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View Full Version : Why can't my WoC win big games?



Artemis360
09-01-2009, 15:33
I started WoC the minute they came out in the new edition and I was instantly pleased with my initial games. At 1000 points I had a good kill/win ratio but now I've hit a snag. When I got up to 1500 or 2000+ my lose rate goes up a lot. For some reason I just can't seem to win with WoC in big games. Anyone else got this problem?

Mostly I field something like this:
Exalted on Juggernaut
Sorc on foot or disc, usually just for magic defence
1 - 2 units of knights, sometimes with warbanner
Some doggies
2 sets of horsemen with flails, sometimes MoK
And then some fillers, sometimes D.Ogres and such like.

Usually I find the enemy can do quite a lot of damage before I get to them but with a character on my knights with collar of khorne and maybe the blasted standard against a gunline I'm fine. But in big games it all falls apart. Any suggestions?

kris.sherriff
09-01-2009, 16:02
I run a list like yours with no static combat res and it is hard to use. I think the pure hitting power of the Exalted and Knights would have been carrying you through in smaller games but as soon as you are faced with multiple units with good static combat res you are at a loss at what to do.

You can either get some foot troops of your own to bulk out your force and give you some anvils to draw your opponents on to or keep going with your fast theme but if you want to keep the list fast you will need to change some things around as the MoK is a liability when you have such a small army.

I would change the flails on the horsemen for spears or axes an use them to harass and slow down the enemy so that you can take your time to pick your fights. If you keep the flails you are forced to commit them to combat to make use of them but they just done cut it in the type of list you seem to want.
I would also try to get a BsB in there as he can keep your units in the fight if you fluff a round of combat. A bsb on jugger with the war banner can give you a good bit of static combat res and will most likely hold his own against "normal" infantry even if he fluffs his attacks. The slaaneshy banner that lets you pass Ld tests on a double or a 1 is good on the knights as you can use them to hold against almost anything and with a champion is a good way of challenging out a hitty lord on monster. Champ dies, unit holds and you get to counter charge with something hittier of your own.

Oh and you can't afford to have anything in your army that is a "filler" everything is so costly that if it does not have a job it should not be in the list.

I can go on if you like but don't want to send you to sleep if this is not the type of thing you are looking for.

Kris

Shamfrit
09-01-2009, 16:03
Mostly I field something like this:
Exalted on Juggernaut
Sorc on foot or disc, usually just for magic defence
1 - 2 units of knights, sometimes with warbanner
Some doggies
2 sets of horsemen with flails, sometimes MoK
And then some fillers, sometimes D.Ogres and such like.

There are plenty of places that points can be saved in a Warriors of Chaos list, and command groups are certainly one of those: the Knights, I've tried them with command, with partial command, with banners or without, but they work most effectively with no command, and the Mark of Khorne, in groups of 5 for 230 points. You can counterpoint with 'frenzy and bait' as much as you like, at 1500 or less, there is very little, very little at all that can effectively deal with a charge from those knights, and ranged? Well, that's the obvious answer to any cavalry, you've got T4 and 1+ saves to hopefully help you out somewhat there.

If you've only got one sorceror, and he's only going for magic defence, I'd consider dropping the mark, dropping the disk, giving him a scroll, the Enchanted Shield (unless you're using it on your exalted) and keeping him the hell out of the way of anything. This gives you 3 DD to take down the big spell of the turn, and a scroll for the game winner that you could otherwise do without.

You shouldn't really be having 'filler' points in a Warriors list, you've too many options (it's up to you if you think they're viable or not, that's for another thread altogether) and too few points to spend to whack something in without thinking of the implecations for the rest of your force. So, to suggest a core force with what you've mention thus far I'd go:

Exalted of Khorne
Flail, Juggernaut, Enchanted Shield. (Keep him simple, very simple. Switch between Flail and Shield depending on opponent.)

Sorceror, Lvl. 1
Scroll, defence if needed, a Chaos Steed would suffice, and is cheaper than the shield if you don't use it on your Exalted. No mark.

---

5 Knights of Khorne
230

5 Knights of Khorne
230

5 Marauder Horsemen
Flails, Mark of Khorne
110

5 Marauder Horsemen
Flails, Mark of Khorne
110

5 Warhounds
30

5 Warhounds
30

---

Now, you've mentioned the big 2k games...you've access to a Lord slot now and you'll need to buff ranks, and expand your force to cope with whatever opponents you're likely to face.

