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Dooks Dizzo
10-01-2009, 00:52
I would like to start a discussion on ways to battle one of the hardest armies in the Warhammer world, namely Daemons of Chaos.

As a newer Warhammer Fantasy player I have tried to arm myself with all the knowledge I can when entering into battle in hopes that one day I will be ready for competitive play.

From what I have read and understood Daemons of Chaos are going to be one of my greatest challenges. I prefer to not think of any thing as 'cheesy' or broken, but simply look to make myself a better player. (Since I play Dark Elves, I really can't complain anyway ;) )

There are there units in particular that I understand give everyone the hardest time. Being a Druchii player I mainly look for the best ways for my particular army to take Daemon on, but I think we should compile all of our knowledge.

The three biggest threats as I understand it are:
Blood Thirsters
Flamers
Plaguebearers (with regenerate)

I think it would be great if some of our resident Daemons players could come in and let us know what they fear most on the battle field as well!

My idea for dealing with a Thirster is as follows:
Dark Elf Master
Reverse Ward Save
0+ armor save

Attached to a unit of Cold One Knights with a War Banner. Issue a Challenge.

I have no hope of defeating the BT on even footing so I am going for combat resolution here. Unless he is Strength 10 I should get either a 3+ or a 4+ armor save and an 'only fails on a 6' Ward save. Aside from unlucky dice I should be able to hold for a turn or two with +3 combat res (Banner, Warbanner and Out Number).

If I can hold him I can look to get a big block of spearmen into his flank for an additional +4 (Flank, +3 ranks).

The Blood Thirster 'only' has 5 wounds, so a high roll or two for Instability should see him off. If not, I will have had time to manuever away from the threat a bit.

Flamers are a whole different ball of wax. I have heard that shooting them is the best way to take them down but believe it or not, Druchii shooting just won't do the trick. It takes something like 60 shots from crossbowmen to kill one (assuming hitting on 6's, -1 skirmishers, -1 multilple shots, -1 long range).

Reaper Bolt Tossers are possible an option, hitting on 4's or 5's and wounding better but even as such, I would need 3 or 4 to reliable hurt the unit.

I don't have anything that can really survive a Stand and Shoot from them except MAYBE shades and even then, the ensuing combat would be rough for a unit smaller than 15 or so.

So any suggestions for Dark Elves dealing with Flamers would be a great help.

For Plaguebearers I think Hydra + Lore of Metal should see them off.

Anyone else?

Cartoon
10-01-2009, 01:55
You also might want to mention the Slaanesh leadership destroying combo. I've seen lots of people have problems with that, although I believe it requires the masque, so it may not be as common as some of the other things. Also, flesh hounds are a pain as well.

WhiteKnight
10-01-2009, 05:31
That banner with -3 ld is scary(i think its in daemons.) and easily anihalates my beastmen's poor ld and my friend who plays skaven. tactic against that, go for the banner first.

Dooks Dizzo
10-01-2009, 15:28
So that's it huh? We've all just given up and accepted that Daemons own us? :)

Flesh Hounds are one that I hadn't noticed before, any suggestions for killing/controlling them?

And by the by, which army is best suited for fighting Daemons?

Captin Korea!
10-01-2009, 15:32
VC kill my daemons (Slaanesh/Tzeentch) any day of the week, the CR/ that black coach causes my ranks to disappear relatively fast.

Da_Greeniest
10-01-2009, 15:38
Just a hunch, but it sounds like alot of Daemon units own a lot in close combat, much like a lot of armies.

A general tip I would think would be to shoot at them. Most of them are Toughness 3 or Toughness 4, which means a lot of shooting could mess them up if they don't make their Ward Save. (or regen with Plaguebearers)

Because of the toughness 3, alot of basic arrow fire could stand a chance at wounding them. As for anything tougher than that, I would take tons of war machines.

I have never fought Daemons before, but if I did, it would be one of those armies I would prefer to shoot at rather than go toe to toe with.

Dooks Dizzo
10-01-2009, 16:11
I think that other than maybe Wood Elves or Dwarves you're going to find it hard to shoot daemons down. Even though they 'only' have a 5+ ward it's enough to stop 1/3 of successful wounds. (And remember Armor piercing doesn't have any effect on them for example.)

