PDA

View Full Version : Daemons VS Warroriors of Chaos



Dragon girl
11-01-2009, 15:50
Hey all...

I need some help...

Iīm playing Daemons against Warriors...

And we are playing whit the following rules:

We choose 2 chaos Gods each...
fore exsampel if I choose Tzeench and Slaanesh and he then has khorn and Nurgle...
we havenīt choosen the gods yet..
We are playing 2500 points.
and special characters...

He said that i couldenīt make the combo like Tzeench and Nurgle, Khorn and Slaanesh because they hate each other.

So what Gods should I choose???
And can I make a functional army whit only 2 gods???
And What units should I choose???

Arguleon-veq
11-01-2009, 18:55
Tzeentch and Khorne.

Big Horror Blocks with Heralds in, with small 10-12 man units of Letters for flanking. Flamers and Flesh Hounds. Probably a Thirster as your Lord.

19 Horrors;
Herald; Votex
19 Horrors;
Herald; Master of Sorcery
19 Horrors;
Herald; Vortex
12 Letters;
12 Letters;
5 Flesh Hounds;
5 Flesh Hounds;
5 Flamers;
Bloodthirster;

Makarion
11-01-2009, 19:26
Alternatively, Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Lots of magic / ranged attacks, and fast Slaaneshi units to bring the Ld penalties to the enemy lines. The Slaaneshi greater daemon isn't a bad general at all for a magic-heavy list, although you'll probably do fine with just heralds and the Changeling.

Tastyfish
11-01-2009, 19:31
Caveat number 1: I play Warriors of Chaos, Beasts and Dark elves against Wood elves, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts, Greenskins and Dwarfs so I might not have a clue what I'm talking about when it comes to daemons. I do have the book and a friend who is planning on collecting them (Tzeentch with some Slaanesh I think)

I'd definitely pick Tzeentch as one of them, whilst my experience with daemons is quite limited - flamers are considered a fantastic unit, and any flying unit like Screamers is horrific against an enemy with no shooting. To top it all off Tzeentch is a very good mark for warriors as it is one of the only ways they can get a ward save better than 6+ (as MoT improves saves on the Collar of Khorne and the Amulet of Protection by 1. Also makes warshrines very tough).

A lot will depend on how you prefer playing though - picking Tzeentch for the mobility and a magic/character advantage removes your option to take a nigh on invunerable unit of Plaguebearers as a core.

But all that aside, the first question obviously has to be what models do you have or is this for an army you are planning to get? Tzeentch has no plastics and is quite expensive.

Slaanesh I think overlaps a little too much with Tzeentch as far as an army goes (more speed) and Khorne will let you take advantage in the weakening of his heros. Bloodthirster with Obsidian armour is going to cause no end of grief for an army with no real shooting and poor ward saves, and compounded by the fact you dominate the magic phase. Bloodletters are going to do alright as well given he can't shoot them down so their main weakness of T3 is less of an issue. A Herald granting hatred will also counteract the Mark of Nurgle on his warriors knocking your WS down by 1 by letting you reroll hits.

So I would go with a Bloodthirster leading the army, a core of Bloodletters supported by flamers (2 units - to shoot any small flanking units and to knock off the odd man and remove ranks) with two units of flesh hounds providing some extra punch where it is needed, moving around the side to get flank charges if possible. Screamers are ranging far ahead to take out any hell cannons and hound/light cav units. Khorne heralds should be on Juggers and in the Bloodletter units if you're going to take them - I'd be tempted with one as the BSB with Etherblade (Khorne heralds are probably the hardest to kill, and when you've taken out the enemy's ability for good ward saves by taking Tzeentch a sword that ignores armour seems the obvious choice) and have a couple of Tzeentchian ones - flying chariots are too good to ignore, and the Tzeentch lore is pretty short ranged. Probably go with two in chariots rather than having them in the Horror units since we're not expecting our horrors to fight anyway.

Biggest thing to watch out for will be the fact his army will likely be immune to fear/terror/panic on his smaller units and maruaders whilst the warrior units might actually have an edge over you in combat with the mark of nurgle whilst also being hard to shoot. There will also be a Slaaneshi giant, with the ASF rule. No idea who you would kill that, just going to have to think about or hope he takes some spawn alongside his warshrine.