Now you can add a third character (try not to take 4 characters in 2k, especially with Warriors, you don't need that many, and you will still have plenty of points to build a sizeable force.) Either upgrade your lone sorceror to a Sorceror Lord, Lvl. 4, and switch the Exalted to a BSB, or possibly switch Exalted for a Lord, and add another Sorceror for 2X Lvl 2 and some potential spell casting going on. Remember, keep them cheap! You've got the combat potential on a Lord, without spending any magic item points on improving it, a Mark of Khorne Lord on Jugger with a Flail is, after all, a 6STR7 + 2STR5 monstrosity, the points are best left on defensive items (immunity to KB and poison etc) or on sneaky tricks to add to his potential.

I don't like Marauders. So I won't suggest them, but will leave that option for somebody else, and I'm not sure if Warriors will work here in a strictly traditional sense, so I will suggest the LAg Units, a unit of 10 Warriors of Khorne, with Halberds/Shields, to move behind your line to deal with anything should your cavalry charges fail. A third unit of Knights is always a huge bonus, as this should cover the board, most of it, with a 14" charge arc.

You'll need to minimise the effectiveness of enemy fliers so a few cheap magic missiles and Bloodcurdling Roar should be considered, an Exalted + Steed of Slaanesh works wonders as a Fast Cavalry Hunter Killer for lone characters and the like, especially Wood Elves!

The Warriors army is a difficult one at 2K+, it works divinely at 1500 or 1000, much in the same way that Tomb Kings don't come into their own until 2K, and the same can be said as an 'optimal range' for all armies to some extent. You need to work together, and I mean iron tight communion between your units, because you've got a glaring weakness in march blocking, and being surrounded, and a slow, but unmatched infantry force. Get it right, and you're laughing, and expect to lose alot at first, but once you weed the chaff from the mortals as they say, you should see your rate go up a bit as you get the hang of an otherwise difficult to utilise army.

No point and click here, should I say :D

EDIT: Kris Ninja'd me on some points, so sorry if I sound like I'm repeating!

Cartoon
09-01-2009, 16:05
It seems like you run a lot of Khorne, so I don't know if this will help you but I've found magic the way to go in big games. A sorcerer lord and one or two level twos can really bring the pain when you need it. Usually I like to field a unit or two of marauders as meat shields for my chosen and other hard hitting stuff which seems to help.

Really though using WOC is an uphill battle against any army that can shoot. We really don't have much of an answer for it, and we can also be march blocked horribly easily. It would be nice if forsaken were skirmishers, but alas, no such luck. The best advice I can give is to try something new and take some more magic and maybe a hellcannon or a slaanesh giant. You might have better luck.

Jericho
09-01-2009, 19:21
Generally I've found that most armies that rely on pure CC ability struggle past 1250-1500 pts. Unless you have some incredibly overwhelming speed then you almost always need to be strong in more than 1 phase to win. With no magic/shooting you are going to be fighting an uphill battle when you charge a bunch of untouched blocks of troops and their supporting units/characters.

Again if you want a pure combat army, then going cav-heavy is definitely the way to go. You neutralize the effect of enemy shooting/magic by:
a) being fast enough to get stuck in early
b) having no soft targets, let's face it it's pretty tough to crack T4 1+ save cavalry at range without using high strength war machines or some pretty badass magic

Adding in some Sorcerers is nice because you get more ways to neutralize enemy shooting/magic. Puppet makes a lot of spellcasters nervous, especially if you have a Tzeentch mage casting Pandemonium. The direct damage spells are self-explanatory. Spells like Fleshy Abundance, Aura of Acquiescence and Hysterical Frenzy can be a huge boost at times as well, they are solid buffs for your troops.

Honestly, after playing with Wood Elves for the past year, I have a hard time going back to clumsy armies like WoC. Let's face it they are a sledgehammer, not a scalpel. They can have combinations of speed and power, but they lack the finesse and maneuverability of many other armies. Lacking in Scouts, Skirmishers, and flying units is a huge pain in the **** for WoC. Honestly even just Furies would've been nice, but whatevs. Disc riders will have to do :p

W0lf
09-01-2009, 20:12
I actally think we also suffer from lack of stubborn troops.

Imagine if chosen were stubborn. Id take a small unit with shields to try and hold larger more expensive units.

TroyJPerez
09-01-2009, 20:29
Take the Banner of the Gods! In big point games its a lifesaver.

HughbertofKhorne
09-01-2009, 20:50
in a 1500 point game I field

20 marauders with shields and light armour with a full command

12 chaos warriors with shields and full command (I know many people would disagree with the choice here but I love infantry, its a solid block for the rest of your army to revolve around and provides some much needed static CR to the army)

These are backed up with 2 units of 5 chaos hounds to act as flankers.

There's also a Sorcerer running around with the LoD but thats purely cos I love sorcerers (in my army he's the only character because he's become something of a "special character" in my troupe)

A Lord on a Jugger is a good choice mind.

Now on the right flank of the army I have5 chaos knights with ensorcelled weapons, full command and rage banner these guys are there to storm up the flanks of the enemy army.

