PDA

View Full Version : 7e Lizzies: Poisoned Bolt Thrower



Dokushin
12-01-2009, 16:29
So in the new 7th edition Lizardmen book, Stegadons come equipped with poisoned bolt throwers (great bows). There's apparently no mention of how to treat the poison autowound or how it interacts with rank penetration, so I thought I might reserve a little spot to discuss it.

The way I see it, there are three possibilities:
1) The bolt thrower autowounds through 5 models. This is ridiculous, but also the most strictly correct interpretation of RAW.
2) The bolt thrower autowounds the first model and rolls to wound for the rest. This is probably the most playable but has no rules explicitly supporting it.
3) The bolt thrower autowounds the first model, and you make a to hit roll for the remaining models. On a 6 it autowounds, on anything else it wounds as normal. This makes the most 'sense' to me, but has no precedent and no real justification other than it 'feels right'.

What does everyone think?

Cry of the Wind
12-01-2009, 16:37
My group will be playing 1 until FAQ says otherwise. Personally I like 3 but like you say it is not supported anywhere in the rules. They probably won't FAQ it like that simply because of the extra work involved in it (there is no point in having a more complicated rule if a simpler one gets the job done well).

The problem with 2 is that it will ignore the poison on the weapon after the first model. This doesn't sit well with me at all since the bolt is still poisoned when it hits the second rank.

decker_cky
12-01-2009, 16:48
The bolt thrower rules speak of different hits each time it passes to a different rank, so beyond the first model, a 6 to hit was not rolled. Much like a tomb scorpion loses a chance at KB when it scores a poison hit, the rank penetration rules of the bolt thrower take away further chances at poison. Separate hits don't carry on a previous poison result, so #2 is the correct interpretation.

Guanyin
12-01-2009, 16:53
Considering it accually IS a bolt thrower, and rules regarding those excist, I'd say number 3 is out the window. You do not roll to hit again. I'm also going with option 2, same reason as previous poster. There is no roll to hit, hence poison cannot be applied. Kinda like when you hit automatically (like ghouls on steamtanks for example).

Atrahasis
12-01-2009, 16:56
Option 1 - the rules for poison state that if a model with Poison rolls a 6 when rolling to hit the target, the attack automatically wounds the target.

The target of a Bolt Thrower is the unit, so the bolt wounds the unit automatically.

decker_cky
12-01-2009, 17:14
Option 1 - the rules for poison state that if a model with Poison rolls a 6 when rolling to hit the target, the attack automatically wounds the target.

The target of a Bolt Thrower is the unit, so the bolt wounds the unit automatically.

Any shooting attack targets a unit. Are you trying to say that with a blowpipe, if one shot rolls a 6 then all shots wound automatically?

There's no wording in the book to suggest that it would carry on. There IS wording explicitly describing it as separate hits every time it passes through a rank. Separate hit means poison doesn't auto carry on, so #1 is right out. No roll to hit on the subsequent hits means there's no chance to roll for poison again, so #3 is out. #2 is the one that's the cleanest rules, and it follows all the rules. #2 is the way it is played.

Atrahasis
12-01-2009, 17:22
Any shooting attack targets a unit. Are you trying to say that with a blowpipe, if one shot rolls a 6 then all shots wound automatically?I'm saying that that shot automatically wounds.

Your analogy is a simplistic straw man.

decker_cky
12-01-2009, 17:27
Still...it's on the hit. The rest of the sentence describes that. The next hit has no roll, so has no poison. And the bolt thrower rules DO describe different hits.

Oh, and find the verbiage talking about a given 'shot'. The only thing talked about is a hit. Hit hit hit. It's a different hit. The target of the hit that you roll a 6 to wound on is that model.

Desert Rain
12-01-2009, 17:28
If you play strict RAW as we mostly do alternative one is the right one. But it feels rather stupid to auto kill a unit on a 6.

