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Akuma
08-01-2009, 20:18
Ok - I've buyed DEATHWATCH KILL TEAM CONVERSION PACK I've Buyed 2x Box of Dark Angels Veterans - those beutifull models with robes - Painted them and added all bolters from conversion pack - I wanted them to by my stenguards - I hop on the table my opponent says that are not sternguards. Judge comes and says I can use them as normal tac squad but not as sternguards ... I mean come on ... all parts were from GW - I've noverted - those biiip guns are the same guns the Sterguard use ( deatchwatch had same rules for them - well almost )

Do you think the org abused his position - I've played with his best friend for the first game ( at least I had huge luck and totaly devastated the guy :D )

Would GW let me play them as Sterguard on Games Day ?

Velsharoon
08-01-2009, 20:23
I dont play tournaments or anything but seems wrong tbh as long as you tell your opponent before hand I would have thought it would be fine

RichBlake
08-01-2009, 20:23
Whether or not the organiser was cheating is something we'll never know as we can't really question him on it.

However objectivley I'd say that his ruling was unfair as clearly the torunament allowed "non standard" models as you could use them as a tactical squad. Unless of course the tournament had a strict rule saying that everything must be exactly WYSIWYG according to GW's model range in which case you were lucky to get them as Tactical Marines and serves you right for not reading the rules :P

loveless
08-01-2009, 20:25
Er...as long as they were obviously NOT tactical marines, there shouldn't have been a problem.

Questions for you:
1) Are all of your marines built using Dark Angel Veteran bits?
______If so, then the judge could have considered that there wasn't enough differentiation to warrant your "Counts As" as functional.
2) Are you using Codex: Space Marines?
______If you're trying to use Sternguard with one of the non-Codex chapters, obviously you couldn't, regardless of the model.

If the answers to both of the above are "No", then I'd call it an abuse of power.

Akuma
08-01-2009, 21:06
1) No I only wanted my sternguard to look diffrent from the rest of my army - Dark Angels Insignia were acctualy removed and I put Deathwatch ones instead

2) Yes I'm Using Codex Space Marines - My own invented chapters in which Stenguards dress in Red robes over a black armour ( I have a red black thame to my army - black body red shoulder pad and the wing of blood marking )

Occulto
08-01-2009, 22:51
The Judge sounds like a tool.

WYSIWYG is there to stop confusion (and potential cheating), not stop the use of conversions.

ehlijen
08-01-2009, 22:59
Those are the kind of people that give wysiwyg a bad name. And tournaments. Your sternguard were visibly different (moreso than the original GW ones even) from what I hear and there should not have been a problem.

blackroyal
09-01-2009, 01:20
Wow, that is ridiculous. Props for making your own Sternguard, they sound amazing.

Gensuke626
09-01-2009, 01:28
I'd love to see those sternguard. But yeah, tell the Tourney organizer that Warseer thinks he's about as intelligent as a snotling and smells worse.

Also, Pineapple drop him.

TheOverlord
09-01-2009, 02:09
Tourney judges are like GMs in WoW. Sure you COULD follow the rules, but there is sure to be one of them who has to have his own interpretation on said rules and ban you anyway.

Sounds absolutely unfair, but you'll need the backing of another judge if you want to plead your case. Which might or might not work, in any case that judge sounds like a complete power-tripping tool.

-edit- Oh, and your opponent also sounds like a complete ****. I agree with the pineapple drop option. (whatever that is)

Noserenda
09-01-2009, 02:55
Id certainly get a second opinion at least, thats ridiculous. :wtf: At best an outright ban on conversions at worst behaving like a spoilt child!

With the DW kit they seem dead on for Strenguard, Vets with snazzy bolters Viola! :chrome:

Orkeosaurus
09-01-2009, 03:13
Complete BS, from both the judge and your opponent, unless this was some very odd tournament that specifically prohibited conversions.

RichBlake
09-01-2009, 03:53
Complete BS, from both the judge and your opponent, unless this was some very odd tournament that specifically prohibited conversions.

That's what I was thinking, sadly as objective observers we have no way of knowing.

If there was no rule against conversions then the judge and the player were both being ******s.

Then again if they knew each other then I'm thinking the tournament wasn't very professional!

Gensuke626
09-01-2009, 10:03
Probably wasn't a professional Tournament, but the Judge really shouldn't be a douche just because you're fighting his friend.

Doomseer
09-01-2009, 12:13
That really sucks!

If your Sternguard were obviously different from your Tacticals and you had gone to the trouble of giving them the fancy Bolters, how could they not allow them to be used?!

