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p3990013
09-01-2009, 08:46
Hello and happy new year :)

I was wondering how to use the steam tank against a gunline? After suffering 2-3 wounds (e.g. by a bolt thrower or cannon) the tank is not much use, so I was wondering how do I use it against this kind of armies?

Cambion Daystar
09-01-2009, 08:47
Hello and happy new year :)

I was wondering how to use the steam tank against a gunline? After suffering 2-3 wounds (e.g. by a bolt thrower or cannon) the tank is not much use, so I was wondering how do I use it against this kind of armies?

As a paperweight for your armylist :)

Dragon Prince of Caledor
09-01-2009, 12:07
lol thats funny! You could play someone like me that throws all manner of missiles at it including bolts hitting on two's that dont do any damage and steam everything else down. You can even protect it with magic so I dont think there is anything you can do...

Goruax
09-01-2009, 14:16
2 Celestial Wizards, pray for Celestial Shield.
Cast furiously/weep if you don't get it.

Chiungalla
09-01-2009, 14:28
2 Celestial Wizards, pray for Celestial Shield.


You can't even cast that spell on steam tanks, because of there special rule, if I am not terrible wrong on this topic.

Jawasa
09-01-2009, 14:59
Hide it behind terrain untill your cannons/pegasus captain have destroyed the enemy warmachins. Even if you dont get to use it it can guard a flank and dosent give up points.

Lord Dan
09-01-2009, 15:34
Split your force.

Take your steam tank and some perhaps slower things on one side, and maybe a quick unit of heavy knights and some other quick things on the other. This will either divide his fire, or force him to concentrate on one side entirely. Either way you're getting something big and nasty to his line, which could very well spell doom for a gunline.

Shamfrit
09-01-2009, 16:06
The fundamental flaw with the question is thus:

How to use the steam tank against a gunline = incorrect.

How to use steam TANKS against a gunline? = Correct.

Discuss.

hwd
09-01-2009, 16:19
Drive it to the centre of this lines and cause terror in his gunline. While your opponent spends time shooting the tank manouver the rest of your army to charge and win combats.

And yes this will work more than twice as well if you have two steam tanks and the rest of your army is knights.

Condottiere
09-01-2009, 16:31
Air support, armed with napalm.

Guy Fawkes
09-01-2009, 20:50
The Steam Tank suffers when offensively used against any army with more than one warmachine. Taking wounds makes fluffing steam rolls likely, so you lose the ability to completely grind units or get some cannon/flame shots. When facing a gunline, the Steam Tank might not really even be usable in a traditional sense. I feel the points would better be spent on something else, because few things are as utterly vulnerable to Cannons as a Steam Tank for the points or lose offensive ability per wound (and d6 wounds is crippling!).

However, one of the greatest strengths of a Steam Tank is often the most overlooked: it is a big points denial unit. In a 2K game for example, 2 Steam Tanks have a very nice 20 wounds between them with a 1+ armor save and great toughness to boot. However, unless you take off all twenty of the wounds, they don't give up victory points, being warmachines (obviously, killing one will get you its victory points, but I'm trying to say that you don't get half-points for bringing it down to just 10% of its starting strength). That's 600 points that are effectively untouchable if you can take out the enemy's bolt throwers, stone throwers, and cannons before they die (Generally practical if you include a good amount of fast stuff or some warmachines/shooters of your own. Even hardcore gunlines typically don't pack more than 4 to 6 warmachines).

Hide it until it's safe to move out. Try to move it so that terrain blocks line of sight, etc... You can still spread terror and shoot an 18" cannon (typically enough to hit the opponents from turn 1, if you account for cannon drift). It doesn't have to kill a whole lot of stuff to earn its keep.

Chicago Slim
10-01-2009, 13:28
Shamfrit has the gist of it. I was going to put it in my own, eloquent way:

You should recognize that 300 points of steam tank isn't going to do much, all my itself, against 500 points of shooting. If he's dropping multiple artillery pieces at your tank, then he's pretty well matching you point-for-point, just with that artillery...

As always, when you bring big stuff, it'll draw artillery fire, which may well wipe it off the map.* The trick is to make sure that the rest of your army uses that opportunity to advance and crush him-- because THEY weren't being shot, with the big guy drew fire...

That said, there are ways of helping your tank... Start it behind terrain as much as possible. Turn 1, advance up 15" (5 points x 3" each). Get shot. Turn 2, advance up 6" or 9", depending on quite how much damage you took. That'll put you in range to Terrorize something on the front edge of his deployment zone, and give you a chance to charge things that have advanced.

Park it, leave the keys for the valet. Shoot the gun sometimes, if you have a decent target or if it seems like you might get him to turn his artillery back towards the tank, by making it seem like a threat.

But, yeah, don't expect a single 300 point unit to destroy his entire army... :)



* (as Guy points out above, it's unlikely that you'll actually LOSE the Steam Tank, since people will stop shooting it when you stop using it, so you won't actually lose the VPs for it).

Oberon
10-01-2009, 14:48
Take a pegasus captain or two, a war altar, and two steam tanks plus some cannons of your own, hide altar&tanks behind terrain (captains should be there too) and then rush with them all at once. It has to be quite a gunline to stop all threats, while taking hits from your cannons at the same time. *

Thorek-gunline could do it, shooting your captains, slowing&shooting your tanks and altars.

So one tank=not enough, but many many different threats (including tankS) is much better. It might not get you any friends, but around here a single tank with no support manages that too.