Take my crossbowmen. 20 shots, generally hitting on 5's gives me say 6 hits on a good day. Even against T3 you're looking at 3 wounds and 1 save. Killing 2 daemons just isn't going to cut it.

Against Plaguebearers you don't even get that. 2 wounds and then they're probably both saved by ward / regen.

Regular Daemon units aren't that tough to beat in combat. You have to use a lot of static combat res or elite troops but I think beating them down is probably more effective.

W0lf
10-01-2009, 18:49
The three biggest threats as I understand it are:
Blood Thirsters
Flamers
Plaguebearers (with regenerate)

Thats about right but id put flesh hounds into that lsit for sure.

Daemons biggest weakness?

-> Over-confident generals. Its the biggest flaw imho, its hard to not be confident when fielding such an army, this can be used as a advantage by a canny opponent. Another linking factor is 'lax' gaming.


Best cure to a blood thirster is scare tatics. If your opponent is too scared to put his Bt in front of your shooting then you can get him to hide the thrister for a large chunk of the game, thus mitigating damage. Best counter to plague bearers is avoid them, fairly easy to do, the trouble arises when you play a list like WoC that needs to kill them in CC for the VPs, in this case ALWAYS try to make sure you have a good-ish chance to kill the herald before commiting.

Flesh hounds have plenty of counters, just dont waste your PD on them.

Flamers have no 'true' counters, just deal with them as best as possible, see 'daemons biggest weakness'.

Also for the benefit of this thread i think 'overall' counters will be better then niche counters. Things such as a specific character + unit build for 1 army is a little useless in non-tailored enviroment tht most play in; and thats assuming they even have that army.

superduperkoopatrooper
10-01-2009, 19:04
Someone I know uses a mounted DE BSB to charge out of units against flamers. He's well protected enough that they're unlikely to cause any wounds. The banner ensures that he won't autobreak if he does no wounds. Slowly he should grind them down provided nothing else gets involved.

Orge_ladd
10-01-2009, 19:20
so far my gobbo army ( yes gobbos) has had no problem with the daemon armys i faced. ok yes i do pack more warmachines then the dwarf player, and yes i do have over 200 models in games over 1500 points, with at least 9-12 fanatics.. but still, sheer numbers and massed combat res is the way to go. they can't beat a static 5 combat res, every turn, especially when you start flaking, surrounding, and sheer massed bombing.

i have another thing. skaven i belive have the absolute best tactic available to them to beat daemons. warplightning cannon + jezzails + warplightning + slaves + shoot into combat rule = dead slaves.. i mean dead daemons.. pfft so wat if you loose the slaves. you should have at least 30 in the unit and so not need to worry to much, then the shooting will rip apart daemons, as nothing can stand to so much firepower.

the point on that most daemon players are over confident is also true.. USE IT AGAISNT THEM.. deploy your army bst suited to how you want to set up, and then stop before you start and plan.. realise where your opponents close combat is gonna go, see which targets he is MOST likely going to flcikering fire ( come on we all know that the daemon player WILL take this spell its awesome) find out what he wants to shoot with flamers.. and deny him the oppotunity, play some bluff units, which you are happy to loose to make them be left out of place, skaven players should just do what you do best, sacrifice your slaves by charging a strong unit.. then shoot that unit to death.. and if you not kill it.. then hop ya slaves can hold em up for a bit..

empire i see as having som awesome magic and shooting options, abuse it people, abuse your magic, hit them with fire balls and cannon balls and hand guns, use cavalry AFTER your opponent charges yor infantry to SMASH them to pieces, keep ya wizards safe.

bretonians, should always pray if they can that ward save will help you to know end, archers are good.. LOTS OF ARCHERS ARE BETTER. knights are there to keep those archers sturdy, tool ya heros up (thats right heros, don't worry bout lords for now) for killing in combat. ur damsels should use lore of heavans and you should try for the lightning spells.