The difference between the Sternguard and Regular Marine models is the Weapons and a few insignificant details, my understanding of the purpose of WYSIWYG is to avoid confusion with equipment between similar models.:confused:

I have just assembled and begun painting the Bonesinger model as my Farseer with Singing Spear, if anyone tells me I can't use it I am gonna go ape!!:mad:

I may just take a backup model just in case though;)

jfrazell
09-01-2009, 12:20
Ok - I've buyed DEATHWATCH KILL TEAM CONVERSION PACK I've Buyed 2x Box of Dark Angels Veterans - those beutifull models with robes - Painted them and added all bolters from conversion pack - I wanted them to by my stenguards - I hop on the table my opponent says that are not sternguards. Judge comes and says I can use them as normal tac squad but not as sternguards ... I mean come on ... all parts were from GW - I've noverted - those biiip guns are the same guns the Sterguard use ( deatchwatch had same rules for them - well almost )

Do you think the org abused his position - I've played with his best friend for the first game ( at least I had huge luck and totaly devastated the guy :D )

Would GW let me play them as Sterguard on Games Day ?

Thats not sane. Never ever ever play at that tourney again. Complain loudly and publicly to all you know about that tourney.

Edonil
09-01-2009, 13:42
You put the time and effort into your Sternguard rather than buy the kit, and they say you can't use them? That's incredibly stupid. As an aside- post pics of those Sternguard!

MrBigMr
09-01-2009, 15:26
If a judge came and told me that, I'd pack my army, then punch him in the face and walk out. If it happened to someone else, I'd hold the judge down while they worked on him. Total a-holism. I'd ask to see the rules for such things down to the letter. If they didn't make it clear before, and started making up rules as they go...

Then again, I've heard of people being thrown out of official GW tournaments for using too old GW models.

Lexington
09-01-2009, 16:18
In general, I agree with the others on this thread - it sounds like your conversions were completely within bounds, and elegantly so. The judge was wrong.

At the same time, I also have to blame you a little for playing 40K in a tournament setting, which is sort of like playing chess on a board made of grape juice. It's just wrong and doesn't work.

SpinningC
09-01-2009, 17:25
I would be of the position that if the unit segnificantly stood out from the rest of the army eg they were the only robed unit with snazy guns then Id let them fly as stern guard. I mean at the end of the day half the fun of the hobby in the painting and convertion side of things any way. Iv played at alot of tornyments and Iv never had a problem with units like that as it shows me that other people have taken the time to think about how they want there army to look and arnt just there for the win.

I think your judge was being abit biased if im honist i mean logic says that DA veteran modles would imply there a veteran especialy if the you havent made the rest of the army out of them. I have been in simular positions myself and I know its horrific. But you always have the knowlidge that you spen time on the look and theam of your army and that its not just strate out of the box and if push comes to shove in that kind of situation and your opponent has done simular drag your self down to his level and question one of his more powerful converted units.

Chris

wingedserpant
09-01-2009, 18:37
I personally wouldn't complain about any models. Facing sternguard isn't that bad and losing sportsmanship points is.

Rutteger1
09-01-2009, 22:53
your opponent who said they werent sternguard was a major *******. The sternguard are kinda bland (like suped up tac squad) and really pricy. Id rather play and play against custom ones... they sound awesome... I would have beaten the guy in 40k, and then just beaten him.

UncleCrazy
10-01-2009, 07:40
Wow that just sucks....

MrBigMr
10-01-2009, 09:20
By the way, what does it say on the DA box? Does it not say Dark Angel Veteran Space Marines or something to that effect? So using veteran models to represent veterans is not good enough. Point this out the next time, and if they still have a problem with it, then you can open a can of whoop-ass.

Adra
10-01-2009, 14:04
Firstly...i want those biiip guns. PEW PEW

Secondly....sounds very harsh. i use thouse models for my chaos chosen and no one has moaned to me. they have even less reason to moan at you.

Eldoriath
10-01-2009, 15:35
Those organisers and the guy were just *******. I have played at a tournament using my converted tau kroot warriors as i call them. I have used tau firewarrior models which i have taken away the large shoulder pad, used bare heads (half male, half female (bitz order for shadowsuns head)), greenstuffed on robes, slimmed down their pulse rifles and added knives in both ends and painted them up in forest camo. Then i have played them as a unit of kroots, and no one i met so far have had any complaint about it, neither any organiser. I have just said "this is my unit of kroots, and this guy is the shaper", and then we have just played as normal.

