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DeathlessDraich
10-01-2009, 14:14
A summary - mainly to help me remember but I thought I would share my labours here. :)
Laid out under the following Headings

Watch out for
Odd Stuff
Poorly phrased
Contradictory
New rules
Clarified

There will be typos (and mistakes I dare say) as usual as I didn't proof read.
Feel free to comment and add.

Watch out for:

1) Spearmen, Pikemen, Slann, etc allocating attacks on specific enemy models in close combat.

2) Magic lances are destroyed if the mount is slain. EDIT Only lances qualify as "Mounted only" but spears, great weapons on mounts are not affected as they are "Mounts" and not "Mounts only"

3) A Chariot inflict only D6 hits in total if it impacts several units EDIT except when pursuing (and possibly fleeing? -unknown) - Atrahasis.

4) Skirmisher charges – It is still possible to create a Failed charge trap using Skirmishers and terrain by ensuring that all visible skirmishers are unreachable.

5) Salamanders have Flaming attacks and
EDIT - against a 5 wide 200mm infantry unit, 5 skinks will be in the front rank since models *must* be maximised and 2 Salamanders in corner contact - Atrahasis.

6) Shaggoth champions, Treeman Ancient can join units. – see Contradictions.
EDIT - Treeman Ancient cannot join units as specified in the Forest Spirit rules

7) Guardian light – Units in combat do not take Fear, Terror and Panic tests but if affected by this spell will not auto-break from an outnumbering Fear causer? How (or where) rallying from breaking works is still unclear.

8) Beast Cowers on a single mounted model in a unit on foot stops the whole unit.

9) Dwarf Anvil – Magic items will work against this e.g. those that grant saves against missiles e.g. WE Glamourweave.
EDIT - Howler Wind protects against Wrath and Ruin

10) Spell targets – it is possible to have no targets and MR can only be used by specifically targeted units.


Odd Stuff:

1) Cavalry turn enables a base to move *over* a base – 2nd instance of 3 dimensional movement in Fantasy.
2) Change formation – Confirms that models *can* move more than their M rate – 3 other cases of this.
3) A character in a unit cannot see the RnF models next to him.


Poorly phrased:

1) Compulsory movement charges – ‘Side’ = Front, Flank or Rear Zone and Arc of Sight needed in the explanation.

2) Skirmishers – see below

3) Hydras are slowed as normal when charging?
EDIT - solution offered by silashand
The Hydra declares charges and move chargers as a single Monster. It therefore suffers terrain penalties for difficult terrain.

Contradictory:

1) Pump Wagons/Monsters subject to Compulsory moves cannot pivot at the end of their move. Chariots can pivot as many times during movement – pg62 . Same with Monsters – pg 59.

2) Reforming Skirmishers – 2 poor phrases in the FAQ: i) The phrase “not really” is too vague. ii) The phrase “No need to do anything” is nebulous. Rallying units *must* reform – pg 10. How this is to be reconciled with the new FAQ is unknown.

3) Monstrous characters e.g. Greater Daemons etc are characters and not Monsters?! – contradicts the Daemons rules. Although “shares some rules” clarifies to an extent that Greater Daemons cannot join units but Shaggoth champions, Treeman Ancient can!

4) Stand and shoot against a character charging out of a unit. A mistake?

5) Re-roll psychology test – Banners which allow a re-roll could affect units close to the bearer but does not affect the bearer’s unit e.g. O&G Rowdy Grot Banner ??

New rules:

1) Models that do not have LOS no longer auto miss but cannot shoot – affects Leadbelchers etc

2) Pistols pg 56 is *not* “Counts as a hand weapon” should be amended to “Counts as a *2nd hand weapon”

3) Weapons which are ‘Mounted only’ are destroyed when the mount is destroyed including magic weapons.

4) Chariots and Monsters which are destroyed by S&S (or terrain) causes a failed charge.

5) Pg 67 has been changed from “brought into base contact with the nearest visible skirmisher” to “brought into base contact with the nearest visible *and reachable* skirmisher”

Clarified
Non uniform base sizes in a unit, Killing Blow, Characters left in destroyed unit, Character slain in a unit with a monstrous mount. Movement of flying characters in a unit, A character in a unit declaring a Charge against a Terror or Fear causer, Impact hits on a lone character in a challenge, Breath weapon, Miscast table 5-6 and 8-9 , Steal Soul, Missiles Defined

Shamfrit
10-01-2009, 14:19
Why is the Hydra being slowed during a charge poorly phrased?