elves - i have no idea i afraid. i guess wood elves use dryads and treekin etc.. show the daemons how annoying those ward saves are, use your archers and target single units at a time, focus fire, if ya kill a unit of blood letters and 3 horrors for example, you done well as thats one less unit of combat you have to deal with. dark elves, magic is probably your best chance, hit them with yor chill winds and doom bolts and generally protect ya sorceress's. corsairs should probably not be used, as they are not that effective agaisnt them in combat i think. high elves, magic and shooting is good, swordmasters are awesome and your ASF thign is a winner.. but do not think you are indestructible, as far as i know ( which is not much on high elves) you have low armour and low strength. archers are useful.. so use em. bolt throwers... also useful.

vampire counts- yeah.. just keep raising those skeletons and zombies and stop them from charging units.. create "Bumpers" for your skeletons to hide behind, bloodknights... take em.. they are filty and nasty... but AWESOME!!!!!

tombkings - magic = important.. use it to shoot more, casket of souls is now disgusting.. so use it, bone giant is always useful, tomb scorpions are brilliant aswell. we all know this.

warriors of chaos and beasts of chaos sorry i not got any ideas i guess use magic and try to flank em.. thats all i can suggest..

well i think i babbled on long enough these are some of my ideas on how we can beat em. but i still don't see why they so bad.. i beat em loads of times

Storak
10-01-2009, 19:38
so far my gobbo army ( yes gobbos) has had no problem with the daemon armys i faced. ok yes i do pack more warmachines then the dwarf player, and yes i do have over 200 models in games over 1500 points, with at least 9-12 fanatics.. but still, sheer numbers and massed combat res is the way to go. they can't beat a static 5 combat res, every turn, especially when you start flaking, surrounding, and sheer massed bombing.

sorry, but i guess your opponent isn t playing a strong list against you.

gobbos wont charge daemons, simply because they cant pass fear tests (especially not against a Ld-2 banner and the masque)

the daemon player has the prefect tool to remove fanatics early (flyers, that cost less than our wolfs...) they will take out your artillery as well.

and anyway, the dual wounds of flesh hounds and the high saves of khorne heralds makes them eat fanatics for breakfast.

with magic and flamers he will "outshoot" you anyway, and the gobbo spell list is completely useless. (little effect, high casting cost)

acsmedic
10-01-2009, 20:54
Flamers have no 'true' counters

Not true. My Dragon Princes laugh at flamers and as long as you have a character (wearing dragon armour) in there or give the drakemaster the foeblade

Kill the heralds, that is the key to victory against daemons.

BT? my stardragon can usually manage the BT threat.

What I fear is the insane amount of magic that Daemons can generate. HE can handle if you take the shard and spam drain magic.

W0lf
10-01-2009, 20:59
Not true. My Dragon Princes laugh at flamers and as long as you have a character (wearing dragon armour) in there or give the drakemaster the foeblade

They can avoid those dragon prince so easily its not even funny.

acsmedic
10-01-2009, 22:52
They can avoid those dragon prince so easily its not even funny.

Which means I can control where they are and limit their effectiveness by how I deploy/move my DP's. Additionally I have no problem taking a second unit of DP's or just feed them to my dragon.

My point in all of this is that there is a counter to pretty much everything. Which is where the quality of each player, the terrain, and sometimes luck comes into play.

mossel
10-01-2009, 23:24
daemon's biggest weakness: their points cost! most 'good' models cost 30-35 pts each! take one down, whilst losing 10 goblins and you're still doing well! (or 3 blackguard... whatever)

most daemon players (including me and my list) have difficulties fielding large units (except from core, but most daemonplayers see them as compulsory anyway).

In my army, there is the kipper, flesh hounds, screamers and flamers to deal with, and none of these units can claim a great save, only a certain degree of mobility and endurance. hounds and flamers are 2 wounds per model, flamers and screamers skirmish...
the kipper hashigh tougness and some CC protection.