Don't forget he has to accept challenges but that his characters will probably fight first, if he plans on using a Slaaneshi lord for the speed whilst his nurgle henchmen beside him knock down your weaponskill.

So yeah - basic list would be something like this - no idea if its any good or not, repost it in the army list forum if you like the look of it. Bear in mind this is an army by a general who has never played daemons but who has played warhammer for a very long time.

Bloodthirster (Obsidian armour, spellbreaker and axe of khorne) 550pts
Khorne Herald BSB on Jugger (Etherblade) - 225pts
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot (power vortex) - 205
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot (spell breaker) - 200

20 Bloodletters (Full command, in 6x4 with BSB) - 270
14 Bloodletters (Champion + musician) - 186 (7x2, enough kills to )
14 Bloodletters (Champion + musician) - 186

10 Horrors -120
10 Horrors -120

4 Screamers - 120
5 Flesh hounds - 175
4 Flamers - 140

Total - 2497
'2 Dispel scrolls'
6 dispell dice
9 power dice


As you can see, Daemons are so expensive it is quite easy to run out of points without quite getting everything you wanted (as I originally planned on having 2 units each of Flamers and Hounds) even with only two gods. Could probably get rid of the giant by passing over him with the screamers a couple of times before finishing him off with magic - depends if you need them to be taking out fast units or not.

Hope this helps, I'd definitely reccomend using proxies to start off with - this isn't a that cheap a list to just go out and get, and the warriors of chaos list is pretty flexible. Not sure how this army would hold up against a monstrous host (who work well with Slaanesh and Nurgle), think it should be able to hold its own against infantry, balanced and predominantly cav armies.

[edit] Hehe, looks like Tzeentch is a must

Goruax
11-01-2009, 19:51
IMO, drop the Horrors, or amalgamate them into one large unit, since they are more likely to do some good in one large, decent spell casting unit, than two weak, poor spellcasting units.

Also, I'd recommend maybe reducing how much stuff, or changing some, your Bloodthirster has;
eg; does he really need Killing Blow? It's nice, but there's the Immortal Fury power which would serve you much better - hit with 6/7 with no KB (so more wounds), or hit with 4 or 5/7 but with KB?

Or drop Spellbreaker and take both. Sure you lose a Dispel Scroll, but you have 6DD, your Thrister has MR2 (a main target for magic), MR1 for your Herald (plus unit he is with), MR1 for both other Letter units, and your Horrors only lose 1 DD, but gain a Power Dice for their better spells (Gift is goood)

Your anti-magic is solid already.

Also, for your Tzeentch mages in chariots, could 1 not be substitued out for a winged horror (the Power Vortex)?
This gives him the same maneouvrability, makes him slightly cheaper and means he's harder to target (smaller base, -1 for single-US1 model)
You lose hitting power - but he's a Tzeentch Wizard, who's only power is through the chariot itself, which is minimal (D6 S4 is not gonna kill many/any Warriors of Chaos)
And with 4 T4 Wounds and only a 6+ Armour, it's not gonna survive many inevitable return hits.

Winged Horror also let's you hide in units, boost your Horrors to 4+ Ward (nice if he has some Hellcannons, etc) and just generally make a nuisance of yourself.
You can still marchblock (I think, anyway) so that plus the harder targeting is a decent plus.

Anyway, rambled enough, hope that's helpful.

Tastyfish
11-01-2009, 20:21
I was wondering about the horrors having seen Argulon's sample list, wasn't sure which way to go when I was looking at the army. Ended up going for what I did because I wasn't sure that one D6 SD6 on all units within 12" was better than 2 D6+1 SD6+1, especially as I'd be dropping a dispel dice as well with no increase in power. Finally I saw these units as hanging back behind the Blood letter units to join in should the need arise.

Agree with you regarding the Bloodthirster, I think I'd probably swap spellbreaker for the reroll given Chaos' tendancy for overally tooled up lords with a fondness for challenges. It's practically a killing blow every turn.