(Otherwise, spot on! But oh god...Treeman Ancient in units...)

Reinnon
10-01-2009, 15:00
the wood elf book actually states that they can't..

Kalandros
10-01-2009, 15:21
2) Magic lances, spears, great weapons destroyed when the mount is destroyed – Bret and TK players most affected

Huh no, only "Mounted Only Weapons" (Lance) are affected. You do not lose your Great Weapon unless for some reason it says "Mounted Only", same with Spears since Spears CAN be used on foot (unless it specifies 'Mounted Only').



3) Hydras are slowed as normal when charging?


They lose status of Skirmisher on the charge because the Hydra is the one Charging alone, once the charge is resolved, you place the Beastmasters. But any other movement is still treated as Skirmisher.



1) Pump Wagons/Monsters subject to Compulsory moves cannot pivot at the end of their move. Chariots can pivot as many times during movement – pg62 . Same with Monsters – pg 59.
Pump Wagon rules are very specific, you choose 1 Direction and you move that way for that movement phase, there's no pivoting allowed.

Contradictory or not, the FAQ is clear, they do not pivot after their compulsory movement is done.


2) Reforming Skirmishers – 2 poor phrases in the FAQ: i) The phrase “not really” is too vague. ii) The phrase “No need to do anything” is nebulous. Rallying units *must* reform – pg 10. How this is to be reconciled with the new FAQ is unknown.
They only implied that they do not reform as a unit, because they already are in their usual formation, they still perform a 'Reform' but you don't actually move any model.



4) Stand and shoot against a character charging out of a unit. A mistake?

Its always been this way, if you charge something that can shoot 24" then you are still within the unit before you Move the charge. If the unit has a low range then you have to move the charger before the stand & shoot occurs.


5) Re-roll psychology test – Banners which allow a re-roll could affect units close to the bearer but does not affect the bearer’s unit e.g. O&G Rowdy Grot Banner ??
..... Why are you making stuff up? The banner has its rules that it affects units around, its not the Character giving the reroll panic, its the banner - 2 different things. When a character has an ability for HIMSELF to reroll psychology test, then that does not pass on to his unit.


2) Pistols pg 56 is *not* “Counts as a hand weapon” should be amended to “Counts as a *2nd hand weapon”
Huh? Its a Hand Weapon. Its not a '2nd hand weapon' its just a hand weapon that you combine with your normal hand weapon and therefore have two. There is no 'Additional hand weapon' in the Weapons section, its not a weapon type, it only means you have Two Hand Weapons.

DeathlessDraich
10-01-2009, 15:25
the wood elf book actually states that they can't..

Yes, thank you for that - amended!

EDIT - Kalandros - your observations are specious or misses the point I made

Ganymede
10-01-2009, 15:32
Sweet. For those of us who don't have a PDF viewer and are willing to deal with a substantially innacurate list of the changes, this is a great resource.

EvC
10-01-2009, 15:54
5) Salamanders have Flaming attacks and *can* rank up with only Salamanders in btb.

How do you figure the second half of this statement..?

DeathlessDraich
10-01-2009, 16:31
When charged, they dont have to mix skinks and Salamanders unless the enemy unit is very wide. 120mm (3 Salamander widths) should cover the normal 5X20mm.

DeathlessDraich
10-01-2009, 16:36
Why is the Hydra being slowed during a charge poorly phrased?


There are uncertainties
What is meant by 'slowed down' and why is it slowed down?
Does that statement mean the Hydra stops being a skirmisher when charging!?

Shamfrit
10-01-2009, 16:50
I'd disagre with that, I thought the FAQ was relatively clear cut, the Hydra moves like a Skirmisher normally, but, when it charges, terrain intervenes in it's movement.

I'd assume it being conjolled through the trees would allow it a careful plan, but rampaging off would be hittign and ploughing through all sorts of crap. But I digress.

Atrahasis
10-01-2009, 17:39
When charged, they dont have to mix skinks and Salamanders unless the enemy unit is very wide. 120mm (3 Salamander widths) should cover the normal 5X20mm.

That would put 9 models in combat.

Bringing skinks in puts 12 models in combat.

Chargers are required to maximise fighters from both sides.

The FAQ does not change that.

DeathlessDraich
10-01-2009, 17:46
the Hydra moves like a Skirmisher normally, but, when it charges, terrain intervenes in it's movement.