I don't field heralds in 2k, as they only give significant bonusses to core troops.


another big weakness is the fact that a single daemon unit is basicly rubbish (maybe except flamers, who really dish it out :p), unless properly supported.
combine charges and go for a decent static CR!

also, daemon units are highly specialised. see what a unit is for in the army, eliminate the units that counter what your army is good at and then killl what's left!
eg. in my army, my magic defence exists in the 2 basic DD, a DD from my kipper and 3 DD from the 3 units of horrors.
horrors easily die to some missile fire (T3, 5+ WS) and when there are 5 or less horrors left, the unit no longer counts as a wizard. without my DD, enemy magic absolutely kills me.
then again (I'm not a bad player, I know how to use my army to support itself), my flamers and flesh houds are capable of protecting my horrors agains most things that come after them.


my main advice: take out the biggest threats to your army's strong points (as is always the case :) )

Nationalmaverick
10-01-2009, 23:51
I disagree with the "good daemons" costing 35 points each.

Blood letters
12 points for killing blow, strength 5 and a 5+ ward save.

Daemonettes
Fast as cavalry, always strike first with a herald and 5+ward save

Plaguebearers
Regenerate, t4, 5+ward, poison

each damn infantry model reads like a hero character for every other army

Nationalmaverick
10-01-2009, 23:53
Next time I play v daemons Im taking the most disgusting, horrible gun line, Gelt empire, steam tank rocket army I can, nerf calls be damned, these Daemons need to die.

W0lf
10-01-2009, 23:56
wudnt take gelt.

they dont have armour saves or magic items. Lore of metal = fail.

Nationalmaverick
10-01-2009, 23:58
Good Point

He is usually so fear inspiring though! I cant help but love him

Perhaps a Wizard Lord with light OR Volkmar
Show those bitchs what a regening wardsaving light throwing character is all about.

Oh I just thought of something, Rerolls to hit and wound with lore of light spells...

Nicha11
11-01-2009, 02:01
For DE take a big unit of Execs rank them 7 wide and add a hag with the asf banner.

for added overkill add a COB and give them the extra attack, although the combo is expensive.
They can happily take anything the deamons have against them.
Blood Thirster? Give them killing blow. Flamers 5+ward save.

mossel
11-01-2009, 07:28
regenerating plaguebearers or ASF daemonettes require a herald, so that will relatively raise the cost for each model...
and more even, those heralds are quite expensive 'unit upgrades', for if you want your 3 core units at maximum efficiency, you'll pay at least 270 points for 3 naked heralds of the cheapest kind. 345 for the expensiver kinds.
and then taking some gifts, BSB upgrade... can raise that pretty fast.

I'd rather have an extra unit for that price, giving me some kind of edge over an ASF unit.

agreed, M6 is very nice, but my opponent will only charge me in his third turn (not taking siren song into account). and as daemonettes units rarely number more than 18 models, I'm pretty sure I can kill more than a few in 2-3 turns time.


daemons are a great army and a challenging adversary, but they are far from invincible.

when playing them, it's always handy to have some flaming magic missiles, decent shooting phase, good saves, high strenght multiwounding weapons...but then again, isn't that always the case?

just make sure you keep your flanks protected, keep target priority in mind and STICK TO THE PLAN (keep objectives in mind!)

W0lf
11-01-2009, 11:14
those heralds are quite expensive 'unit upgrades'

i can 100% honestly say i dont own a fantasy army that wouldnt use a Herlad of nurgle if i could.

115 pts for his stat line with regen and 5+ ward is ridiculous.

And im saying this assuming i dont get regen for the unit hes in (as they wudnt be plagues).

Its utter sillyness. Compare dwarf thanes, elf nobles, exalted champions, empire captains etc etc to him.

Lijacote
11-01-2009, 13:14
For DE take a big unit of Execs rank them 7 wide and add a hag with the asf banner.

for added overkill add a COB and give them the extra attack, although the combo is expensive.
They can happily take anything the deamons have against them.
Blood Thirster? Give them killing blow. Flamers 5+ward save.

Do Executioners have a Killing Blow that destroys larger-than-man-sized?

Arguleon-veq
11-01-2009, 13:27
Much liking when fighting Vampires where killing the Thralls is key, killing the Heralds is key for fighting against Daemons.