Frankly
10-01-2009, 16:11
Ok - I've buyed DEATHWATCH KILL TEAM CONVERSION PACK I've Buyed 2x Box of Dark Angels Veterans - those beutifull models with robes - Painted them and added all bolters from conversion pack - I wanted them to by my stenguards - I hop on the table my opponent says that are not sternguards. Judge comes and says I can use them as normal tac squad but not as sternguards ... I mean come on ... all parts were from GW - I've noverted - those biiip guns are the same guns the Sterguard use ( deatchwatch had same rules for them - well almost )



Thats just crap ... poos to your opponent I think.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
10-01-2009, 16:36
Ok - I've buyed DEATHWATCH KILL TEAM CONVERSION PACK I've Buyed 2x Box of Dark Angels Veterans - those beutifull models with robes - Painted them and added all bolters from conversion pack - I wanted them to by my stenguards - I hop on the table my opponent says that are not sternguards. Judge comes and says I can use them as normal tac squad but not as sternguards ... I mean come on ... all parts were from GW - I've noverted - those biiip guns are the same guns the Sterguard use ( deatchwatch had same rules for them - well almost )

Do you think the org abused his position - I've played with his best friend for the first game ( at least I had huge luck and totaly devastated the guy :D )

Would GW let me play them as Sterguard on Games Day ?

I can't make a judgment call until you post some reference pictures for me to look at. :angel:

In all seriousness, it sounds like the judge was being asanine. If you had put them on the table, gone halfway through the game, and then said "By the way, these guys are sternguard" then your opponent would have had a valid argument. Since you were up front about what exactly they were from the start there was no reason to complain.

Laser guided fanatic
10-01-2009, 16:48
Hmm next time this happens say to your opponent "I think i stratched your car on the way in, which one was it?"
"Oh it's the old ford focus with the aquila symbol on and the beard in the mirror."

Then go to his car and write your preffered slogan of anti-********* on it make sure to highlight, wash and varnish after.

More seriously though i would let someone use normal tactical marines as sternguard as long as it is WYSIWYG then it is fine. It does not say in the codex that Sternguard have to look any different from normal tactical marines and tbh it's stupid giving away who your veterans are (more so in fluff and rl than the game). Hell i would let someone use genestealers as sternguard it could be a disguise

MrBigMr
10-01-2009, 17:37
Hell i would let someone use genestealers as sternguard it could be a disguise
Only if there was a big zipper on the back.

Sidstyler
10-01-2009, 21:01
Sounds like a damn tool alright.

laudarkul
11-01-2009, 06:49
Such an as..ole.
And your opponent did not stick with you against that stupid organizer?:(Come on it is about sportmanship

Hicks
11-01-2009, 06:59
Wow, to see this in a tournament is appaling. This reminds me about the time I played against the unbeaten champion at the LGS. I unpack my flyrant and get told: "Your tyrant is the old edition so it's not WYSIWYG because of it's different size. You're cheating so I win this game".

kabum
11-01-2009, 07:35
My opinion is that you play the game to have fun, a good time and enjoy it. these start in the moment you cut and glum your mini with personal adaptations to your army image. Later you panited and played it.

If your army as diferent models that can be easy identified as Tactical marines and others as Guard... you said in advance that and the other side as problems is more possible that you opponent as more interest in winning than playing or maybe he/she sees himself unable to win a game an has to use such tactics.

About the refer... well I think he make a bad interpretation of the rules or as more common use his friendship wich players as guide over other things.

But thats just my personal opinion.

Congrats for your conversions. Sure thay give personality and deepness to your army.

mongoosedog300
11-01-2009, 07:38
Wow, to see this in a tournament is appaling. This reminds me about the time I played against the unbeaten champion at the LGS. I unpack my flyrant and get told: "Your tyrant is the old edition so it's not WYSIWYG because of it's different size. You're cheating so I win this game".

Did you punch him in the face and then walk away? or tell him that he's breaking the most important rule of the game, which is having fun for both people, and declare yourself the winner of the game?

On the OP, those guys are just power tripping w4nkers, because their mum's run everything in their lives

Bassik
11-01-2009, 08:07
I allways wondered how little controll these people have in their lives that make them so ... insane.

Orkeosaurus
11-01-2009, 17:27
Wow, to see this in a tournament is appalling. This reminds me about the time I played against the unbeaten champion at the LGS. I unpack my flyrant and get told: "Your tyrant is the old edition so it's not WYSIWYG because of its different size. You're cheating so I win this game".I think we know how he got to consider himself the unbeaten champion. :rolleyes:

Laser guided fanatic
11-01-2009, 17:33
Wow, to see this in a tournament is appaling. This reminds me about the time I played against the unbeaten champion at the LGS. I unpack my flyrant and get told: "Your tyrant is the old edition so it's not WYSIWYG because of it's different size. You're cheating so I win this game".

