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bomblu
09-01-2009, 16:04
Hi Warseerís,

Iím currently planning to make an Empire Army as Iíd like to have a second army apart from my current mini High Elf force. So what Iím aiming for is a force which uses reasonable firepower (couple of canons and hand gunners used as detachments), about 2 wizards, state troops, some cavalry and Great Swords with maybe some Flagellants. Rather than a normal general I fancy having a Warrior Priest leading my army as Iíd like my army to represent Sigmarís followers; Iíll probably name my force ĎSigmarís Apostolateí.

Iíve got a general idea of how an empire army is structured though being that I want it to be a relatively themed army, I donít know what units I should use. Apart from that, I donít know which units work better than others.

My first question concerns the State Troops. Though Iíll 99% make a unit of 20 Swordsmen, Iíd need at least another unit of Troops. Should I make another unit of Swordsmen or should I go for Halberdiers or Spearmen? And are two units of State Troops enough for a 2k pt army?

My second question for now would be going for Great Swords or Flagellants. One unit is special whilst the other is Rare. Even though Iíll purchase a Steam Tank I donít know how useful/worth it itíd be in a 2k pt army.

Thanks,
Andrea Ďbombluí Meli

hwd
09-01-2009, 16:11
State troop wise I think swordsmen are the best overall. Fluff wise empire armies should mostly be halberdier but these suck rules wise. I play a unit of swordsmen and a unit of spearmen (20 each) but I do this as these are the models I have.

As to greatswords or flagellants, I would go for flagellants every time. Dont forget that if you take a warrior priest, one of your flagellant units can count as a core choice. I run three units of 21 flagellant at 2000 points. People are cautious of these units as with a bit of luck and a decent sacrifice you can chuck out 15 strength 5 attacks re rolling hits and wounds...

Hope this helps

Hwd

Necromancer2
09-01-2009, 16:47
can a preist join the Flagellants?

Coram_Boy
09-01-2009, 16:55
how big is this force? if it is 2000 points, your priest really should be the arch-lector on the war altar with Van Horsstman's Speculum. If not, a priest with the armor of meteoric iron or even a barded steed, heavy armor and shield , and a V-H-Speculum could do the job - getting into combat with horrible characters and giving them your stats.

DJ Soulstar
09-01-2009, 16:56
can a preist join the Flagellants?

No he can't.

ZeroTwentythree
09-01-2009, 17:21
Yeah, if you want a WP general, go for the arch lector since he's essentially the uber-WP. WAlter and equipment are up to you, however.

Swordsmen are slightly better than the other options, but use whatever you prefer. The debate on this is potentially endless. You might consider bumping their number up to 25 or more, though, so you can afford to lose some casualties before your ranks start disappearing.

bomblu
09-01-2009, 17:50
State troop wise I think swordsmen are the best overall. Fluff wise empire armies should mostly be halberdier but these suck rules wise. I play a unit of swordsmen and a unit of spearmen (20 each) but I do this as these are the models I have.

Well...for 1 extra point for more initiative and more weapon skills I think Swordsmen are better, though i dont know if Spearmen or Hal's are better against cavalry (even though i'll most of the time be confronting my friend's Orcs, Empire or Lizzies)


Yeah, if you want a WP general, go for the arch lector since he's essentially the uber-WP. WAlter and equipment are up to you, however.

Hmm ok...takes up my lord choice :) I'll probably shift around from an Arch lector guy to a wizard lord according to the style of play then. Good thinking?


You might consider bumping their number up to 25 or more, though, so you can afford to lose some casualties before your ranks start disappearing.

Well they're not too expensive (point wise) so i'll try out a few games with different nos. of State Troops and see which number's work best :D


As to greatswords or flagellants, I would go for flagellants every time. Dont forget that if you take a warrior priest, one of your flagellant units can count as a core choice. I run three units of 21 flagellant at 2000 points. People are cautious of these units as with a bit of luck and a decent sacrifice you can chuck out 15 strength 5 attacks re rolling hits and wounds...

Does this actually work?...the core choice? :/


how big is this force? if it is 2000 points, your priest really should be the arch-lector on the war altar with Van Horsstman's Speculum. If not, a priest with the armor of meteoric iron or even a barded steed, heavy armor and shield , and a V-H-Speculum could do the job - getting into combat with horrible characters and giving them your stats.