I have only played against Daemons a few times but I do play Daemons myself. My Warriors of Chaos massacred a Horror/Plaguebearer Kairos list at 2000 points because I assassinated his Heralds to make his infantry a much easier target. Dark Elves gave me a good fight last time out with my Daemons because he killed off my Heralds, which ultimatly seen all my Infantry killed.

Shooting is a good way to deal with Daemons though, somebody pointed out earlier that you will 'only' kill 2 Daemons a turn at long range with a unit of Repeaters. I think that is a good return, that is 1-2 turns shooting at long range, 1 at short and 1 stand and shoot. That would kill about 9 Daemons, easily making the points back for those Repeaters. You could always then get the jump on them with your faster units once you have weakened them. You would only kill 3 Empire Swordsmen at long range and get yourself 18 points worth of dead models, but against deamons, you get yourself 24 points worth from a turn shooting at range. Daemons are low on numbers and unlike Undead, cant bring those numbers back.

Dooks Dizzo
11-01-2009, 15:49
Hmmm, that's a pretty cool observation Arguleon. I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess I need to re-evaluate the effectiveness of my crossbowmen :)

Storak
11-01-2009, 16:52
Much liking when fighting Vampires where killing the Thralls is key, killing the Heralds is key for fighting against Daemons.

a nice tip. but pretty useless.

killing nurgle heralds is close to impossible for some armies. the khorne ones tend to come with a 0+ save and KB. you are lucky when he doesn t kill your assassin.
i have no experience with slaanesh heralds, but ASF makes them not a perfect target for assassination either.

this leaves Tzeentch, and i agree, those heralds should be eliminated as fast as possible. just hope they aren t flying around...


Shooting is a good way to deal with Daemons though, somebody pointed out earlier that you will 'only' kill 2 Daemons a turn at long range with a unit of Repeaters. I think that is a good return, that is 1-2 turns shooting at long range, 1 at short and 1 stand and shoot. That would kill about 9 Daemons, easily making the points back for those Repeaters. You could always then get the jump on them with your faster units once you have weakened them. You would only kill 3 Empire Swordsmen at long range and get yourself 18 points worth of dead models, but against deamons, you get yourself 24 points worth from a turn shooting at range. Daemons are low on numbers and unlike Undead, cant bring those numbers back.

your assessment of the shooting is slightly optimistic.
against nurgle, you will do much LESS damage, because of regeneration. Tzeentch will stand back and OUTSHOOT you, most likely.

that leaves khorne and slaanesh, which are pretty fast. 4 turns of shooting is very optimistic against them.
their units are very useful in small numbers anyway. they are best used 6 wide, so the second rank is a reserve option.

his fast units love small shooting units, as they form a perfect point to break through your line.

a major problem is, that chaos daemons so far nearly NEVER use their flying skirmishers to screen their units. this should make you think about their army..

against empire (or my puny orcs) shooting causes PANIC tests. it also removes the RANKS, and NUMBERS, that they rely on, in combat.

-------------------

shooting daemons is a good idea. but don t expect miracles from it.

Frankly
11-01-2009, 18:32
Actually I've found shooting not a bad way to deal with DoC to be honest. Using Empire, skinks and now DE. Focused fire shooting deals well with a lot of elements in the army that if left untouched can cause huge headaches during the game.

Other than that I usually go for magic control over DoC to do well against them.

isidril93
11-01-2009, 18:50
druchii vs flamers
shades are the answer. shoot at the flamers from up close. sure the next turn the shades will die but you could take 2 units of 6 for the price of 1 unit of 6 flamers. those should see out most of the flamers.

Arguleon-veq
11-01-2009, 18:50
Killing Nurgle Heralds is indeed hard but you may as well always put as many attacks as possible on him because he isn't that much harder to hurt than a norml Plaguebearer.

Every army can take Ogres, a pair of Maneaters will strip a wound off him a turn and should get the charge. They also shouldn't take too much damage in return and once the Herald is dead, they will start to crush the unit of Bearers.

I have killed a nurgle Herald in 1 turn with my Chaos Sorcerer Lord with the Runesword and Frenzy. Sure he should have only dealt 1 wound but its not that outlandish to get 2. Making the unit easy pickings. I have had a Hydra kill my Herald in a single turn as well, again it should have only done 1 but getting 2 happens.