RAIwise you should probably go with alternative number 2.

If I'm to play with a stegadon I would probably talk about it before the game so it doesn't come as a shock mid-game for the other player.

Atrahasis
12-01-2009, 17:30
Still...it's on the hit. The rest of the sentence describes that.
No, the rest of the sentence does no such thing.

It says that the attack wounds automatically if a 6 is rolled to hit.

A warrior does not inflict poisoned hits, he has poisoned attacks.

Lordmonkey
12-01-2009, 17:45
Bloody hell... we should stop GW before they release the book! :p

no.1 sounds like the best strict RAW interpretation, but no.2 s the one that I think was intended.

Griefbringer
12-01-2009, 18:26
How about waiting until the actual rulebook is released before starting excessively fierce debate on it? That way we will find out:

a.) If the poisoned bolt thrower actually makes it to the book
b.) If the designer has bothered to give it some extra rules

Then again, I recall that in the previous lizardman book there was also need for some sort of errata to clarify how the thingy worked, so I would not be surprised if that would happen again.

Slightly OT, but I would think that adding poison to the tip of a massive spear to be a bit extraneous, unless you are going hunting for big beasts. And how that poison makes it more potent in penetrating through multiple ranks of enemy is even stranger, unless the skinks strap a bucket of very corrosive poison to the spear-tip.

Atrahasis
12-01-2009, 18:33
Since the book has been printed, and several people have seen it and confirmed that the poisoned bolt thrower exists and has no extra rule to cover the poison and rank penetration, your helpful bullet points are misplaced.

theunwantedbeing
12-01-2009, 18:39
Bolt thrower rules, page 90.
If the first model hit is slain, then the bolt hits the trooper directly behind in the next rank.

So...it hits the guy in the second rank.
And then you resolve the damage.

You cant poison if you've not rolled a 6 to hit, you didnt roll a 6 to hit that guy in the second rank, so it can't be a poison.

RAW says option 2 is infact correct.
And the most likely to have been intended as well.

Jerrus
12-01-2009, 18:45
I agree that nr. 2 is how it should be played.

Atrahasis
12-01-2009, 18:47
You cant poison if you've not rolled a 6 to hit, you didnt roll a 6 to hit that guy in the second rank, so it can't be a poison.The guy in the second rank wouldn't have been hit if you hadn't rolled a 6 to hit (in this instance).

decker_cky
12-01-2009, 18:59
So? It doesn't really matter since it's a completely separate hit. theunwantedbeing said it perfectly. You didn't roll a 6 to hit the second model, so you don't automatically wound him.

Necromancy Black
12-01-2009, 22:55
1. You roll to hit the first unit, if it's a 6 poison kicks in and wounds automatically.

2. The bolt thrower rules mention that the next model is automatically hit. As this is a new hit, a new poison will need to be rolled, but as their is no dice rolled you can not obtain poison.

Option 2 is the most correct by RAW, not option 1.

GodlessM
12-01-2009, 22:56
The next model being automatically hit means poison has no effect, not that you roll another die.

Lord Khabal
12-01-2009, 23:00
agreed! My chaos knights can now rest...

marv335
12-01-2009, 23:16
I'm going with no 2 here.

Mireadur
12-01-2009, 23:38
The guy in the second rank wouldn't have been hit if you hadn't rolled a 6 to hit (in this instance).

For some reason, i knew you'd take this approach ;) unless you just love to make things more complicated than they are, after all you'd have no job if things were easy and everything was joy and agreement!

Was just a pun, dont take it hard.

For the sake of sanity and to avoid my brain explodes with some rock and rolla 6's carnage fest, im gonna bet the right choice is number 2... Or maybe 3.

Necromancy Black
12-01-2009, 23:48
The guy in the second rank wouldn't have been hit if you hadn't rolled a 6 to hit (in this instance).

And? He would've been hit had I rolled 5 as well.

