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woody
11-01-2009, 12:23
In my 2250 pts wood elf list, i have 2 mounted great eagles, a single non mounted and 3 units of 3 warhawk riders, was just wondering if anyone could help me with some tactics for them as i have no clue how to use them properly?
Cheers
Woody

Frankly
11-01-2009, 13:01
Well ... that's of extremely quick fast elements in your list, what else is in your army?

woody
11-01-2009, 13:16
here is my list:

Highborn, Great eagle, spear of twilight, helm of the hunt, talisman of protection, hail of doom arrow
Noble, great eagle, bow of loren, enchanted shield, spear, light armour

Spellsinger, level 2, dispell scroll, calaingors stave
Spellsinger, level 2, dispell scroll, divination orb

10 glade guard
10 glade guard
10 glade guard
10 glade guard
13 eternal guard, full command

10 wardancers, bladesinger, musician

3 warhawk riders
3 warhawk riders
3 warhawk riders

great eagle
6 waywatchers, shadow sentinel

Frankly
11-01-2009, 14:03
How are you finding playing against heavily armoured opponents like cavalry and especially monsters?

In some ways I really like the list expect of eternal guard, who I think due to they points cost and lack of mobility paint a big bulls eye on their head and say charge me.

Anyway, I'm surprised your not running glade riders and then working W.Dancers and W.Hawks off your G.Rider's flanking attacks to get both CR wounds and negate your opponents static CR.

Baiscally people that are playing a lot of W.Hawks at tournaments tend to play them for points denial and concentrated fire. But if your playing a much faster list than your opponents you should be looking at bait and flee tactics and targeting combats where you can concentrate all the mobility on to a certain unit/s of your opponents battle line. you should be targeting his support units i.e, WMs, shooty support, light cavalry to give you more control over the board. After you control the board you can start putting threats form the flanks and rears onto his heavier units.

W.Hawks are still pretty good at putting pressure on to mages and pushing them out of units and into ranged attack positions.

Still good at march blocking, alittle costly a unit to march block, but the option is always there.

Ever thought of running 2 x 4 W.hawks and 2 x 6 W.dancers since they support each other really well?

woody
11-01-2009, 14:41
well iv not actually bought the army yet, so i don't know how it's going to play, just wanted to get a grip of the tactics people use for the hawks as i chose them mainly for aesthetic and 'cool' factor reasons. Im open to suggestions, what's a better unit to use than the eternal guard? was thinking of getting rid of them, but not sure yet. Might take the advice of supporting larger units of hawks with smaller units of wardancers, but may make it 3 units of 4 hawks and 2 units of 6 wardancers. If you could possibly right out the eternal guard, keeping the 3 units of hawks, maybe making them larger and 2 units of wardancers?
Cheers
Woody

Condottiere
11-01-2009, 17:20
I was going to suggest placing them down a coal mine.

However, they're the fast manoeuver element of your army and need to part of a combined arms team. In other words, figure out how you want to play, and then see if your list has the elements to support that play style.

Preacher
11-01-2009, 18:07
This type of list can be very difficult to play. As an above poster mentioned its very much about concentrated fire and points denial. The style of list borders on a "Sethayla" Kindred style(check pg 28 of your Army Book).

I have run a similar list, but with more Hawks and Waywatchers and Glade Riders. Its kind of fun to play, not fun at all for your opponent since you probably wont be charging anything till turn 5 0r 6. Unless you are going to run your warhawks into a unit to try to kill the mage.

As far as tactics go, you just bounce around the table avoiding combat pouring as many arrows into one target, move and do the same until the unit has been whittled down enough that you can tackle it. You move crazy fast and have no banners to give up. Your units are very small and very hard to pin down. Its all about denial. It can be fun to play but alot of lists now will give you serious headaches and take the fun out of it.
High Elf lists with Dragons, most Daemon builds and Vampires as well.

I ran my list with 3 units 5 Glade RIders for core, 4 units of 5 warhawks for special(all of those units have no command, save for a musician in the Glade Riders) and Way Watchers for Rare choice. Its a crazy fast moving army that can confuse your oppenent becuase you have no battle line for him to charge. I don't know how competitive it would be at a serious tournament though, I never took it to any.

Its a very expensive army to build and if your unsure of it. I would proxy it first to make sure you like the way it plays.

Hope that helps a little.