Khorne Heralds are not really game breaking and so assassinating them isn't really a must do thing. Tzeentch Heralds should be killed off quickly and it is usually quite easy to do when they are bolstering Horror units.

Most competative builds will have 2 Tzeentch Heralds and a Nurgle one.

With regards to the shooting, of course Nurgle is harder to shoot down but they are never going to be the target of your fire power. You deal with them with spells and flaming magic missiles. Horror units are a nice target though, sure a seriously magic loaded army will outshoot you, thats why you have to go and hunt those Tzeentch Heralds. I see plenty of 10 man Horror units, a couple of turns shooting can see them below the wizard level and so they stop generating power and dispel.

4 turns of shooting would be almost impossible against Daemonettes and Letters, thats why I said 3 then a stand and shoot. They usually come in units of 10-12. The 9 kills that I predicted would be enough to see your missile unit hold out once they get into combat with you.


Of course nothing I have suggested will mean anybody will go out and instantly win a game with it, Daemons are a very hard army to beat but they are good places to start and something that you should try to do.

Storak
12-01-2009, 19:08
i don t think we disagree too much. your tips are fine, but they wont do a lot and some of them are a little bit optimistic.


Killing Nurgle Heralds is indeed hard but you may as well always put as many attacks as possible on him because he isn't that much harder to hurt than a norml Plaguebearer.

i agree.


Every army can take Ogres, a pair of Maneaters will strip a wound off him a turn and should get the charge. They also shouldn't take too much damage in return and once the Herald is dead, they will start to crush the unit of Bearers.

this is not a option, for multiple reasons. for a start, it should be possible to do it with troops from my own army book.
but apart from that, the maneaters will draw all the fire in my O&G list that is forced to contain no targets.
in combat, they will receive more damage than they cause from the daemons, will lose the combat BIG and test against stubborn Ld6. (Ld-2 banner)


I have killed a nurgle Herald in 1 turn with my Chaos Sorcerer Lord with the Runesword and Frenzy. Sure he should have only dealt 1 wound but its not that outlandish to get 2. Making the unit easy pickings. I have had a Hydra kill my Herald in a single turn as well, again it should have only done 1 but getting 2 happens.

yes it happens. most often, it does not.



4 turns of shooting would be almost impossible against Daemonettes and Letters, thats why I said 3 then a stand and shoot. They usually come in units of 10-12. The 9 kills that I predicted would be enough to see your missile unit hold out once they get into combat with you.

again, i think this is optimistic. the Daemonettes move 12 inch. 3 moves and stand and shoot allows them to move 43 inch!
two turns of shooting or one turn and stand and shoot will be pretty common!

PS: DE perhaps offer the best anti-daemon shooting. (anything piercing armor is mostly an expensive waste). it is not surprising, that DE had great success against daemon armies in recent tournaments...

Arguleon-veq
13-01-2009, 13:12
Other armies do have things that can do the job of Maneaters though [well, a few]. Just put them as I have been using them a lot lately in my DoW.

They are also pretty easy to screen.

If they have the -2 Ld banner in there as well then yeah, the Ogres Stubborn becomes a bit of a waste. They would be better killing whoever has that, if it is the Nurgle Herald itself then at least if they do off him in 1 turn, you get a whole load of points for him, which if he is on a Palanquin, isn't that hard to do. You should do it if you have great weapons in a single turn.

12 Attacks, 6 Hits, 5 Wounds, 2.5 After Regen, 1.7 After Ward.

Of course there arent many counters to a Herald Nurgle but at least there is one that any army can take, plus its a useful unit to have for other jobs if the enemy is prepared for it and stops you getting at his Herald. I think most Daemon players though would underestimate the Maneaters and count on the Herald surviving. After all, 12 S7 WS4 Attacks from 3 models is a bit of a suprise. As Khorne Minos, Khorne Ogres etc all would only cause 1 wound and be easily broke.

Sure its a long shot but its worth a go.

