high elf player who loves his shadow warriors.

So yeah, i find myself getting outmanouvered a fair bit. I know its partly the armies i play, but theres no doubt that you have to force a squad like that on your opponent. They will always avoid them as much as possible.

LordBadgash
10-02-2009, 02:25
I was having a problem with a friend's Dark Elf assassin with 6 attacks killing everything, so here's what I did to counter him, with great effect, I scored a solid victory with this dirty little trick.

Archmage
-Folaraith's Robe
-Talisman of Saphery
-Staff of Solidity
-lvl 4

Makes the archmage untouchable/unkillable.

Put him in a unit of 6x3 swordmasters. My opponent wants to kill the archmage, even if it means charging the nasty swordmasters.

He charges them, and attatcks first in close combat (Assassins have 'always strike first' and Initiative 10!!!). I challenge with my archmage and he laughs. My items make me immune to his attacks. My swordmasters destroy his spearmen. He gets NO attacks. He braks and flees, I chase him down and the pursuit roll takes me into combat with his general. Archmage is unkillable in a challenge, he breaks and flees!

A great trick against anybody's big nasty character. And while he's not in combat negating enemy attacks, he's blowing them away with magic support from 2 or 3 more mages!

NICE! In this case, the best offense is a good defense!!!

WhiteKnight
10-02-2009, 03:21
Wow I have to remember that in challenges! That's utterly brilliant!

feintstar
10-02-2009, 13:45
Hey guys I'm not sure if this has been covered previously but there are 2 things I'm keen to try for looks and interest's sake:

1. Spears - lots of them. I was thinking 4 lots of 25 with full command, comes to a neat 1000 points or so I think. Add that to 2 units of White Lions and a couple of lion chariots for 2500 points. There will be no LOS, and therefore no point in RBTs, so it'll need lots of mages for fast movers. Potentially, a rain lord or better a howler wind could really make this work nicely.

2. I can't take credit for this but a friend who lurks around here (You know who you are J t R) told me a fun combo: - the Nightwalker Prince! White Sword, Talisman of Loec and armour of stars, preferably thrown forward by a steed of shadows. :) Think about it...

Although I seriously am in 2 minds, as I'd love to use the challenging Archmage, it would just be awesome.

isidril93
10-02-2009, 19:21
i like the night walker prince
i looked at it and deiced to 'shift around some stuff'
NOTE...dont try this unless you are playing a REALLY uncompetetive game and feel like fooling around, this is no way a good tactic

2 mages: 1 with beast the other with shadow
1 prince: talisman of loec, armour of stars (no white sword)

cast bear's anger and then fly him...7 s6 reroll everything attacks

thrawn
10-02-2009, 20:49
do people find small units of sword masters good? i've been playing with the idea, and tried a couple of times but find them unreliable. to easy to panic, take down to unit strength like 3 or 4, then they're not as effect to even flank. what has worked for you? a bigger unit of sword masters, or two smaller ones?

Lafkak
10-02-2009, 21:23
I'm always intrigued by using multiple units of Swordmasters, but I've never tried it. I always just shiver at the prospect of 1 round of shooting from 1 handgunner unit taking out the lot of them or rendering them ineffective.

I usually take a unit of 18 (6x3)...just so that they have enough models to still kill and have some staying power despite in-combat casualties (if they get any return attacks!). Usually they're a shooting magnet so I think a lot of the time you need a good amount so that by the time they reach people's lines they aren't all dead :( On the other hand, if you have a lot of small elite units or a big, juicier target (Dragon Mage?) they might be very survivable in small units just because they would not be targeted.

If the enemy had no shooting, I would almost certainly opt for smaller units. Much more effective for flanking, using M5 to outmaneuver, and as hammers for spearmen anvils (I have a list fairly heavy in infantry).

Just my two cents...

P.S. That's a pretty interesting idea there with the assassin-lord and crazy teleportation :) I'll have to try that someday

Desert Rain
11-02-2009, 11:31
do people find small units of sword masters good? i've been playing with the idea, and tried a couple of times but find them unreliable. to easy to panic, take down to unit strength like 3 or 4, then they're not as effect to even flank. what has worked for you? a bigger unit of sword masters, or two smaller ones?
I use a unit of 12 in a 6x2 formation. They are relativly cheap (180 pts) and can survive some turns of shooting, especially if you protect them with Shield of Saphery. That way you might get 6-7 of them into combat to wreck havoc.

feintstar
11-02-2009, 13:08
Oh woe is me, Prince Nightwalker and his friend the challenging Archmage met Khalida, and both died having done precisely nothing.

Boo.

isidril93
11-02-2009, 19:13
ahhh....thats bad

WhiteKnight
12-02-2009, 03:42
I once owned an army with the nightwalker by just hitting and running a skaven army. I ran my princes with a GW, armor of stars and vambraces. I just laughed as I owned skaven characters in CC and if he didn't accept, owned his clanrats. I want to try nightwalker with healing potion and armor of stars. Get down to 1 wound and then fill back up!

Angelust
12-02-2009, 05:18
What's a nightwalker?

The Old Scholar
12-02-2009, 05:33
What's a nightwalker?

It's a name that feintstar gave to friends idea for a Prince combo:

"2. I can't take credit for this but a friend who lurks around here (You know who you are J t R) told me a fun combo: - the Nightwalker Prince! White Sword, Talisman of Loec and armour of stars, preferably thrown forward by a steed of shadows. Think about it..."

from his post about seven posts up...

Desert Rain
12-02-2009, 14:13
I'm planning to ad some Revears to my army, but I'm not sure on how I shall equip them Which one do you think is the best option?

WhiteKnight
12-02-2009, 14:37
I usually keep Reavers as cheap as possible to have more of them. In my "Semi all-cavalry" list, I 0play for 3k points, I have 4 units of 5 reavers with no upgrades that just annoy the other player.

isidril93
12-02-2009, 18:14
I'm planning to ad some Revears to my army, but I'm not sure on how I shall equip them Which one do you think is the best option?

i think bows are the best but if you have points put spears and bows

Dragon Prince of Caledor
12-02-2009, 21:02
do people find small units of sword masters good? i've been playing with the idea, and tried a couple of times but find them unreliable. to easy to panic, take down to unit strength like 3 or 4, then they're not as effect to even flank. what has worked for you? a bigger unit of sword masters, or two smaller ones?

14 is dandy. Enough numbers, granted you keep them "sufficiently protected" and enough hitty power when ranked up in 7 to laugh off all but the most gnarly of beasts.

As for the challenging mage thats awesome!!!
Has anyone tried this combination?
Prince
Folariaths robe
Talisman of saphery
The Amulet of Light
Great weapon

That could be really dirty. He is tooled up for challenges whilst his unit mows down everything else. :D:p

Solonor
13-02-2009, 08:44
14 is dandy. Enough numbers, granted you keep them "sufficiently protected" and enough hitty power when ranked up in 7 to laugh off all but the most gnarly of beasts.

As for the challenging mage thats awesome!!!
Has anyone tried this combination?
Prince
Folariaths robe
Talisman of saphery
The Amulet of Light
Great weapon

That could be really dirty. He is tooled up for challenges whilst his unit mows down everything else. :D:p

why are you giving the prince amulet of light and great weapon? the folariaths robe makes it impossible for the prince to attack with magic/mundane weapons. so if u give the robe to a prince your wasting 4 W7 ASF Attacks.
If attacks where possible the prince would be unkillable (except for daemons etc. of course) and still able to damage the opponent. that would be very powerfull and cheesey.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
13-02-2009, 14:53
why are you giving the prince amulet of light and great weapon? the folariaths robe makes it impossible for the prince to attack with magic/mundane weapons. so if u give the robe to a prince your wasting 4 W7 ASF Attacks.
If attacks where possible the prince would be unkillable (except for daemons etc. of course) and still able to damage the opponent. that would be very powerfull and cheesey.