I'd assume it being conjolled through the trees would allow it a careful plan, but rampaging off would be hittign and ploughing through all sorts of crap. But I digress.

A skirmisher suffers no penalties for its movement when moving through difficult terrain e.g. woods - pg 63.

Therefore adding the phrase "but when it is charging are slowed as normal" is redundant and is bound to be a source of contention.

The phrase might have been for Very difficult terrain but linking it to the same sentence as "Hydras are skirmishers" will cause confusion.
That is why I've noted it down as poorly phrased.

Ganymede
10-01-2009, 17:47
The lizaardmen book will change it though, so we have that to look forward to.

Atrahasis
10-01-2009, 17:50
2) Magic lances, spears, great weapons destroyed when the mount is destroyed – Bret and TK players most affectedHow are you expanding an answer about "Mounted Only" weapons to spears and great weapons?


3) A Chariot inflict only D6 hits in total if it impacts several units.Unless it pursues/overruns into those units...


5) Salamanders have Flaming attacks and *can* rank up with only Salamanders in btb. [quote]They can never rank up with just salamanders in combat (unless all the handlers are dead).

[quote]3) A character in a unit cannot see the RnF models next to him.Unless the unit is skirmishing.

5) Re-roll psychology test – Banners which allow a re-roll could affect units close to the bearer but does not affect the bearer’s unit e.g. O&G Rowdy Grot Banner ??The unit is within the area of affect - it isn't gaining the immunity by virtue of the character having the immunity.


2) Pistols pg 56 is *not* “Counts as a hand weapon” should be amended to “Counts as a *2nd hand weapon” There is no difference.

DeathlessDraich
10-01-2009, 17:58
That would put 9 models in combat.

Bringing skinks in puts 12 models in combat.

Chargers are required to maximise fighters from both sides.

The FAQ does not change that.

Point taken - very valid.
It worsens it for the LM player now but I'll edit my original post anyway as this is required by the rules.

A Salamander unit, of 3 Sallies plus skinks, is charged by a 20mm base infantry. The nearest visible, reachable model will be a Sally, most LM players will arrange their Sally unit that way, I'm sure.

The LM player has to maximise models and could cover the enemy unit's base width plus corner to corner with 3 Sallies. (120mm covers 100mm)

But
Since this violates the maximise models,

As many skinks as possible have to rank up first!!
i.e. In the case above of a 100mm wide enemy unit the front rank of the Sally unit should be all skinks - 7 skinks!

Atrahasis
10-01-2009, 18:09
As many skinks as possible have to rank up first!!
i.e. In the case above of a 100mm wide enemy unit the front rank of the Sally unit should be all skinks - 7 skinks!5 skinks and 2 salamanders :)

DeathlessDraich
10-01-2009, 18:38
How are you expanding an answer about "Mounted Only" weapons to spears and great weapons?

I havent't expanded it - This is what I said:
N.B.
"Magic lances, spears, great weapons destroyed when the mount is destroyed"
- the wielder of the GW, spear etc is mounted.

But I have misread Pg 56 which shows 'Mounted only'. is used for lances but "Mounted" for Spears and G Weapons - one impt word away!

Amended my original post.


Unless it pursues/overruns into those units...

YES, Added to my original post Thanks you for this. The FAQ writers obviously forgot that section when they wrote the FAQ.



The unit is within the area of affect - it isn't gaining the immunity by virtue of the character having the immunity.

The FAQ - "If a character ...because of a magic object... enables it to re-roll Psychology test ... lose the benefits of this rule if he stays with the unit

I have a suspicion that the writers were considering Chaos marks and forgot BSBs with magic banners

Rowdy Grots Banner - "All ...units within 12" may re-roll failed Panic tests"

The unit the bearer is in, is within 12" surely or is the FAQ denying this.

If so it has worse ramifications:

There are a great many Banners which use similar words - Banner of Nagarythe, Standard of Chaos glory - Nothing to do with ItP for them but the phrase "all friendly units within 12 or 6" etc" now has a different flavour of meaning.



There is no difference.
Yes, I know you've always held this view but I intend to use that phrase so that it is absolutely clear at least in my mind.