Frankly
11-01-2009, 18:25
I think preacher's reply has summed it up the most. Although the list can be a bit more fun than 5-6 turn charges, especially if you make to CC centers with kindred hero's etc, etc.

woody
12-01-2009, 15:49
Right, iv taken some advice and spurned others, list updated is:

Highborn, great eagle, spear of twilight, helom of the hunt, glamourweave, enchanted shield, light armour 288pts
Noble, great eagle, hail of doom arrow, talisman of protection, spear, light armour, shield 176 pts
Spell singer, level 2, dispell scroll, calaingors stave 175 pts
spell singer, level 2, dispell scroll, divination orb 175 pts

10 glade guard, musician x3 126pts each - 378 pts
10 glade guard 120 pts

5 glade riders (need something other than just the 5, more with musician but don't know what to get rid of from the army)

6 wardancers, musician, bladesinger x2 129 pts each - 258 pts
4 warhawk riders x2 160pts each - 320 pts

6 waywatchers x2 120pts each - 240pts

2250 total

Need some help with what to get rid of, how many the glade riders should be and what to add to them (if any)
Cheers
Woody

Frankly
12-01-2009, 16:01
I'm just wondering if you know how hard it is the run a fast fragile list. :)

I like your list by the way, I know alot of other people will have doubts about its fragile nature, but playing top gear full speed lists are fun.

I'd personally drop the 3 units of glade guard for 2 units a glade riders at use them to flank threaten and/or mobile concentrated fire that doesn't have to sit there and be targets themselves.

2 x guard and 2 x waywatchers is heaps of support shooting imho.

woody
12-01-2009, 16:09
nope, no clue, but will learn before i get the army up and running (hopefully)

Preacher
12-01-2009, 16:16
@Woody...PROXY THIS LIST FIRST!!!!!!!!!

Its a really hard list to get used to. And as Frankly has said it is very very fragile.

If you want a little C&C on your current list...I can offer some.

First, lose all the musicians from the Glade Guard...they don't need any command. Its just a waste of points. If they see combat, they wont be tying thus wont need the horn to break a tie. Just about any unit that charges them will have a musician of there own anyways so it would wash with you just giving up some more victory points.

Personally I think 40 GG is a little too many. I would drop atleast one unit for another unit of Glade Riders with a musician. This unit needs one for the +1 to rally since they should be fleeing alot. Bait and flee is your friend with these guys.

Also I wouldnt run any command on the Wardancers. Just straight up. A musician if you wanted but personally I dont run them with command, unless I am running a heavy troop combat list. I would use the dropped points to up the units to 7 each. So they can all attack on the turn they charge, you'll have 7 wardancers against his front 5.

As far as suggesting what else to fill the list with, you have maxed out specials and rares, so the only other unit you would add would be Glade riders.

your waywatcher are ok, if you wanted points drop one out of each unit. Or just take one unit of ten and throw a Great Eagle down on the table. 10 Waywatchers is alot to deal with for your enemy and the Eagle fits the theme and is one of the best units Wood Elves and High Elves have to field.

woody
12-01-2009, 17:00
Highborn, great eagle, spear of twilight, helom of the hunt, glamourweave, enchanted shield, light armour 288pts
Noble, great eagle, hail of doom arrow, talisman of protection, spear, light armour, shield 176 pts
Spell singer, level 2, dispell scroll, calaingors stave 175 pts
spell singer, level 2, dispell scroll, divination orb 175 pts

10 glade guard x3 120pts each - 360 pts
5 glade riders, musician x2 129 pts each - 258

7 wardancers x2 126 pts each - 252 pts
4 warhawk riders x2 160pts each - 320 pts

10 waywatchers 240pts

the army as it stands now, it looks like it's starting to shape up into a useful army. Any more C+C is welcome and needed.
Cheers
Woody

woody
12-01-2009, 17:02
I like your list by the way, I know alot of other people will have doubts about its fragile nature, but playing top gear full speed lists are fun.



skipped this part of your post for some reason, thanks mate, iv never written a WE lst before this week and pretty much just put all the cool units into 1 list.
Cheers
Woody

P.S. sorry for the double post...

Frankly
12-01-2009, 17:45
@Woody...PROXY THIS LIST FIRST!!!!!!!!!



Again, great advice. I proxied a WE list supplier to your and had about 10 - 12 games before going Dark elves all light cavalry + flyers instead, Dark elves hit that little bit better, but WE are a little more shooty and sneaky.