Hehe...oh yeah forgot about that part...:cries::p

isidril93
15-02-2009, 09:51
why are you giving the prince amulet of light and great weapon? the folariaths robe makes it impossible for the prince to attack with magic/mundane weapons. so if u give the robe to a prince your wasting 4 W7 ASF Attacks.
If attacks where possible the prince would be unkillable (except for daemons etc. of course) and still able to damage the opponent. that would be very powerfull and cheesey.

not that unkillable
actualy very killable as most characters have magic items and most enemy units would attack your body guard not the actual prince...in order to get cr

Emeraldw
16-02-2009, 02:20
What's everyone's opinions on

1. Shadow Warriors

2. Alith'Anar

I am thinking of putting them together and creating a harrassing / rear charge force with them but I'm not sure. One reason I like Alith is that he has a walking Bolt thrower.

However Shadow warriors seem very lackluster. Compared to shades (closest comparison) or Waywatchers, they just seem like scouting archers. I haven't seen the new chamelon skinks but I bet they are still better and more cost effective than shadow warriors. However I am trying to not be power gamey (you know, no star dragon).

Angelust
16-02-2009, 18:13
I think shadow warriors are great. March-blockers, war machine harassers, charge redirectors...

I think they're useful against most armies. Definitely worth the pts for 5 guys...

omgadinosaur
16-02-2009, 18:47
I'm always intrigued by using multiple units of Swordmasters, but I've never tried it. I always just shiver at the prospect of 1 round of shooting from 1 handgunner unit taking out the lot of them or rendering them ineffective.

I usually take a unit of 18 (6x3)...just so that they have enough models to still kill and have some staying power despite in-combat casualties (if they get any return attacks!). Usually they're a shooting magnet so I think a lot of the time you need a good amount so that by the time they reach people's lines they aren't all dead :( On the other hand, if you have a lot of small elite units or a big, juicier target (Dragon Mage?) they might be very survivable in small units just because they would not be targeted.

If the enemy had no shooting, I would almost certainly opt for smaller units. Much more effective for flanking, using M5 to outmaneuver, and as hammers for spearmen anvils (I have a list fairly heavy in infantry).

Just my two cents...

P.S. That's a pretty interesting idea there with the assassin-lord and crazy teleportation :) I'll have to try that someday


I usually rock the 7man teams of swordmasters. I usually have a big unit of spearmen or a large amount of White Lions with a dragon or dragon princes. If the opponent decides to shoot down my 105 point unit of swordmasters instead of trying to kill any of the more dangerous units it's great for me.

I had a game against old lizardmen about a month ago. My spearmen took a charge from a carnasaur AND a stegadon on the same turn. The stegadon had a skink priest on it and i directed a ton of ASF attacks against it. I lost combat but not enough to run. The next turn my spearelves didn't break again. The next turn my swordmasters got a flank charge in on the carnasaur and attacked the oldblood only to discover he had that ward against S5 or better. Luckily he fluffed some roles and my next magic phase I got vauls unmaking off and destroyed it before slaying his Oldblood with Swordmasters and Spearelves. Despite killing the Oldblood, my spearelves still lost combat and finally ran away to be mowed down by the stegadon. The Swordmasters where also whiped.

I was proud of my spearelves for living for so long.

BrPrometheus
16-02-2009, 19:37
Coming back to high elves......

So after a 10 year hiatus I am coming back to high elves and I had some questions for people that have been playing alot. My first comment though is that I play in a very competitive area where many of the people I play are GT players and such so becuase of this the list will need to be very competitive for me not to get walked off of the board. So in that regard I find that I will have to deal with three main builds I am hearing a lot about:

1. Bloodthirster - How do you stop this thing. I was thinking about using a cheap prince in a unit and trying to induce or force the blood thrister to charge the unit. The character is armed with a great weapon, armor of the stars and talisman of loec. My hope is that when the thirster charges I challenge. I strike first, pop the talisman of loec and hope to get 1-2 wounds on the thirster. He gets his 1 wound on my charcter and I pop away. If I can avoid getting charged in the rear I will get my 3 ranks plus outnumber plus standard cuasing another 5 wounds to the thirster. Will this work? I am not sure if I can protect the sides enought o not give a flank charge but I have some thoughts....

2. Vampire 13 power dice armies. - So with 4 wizards in this list and the special casting abilities I think the only defense is to drain magic like a fiend. That said Other than scrolls he has he is also carrying 7-8 dispel dice. I am not sure how to get drain magic off. Eeven with 1 wizard with the lore of undead killing I think it is going to be hard to get through that when you need to. Any ideas?

3. Flying Circus deamons. - No thoughts anu suggestions.

So here is what I was thinking about

Lots of Lion Chariots?

So I was thinking about running 3-4 lion chariots. I love the models. And in running them in pairs I think they may actually be able to hold their own in a stand up fight. I was planning on protctiong them by running a unit of archers in front of them and then fleeing the archers when they are charged..

3 Bolt throwers. I was really surprised about some of the comments on the forums about bolt throwers. With the 3 of them and the big bolts I think you can almost down a big monster a turn. Especially if it is close or you were able to get curse of arrow attraction up. I feel it is much more reliable than magic and n the end cheaper. In addition the versatility of taking out units with 24 massed shots. Even heavy infantry and smaller cav units need to be careful of this. At short range you hit 16 times, at t 4 youget 8 wounds and a 2+ ends up at a 4+ so you kill 4 heavy cav. That should be enough to pull up any unit that doesn't have more than 8 models to begin with. Am I missing something?

Screened Units. I was thinking about taking a screening unit of archers and setting a unit of swaordmaster behind them. The archers take the shooting attacks and if any are left do a stand and shoot against the charging opponent. They then get first strikes to whittle down the enemy some more before they are vaped completly. I am only hoping for 2-4 wounds out of this whole process on a solid infantry unit but I am also benefiting from the shooting defense as well. If the enemy overruns the archers they then smack into the swordmasters and with speed of asur I still get to strike first. Any thoughts?

The fire defense? I had never really considered it before but is the dragon armors immunity to fire weapons carry over to flaming magical attacks? Does that eliminate most of the tzeentch magic against them? ore of fire also goes out the window but does other magic get neutered? What about a magic weapon that says the attacks are considered flame attacks? It would still do damge right?

isidril93
16-02-2009, 20:07
What's everyone's opinions on

1. Shadow Warriors

2. Alith'Anar

I am thinking of putting them together and creating a harrassing / rear charge force with them but I'm not sure. One reason I like Alith is that he has a walking Bolt thrower.

However Shadow warriors seem very lackluster. Compared to shades (closest comparison) or Waywatchers, they just seem like scouting archers. I haven't seen the new chamelon skinks but I bet they are still better and more cost effective than shadow warriors. However I am trying to not be power gamey (you know, no star dragon).

i love shadow warriors, first models i painted in fact

alith anar can turn a units of shadow warriors into something really deadly and is much more worth it than a prince with shadow armour and bow of the seafarer

Elves All The Way
17-02-2009, 00:29
i have to agrre with isidril and emeraldw, i recon that shadow warriors are over rated, they are just scouting and skirmish archers and are not worth their points, the only reason i add them in my army is because they're the only skirmish unit HE have. now if they had 2attk (since they're the most bloody thirsty HE and i know they already have hatred but still..) or maybe BS5 they would be worth it, but other then that they're pretty ordinary. However, they look awsome, and are dealdy if you add alith anar, if you dont they're just very ordinary

Dragon Prince of Caledor
17-02-2009, 01:23
shadow warriors were supposed to have 2 hand weapons :( They are good but lists with a lot of them are dumb IMO. One magic missile and they are gone. I think that people are trying to use them for things they arent meant to do, resulting in large armies of them! I have never used Alith Anar but would like to I am sure he would be fun to play with.

As for the lion chariots 3-4 are you crazy??!?!?!?! jk but seriously thats overkill. They are beastly and lovely models, some of the finest I love mine! But teaming it up with one tiranoc chariot produces lovely results. Taking 4 of them is like 560pts of cannon targets. That and its all the eggs in one chariot ;) I would recommend the tag team and some other units for the massive 280 pts you will save on two lion chariots.