What are the pro's and cons of a War Altar? I like the model and it would be fun to scratch build one but is it worth using up 100pts for it?

bomblu
09-01-2009, 20:14
No he can't.

Ok i checked the Army Book:

"ARMY ORGANISATION:
If the army includes one or more priests of sigmar(Warrior Prst. or Arch Lec.) you may include one (and only one) Flag. warband as a Core Units choice intead of Rare.

Ie....Brilliant :P

So, one unit of flagellants are in as core so i can take up to 2 Volleyguns...just brilliant :P

hwd
10-01-2009, 09:04
Yeah you can definately have a unit as core. I believe that DJ Soulstars "no he can't" refers to whether a preist can join flagellant units which he is correct on. As the priest is not unbeakabkle he cannot join the unbreakable flagellants.

Two volley guns is good. If you are doing this then I would have at least one engineer with one of the guns to allow you to re-roll the artillery dice AND use his higher ballistic skill.

bomblu
10-01-2009, 09:34
Two volley guns is good. If you are doing this then I would have at least one engineer with one of the guns to allow you to re-roll the artillery dice AND use his higher ballistic skill.

Now THIS is what i like about empire...you've got to think about this stuff when making an armylist...unless it was me who's lazy with my current high elves.

How many units of knights/mounted units should i have for charging ect? I was thinking on the lines of 2 units of 5 each for knights and maybe a unit of 5 pistoleers/outriders...

hwd
10-01-2009, 11:10
I use one unit of 7 knights but generally they dont do much bar hit flanks that my flaggies hit...

Pistoliers are good as they are fast cav and can be used to bait charges and flee. Two units of knights is good but should probably eithe charge a single unit together or be supported by a unit to add static combat resolution from ranks etc.

I would make the units 6 wide as this maximises the number of models that can attack at a ranked unit 5 wide (on 20mm bases) and more attacks means a greater chance of not getting hit back!

Anton
10-01-2009, 17:33
Note that the Master Engineer cannot reroll artillery dice for the Helblaster or Helstorm. This only works when he joins a Great Cannon or a Mortar. The only benefit of putting him with a Helblaster is that they get to use his BS 4. Not really worth it, considering the points cost and that he takes up a hero slot. In addition, the Helblaster is quite prone to misfiring, which puts the Engineer at risk.

If you intend to bring a Master Engineer, put him with a Great Cannon.

darkace77450
10-01-2009, 18:05
If you want a strong theme for your army, then war machines don't really fit with a religious army. That doesn't mean you cant take them anyway, but it does dilute the theme of your army.

alextroy
10-01-2009, 18:11
bomblu, you army concept sounds pretty close to what I use, a combined arms Empire Army. Here's my thoughts:

Archlector - a wonderful general. Prayers help backup your mages in your magic phase and gives you great magic defense. I mount him on a barded warhorse, but everyone says the War Altar is a steal at 100 points. I personally don't like the idea of my general running around on a chariot. I always give him VHS to prevent him from being schooled by nasty combat characters.

Wizard - I take two level 2s to give me a moderate magic phase, which can be downright useless if your opponent is magic heavy. However, AL + 2 Lvl 2 and a Rod of Power makes for some nice magic defense.

BSB Captain - Let's face it. Empire troops are not very deadly in combat. +1 CR and rerolls on break test are a must to hold the battleline until help can arrive. Plus, the Captain adds some killing power to a unit if he has a magic weapons.

State Troops - Swordsmen or Spearman for the blocks, and 25 strong is a must. Once state troops lose the +3 CR from ranks, they will start to loose combat and run for the hills.

Melee Detachments - Any State Troops you expect to see Close Combat needs a melee detachment (swordmen for durability or halbardiers for power, although I arm mine with shields in case I rather they just not die). Most troops are either better then you, or cheaper. If you don't have this edge, your in trouble.

Shooting Detachments - Good for putting small units of shooters around the battlefield. Archers are very usesful as missile shields and redirectors.

Greatswords - I love these guys. They hold very well with a BSB nearby and have way more staying power then Flaggellants.

Flaggellants - One of the hardest hitting units in the army, but these guys are a fragile as they come. T3 and no armor means if they are not charging, they are dieing. Also, WS2 means keep them away from large units of WS5 troops. I use them in a smallish units (12-18).