Hmm in that case i am the unbeaten champion of everything. (Apart from 40k he is the unbeaten champion of that, though i might beat him i just need to construct some argument based purley on crap and he will lose)

Giganthrax
11-01-2009, 18:17
That judge is a total lamer, and is unprofessional.

I had the same idea to make my sternguard from the robed dark angels models, and after reading this thread I'm not sure any more. ><

Tringsh
11-01-2009, 18:25
Dude, that's so poor... I hate people that basicly invent ways to cheat... also did he happen to goose step out of the room when you beat him? :p

Dictator
11-01-2009, 18:46
That was BS, seriously, unfair BS. I would commend you for doing such a conversion and not relying on the "plain" GW mini's. The Judge and the player were out of line in calling a disqualification on your sternguards. Oh yeah, and post pics of these guys somewhere they sound neat.

ShadowDeth
11-01-2009, 18:48
That is so absolutely ridiculous for any number of reasons.

The qualifications for sternguard being sternguard are : having bolters and wearing power armor.

Ta-dah!

The organizer was a cock, sorry you had to deal with that.

Thud
11-01-2009, 19:19
So, you've put effort into converting and personalizing your models and you get punished for it. Fantastic. :eyebrows:

Norsehawk
11-01-2009, 23:59
That is so absolutely ridiculous for any number of reasons.

The qualifications for sternguard being sternguard are : having bolters and wearing power armor.

Ta-dah!

The organizer was a cock, sorry you had to deal with that.

Pretty much what I was going to say, and I am going to do the same thing to make my sternguard and vanguard models... Only robes in the army (except for chaplains and maybe a few characters) and either bolters (or other special weapons) or melee weapons = instant stern/van and they are plastic so more modelable.

Orkeosaurus
12-01-2009, 00:09
I'm kind of thinking that this situation had nothing to do with WYSIWYG, and everything to do with the judge cheating for his friend.

Vaktathi
12-01-2009, 01:02
Ok - I've buyed DEATHWATCH KILL TEAM CONVERSION PACK I've Buyed 2x Box of Dark Angels Veterans - those beutifull models with robes - Painted them and added all bolters from conversion pack - I wanted them to by my stenguards - I hop on the table my opponent says that are not sternguards. Judge comes and says I can use them as normal tac squad but not as sternguards ... I mean come on ... all parts were from GW - I've noverted - those biiip guns are the same guns the Sterguard use ( deatchwatch had same rules for them - well almost )

Do you think the org abused his position - I've played with his best friend for the first game ( at least I had huge luck and totaly devastated the guy :D )

Would GW let me play them as Sterguard on Games Day ?


The tourney judge, and your opponent, were jackasses, I'd have picked up and left.

Honestly, what visual difference is there between Sternguard and Tac marines? They both wear identical pattern power armor, both use normal bolters (just different ammo) and have the same equipment.

brain_dead_1st
12-01-2009, 01:14
I would email them and just say "this is what happened"
Because sternguard are not easy to differentiate if you use GW models, and last time I checked you could use anything for veteran models as long as they were distinguisable (ish) from a non vet and if they are wysiwyg.
I bring to you item A) a burna boy, and item B) a kommado with burna
I also give you C) vet serg with power fist promo model and D) sternguard vet serg
I also give you E) spinegaunts and F) termagaunts,
I can go on, these models are so similar it takes inspection to see the difference and they are all GW...

Aside from the ranting this problem will come again and they need to be sure that the line that judge took is the policy for all tournies. I definately advise an email.

ungulateman
12-01-2009, 04:54
He's an ******* alright. It's not like the redshirts I know care- I've seen a Flyrant with Balrog Wings at my FLGS.

Also, nice idea for a conversion.

beeny13
12-01-2009, 07:28
I just wanted to say that I did the same thing and it turned out great, although I did use black templar tabards on some of them. I have the deathwatch bolters, but i'm using combi meltas and i think grenade launchers. something with a drum magazine on it that looks like a bolter. even if you just grab a black templars upgrade sprue and some deathwatch bolters it turns extra tac marines into decent sternguard.

miniwargaming
12-01-2009, 16:18
I hate playing against players like that. Fortunately we have had a lot of luck in having great players at our club and in our tournaments.