Have many people tried the invincible Archmage? With Folariath's robes and the Talisman of Saphery? I am going to try it in my new list. How successful is it? Is it worth the points in people's opinion?

AramilSairSianontel
17-02-2009, 06:42
The fire defense? I had never really considered it before but is the dragon armors immunity to fire weapons carry over to flaming magical attacks? Does that eliminate most of the tzeentch magic against them? ore of fire also goes out the window but does other magic get neutered? What about a magic weapon that says the attacks are considered flame attacks? It would still do damge right?

YES.
And yes against Tzeentch.
And yes everything flaming is neutralised including flamers attacks shooting and cc. And flames of tzeentch-check last errata for details.
Yes to the weapon too-and no it wouldn't do damage-like the tomb king's catapult.It can't touch you.:evilgrin:

isidril93
17-02-2009, 11:36
i think the best way to use shadow warriors is to be slightly reckless. with hatred and asf the can easlity become a good flanker. shoot until the enemy comes in, charge with a big unit in the front and sdw warriors in the rear

AramilSairSianontel
17-02-2009, 12:31
i think the best way to use shadow warriors is to be slightly reckless. with hatred and asf the can easlity become a good flanker. shoot until the enemy comes in, charge with a big unit in the front and sdw warriors in the rear

And no armor at all? The enemy will probably take precious cr for killing those shadow warriors...and if even one dies you no longer have rear...by the way do you even have rear at the beginning? they're skirmisers....

selone
17-02-2009, 13:00
he means charge the enemy in the rear, and no skirmishers dont negate ranks they do however get the =CR for it :)

isidril93
17-02-2009, 15:57
skirmishers dont negate ranks? isnt it that they dot get cr for ranks.
also it depends on what unit you charge, something like empire or goblin are very different from chaos warriors, tactics work differently against different armies

i like to field min 7 warriors so they won t die easily

Solonor
17-02-2009, 16:30
not that unkillable
actualy very killable as most characters have magic items and most enemy units would attack your body guard not the actual prince...in order to get cr

i was quoting the Folariaths Robe and Talisman of shaphery combination mentioned by DP of Caledor, so magic weapons are no problem only magical attacks. i was saying the model would be almost unkillable, of course there are ways like you said to "kill" the prince.

Although if you are unkillable and could still dish out WS7 S6 4At (like DP of Caledor wished for), the enemy character would have to refuse your challenge or be in a bad spot, leaving your prince time and pleasure to attack the foes bodyguard to get CR. :)

The Nightwalker prince although situational can produce the most satisfactory results, if you know you will face lone power characters mounted on big monsters, put the nightwalker in a spearelf unit (20+), with the warbanner, and if you like put a bsb too. This produces a innocent block of core infantry with T3 crappy save with the general inside, a tempting target to the beast. With care, so your foe doesnt suspect, put the unit in range of the behemmoth. if your foe falls and charges the unit, challenge with the prince, if your lucky you will do 1/2 wounds but if u do 0 thats ok, since when the beast strikes and does the 1st wound the prince will vanish and the beast gets stuck against a minimum of CR 6(7 if bsb in unit). for maximum effect put a innocent unit of shadow warriors or ellyrian reavers behind the hulking monster so when it runs (if your lucky or make the right calculations) from the mighty spearelves he gets trashed by the unforgiving ER or SW.

Of course many things can make this plan go wrong, i know ;)

Dragon Prince of Caledor
17-02-2009, 17:16
Thats really dirty it would be fun to see the opponents face when 10+attacks equals one point for combat res against three ranks, banner, warbanner, and the lovely battle banner ;)

Emeraldw
17-02-2009, 17:42
skirmishers dont negate ranks? isnt it that they dot get cr for ranks.
also it depends on what unit you charge, something like empire or goblin are very different from chaos warriors, tactics work differently against different armies

i like to field min 7 warriors so they won t die easily

No, they do not. Nor do fast cav I think.

I am seriously considering doing the Alith'Anar with 10 shadow warriors as opposed to my original archmage setup and use them as described above, rear charger's with Alith and 4-5 other elves with hatred should do a decent number on the enemy. Much less the turns of having a moble bolt thrower. I think the archmage might be more effective in the greater number of situations, but having those extra bows (and the moon bow) might be alright as well.

I'm still surprised at how SW's are so inferior to shades. I'm not sure if shades are too good or SW's aren't up to par. If SW's had XHW options I'd be happy with them, they don't seem to be the best bowmen anyway, you can see this partly with the way that the champion has an extra attack. (I'd leave waywatchers with that honor, <3 short range killing blow).

Btw, thank you for helping me. I'm trying to finalize a 2k list and I am already painting mine to look "evil" with black and red, an Alith'Anar themed army might work out beautifully.

Emeraldw
17-02-2009, 17:46
i was quoting the Folariaths Robe and Talisman of shaphery combination mentioned by DP of Caledor, so magic weapons are no problem only magical attacks. i was saying the model would be almost unkillable, of course there are ways like you said to "kill" the prince.

Although if you are unkillable and could still dish out WS7 S6 4At (like DP of Caledor wished for), the enemy character would have to refuse your challenge or be in a bad spot, leaving your prince time and pleasure to attack the foes bodyguard to get CR. :)

The Nightwalker prince although situational can produce the most satisfactory results, if you know you will face lone power characters mounted on big monsters, put the nightwalker in a spearelf unit (20+), with the warbanner, and if you like put a bsb too. This produces a innocent block of core infantry with T3 crappy save with the general inside, a tempting target to the beast. With care, so your foe doesnt suspect, put the unit in range of the behemmoth. if your foe falls and charges the unit, challenge with the prince, if your lucky you will do 1/2 wounds but if u do 0 thats ok, since when the beast strikes and does the 1st wound the prince will vanish and the beast gets stuck against a minimum of CR 6(7 if bsb in unit). for maximum effect put a innocent unit of shadow warriors or ellyrian reavers behind the hulking monster so when it runs (if your lucky or make the right calculations) from the mighty spearelves he gets trashed by the unforgiving ER or SW.

Of course many things can make this plan go wrong, i know ;)

That's really a good idea. But in general. A prince with vambraces and a 1+ save can take A LOT of punishment and not die. I've beaten off greater daemons with it. Even Str 6 is a 4+, 4+, 4++ against it and I've saved all the wounds they can dish out. So he's not generating any CR and your generating the full amount since he can't refuse the challenge.

sroblin
17-02-2009, 17:59
No, they do not. Nor do fast cav I think.


Fast Cavalry do negate ranks- (otherwise there's a lot of situations in which they would be useless!) However, they do not benefit from having a rear rank themselves.



I am seriously considering doing the Alith'Anar with 10 shadow warriors as opposed to my original archmage setup and use them as described above, rear charger's with Alith and 4-5 other elves with hatred should do a decent number on the enemy. Much less the turns of having a moble bolt thrower. I think the archmage might be more effective in the greater number of situations, but having those extra bows (and the moon bow) might be alright as well.


I don't know that I would expect rear-charging Alith Anar and shadow elves to be very effective. Alith Anar has only S4 attacks, and the Shadow Warriors are only S3; hatred is nice, but hitting isn't really the problem for High Elves, low strength attacks simply have a hard time wounding and penetrating armor. Of course helping out a ranked unit is another thing, but having Alith Anar in their only helps a little. I do agree that Shadow Warriors are disapointing for the points compared to Shades- (they got BS5and access to weapons and repeater crossbows!) Previously, at least they were more affordable, and I don't think hatred and WS5 were a good trade for 2 point increase.

isidril93
17-02-2009, 19:41
woops forgot about the talisman of saphery.
the alith anar combo is nice as it is really good at shooting. dangerous against weaker units

Solonor
17-02-2009, 20:07
That's really a good idea. But in general. A prince with vambraces and a 1+ save can take A LOT of punishment and not die. I've beaten off greater daemons with it. Even Str 6 is a 4+, 4+, 4++ against it and I've saved all the wounds they can dish out. So he's not generating any CR and your generating the full amount since he can't refuse the challenge.