Artillery - I love Empire Artillery. I love them all. Cannons kill big things dead. Helblasters scare the hell out of heavy cavalry and blocks of light infantry alike. Mortars can kill masses of light troops, and the Helstrom kills even Heavy Infantry (although it is even less accurate then the Mortar). The only problem with Artillery is sometimes it wins the game, and sometimes it is a total waste of points.

bomblu
11-01-2009, 08:27
bomblu, you army concept sounds pretty close to what I use, a combined arms Empire Army. Here's my thoughts:

Archlector - a wonderful general. Prayers help backup your mages in your magic phase and gives you great magic defense. I mount him on a barded warhorse, but everyone says the War Altar is a steal at 100 points. I personally don't like the idea of my general running around on a chariot. I always give him VHS to prevent him from being schooled by nasty combat characters.

Wizard - I take two level 2s to give me a moderate magic phase, which can be downright useless if your opponent is magic heavy. However, AL + 2 Lvl 2 and a Rod of Power makes for some nice magic defense.

BSB Captain - Let's face it. Empire troops are not very deadly in combat. +1 CR and rerolls on break test are a must to hold the battleline until help can arrive. Plus, the Captain adds some killing power to a unit if he has a magic weapons.

State Troops - Swordsmen or Spearman for the blocks, and 25 strong is a must. Once state troops lose the +3 CR from ranks, they will start to loose combat and run for the hills.

Melee Detachments - Any State Troops you expect to see Close Combat needs a melee detachment (swordmen for durability or halbardiers for power, although I arm mine with shields in case I rather they just not die). Most troops are either better then you, or cheaper. If you don't have this edge, your in trouble.

Shooting Detachments - Good for putting small units of shooters around the battlefield. Archers are very usesful as missile shields and redirectors.

Greatswords - I love these guys. They hold very well with a BSB nearby and have way more staying power then Flaggellants.

Flaggellants - One of the hardest hitting units in the army, but these guys are a fragile as they come. T3 and no armor means if they are not charging, they are dieing. Also, WS2 means keep them away from large units of WS5 troops. I use them in a smallish units (12-18).

Artillery - I love Empire Artillery. I love them all. Cannons kill big things dead. Helblasters scare the hell out of heavy cavalry and blocks of light infantry alike. Mortars can kill masses of light troops, and the Helstrom kills even Heavy Infantry (although it is even less accurate then the Mortar). The only problem with Artillery is sometimes it wins the game, and sometimes it is a total waste of points.

Thanks for all the help Alextroy :D Do you use all these in a 2000pts game? (I play with high elves so i'm used to units with very high point cost) And another thing i noticed is that there arent any Cavalry units; do you manage to win games without horsies? :P

Frankly
11-01-2009, 10:27
It sounds to me thank you want to play an unbreakable line empire list, which works really well.

Max out your flagellants and add Greatswords+lector to control your L.d., back them up with swordmen + detachments(for good armour saves and static CR) and you have an armylist that can feint or take charges, has some good counter attack units and nice support.

Baaltharus
11-01-2009, 19:46
I wouldn't take greatswords. Everything else in the special section is better for the points. I like the background for greatswords and their models but there just not that great.

Guy Fawkes
11-01-2009, 21:59
I think Empire Tactica might be a better thread to discuss the finer points of Empire tactics, but before you purchase things I'll throw in a few of my thoughts.

I don't like shooting detachments. Archers are alright because they are good screens, but you typically don't want Handgunners or Crossbowmen deployed so close to your main battle line. The flexibility of deploying them on a hill or something is useful. Not panicking other units isn't so useful because generally these units aren't deployed very close to a whole bundle of other units, unless you are playing a gunline. Also, you eat up a detachment slot for one of your state troop blocks, which you will generally want to use for a screen or support unit.

Also, I believe Warrior Priests can join Flagellants if they pray themselves unbreakable, although I am completely sure if this has been FAQ'ed or not. In any case, Flagellants don't really benefit from a Warrior Priest as much as your main blocks, so I would advise against it. Warrior Priests are useful for their buffs. They can use prayers and grant hatred to units, while possibly giving you a kill a turn against weaker troops.