Rodman49
10-01-2009, 19:44
They'll shoot your tank but the rest of your army can advance, it means they aren't shooting at the rest of you. And they'll have to put all their shooting at it to destroy it.

bored1
10-01-2009, 20:12
For the first turn, you minimize LoS to your 2 tanks and war altar. Use your 3 lvl 2 mages (hopefully with many magic missiles) and 4 cannons to target enemy war machines. Your opponent will sit there trying to figure out how to take out the tanks and war altar, or maybe the 3 units of knights you brought, while you shoot/magic out his artillery. Then advance the tanks into the remnants.

Guy Fawkes
10-01-2009, 20:21
They'll shoot your tank but the rest of your army can advance, it means they aren't shooting at the rest of you. And they'll have to put all their shooting at it to destroy it.

I don't really like this kind of thinking, because generally you would prefer the opponent shoot at your 5 point guys rather than your 300 point guy. Even though the Steam Tank is survivable, I would say that 60 infantry are more resilient for their points than the Steam Tank. Also, generally the Empire is more suited to trading fire with a gunline, rather than advancing into it. I say this because Empire is cheaper per gun and has better long range options.

For example, Empire has 30" Crossbows, which can take out expensive Thunderers with impunity. Cannons from Empire are the best in the game, and Helstorm Rocket Batteries can hit the enemy at a range that the Flame Cannon and Organ Gun can't. Empire is also one of the best armies for taking out enemy artillery.

Against traditional gunlines, you are facing an opponent that can wipe out units when they start crossing the board. Since handguns are 24" in range, you have a predicament. Whoever advances first can't shoot, but will get shot at on his opponent's turn. However, Empire is better at long range than just about anything besides Wood Elves, and can sprint out with units that are fast. If you hide the Steam Tank and then rush out to claim/contest a table quarter in the last turn with its impressive 15" move, along with some fast Pistoliers and the like, you can rely on Steam Tank survivability to make it through one turn and win through VP's and points denial.

fubukii
11-01-2009, 12:43
use great cannons to snipe enemy warmachines or kill them with a captain on a peg. Bring out stank after the big threats are gone.

Rodman49
11-01-2009, 12:57
I don't really like this kind of thinking, because generally you would prefer the opponent shoot at your 5 point guys rather than your 300 point guy. Even though the Steam Tank is survivable, I would say that 60 infantry are more resilient for their points than the Steam Tank. Also, generally the Empire is more suited to trading fire with a gunline, rather than advancing into it. I say this because Empire is cheaper per gun and has better long range options.

What? So you're saying fight a gunline with your own gunline? For the record I have never seen a gunline army win a game - in a decade I have NEVER seen it happen. I've seen a few Dwarf players try to run it and they get mulched.


For example, Empire has 30" Crossbows, which can take out expensive Thunderers with impunity. Cannons from Empire are the best in the game, and Helstorm Rocket Batteries can hit the enemy at a range that the Flame Cannon and Organ Gun can't. Empire is also one of the best armies for taking out enemy artillery.

Srsly? Trying to out shoot Thunderers with Crossbowmen seems an awful idea. You're looking at like 0.14 kills per shot with only one extra turn of fire. Thunderers kill Crossbowmen at a rate of 0.33 per shot - more than twice the effectiveness - which is more likely to end up causing a panic check in one turn.


Against traditional gunlines, you are facing an opponent that can wipe out units when they start crossing the board.

So you lose one or two of your 3-5 combat effective units - big deal, they might have 1 or 2 combat units to compete with what you have left - you can just avoid those blocks and mop up the rest of their army for loads of VPs.


If you hide the Steam Tank and then rush out to claim/contest a table quarter in the last turn with its impressive 15" move, along with some fast Pistoliers and the like, you can rely on Steam Tank survivability to make it through one turn and win through VP's and points denial.

:eyebrows: Your going to use a 300 point unit to take a 100 point table quarter? Why don't you use a 40-80 point archer detachment instead and let the enemy army try to shoot your tank while your other three to four combat units mop of the rest of his army, contest his quarters, and ruin his day?

Cambion Daystar
12-01-2009, 07:23
Srsly? Trying to out shoot Thunderers with Crossbowmen seems an awful idea. You're looking at like 0.14 kills per shot with only one extra turn of fire. Thunderers kill Crossbowmen at a rate of 0.33 per shot - more than twice the effectiveness - which is more likely to end up causing a panic check in one turn.


Except that the crossbows are with 17,5 vs 10 thunderers and get 1 extra round of shooting. Thunderers will loose the shootout:
(i gave thunderers first turn to move into range).

17,5 crossbows vs 10 thunderers (equal points)

turn 1: Dwarfs: no shooting, moving into range
Empire: (17,5/6)*(5/6)= 2,4 dead thunderers

turn 2: Dwarfs: (7,6 /2 )* (2/3) = 2,5 dead crossbows
Empire: (15/6)*(5/6) = 2,1 dead thunderers

turn 3: Dwarfs: (5,5 /2)* (2/3) = 1,8 dead crossbows
Empire: (13,2/6)*(5/6)= 1,8 dead thunderers

turn 4: Dwarfs: (3,3 /2)* (2/3) = 1,1 dead crossbows
Empire: (12,2/6)*(5/6)= 1,7 dead thunderers

turn 5: Dwarfs: (1,6 /2)* (2/3) = 0,5 dead crossbows
Empire: (11,7/6)*(5/6)= 1,625 dead thunderers

edit: i counted the thunderers' armoursave as a 5+ (always give the shields) , so they are even more expensive (extra crossbowman should be counted).