Yes i totally agree with you, but as i said its situational, its just a cool way to deal with a specific problem, most of the time your build is much better since it covers other situations, the only problem is of course Weapons/abilities that negate armour saves.

Regarding Shadow Warriors, they are good scouts, but unfortunately they are expensive, i liked them better when they were less expensive even without eternal hatred and only ws 4. they now pay for abilities that dont have such large influence in their job.

Emeraldw
17-02-2009, 22:56
Regarding Shadow Warriors, they are good scouts, but unfortunately they are expensive, i liked them better when they were less expensive even without eternal hatred and only ws 4. they now pay for abilities that dont have such large influence in their job.


I'm starting to wonder what that "job" is. Since their BS4 and WS5 and their Champion has 2 attacks and not a +1 to BS, I would think they are CC scouts. Which I think is great and would be useful, only issue being that they have only 1, which with hatred makes it better but not so much to offset how they appear to be just archers with better melee stats.

Solonor
18-02-2009, 11:06
I'm starting to wonder what that "job" is. Since their BS4 and WS5 and their Champion has 2 attacks and not a +1 to BS, I would think they are CC scouts. Which I think is great and would be useful, only issue being that they have only 1, which with hatred makes it better but not so much to offset how they appear to be just archers with better melee stats.

Exactly, thats my feeling too, if they had two hand weapons it would define their "job" better. in the old army list they where good scouts too, but less expensive, and sometimes they where a good alternative to archers, because for 3 pts more, you got a skirmishing scout unit with light armor (and DE hatred). nevertheless i think the new rules still reflect their fluff better.

For now i think Ellyrian reavers with spears are about the same price and more flexible. i still take Shadow Warriors, because of scouting and the ability to use terrain better then ER. But with "only" BS4 and the need to be always moving to be effective, makes their bows less efective.

ZoomDog
18-02-2009, 11:41
Hi all,

Just started collecting HE, and have played a couple of games with mixed success. Couple of questions:
Any reason why our characters don't get a toughness bonus like other races? I know we're meant to be the 'fragile' race, but T3 on a Lord? :(

And what's our best method of taking out high toughness/armour save monsters? I played a 1,250 point game against Wood Elves, and was completely demolished by a Treeman. Hit him constantly with fire spells but the 6 to wound 4+ save prevented any wounds, and only got a wound or two from constant bolt fire.

Cheers!

Desert Rain
18-02-2009, 11:54
Try Spirit of the Forge, use power stones to make a L.2 get it of reliably. Also try to fire RBTs at them with the single shot option.

isidril93
18-02-2009, 12:00
Hi all,

Just started collecting HE, and have played a couple of games with mixed success. Couple of questions:
Any reason why our characters don't get a toughness bonus like other races? I know we're meant to be the 'fragile' race, but T3 on a Lord? :(

And what's our best method of taking out high toughness/armour save monsters? I played a 1,250 point game against Wood Elves, and was completely demolished by a Treeman. Hit him constantly with fire spells but the 6 to wound 4+ save prevented any wounds, and only got a wound or two from constant bolt fire.

Cheers!

well if he wasn't t3 he wouldnt be an elf (although i would have loved a character like the druuchii anointed).
also take armour of caledor and vambraces of defense your lord is not so easy to kill anymore

for large creature a hero on horse with star lance is always good

isidril93
18-02-2009, 12:02
shadow warriors might be armed with bows but hitting on 3+ and a rerol they can easily take out smaller t3 units. also they are really good against fanatics as in woods they can be hit by them

Emeraldw
18-02-2009, 17:04
Hi all,

Just started collecting HE, and have played a couple of games with mixed success. Couple of questions:
Any reason why our characters don't get a toughness bonus like other races? I know we're meant to be the 'fragile' race, but T3 on a Lord? :(

And what's our best method of taking out high toughness/armour save monsters? I played a 1,250 point game against Wood Elves, and was completely demolished by a Treeman. Hit him constantly with fire spells but the 6 to wound 4+ save prevented any wounds, and only got a wound or two from constant bolt fire.

Cheers!

All Elves are T3, it's just something you have to accept /shrug.

As to the game against wood elves. You can use White lions as they are Str 6 but I know how tough a treeman can be. Even if you followed Isrildil's suggestion of using a Prince with a star lance, Treemen have 6 wounds and only 3 attacks will not down it, also treemen are Stubborn on Ld 8 as you know.

At that, I would avoid the treeman at all costs, especially at that point level. 2k you can counter with other things like massed bolt throwers, a dragon or a big block of white lions, maybe a hero with a GW in a unit of spearmen forcing stubborn tests over and over.

Treemen are nasty, I play wood elves and everyone complains about how awesome they are, their just borderline broken at 1k.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
18-02-2009, 18:05
I thought the treeman's ward save was only useful against non magical attacks.. The lore of fire or whatever is like magic hehe. Take the lore of metal and make one of your spells a one. THe treeman has like a 3+ save? That dishes out like strength six hits with no armour save, no ward save, and it flaming.
Elves are fragile that's why we fight like ninjas ;) It makes the game more difficult which I kinda like. I like the need to be all tactical.

isidril93
18-02-2009, 18:22
i dont know why but t3 armies appeal to me (high elves, eldar, daemons slaanesh/khorne)

Angelust
18-02-2009, 18:22
Or if you take the spirit of the forge (number 6 spell), and get off 2d6 no save flaming S6 hits...that'll take out a treeman, sometimes in one turn. Wood elf anti-magic is kind of a joke too usually.

ZoomDog
18-02-2009, 20:24
Take the lore of metal and make one of your spells a one. THe treeman has like a 3+ save? That dishes out like strength six hits with no armour save, no ward save, and it flaming.
I was thinking that, but Metal is close to useless against the rest of the Wood Elf army; don't want to get a Mage and give him Lore of metal every time I face wood elves "just in case" he gets a Treeman.

Angelust
18-02-2009, 21:00
Lore of metal is still quite useful by itself. 2d6 s4 flaming magic missile, -1 to hit/wound/save, sniping an alter noble, etc.

Emeraldw
18-02-2009, 22:10
Or if you take the spirit of the forge (number 6 spell), and get off 2d6 no save flaming S6 hits...that'll take out a treeman, sometimes in one turn. Wood elf anti-magic is kind of a joke too usually.

To be more precise Wood Elf anti magic is overcosted. Our magic simply isn't competitive compared to other races casters.

You can usually bet there will be a treeman, but I would not rely on any single method and I personally believe that taking a mage lord (so you have the casting dice and better chance to get the spell) isn't worth it just for the treeman unless it fits into your overall strategy.

The best strategy imo, is to force stubborn tests over and over. This works out rather well actually. LD8 is good, but not that good. Further I would attempt to avoid the treeman. You could send normal spearmen at it and watch either the treeman run from SCR or slowly grind down the unit, but it will take some turns to do it and effectively removes it from the fight.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
19-02-2009, 03:37
i dont know why but t3 armies appeal to me (high elves, eldar, daemons slaanesh/khorne)

I like the challenge. When i was going to start 40k i got the Eldar codex and a box of dire avengers. I will get around to that game sometime in the next decade! No time! Too much painting :confused: I have hundreds upon hundreds of LotR models i would love to take the time to paint well.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
19-02-2009, 03:39
Or if you take the spirit of the forge (number 6 spell), and get off 2d6 no save flaming S6 hits...that'll take out a treeman, sometimes in one turn. Wood elf anti-magic is kind of a joke too usually.

It doesnt work like that. It is 2D6 models affected. Which means whether you roll snake eyes or not its just one unfortunately. Feel free to correct me if i am wrong i have misplaced my rulebook but thats what i remember.

ZoomDog
19-02-2009, 07:48
It doesnt work like that. It is 2D6 models affected. Which means whether you roll snake eyes or not its just one unfortunately. Feel free to correct me if i am wrong i have misplaced my rulebook but thats what i remember.

Nah, that's right. "...except 2d6 models in the target unit will be affected."


You could send normal spearmen at it and watch either the treeman run from SCR or slowly grind down the unit
What's SCR?