A cannon is basically necessary if you want any chance against monsters like Dragons and Hydras. Giants can be taken care of with Crossbows, but the game-winning monsters need to be taken care of quickly. Also, destroying monsters ridden by characters generally makes the character useless and vulnerable (eg. Lances not so useful when dismounted, flying characters on Dark Pegasi or Dragons aren't a pain once they are knocked off, can later be picked off with shooting). Cannons are also gaudy Bolt Throwers if you need to open up some Knights or something. The other warmachines are hit-or-miss, depending on what you are trying to do, but in today's metagame of dual-Hydra Dark Elves, dual-Dragon High Elves, dual-Steam Tank, and mounted Lords a second Cannon can be a very good investment. People lambaste the Mortar because it is weak, but it is very cheap and with a little support from a shooting unit, can panic off even a decent-sized block of light infantry every once in a while. It is nice for raining down on horde armies, like Goblins and Skaven, that have low leadership and are tightly packed. You miss infrequently because even far deviations land amongst the horde, and masses of T3, 5+ or worse armor save infantry are more efficiently taken care of with Mortars than Handgunners, which are more expensive and more useful for taking away rank bonuses than annihilating blocks. Hellblaster and Helstorms are erratic but have a lot of potential when they roll well.

Your state troop blocks are personal choice. Generally it's said that Swordsmen are the best, but I like the look of Spearmen. It's sad, but Halberdiers, with their poor chances at staying alive, are best left to detachments that can get a kill with their higher strength and negate ranks. Greatswords are between Flagellants and State Troops in that they are more powerful than State Troops and Flagellants but not as disciplined as Flagellants. However, Stubborn does take them pretty far and they are powerful enough to win against lighter infantry all of the time.

Knights are decent and cheap, but Inner Circle's +1 S helps a lot if you think you'll need some extra hitting power. Pistoliers are better harassing cavalry, but can still get some kills in with their extra attacks if push comes to shove. That said, it's best to shoot up support units and then retreat if charged. If you know you are going to win a combat, also charging with Pistoliers offers a good shot of running the enemy down and can get the Pistoliers behind the enemy's main line and out of line of sight, which protects them well.

The Steam Tank is powerful, and useful for its points denial abilites as much as its 15" charge and powerful grinding/cannon attacks.

As for a Wizard Lord, I would seriously advise against him unless you are trying to push magic. He lowers the Ld. of your General, which is vital in an Empire army, and won't function well without some hero-level Wizards and some magic items. In this case, you might lose your BSB too and this will change how your army functions drastically. If you take 4 Wizards for characters, it is probably best to try using a gunline and hoping for the best.

Good luck in any case.

bomblu
12-01-2009, 21:18
Hmm some good stuff here guys...thanks a lot for the feedback :D So i'll prob have about 2 units of Swordmen (milita ditatcments are good?) and a couple of gunlines (10 models x2 i think)...2 wizards...a canon/mortart (one of them x2 - i'm aiming to have minimum of 3 canons)

Though i still dont know if i should take a block of Greatswords and the War Altar. Then the knights/pistoleres (more likely)...

hwd
13-01-2009, 09:57
Warrior priests can't join flagellants.

Yes he can pray to make himself unbreakable suggesting he can join them. However unbreakable is lost as soon as he joins the unit and so he is no longer unbreakable and thus unable to join... it's confusing but it makes sense.

bomblu
14-01-2009, 12:43
How would an ArchLector benefit if he's on a War Altar?

Chiron
14-01-2009, 12:44
Simple answer, he wouldnt unless the War Altar was killed in combat

bomblu
17-01-2009, 21:35
No as in...what are the benefits of a war altar?

Anton
17-01-2009, 22:53
Warrior Priests can't join Flagellants under any circumstances.

A War Altar is a chariot with MR (2) and a Ward save of 4+, which is conferred to the Arch Lector. It also gives the Arch Lector the ability to cast a randomly determined spell from the Lore of Light as a bound spell. It's quite cost-effective. However, despite the Ward save and MR, it does leave your Arch Lector vulnerable.

alextroy
18-01-2009, 16:36
Thanks for all the help Alextroy :D Do you use all these in a 2000pts game? (I play with high elves so i'm used to units with very high point cost) And another thing i noticed is that there arent any Cavalry units; do you manage to win games without horsies? :P

Knights: I usually bring along a unit of 5-6 Knights. In 2000 points, they would be just have a musician. In bigger games, I upgrade to Inner Circle with full command. That being said, they rarely impress me. Empire Knights are hard to kill, but are not that killy compared to other Knights. Their primary use is to hold off the flank of my enemies army with their longer charge range.

Pistoliers: I also forgot to mention that I love Pistoliers. These guys are just plain awesome when they don't die immediately or forget to rally and run off the board. They pack a good shooting punch and are Fast Cav.