Could always throw a pair of Hydras at him if you wanted :p

Old Gobbo
13-01-2009, 14:40
For pesky Nurgle Regeneration there's always FIRE. Bright Spells, Dwarf Flame Cannon, various flaming Magic Weapons, Skaven Warpfire thingey's etc..

Yes fighting Daemons is a challenge, but then it's soooooooo much more satisying when you manage to get a win:p

EvC
13-01-2009, 15:54
Most anti-Daemon tactics sadly do not stand up to the real challenge: will they work against a half-decent player with half-decent dice? Sadly with Daemons, if they have good dice, winning is almost impossible.

Killing the Heralds should be a fantastic idea. Last time I faced Daemons, I did just this. Black Knights into Nurgle to kill their Sundering BSB, Black Coach into Slaanesh to kill the general. I thought I would be on easy street then, but a few passed instability checks meant that my army was them swamped with Flesh Hounds, which it couldn't stand up to.

I have won against Daemons, but generally victory (or draws) come from the necessity of my opponent to make downright stupid mistakes. Like a Tzeentch player who used his re-roll then cast 5 dice at a big spell- miscast, free spell for me. (And then he repeated it the next turn too!). A Nurgle player who was so cautious he didn't make charges that could have won him the game. A Khorne player who charged his weakened Bloodthirster into my Tyrant and fluffed it, getting stuffed in return. Course there are lots of things you can do to help guide the situation in your favour. Lots of cheap low strength shooting works wonders, as has been noted.

neXus6
13-01-2009, 15:59
I do like threads that make no distinction between real Daemon lists and the typical cheesed out WAAC list that has given them such a bad name.

Against a Daemon army which is built purely for the fun of the game any of these tactics are pretty good. They only fall down against the WAAC armies.

It is kinda like labling EVERY Dark Elf list cheesy just because the dual Hydra etc... list is WAAC. It is a tad unfair.

Against a WAAC Daemon army (special characters, massed flamers, etc) I totally agree give what you get, super power you list to the nines and take it too them. Just don't judge every Daemon army simply because they are Daemons as seems to often be the case. :)

ishoog
15-01-2009, 18:39
I totally agree that there's a difference between lists that are designed to be balanced and lists designed to win at all costs. Unfortunately the win at all costs daemon lists seem to be fairly common (at least at my local GW) that with other armies.

On that note, does anyone have suggestions for dealing with daemon armies with dwarfs? I'm playing in a 1500 point tourney in a couple of weeks and would love to hear how others have faired.

mossel
15-01-2009, 21:31
a unit of slayers will do great for tying the daemon combat units/tarpits up. then outflank with your blocks :)

as a rare choice, go for the organ gun. it's always a great piece of artillery, and if a daemonplayer hides his flamers in a forest, there are no penalties to hit anywayz!

go for a 'typical' build, dwarfs should stick to tradition, as it is good :)
have a thane of pain, a BSB, a runesmith, 2 blocks, some shooters, 2-3 war machines and a flavourish addition.

I'd go for:
-thane of pain
-bsb
-runesmith (2 runes of spellbreaking and a rune of stone)

20-25 warriors with shields
20-25 longbeards with shields and the immune to fear and terror banner
10 quarellers

15 slayers
cannon
2 bolt throwers

organ gun

ishoog
16-01-2009, 13:36
Thanks for the advice.

Arguleon-veq
16-01-2009, 16:06
I think Dwarfs are pretty good against Daemons really.

Shooting, which is something you do want against them. Probably Crossbows over Handguns though as AP doesnt matter, the extra range will keep t hem at bay longer.

Flaming War Machines, especially Bolt Throwers with Engineers. Great for offing those Plaguebearers, Unclean Onces, or other Great Daemons.

Banners that can double your Unit Strength or make you immune to Fear to offset autobreaking. Good solid LD, Warriors cheaper than Daemons and can fight most to a standstill thanks to T4 and a 3+ Save.

Scott
17-01-2009, 09:00
Use the dwarf static combat res 9 unit (put it on a smaller juicier target) then let the daemon player go to town, if you win by a huge combat res he's so going to pop even with the BSB nearbye he should'nt last 2 turns for 1 unit. Just my 2 cents. (from a daemon player)