Thanks for the tips. :)

Emeraldw
19-02-2009, 13:17
Nah, that's right. "...except 2d6 models in the target unit will be affected."

From GW Errata

Page 113. In the ‘Spirit of the Forge’ spell, the last
sentence will be changed in reprints to the following:

‘The effects of this spell are exactly the same as the
Rule of Burning Iron described above, except the unit
takes 2D6 hits distributed like shooting.’



What's SCR?

Thanks for the tips. :)

Static Combat Resolution and NP.

ZoomDog
20-02-2009, 11:50
Page 113. In the ‘Spirit of the Forge’ spell, the last
sentence will be changed in reprints to the following:

‘The effects of this spell are exactly the same as the
Rule of Burning Iron described above, except the unit
takes 2D6 hits distributed like shooting.’

Oh. Oh I like that. Going down Treeman. :D

Deacon Bane
20-02-2009, 13:55
I can't find that Errata. Could you post the link?

GenerationTerrorist
20-02-2009, 15:07
I'm wondering whether putting a lvl4 Mage (as my general) on an Eagle would be considered a good idea?
Not overly keen on the Prince/StarDragon build because of the hefty point sink and arrow magnet it will become.

My current army is fairly mobile (2 units of 5 Reavers, 1 unit of 12 Silver Helms, 1 unit of 7 DP) and would like other people's opinions on giving my Mage that bit extra mobility than if he was on a horse.

Modaavi
20-02-2009, 16:18
I recently re-started High Elves (last played them back when they came in the box) and am in love with my Archmage on Eagle. He is very mobile, allowing me to avoid combat and deliver my magic wherever it is most devastating and the eagle is pretty cheap, so it doesn't cut in to my army the way a dragon would.

isidril93
20-02-2009, 16:35
giving it sacred incense would help as well

TekDragon
20-02-2009, 23:42
Dangit I messed up and posted in the wrong High Elf Tactica thread. Copying it to here:

Well, I'm getting close to going out to purchase my first HE army, but I'm stuck deciding between two completely opposite lists. God help me if I decide to get both. Could you guys read through this and tell me which one you prefer, and any major flaws? Be sure to read HOW I plan to use each list as well as the list itself.

The first list focuses on combat and mobility with 2 dragon prince groups of 8 (1 with 7 and a bsb with battle banner), 2 lion chariots, and a prince on a star dragon with vambraces of defence and a star lance. Core group involves 2 groups of 10 archers with 2 level 1 mage scroll caddies trying to get off dispel magic tucked away behind the advance of the chariots and dragon princes. If I take it to 2250 I can add 2 eagles, add 2 more DPs to each group, and add a trinket here or there. Both the 2000 and 2250 have 4 pd, 4 dd, and 4 scrolls.

That list would be all about hittting hard, hitting fast, and hitting from 3-4 different angles. Dragon up one side, Dragon Princes up the other. Chariots straight up the gut hitting anything that turns to one side.

The second list focuses on combat and magic one big phoenix guard block, full command, with bannder of sorcery protecting an archmage with the invincible robe, talisman, and silver wand, and a life mage with seerstaff casting howling wind. This block is flanked by two 12-man groups of swordmasters, full command. Two 10-man archer groups spread out 10-wide in front of the swordmaster groups to block some shots on the advance. The archer groups have a high mage with ring of fury and a fire mage with the starwood staff or dispel staff. Two eagles run up the side and try to tie up the artillery with archmage fire support. If I take it to 2250 I'd get one more fire mage, put him on an eagle, and put the other fire mage on an eagle too. That's give me a mobile magic wrecking crew to slow down an advance on a flank.The 2000 point list has an average of 14 pd and either 7 dd @ +2 dispel per dice or 8 dd. The 2250 point list has an extra 2 pd and 8 dd @ +2 dispel per dice or 9 dd.

That second list would involve a big scary melee group moving slowly up the middle, turning everything that gets within 24" into magic dust, and chopping anything that makes it through into pieces. The 2 archer groups spread out up front block magic line of sight (not too worried due to dispel dice) and shooting (not too worried due to Howling Wind). On the turn before they try charging my archers I'll pop Dragon Horn, then retreat the archer groups through the main block (no panic tests) and reform them to the sides to charge into any flankers to deny CR.

Also please note that neither of those lists use any named characters, they also have significant weaknesses. First army excels at mobility and combat but has next to no magic and very little shooty. Second list excels at combat and magic, but has only moderate mobility and very little shooty.

I tried to make them strong, fun to play, and fun to play against, with 2 big strengths and 2 big weaknesses.

Have no idea which one I want to play. The first seems a bit more fun, but I'd have to hit em hard and fast before my dispel scrolls run out. The second will probably be more competitive... but damn: 14-16 pd and 7-9 dd possibly at +2 dispel per dice. That might earn me some enemies, even with no shooting and little mobility, even if I'm not turtling but pushing out into the field.

ZoomDog
21-02-2009, 00:13
I can't find that Errata. Could you post the link?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470856_Warhammer_FAQ_2008-02_Edition.pdf
First page, right hand column.

isidril93
21-02-2009, 15:56
tek dragon dont take groupsof 4 but of 5. you get a rank bonus if you have 10 and can fight five wide, so more attacks

unless you are doing 5 then 3 DPs

sroblin
21-02-2009, 17:39
TekDragon, I personally think the second list might be more fun because of its more combined arms approach, can adopt a defensive stance as well as an offensive one, and basically has more to it strategically than charging straight ahead. That said, I have to admit that the first list seems more outrightly powerful.

That said, I think theres a few ways either list could be improved.

First List:
I don't think there's any use to having Dragon Princes in units 8 wide- as Isdril pointed out you need 10 for a rank bonus, and they will still almost certainly lose at least one to enemy shooting and magic, making investing in the rear rank pretty much pointless anyway (instead of paying 150 points for 5 dragon princes in the rear that won't fight, you can spend 25 on a war banner with the same effect). Instead deploy them six or maybe 7 wide, so they get the maximum number of attacks on the charge and can afford to take a casualty or two (something to be expected) and still be effective. A third units of DPs, or another support unit will be more efficient use of the points. You shold consider bumping up the mages two levels 2; with a magic item thrown in for 350 and 4 magic levels, they might give you a better return for their points then as 300 points of dispel batteries and only 2 magic levels.

Second List:
I think this one would benefit from the inclusion of a few chariots or small cavalry units to help out the Phoenix Guard in combat- (with only three melee combat units, the swordmasters will often have to fight their own enemies rather than be available to help the Phoenx Guard. They can hold their own, but the Phoenix Guard need the help to actually defeat the enemy rather than just tie them down.) I do find the archer-screen that-flees tactic rather clever, although keep in mind that such a precision tactic can easily run of its hinges; the archers will be easily shot up by a shooty army, or they might be prematurely charged (and forced to flee) by a fast enemy unit before the swordmasters are in position to charge a worthwhile target. But overall, I like it. You might consider Shadow Warriors as a screening unit too, though obviously they aren't core.

I think the second army seems like more fun for both players (more tactical, less centered around super units), but will be less able to dictate the battle than the first list because of its slower speed. Both lists are low on combat units and very character heavy, which may lead them to be swamped.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
21-02-2009, 19:37
I like the archer screen. I am going to try that. I think both lists are solid. The first is beastly whilst the second is more finesse. Good luck :)

innerwolf
21-02-2009, 20:22
I also like your second list Tekdragon. You use HE strengths without going over the top and it looks like a tactically challenging and fluffy army.

TekDragon
21-02-2009, 22:22
Thanks for the tips guys.

For the first list I'll drop the dragon princes down to 6 men each with a musician. That will give me the ability to field 2-3 of them with 2-3 lvl 2 mages. Need to whip out excel to see how the changes effect points, but the recommendation to lower the points in each DP unit gives me the opportunity to either do more units or strengthen my magic/dispel phase.