If anybody is that much of a stickler for WYSIWYG they are ruining the game for both themselves and their opponent.

willydstyle
12-01-2009, 16:49
The thing is, that's not even really what "WYSIWYG" means. By the letter of the law as long as they have the appropriate weapons modeled (IE combi weapons, special and heavy weapons modeled on) you can pretty much call any squad sternguard. You actually converted some models to look quite different so you were totally in the right. This isn't about people being "fanatics" about the WYSIWYG convention, and it's everything about them cheating to "support" the local player over you.

Orkeosaurus
12-01-2009, 17:29
The thing is, that's not even really what "WYSIWYG" means. By the letter of the law as long as they have the appropriate weapons modeled (IE combi weapons, special and heavy weapons modeled on) you can pretty much call any squad sternguard. You actually converted some models to look quite different so you were totally in the right. This isn't about people being "fanatics" about the WYSIWYG convention, and it's everything about them cheating to "support" the local player over you.Exactly.

Even the most fanatical WYSIWYG advocate has nothing to go in if the weapons and wargear are modelled.

This sounds purely like a judge cheating for his friend.
Probably too scared to face Sternguard or something.

ShadowDeth
12-01-2009, 20:12
So, you've put effort into converting and personalizing your models and you get punished for it. Fantastic. :eyebrows:

Seriously dude.

I've put thousands of dollars into this hobby over the years, and sometimes I just don't feel like paying a million dollars for a box of 5 metal models. If for whatever reason I was told my personalized models (either through being cheap or just preferring a different model) didn't count as what they were modeled to be, I would really have to cause a big scene.

And the judge would receive some physical vindication, and possibly have some tables flipped over. I'm not going to have one dork try to tell another dork (myself) what is or isn't legal when he doesn't have any ground to stand on.

I swear, power trips like this really get under my skin.

carldooley
12-01-2009, 20:24
considering that in the codex, not all sternguard have the targeters on their boltguns, I agree that the judge was a douche, next time do domething like:

"Why certainly, could you postpone the tournament so that I can go home, create another tourny army with my available pieces, print up some lists so that there is no future confusion, and drive back? Oh yeah, do you have gas money?"

FYI, I don't have tacticals in my list, so I have no problem with someone saying that their tacticals are now sternguard. for that matter, you could raise a ruckus about how everyone is supposed to tell the difference between a tactical squad and a similarly kitted devestator squad.

Fire Harte
12-01-2009, 20:53
I'd've complained and asked for my money back.

But before that I would have asked the tournament judges to decide or not. I ain't saying you are in the wrong at all. This was a fairly terrible judgement and a bit of tooling. Jammy gits. I suggest that write to them or complain and ask for further clarification.

P.S: Models sound awesome. Pictures are demanded.

DvlDog
13-01-2009, 05:46
Considering this is almost exactly what I have done for my Sternguard (though I haven't ordered the bolters yet), I'm going to have support you in this. Hell, they're even veterans.

Maxis Lithium
13-01-2009, 07:22
Well, we have all been siding with the player who posted this thred, so I'm going to play devil's advocate.

OP, Did you in anyway approch this in a rude or unsportsman-like fassion? Does the rest of your army also have robes (I doubt not, but I'm coming up with arguments) or was there some form of stipulation somewhere in the rules for the Tourny modifying the version of WYSIWYG they use?

I too believe that the tougny judge made the wrong call, but perhaps the judge was making a compramise between poor sports, or something to that effect (At least in his small mind.)

Also, the comment about the guy won wouldn't play the Tyrnid player because he was using the old Queen Big model...
Give that guy the great Canadian Marshel Technique; Boot to the Head!

Cornishman
13-01-2009, 09:58
I like the rest of the posters think that is totally not on, though personally I wouldnít have punched them in the face. I agree whole heartedly with what has been expressed previously in that I think all that is required to make a Squad Sternguard (or any other squad else for that matter) is 1) power armour 2) bolter (or other weapon as equipped) 3) Suitable Squad markings or other way to differentiate them from the rest of the bolter wielding power armoured marines in your army. Given that plain plastic marines each with a Terminator Honour pads would meet that requirement, a unit of robbed marines should be pretty darn obvious. Also because Ultramarine Tyranic War Vets are officially described as sterngaurd, itís not like a big box clip for your bolter isnít required.

Duce
13-01-2009, 10:53
would asking the judge what made them invaild not have helped? and then asking him to define his reason in more detail.

It may have mad eit slightly harder for him just to say no i dont likes them etc.

where as he'd have to have said i'm sorry but their looks dont match what we feel fully shows sternguard because of robes which are X... you get the idea.