The chariots against I saw as being units for march blocking and assisting other units in charges (they are US5 with the herald so enough to break ranks) or killing hounds and fast cav. Against armies with shooting a flying herald makes sense but its not a real liability against WoC, who can't shoot them and will struggle to catch them. They would be nowhere near chaos warriors except if a large unit was engaged with the blood letters and needed a rear charge.

The horrors can assist in a prolonged combat but are unlikely to be able to pull off a combo charge, and having played with less expensive armies having only one unit of cavalry seems horrible when you're so outnumbered (and not fast cav at that). The flying chariots fill this role, as well as bringing the quite short ranged Tzeentchian magic into play

W0lf
11-01-2009, 22:22
3 x HoN
3x plague bearer units

max out on flesh hounds

possbile blood thirser at 2500.

You win. No question about it.

Flesh hounds will tear his support units apart and marauders. Whilst being almost immune to ranged attack.

Plague bearers will deny kills that chaos need to generate Cr to win by a decent margin.

Blood thirster + good general = almost free win.


If you are the mortals player... well good luck losing.

Dragon girl
12-01-2009, 14:32
Thanks all..

But...

We hav come to an agreement on what Gods we will have...
I get Tzeench and Slaanesh and my opponent getīs Khorn and Nurgle...

and we are playing with special charakteres...

Itīs gonna be tough for me... but I think it can work...
Just have to work out what units will work....

EvC
12-01-2009, 14:47
Tzeentch and Khorne Daemons vs Nurgle and Slaanesh Warriors will make for a fantastic game.

Neknoh
12-01-2009, 14:54
Khairos is a must against Warriors, especially Nurgle and Khorne. I would say to go for a Tzeentch herald with the Master of Sorcery as well.

For your main spells, pick the lores of Metal, they are devastating against Warriors of Khorne and Nurgle, a set of marks which greatly favours Warriors and Knights over Marauders.

One large unit of flamers and a unit of Seekers will make good rare choices, for special, I would go for screamers over seekers because seekers will be too badly hurt when the WoC army gets into combat with them. Screamers are at least manouverable enough to fly over and marchblock the units at least. You could go for two units of Flamers for your rare-choices though, although the seekers will be needed for combined charges together with a Tzeentch herald (lore of metal) in a chariot.

Havock
12-01-2009, 15:08
There is not much a 'must' when it comes to daemons vs warriors. Daemons have a tendency of doing most things better than warriors, as well as having a more well-rounded list (better mobility, for example)

Neknoh
12-01-2009, 15:11
aye, indeed, the problem is when you get stuck with the low-t, low-s ones against Warriors of chaos, controlled by a player fully aware of this, he will bring warriors and knights. As such, Lore of Metal is almost a guaranteed must I fear

Buddha777
12-01-2009, 15:43
Daemons should almost always do well against any WoC army that has footsloggers. Your troops are faster and hit harder, which is saying something. Conversely daemons can have incredible shooting which can shred knights and warriors alike.

The build that could cause some problems, however, is all mounted WoC. Everything from sorcs on disks to maurader horsmen and knights, to dragon ogres can even outpace daemons already fast forces. This kinda force hits hard as well.

Against Karios (AKA birdman in drag), a potentially devastating combo for WoC is the black tounge/infernal puppet which allows a failed spell automatically into a miscast which can then be modified by the puppet, potentially nuking the karios. Its rare to kill a LoC this way but it is still something to watch out for.

Havock
12-01-2009, 22:36
Yup, and even if it does not 'nuke' him, it can still end your magic phase right there and then. Something you don't want to see, seeing as a couple of units of knihgts will mulch most things you have in combat (kairos = no bloodthirster to inflict on them)

W0lf
12-01-2009, 23:12
Id gamble that if hes got Khorne (no magic) and Nurgle (expensive marks) that hes likely to not bother with magic and go for a scroll caddy or such. Thus id go for;

Kairos
herald of Tz with master + scroll for safety

Then id just add that its a very good idea to take screamers.

If you fear magic (and thus puppet/tongue) then add the blue scribes for fun.

Dragon girl
13-01-2009, 18:42
I fear the combo of the puppet and tongue.. but not enougth that i wonīt consider Kairos...
I know my opponent enougth that Iīm sure he will have that combo up heīs sleeve... :S