For the second list I agree the units may get overwhelmed, even with the archmage and 3-4 mages blasting everything to smithereens. Since the swordsmen will already have a archer shield AND a howling wind shield AND tons of dispel dice to keep them standing until the fighting begins, I'll drop the 2nd rank of each (6-7 men per unit vs 12) and add in some eagles. The eagles can swoop in once the main force reaches magic range and tie up 2-3 units for a turn. This will let my mages focus on the other units exclusively, wittling them down to the point that my melee units can handle them effeciently, then turn their attention to the remaining units. The swordsmen likely won't miss their extra rank since any enemies they fight will have been significantly weakened from running through my magic gauntlet.

To make both lists fun I'm going to play them both fluffy. In the first list the prince on the star dragon will be a disgraced leader from some political sleight. He is looking to regain his honor so will always charge the strongest unit or hero, no matter the risks. The dragon princes and lion chariots joined the disgrace prince's campaign for glory and honor, and will be equally reckless - calling out their favored targets early and both the princes and their lion chariot brothers racing to it to see who crushes it first.

The second list will be implacable. Always moving forward, slowly, never stepping back, never pausing. The enemies will expect such a list to be played as a turtle.. some kind of magic gunline with a sizable shield. Instead they'll find a host of elite elven infantry who march grimly to their goal, only pausing to flash their blade as the mages decimate any would-be flankers.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
22-02-2009, 01:45
I also like your second list Tekdragon. You use HE strengths without going over the top and it looks like a tactically challenging and fluffy army.

Well said thats what i try to shoot for for the most part. Over the top is not my way but i shall try it nonetheless against the ruthless veterans :angel:

innerwolf
22-02-2009, 06:38
To make both lists fun I'm going to play them both fluffy. In the first list the prince on the star dragon will be a disgraced leader from some political sleight. He is looking to regain his honor so will always charge the strongest unit or hero, no matter the risks. The dragon princes and lion chariots joined the disgrace prince's campaign for glory and honor, and will be equally reckless - calling out their favored targets early and both the princes and their lion chariot brothers racing to it to see who crushes it first.

The second list will be implacable. Always moving forward, slowly, never stepping back, never pausing. The enemies will expect such a list to be played as a turtle.. some kind of magic gunline with a sizable shield. Instead they'll find a host of elite elven infantry who march grimly to their goal, only pausing to flash their blade as the mages decimate any would-be flankers.

Hmmm, it gives me images of Conan hearted elves traveling to seek battle, and of LotR Last Alliance elves standing proud in front of the millions of foes.

Well done, you got some inspiring background ;)

crouchingotter
22-02-2009, 20:17
Hi Guys! I need some advice...

This weekend I played 2 1000pt battles against Vampire Counts. I scored two loses :(

My list looked like this:

Heroes
=====
Noble, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Star Lance, Gem of Courage

Mage, Level 2, Jewel of the Dusk, Guardian Phoenix

Core
=====
14 Spearmen, Full Command, Lion Standard, (Mage goes here)

Special
=====
7 Sword Masters
5 Dragon Princes
(Noble goes here)
1 Tiranoc Chariot

Rare
=====
1 RBT
1 Eagle

1000pts

First game against VCs I used Lore of Beasts, second game I used Lore of Light.

The VC List was:

Heroes
=====
Vampire
Dread Knight
OInfinate Hatred
Sword of Battle
Dispel Scroll

Core
=====
20 Skeltons, Full Command
20 Skeltons, Full Command
10 Crypt Ghouls

Special
=====
5 Black Knights (Vampire Goes here)
3 Fell Bats

Rare
=====
Varghulf


I had rubber lances, my Swordmasters failed to tear up anything that approached an average score. The Varghulf ran riot. The Fell Bats ate my RBT. My chariot fled into my Swordmasters. And my Spearmen failed to kill any Skeletons and then fleed 2".

Other than my dice rolls..... is there anything you'd change in my list?

sroblin
22-02-2009, 21:09
Hi Guys! I need some advice...
I had rubber lances, my Swordmasters failed to tear up anything that approached an average score. The Varghulf ran riot. The Fell Bats ate my RBT. My chariot fled into my Swordmasters. And my Spearmen failed to kill any Skeletons and then fleed 2".

Other than my dice rolls..... is there anything you'd change in my list?

Well, your list has about 30 models in it, and his has about 60, and that's including several very tough ones. You need to field a larger force, even at this points level, you're going to have to cut down on the support units because you need more meat on the bones of your combat units.

The Spearmen should be upgraded to between 18-21, so they can either get a full +3 rank bonus or a large number of attacks in 3 ranks. YOu may wish to consider reinforcing the Swordmasters so they can take casualties without losing attacks from the front rank.

At this points level, it is of questionable utility to be investing a lot of points in both a mage and a fighting hero, as well. That's like 30-35% of you force tied up in two models, but you really need more troops. The Guardian Phoenix is not really useful investment on a mage, btw. You really don't want any attacks to come there way, and if any do, it usually wont be enough to save them.

What kind of troops would help out? Another sturdy infantry or cavalry unit would be very useful (spearmen, white lions, phoenix guard, dragon princes) that can tie down and grind enemy blocks are good. Small elite infantry units or chariots are a good way of flanking and smashing enemy infantry that are being tied down by your own infantry. You may wish to keep your dragon princes in reserve to fence of the enemy cavalry and flyers. If you drop one of your heros and maybe an Eagle, you should be able to afford at least one of these things.

Regarding magic, if you really want to have strong magic in your army you may wish to invest in the banner of sorcery, and drop the mounted noble. Against VC, however, you may want to invest in anti-magic instead. THe Annulian crystal is good, possibly the Sigil of Asuryan, and dispel scrolls in general. The important things is to prevent him from casting vanhels, some of his summoning spells are going to get through.

TekDragon
22-02-2009, 21:30
Two level 2 (or lvl 1 if you really don't care about the casting) with one carrying the annulian crystal and one carrying the dispel staff is a hell of a lot of dispel power even in a 2000 point game, and should completely shut down a <2000 point game.

Your enemy gets 1 less power dice and you get 1 more dispel. That's huge since it's the equivalent of getting 2 dispel dice, only it's better because that 1 less power dice also means he can't dispel "remains in play" spells on his turn.

As HE, having the +1 dispel staff stacked with the default +1 to dispel means every dispel throw has +2. That means you should be VERY comfortable throwing a dispel dice to get rid of a 5-cost spell, and you should even feel ok about throwing a single one down to kill a 6-7 cost spell.

Throw in a banner of sorcery and suddenly your "pittance" 2 level 2 175-cost mages are playing with 7-9 power dice and 5 dispel dice, each of which gets +2.

And if you ever play someone who is absolutely ridiculous with their magic, just throw high magic on both the mages and make sure you get off at least one drain magic each round (4 cast attempts with the banner of sorcery) Game over, lol.

TekDragon
22-02-2009, 21:38
I wanted to get your guys opinion on some HE theory crafting.

Two level two mages, each on eagles. One with the ring of fury using high magic. One with the spell staff with fire magic (or something else with a default 5-cost damage spell).

The high mage gets 1 automatic 24" damage spell per turn. The fire (or other) mage has a 50% chance to cast their damage spell with a single power die. You even have less to worry about with dispel because the enemy will want to make sure they get rid of your drain magic.

Thoughts? Seems like a really mobile ranged strike force that can cast 2-3 fireballs on average WITHOUT touching the general pool and can get off a drain magic, plus generating 2 dispel dice in general.

sroblin
22-02-2009, 22:05
Two level 2 (or lvl 1 if you really don't care about the casting) with one carrying the annulian crystal and one carrying the dispel staff is a hell of a lot of dispel power even in a 2000 point game, and should completely shut down a <2000 point game.


While it is true that you can pack a lot of dispel power in with two mages, I don't think its necessarily very good value for your points to play magehammer in a 1000 pts army list. Sure, you shut down the enemys magic, but then their 850 points of other stuff are facing your 600 pt army. I think it's wiser to beef up your forces then tons of points in two models for winning magical superiority against an enemy that probably won't invest half as much.