As is the unit of 4 Dragon Ogres on the left flank.

I stick a giant in between the warriors and the marauders to solidify the core of the army.


Now the idea behind it is. the Giant, hounds, warriors and marauders march forward (at the same pace) yes you're going to take some casualties from shooting, but if you give your sorc a couple of dispel scroll you can negate some of the magic casualties at least. There should still be some of the core left to take a round or two of fighting on the chin when you get to the enemy.

now while this is going on the Dragon Ogres and Knights have plowed into the flanks of the enemy army and as the centre blocks of infantry meet, these two units are rapidly curling up the enemy army before swinging round charging enemy units engaged with your units, in the rear.


it doesnt always win mind, but it never loses horrifically

Blueskies
10-01-2009, 06:22
From what I can tell your playing a fast khorne army, which is viable, although I would have alot more then some doggies, usually I take a set of hounds for every frenzied unit to screen them against pesky lures.

Personally I would avoid marking everything with khorne as you are losing alot of points for that frenzy which sometimes deals you more harm then good. What your probally expereincing especially since you play mostly cavalary, is that you are being outnumbered exponentially as the game size gets bigger, your 5 knights while are gods in a 1k army and do well in 1.5k start getting cut down easier in 2k armies against the likes of bolt throwers/artilery/greater daemons. Taking a primarily cavalary army, means you are relying purely on fast decisive charges that secure board positions forcing your enemy to manuever slower infintary blocks, this is however unable to work if you are completely frenzied up as they can send out some scouts and mess your formation up entirely.

Say in 2k. I will keep this fast and hard, as I see you are not interested in warriors/marauders or playing the magic phase or holding any type of defensive position.

Hero on jugga with a shield is a 0+ armour save beast and can be hidden in a unit of knights/marauder or fielded on it's own. he is cheap simple and can take out arche units/skirmishers/light cav on his own.

lvl 1 Sorc on barded steed with enchanted shield and scroll is anouther 0+ armour save hero adding you a dispel dice and scroll for magic defence.

I would add a 2nd lvl 1 sorc on a chariot with anouther scroll, that way you got 4 dispel dice and 2 fireballs a turn that your attempting on 2 dice a cast, and 2 scrolls to protect your very expensive troopers from those nasty suprises. fireball is still a handy spell against skirmishers.

your going fast and hard so you don't really need a bsb,

2 units of 6 knights with standard and mark of slaanesh, while mark of khorne is handy to make them more fighty, knights do very well without the frenzy and if they can't bait you, it makes it harder for them to manuever. magic banners are really an up to you thing, warbanner is great, so is rapturous standard but you are hoping for a charge and a massacre in hth, if it is going to come down to a "if only i had warbanner i might of won by 1, then that means you made a risky charge, and should probally of tried to get some light cav/dogs in the flank at the same time"

2 sets of 5 marauder horsemen with flails and mok are fine as long as you take 2 sets of 5 hounds to screen them too. a third and forth unit of 5 marauder horsemen with shields and spears and mark of slaanesh gives some flexibility so that you have some light cav that can run down artilery without having to suffer panics from shooting/fear/terror or get lured off to anouther target.

4 dragon ogres with great weapons are awesome shock troopers and can take out heavily armoured unit on a charge easily (alot of people say 3, but I like 4 since you can fit all 4 into hth against most rank and file blocks, just not bret lance formation)

take a 2nd chariot to support the first, possibly mark of khorne this chariot so that while it can be lured, people will be wary of getting close to something that can deal impact hits and still have 6 str 5 and 4 str 4 attacks, take anouther 5 hounds to cover this at the start from baiting.

and there you have it around 2k

totalling 6 cavalary blocks, 2 chariots, a unit of dragon ogres, 3 blocks of hounds to cover each of the frenzy units. Chaos is substantially smaller then other cavalry armies, in the way that they can get bigger blocks or more heavy cav for the same cost, almost every game will require you to field heavily on one flank with 1-2 units watching mid field to prevent excessive maneuving by providing flank charge threats and a unit or two depending on what army your against to run down artilery.

If you try to field across the whole frontage then you'll have problems against high SR armies, as while you will get some wins, you will get some losses, and that is just how the dice will fall. So crush a flank and ry to hold their army from completly manueving to correct against your speed and then just roll through then from the middle front and flank at the same time.

Da_Greeniest
10-01-2009, 15:42
I agree with the point that at larger point games, you need to be strong in more than one phase. With the extra points and slots available to you to do so, it would be silly not to.

I would personally reccomend investing in magic, simply because it has a dual benefit. The more powerful your magic is, the better chance you have of stopping the opponent's magic if they have any. And if they don't? You can blast ranks unopposed.