I like that third armylist, I'd love to see you drop a GG for more G.Riders, the reason being is the G.Rider units create second turn threats to your opponents battle line which adds to the pressure you can put onto his list OR they can hide and go for denial and come out of concentrate assaults late game, either way their mobility combos better than G.G. units do

woody
12-01-2009, 21:23
cheers mate, im much profering the set up of this list and starting to get a head for the tactics used, built yup a unit of glade guard today, they look pretty cool. Looking forwards to getting the army up.
Cheers
Woody

P.S. if you have anymore C+C to give, please do.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
12-01-2009, 23:26
I play high elves but I am sure that your birds are the effective in the same way except better (warhawk riders). I use my birds as bait, to hunt warmachines, the hunt spell casters (especially hierophants), march block, protect flanks if the need comes, and on occasion to simply tie up an enemy missile unit. I have never taken any character mounted on a bird so I cant say anything there. I think your list is very hit or miss. Anyone that can wither the shots or get off a couple magic missiles will make short work of the list. I would suggest some cavalry and dryads and all tree types. Good luck I love wood elves!

mossel
13-01-2009, 07:15
Dryads can also do what wardancers do, most of the time. So they might be a great unit to field to protect your glade guard, or to go against enemy missile units. skirmishing, T4 and a 5+WS is quite a solid protection. you could change the noble on his eagle to an alter kindred noble. he's also very fast and will be able to do the same job, but can use forests for protection and the -1 to hit for being a single character.

Preacher
13-01-2009, 13:29
I agree with Frankly, droping another unit of Glade Guard for Glade Riders would be very helpful to you.

The problem with all those archers is finding targets for all of them. Chances are you will be lining them up. Findind the space to line up 30 of them on the table so they all have lanes of fire and viable targets can be difficult, with terrain and your other units.

The second unit of Glade Riders will give you another harrasment unit that can bait and flee and pull the enemy around, not mention they are STR 4 on the charge and can move and shoot with no penatly and can move through woods with no penalty.

In all the wood elf lists I played I always found 20 GG to be the right balance I was looking for.

If you build this list and like the way it plays. I would say you should try to go full out Sethayla style after this one. Just bulk out your Warhawks and drop the wardancers and only take Glade Riders for Core and if you really want to have some fun with it, put your lord on a Dragon.

Good Luck with it.

Preacher.

Frankly
13-01-2009, 21:25
..... Just bulk out your Warhawks and drop the wardancers and only take Glade Riders for Core and if you really want to have some fun with it, put your lord on a Dragon.

.

That's the next step for mobile WE list isn't if. I've seen it work a tournments, the dragon adds the punch that the list lacks. I was thinking of this when I was proxying the list. But my environment is very shooty at the moment.

Preacher
14-01-2009, 00:19
You got it Frankly. The dragon gives you some serious punch. To be honest, if you can proxy it with a dragon. Even though you have lots of shooting in your enviroment, think about it. Every model in your army can shoot something. Nothing in this list does not hvae a bow. And no one shoots better then the asrai. All of his "missile" troops will be charged turn 2. Your War hawks can cover 40" in two turns, your Glade riders can cover 36(and move through terrain with no penalty), your waywatchers can deploy so far up his rear he will smell the Killing Blow before you toss the first dice.

The only shooting that can seriously mess this up, is Dwarves for sure. Cause their warmachine crews are crazy tough. And High Elf lists with 4 bolt throwers. There are some crazy Dark Elf shooty lists too. But stop and think about it. Think of how much firepower you could bear down in one turn. 40-50 arrows without breaking a sweat, plus toss in the hail of doom for fun.

Fight fire with fire...no one out shoots a Wood Elf....NO ONE!!!!!!!!!

Preacher.

woody
14-01-2009, 16:50
Awesome, cheers for all the help, how much do dragons cost in the wood elf book? just so that i can count up what i need to get rid of to do that, and ill proxy it next time my brother is down.
Cheers
Woody

woody
15-01-2009, 18:07
tweaked the list a bit, got rid of a unit of glade guard for another unit of 5 riders here's how it stands now:
Highborn, great eagle, spear of twilight, helom of the hunt, glamourweave, enchanted shield, light armour 288pts
Noble, great eagle, hail of doom arrow, talisman of protection, spear, light armour, shield 176 pts
Spell singer, level 2, dispell scroll, calaingors stave 175 pts
spell singer, level 2, dispell scroll, divination orb 175 pts

10 glade guard x2 120pts each - 240 pts
5 glade riders, musician x3 129 pts each - 387 pts

7 wardancers x2 126 pts each - 252 pts
4 warhawk riders x2 160pts each - 320 pts

10 waywatchers 240pts

2246 pts total.


don't really want to have a dragon as ill be writing up some background soon, and the idea is that all the heroes/lord are from the same family, where the 2 oldest are the wiser and more educated, have become spell signers and the younger 2 (on great eagles) are more arrogant and act out more and feel the need for speed.

Cheers
Woody

Frankly
15-01-2009, 21:15
Nice list. let us know how it gets along.

woody
16-01-2009, 19:52
i will as soon as it gets up and running in about 6 months after my local club's tale of (many) painters.
But will soon have a 1000pt list, not sure on what it'll contain but should be fun.
Cheers
Woody