TekDragon
22-02-2009, 22:16
While it is true that you can pack a lot of dispel power in with two mages, I don't think its necessarily very good value for your points to play magehammer in a 1000 pts army list. Sure, you shut down the enemys magic, but then their 850 points of other stuff are facing your 600 pt army. I think it's wiser to beef up your forces then tons of points in two models for winning magical superiority against an enemy that probably won't invest half as much.

Agreed, and you'd never tool your mages that way unless you knew you're facing a magic heavy enemy. Against a magic heavy enemy, though, one which is absolutely relying on that magic, that 350-400 points is very well spent.

crouchingotter
22-02-2009, 22:29
Well, your list has about 30 models in it, and his has about 60, and that's including several very tough ones. You need to field a larger force, even at this points level, you're going to have to cut down on the support units because you need more meat on the bones of your combat units.

The Spearmen should be upgraded to between 18-21, so they can either get a full +3 rank bonus or a large number of attacks in 3 ranks. YOu may wish to consider reinforcing the Swordmasters so they can take casualties without losing attacks from the front rank.

At this points level, it is of questionable utility to be investing a lot of points in both a mage and a fighting hero, as well. That's like 30-35% of you force tied up in two models, but you really need more troops. The Guardian Phoenix is not really useful investment on a mage, btw. You really don't want any attacks to come there way, and if any do, it usually wont be enough to save them.

What kind of troops would help out? Another sturdy infantry or cavalry unit would be very useful (spearmen, white lions, phoenix guard, dragon princes) that can tie down and grind enemy blocks are good. Small elite infantry units or chariots are a good way of flanking and smashing enemy infantry that are being tied down by your own infantry. You may wish to keep your dragon princes in reserve to fence of the enemy cavalry and flyers. If you drop one of your heros and maybe an Eagle, you should be able to afford at least one of these things.

Regarding magic, if you really want to have strong magic in your army you may wish to invest in the banner of sorcery, and drop the mounted noble. Against VC, however, you may want to invest in anti-magic instead. THe Annulian crystal is good, possibly the Sigil of Asuryan, and dispel scrolls in general. The important things is to prevent him from casting vanhels, some of his summoning spells are going to get through.

Well his VC list at the moment is magic light. But shutting even his one spell down is a good idea.

How's this for a revised 1000pt list?

Heroes
=====
Mage, Level 2, Annulian Crystal

Core
=====
18 Spearmen, Full Command
18 Spearmen, Full Command

Special
=====
10 Sword Masters
5 Dragon Princes

Rare
=====
1 RBT
1 Eagle

That takes out the Chariot, the Noble and the Guardian Phoenix from the Mage. Instead it gets me 4 more Spearmen for my original unit, plus another unit of 18 Spears. I have upped the Sword Masters to 10 so that they have a rank for the first round of combat and then they can increase their frontage in the 2nd round if needed.

Thanks to you and TekDragon for your replies.

Tactics against the vamp list would be to send a unit of Spears and the Sword Masters against the two Skeleton units. Keeping one unit of Spears to take on the Varghulf, he'd not last long against their CR.

The RBT would attack the Black Knights asap. The eagle would march-block the Ghouls. The Dragon Princes would make the Bats their priority.

The Mage would help shut down any "raise dead" spells or invocations of nehek.

Your thoughts on this revision are MOST welcome.

Thanks again guys!

Emeraldw
22-02-2009, 22:31
Keep in mind as well that normal Shooting will kill those mages easily. They are T3 with 2 wounds. You have to hope for randomization.

TekDragon
22-02-2009, 23:06
Keep in mind as well that normal Shooting will kill those mages easily. They are T3 with 2 wounds. You have to hope for randomization.


Well, yeah. But where the hell else would you put them?

[Edit] In that army, that is. Although I'd love to hear thoughts on mage placement in general.

garythewargamer
22-02-2009, 23:20
Your plan sounds as if it might work

sroblin
23-02-2009, 00:17
Well his VC list at the moment is magic light. But shutting even his one spell down is a good idea.

How's this for a revised 1000pt list?
That takes out the Chariot, the Noble and the Guardian Phoenix from the Mage. Instead it gets me 4 more Spearmen for my original unit, plus another unit of 18 Spears. I have upped the Sword Masters to 10 so that they have a rank for the first round of combat and then they can increase their frontage in the 2nd round if needed.

Tactics against the vamp list would be to send a unit of Spears and the Sword Masters against the two Skeleton units. Keeping one unit of Spears to take on the Varghulf, he'd not last long against their CR.

The RBT would attack the Black Knights asap. The eagle would march-block the Ghouls. The Dragon Princes would make the Bats their priority.

The Mage would help shut down any "raise dead" spells or invocations of nehek.


I like the looks of this new list very much, that said a few minor critiques.

I personally think the chariot is more worthwhile than the eagle at this point level (a little more expensive, admittedly). By teaming it up with the spearman, you can make them extremely deadly combined charges. I just think that that the eagle doesn't have as much to offer by comparison, but you may prefer its maneuverability.

I think your strategy is sound in general, but I'm not sure that you're spearmen are good unit to try to guard against the Varghulf because it is considerably faster and more maneuverable.

And when responding to Vampire magic, remember that the most dangerous spells is often Vanhels danse, if its put his units in a position to pull of a flank charge or negate a cavalry charge.

sroblin
23-02-2009, 02:01
Two level two mages, each on eagles. One with the ring of fury using high magic. One with the spell staff with fire magic (or something else with a default 5-cost damage spell).

The high mage gets 1 automatic 24" damage spell per turn. The fire (or other) mage has a 50% chance to cast their damage spell with a single power die. You even have less to worry about with dispel because the enemy will want to make sure they get rid of your drain magic.


One of the things I do appreciate about the High Elf book is how you can definitely make levels 2 mages into a potent magical force. And I do like taking one mage with the High lore, and another with a lore appropriate to the battle.

Unfortunately, I don't think that normal mages can ride Eagles, though I'm certain archmages can. Honestly, though, I don't know that you want to pay 50 points for 20" fly moves when a steed will do nearly as well unless there's extremely heavy terrain. Either way, the mages are vulnerable to shooting flying or riding on their own, and don't normally want to get too close to the enemy, especially when most spells have 24" range. (If they had the Druchii lore, that would be another thing...) High Elf core infantry (archers included) and Phoenix Guard are good bunkers in which to place mages. You can walk them out of the unit before they're likely to get in combat (and when lines of sight to enemy shooting are constricted), use champions to protect them from being attacked and so forth if they're caught in battle.

I also think the jewel of dusk (+1 power die) is more useful, and flexible, and better value for the points than the starwood staff (+1 to casting). Having a 50% to cast a 5+ missile (with the starwood staff), still means the spell fails half the time, which not only costs you the die but also saves the enemy from using dispel dice. Generally, its better for your spells to have a higher chance of succeeding. You probably want to include at least one dispel scroll in the mix, anyway.

Spamming basic magic missiles is good fun, but I think unit buffs/debuffs and higher level attacks spells are often more decisive (and higher casting level spells are harder to dispel). Take a lore if you want it an attack spell as a bare minimum, but really you should hope that you'll get something better (and with the seerstaff, you can guarantee it.)

TekDragon
23-02-2009, 06:15
I also think the jewel of dusk (+1 power die) is more useful, and flexible, and better value for the points than the starwood staff (+1 to casting). Having a 50% to cast a 5+ missile (with the starwood staff), still means the spell fails half the time, which not only costs you the die but also saves the enemy from using dispel dice. Generally, its better for your spells to have a higher chance of succeeding. You probably want to include at least one dispel scroll in the mix, anyway.

Thanks for the well thought out reply, sroblin.

WARNING! Only read the following if you're interested in the statistical comparison of using the +1 dice vs +1 to casting magic items on spells that cost 5, 8, and 12, as well as miscast percentages.

For each example we'll assume the level 2 mage is getting 2 dice from their personal pool, 1 dice from the general pool, and 1 dice from sorcery banner. The first mage gets +1 to casting, second mage gets a 5th dice. The number at the end, in parenthesis, is the percent chance of miscast after 5 turns.