Mr_Rose
10-01-2009, 19:48
5) Salamanders have Flaming attacks and *can* rank up with only Salamanders in btb. They can never rank up with just salamanders in combat (unless all the handlers are dead).Actually, it is entirely possible for the skirmishers to rank up with only the salamanders in combat. However, to do it, the unit would have to be charging at the extreme edge of its range and in a direction that placed the salamenders in front, such that the skinks ran out of movement before reaching the front rank but the salamanders didn't.
The Skirmisher rules are very clear on this.

silashand
10-01-2009, 19:58
A skirmisher suffers no penalties for its movement when moving through difficult terrain e.g. woods - pg 63.

Therefore adding the phrase "but when it is charging are slowed as normal" is redundant and is bound to be a source of contention.

Incorrect. The Monsters and Handlers rules on page 67 of the BRB specifically state that such units "normally move as skirmishers." It does not say they actually *are* skirmishers. When charging or being charged, the handlers are completely ignored and for all purposes regarding movement it is treated as a lone monster. The BRB really is quite clear in this and the FAQ just reiterates what it says.

Cheers, Gary

Kalandros
10-01-2009, 21:07
Also I have no problem with a Treeman ancient joining Wood Elf units..

But what unit? They're never protected by the unit they join for shooting and magic.
They cannot join any Skirmisher unit and they would slow down anything fast.

Necromancy Black
10-01-2009, 21:24
Point taken - very valid.
It worsens it for the LM player now but I'll edit my original post anyway as this is required by the rules.

A Salamander unit, of 3 Sallies plus skinks, is charged by a 20mm base infantry. The nearest visible, reachable model will be a Sally, most LM players will arrange their Sally unit that way, I'm sure.

The LM player has to maximise models and could cover the enemy unit's base width plus corner to corner with 3 Sallies. (120mm covers 100mm)

But
Since this violates the maximise models,

As many skinks as possible have to rank up first!!
i.e. In the case above of a 100mm wide enemy unit the front rank of the Sally unit should be all skinks - 7 skinks!

Actually if an enemy charges the Salamanders and a Sally is the closest model they have to touch that one first. Then you rank up what's left. The rules for skirmishers only says "models" so by putting my sallies on the very corners I'm not decreasing the number of models in base to base contact. It's a ledgit and very common Lizardmen tatic for when you know your Salamanders might be charged.

Asmodiseus
10-01-2009, 23:59
I think he is refering to if your salamanders charge a unit at nearly max range and only the salamanders have the movement necessary to get into combat you would be forced to put the skinks in the rear regardless if model coverage was maximized or not

Necromancy Black
11-01-2009, 06:30
Ah yes, if charging then you must maxinmise all models that are in charge range. But the current salamaders are too damn good at shooting to do this and the new ones have a rule that forces the salamaders to line up first. :D

DeathlessDraich
11-01-2009, 09:07
Please note -
Several amendments have been made already - Magic lances, Treeman, Salamanders, Chariots and Hydra (see below).

In addition, I've just realised that Howler Wind offers protection against the Dwarf Anvil!


Incorrect. The Monsters and Handlers rules on page 67 of the BRB specifically state that such units "normally move as skirmishers." It does not say they actually *are* skirmishers. When charging or being charged, the handlers are completely ignored and for all purposes regarding movement it is treated as a lone monster. The BRB really is quite clear in this and the FAQ just reiterates what it says.

Cheers, Gary

I haven't said this or that is right or wrong but merely that the FAQ is ambiguous.

1) Move as skirmishers:
Isn't a charge also a move? If by 'move', the FAQ means all movement except charging, then what does "charging slowed as normal" mean - normal as in other skirmishers or normal as in Monster and handlers.
Monster and handlers rules have always been rejected as it makes little sense.


2) However the latter part of your post is a good basis for a solution:

"Charging" in the FAQ refers to move chargers only i.e.
The Hydra declares charges as skirmishers but move chargers as a single Monster. It therefore suffers terrain penalties for difficult terrain.

Atrahasis
11-01-2009, 09:57
The hydra declares charges like a lone monster - this much is absolutely clear.

It also charges like a lone monster.

Note that while "Monster and Handlers" appears in the skirmisher section nothing in the M&H rules says that M&H are skirmishers. They merely move like skirmishers when not charging or being charged.

yoshimo
11-01-2009, 11:11
Glad they finally clarified the odd base sized units/characters thing as it really brought out the "Imagination" of some of the Warseer community

DeathlessDraich
11-01-2009, 12:06
The hydra declares charges like a lone monster - this much is absolutely clear.

It also charges like a lone monster.
.

Oops, yes. I should have written the Hydra declares charges and move charges like a lone Monster.