5-cost spell:
4 dice @ 50% chance per cast = 2 casts on average.
5 dice @ 33% chance = 1.66 casts on average
or
5 dice @ 2 83% chances and 1 33% chance = 2 casts on average with 5.55% miscast (27.5%).

8-cost spell:
4 dice @ 2 58.33% chances per cast = 1.16 per turn. 5.55% miscast (27.5%)
5 dice @ 1 83.8% chance and 1 41% chance = 1.24 per turn. 10.2% miscast (51%)

12-cost spell:
4 dice @ 1 84% chance per cast = .84 per turn. 13.2% miscast (66%)
5 dice @ 1 94% chance per cast = .94 per turn. 19.6% miscast (100%)

I'll let you draw your own conclusion and I love to hear thoughts from anyone who loves theory crafting. I have a statistics program so I'll happily do other casting costs on request.

TekDragon
23-02-2009, 06:22
Unfortunately, I don't think that normal mages can ride Eagles, though I'm certain archmages can. Honestly, though, I don't know that you want to pay 50 points for 20" fly moves when a steed will do nearly as well unless there's extremely heavy terrain.

You are correct. I don't know what I was thinking. I checked my 6th edition High Elf book (I've been wanting to build a HE army for a while) and they can't in there either, so I don't even have that excuse :o

Now, you said that a elven steed is "almost as good". I'll accept that. Thoughts on barding? Is the extra armor save chance worth the speed reduction?

Also, thoughts on putting a mage in a chariot?

sroblin
23-02-2009, 15:54
That's some interesting statistics; definitely one of the appealing sides of casting spells on one dice is avoiding the chance to miscast! However, you have to keep in mind that each mage can only cast any particular spell once, so they might as well invest enough dice to cast it reliably, (2 for a 5+ spell for example), unless they have only a single power die left for the phase, or need to save them for another spell. One advantage of the starwood staff that I must concede is that it help lower level mages out casting spells they wouldn't normally succeed at (a lvl 2 mage couldn't use more than 3 dice (average roll 10.5) for example to cast 12+ spell, but his odds would be improved to nearly even by the starwood, while the jewel of dusk would be no help. In general, though, I still think the Jewel of Dusk is more flexible and certainly better value for the points (15 versus 40).

Re: steeds
Well, eleven steeds move 18" (and when deployed individually, can't be march blocked), the eagle can fly 20". The eagle does have the ability to fly over things, but probably it's best benefit is that shooting hits may end up wounding/killing the eagle (which has 3 t4 wounds) instead of the mage with a little luck. One the otherhand, the mage can tag along with cavalry for protection, although he loses some of his independent character mobility perks. The steed in the end is a lot cheaper and still very fast, the eagle's best benefit is protection. You can take it for an archmage if you want.

The barding is neither very expensive or useful. It will give you a 5+ armor save, which will be little-to-no protection against most ranged attacks. It might make a difference if you expect to run into a lot of S3 ranged attacks. But the best defense is either being attached to a friendly unit, or making sure you're out of line of sight for enemy ranged units.

Lafkak
23-02-2009, 16:20
Honestly, I think plopping an Archmage on an Eagle is pretty pants. You can't really get him any good protection (Folaraith's Robe is only for models on foot, IIRC) and S3 bowfire will just kill him since he's exposed, even with the randomization. Hell, even if all the bowfire (or, God forbid, anything stronger than S3, lol) hits his Eagle and not him, he will be walking around on his own in the middle of enemy lines. IMO it's just way too many VPs to be putting in such a vulnerable position -- I don't think you gain very much by it, except maybe a well-placed Burning Head if you are so inclined. Honestly I think Archmages should be taking High Magic, though, and 24" range isn't that bad for most of the spells -- you don't really need/want to be riding on an eagle when you need shorter range for Shield/Courage to be effective. If you just deploy him right he will be able to do just fine without flying around and getting killed by 1 RBT salvo or equivalent.

Now, if we're debating about the DRAGON mage, his free dice special rule and ability to swap for Flaming Sword of Rhuin definitely make it worth the risk, IMO. If he gets the Sword off he can be a nasty flank/rearcharger with his Sun Dragon, and even if he doesn't he can still have his dragon breathe on them while he pewpews with the aforementioned perfectly lined up burning head :) Throw in a fireball and a conflag and it's curtains for a lot of people, especially if you give him the Silver Wand: cast three times a turn and you're essentially getting 3 free dice. Of course, he's very, VERY vulnerable, so it's high risk, high reward. IMO the eagle archmage is high risk, low reward. You just aren't gaining anything by it.

isidril93
23-02-2009, 16:44
the dragon mage is a risky unit...but its one of those (imo) thatif you dont risk with it then it wont be worth the points as using the extra dice, even though it may cause a miscast has an equl chance of causing irressistable force. in comabt it can be a good flanker, halping out units that dont have a lot of killing power like sliverhelms and phoenix guard

MrWoten
23-02-2009, 22:11
Three questions;

1.) How deep\wide should I make the ranks of my Spearmen\Archer units?

2.) Is it worth mounting a Prince on a Gryphon? Or just go straight for an Eagle or Dragon? I've got both but I wanted to mount an Arch Mage on the Dragon ( <--- is this also a good idea? ).

3.) Are Thranac Chariots worthwhile ( I've got two ) or should I just buy the bits for the Lion chariot and convert them?

Thanks for your help!

TekDragon
23-02-2009, 22:55
Three questions;

1.) How deep\wide should I make the ranks of my Spearmen\Archer units?

2.) Is it worth mounting a Prince on a Gryphon? Or just go straight for an Eagle or Dragon? I've got both but I wanted to mount an Arch Mage on the Dragon ( <--- is this also a good idea? ).

3.) Are Thranac Chariots worthwhile ( I've got two ) or should I just buy the bits for the Lion chariot and convert them?

Thanks for your help!

I'd like to hear comments on chariots as well. Also the pro's and con's on putting characters in them.

Griffon vs Dragon - 30 points gets you a few more stat points and a breath attack. I think it's worth it. I also think all the dragons are worth it.

My feelings on HE core units - take the minimum if going archers (10 each, 10 wide, if you need more room), and take enough to do what you want to do in spearmen. If you're a heavy infantry army, go smaller (12-15) as they're support. if you're heavy calvary, the blocks may be left alone so slightly bigger is good to protect your mages (14, 17, or 23 +1 mage).

sroblin
23-02-2009, 23:38
Three questions;

1.) How deep\wide should I make the ranks of my Spearmen\Archer units?

2.) Is it worth mounting a Prince on a Gryphon? Or just go straight for an Eagle or Dragon? I've got both but I wanted to mount an Arch Mage on the Dragon ( <--- is this also a good idea? ).

3.) Are Thranac Chariots worthwhile ( I've got two ) or should I just buy the bits for the Lion chariot and convert them?

Thanks for your help!

1) Archers should generally be the minimum size; you can experiment with larger units if you feel you can really count on having enoughs hills to fire them in two ranks, but large archery units are still kind of cumbersome. It's usually better just two have 2 units covering different lines of fire.

Spearmen should be deployed in a minimum of 15 so they can have a +2 rank bonus and still have max attacks, but to be effective you should really have something 18-24, deployed either 6-7 wide for max attacks or 5 for the rank bonus. They should beat at a minimum 3 ranks deep, possibly 4.

2) It's widely agreed that upgrading to the Sun Dragon fromthe Griffon is more than worth the cost in points. The Sun Dragon is a significantly tougher, and comes with a breath weapon. The Griffon is only better if you really need to save the points or if you like the look fo the model better (an excellent reason!)

3) Tiranoc chariots are not a bad unit at all; they are an excellent support unit to launch combined charges with infantry like spearmen or phoenix guard, or pick on weak enemy units. However, they can't take on most units tougher than scouts or archers on their own- they're meant to team up with other units (such another chariot for example). They are very affordable for what you get.

The White Lion chariots are much deadlier, but they are nearly twice as expensive, a little slower, and are not very much tougher. They do significantly more damage, but they still can't defeat most units single-handed.