The rules for bolt throwers still say each rank is hit one after the other, these are extra hits and as your not rolling to hit you can't get poison again.

Cry of the Wind
12-01-2009, 23:50
Hmm I've read over the rules for poison and bolt throwers several more times and each time I do I am less convinced that all being wound automatically is right while at the same time being no more convinced answer 2 is 100% correct either. In the spirit of friendly game play and since I now am in doubt of answer 1 I will encourage my group to play as option 2 until FAQ'd.

High Loremaster
13-01-2009, 00:27
I'm going with option 2. Like stated before, second rank models that are hit with the bolt thrower count it as a separate hit, and since there is no "to hit" roll, poison does not apply.

Plus, applying rule 1 would just be ridiculous.

Mireadur
13-01-2009, 09:29
venomous BT is still amazingly effective when you are shooting at a monster, since you will be by-passing a normally difficult ''to wound'' roll in the event you impact with a 6, that is.

kroq'gar
13-01-2009, 09:36
i'd elect option four- wait for the book and then decide. Who knows, it may allow armour saves & be option 1 of five wounds.

Bearing in mind with its reduced range, constant moving and limited sight, it nomally takes a 6 or 5 to hit, plus it cant march and shoot so your large, narrow vissioned beast will at best get one flankshot, which to me is a much better prospect than it charging said flank and THEN rolling a 6.

Nicha11
13-01-2009, 09:59
What is the actual writing of the rule in the book?..... Oh wait.

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 10:07
If it's a poisoned effect, it may have a special variation for this weapon in the LMAB7.

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2009, 11:18
I also think it is option 2. I also think all boltthrowers should have this rule :). How many time i have seen boltthrowers hitting units and proceding to roll a 1 for the to wound roll.

Sure, the flying tree that just hit you won't hurt a lot mr spearman...

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 11:21
'Tis but a splinter, and unworthy of my cognizance.

foehammer888
13-01-2009, 12:48
I think people's interpretation of #2 is the correct one, particularly when you relate it to killing blow.

When you attack with a bolt thrower, you roll to hit. If you succeed, you hit the first model, and roll to wound. If you wound, and the model is killed, the next model behind it is automatically hit.

If the bolt thrower achieves a poisoned hit (6), it autowounds that first model. However, as later models are automatically hit if the previous model dies, there is no opportunity for poison.

I can't think of a specific example off the top of my head, but if a model with poisoned attacks attacks a model which is "automatically hit in close combat" (I think some spell effects do this) the attacking model loses the opportunity for poison. As others mention, its similar to poison negating the opportunity for killing blow (as you no longer roll to wound).

Embalmed
13-01-2009, 12:53
I'm going to argue to go with '3' when it comes up, but I could go either way, it depends on how you think poison actually works, does it
1. on a roll of '6' to hit applies a 'wounds automatically' effect to the attack
or
2. on a roll of '6' to hit the model against which the to hit roll was made is automatically wounded.

Vague wording is the culprit here and I think a compromise is the friendliest solution.

Griefbringer
13-01-2009, 13:19
Since the book has been printed, and several people have seen it and confirmed that the poisoned bolt thrower exists and has no extra rule to cover the poison and rank penetration

Then I would like to nominate option:

5.) Spanking the guilty author until a clarifying FAQ is released in a timely fashion.

Hiratu
13-01-2009, 13:33
I think option 2 is the way it will be ruled when the faq comes out and the way it is intended altough I wish it were option 3. I don't like the idea that just because the rules for bolt throwers don't call for to hit rolls after the first model the poison is nullified on the subsequent ranks (or maybe the designers are thinking ahead and they are going to make bolt throwers roll to hit for every model next edition... wait, what am I saying?).

I mean I guess they made it poisonous to keep it consistent with the rest of the army as all other lizardmen ranged projectiles are poisoned (I think). My biggest problem is it is only a slight buff as it only works against the first model and the steg didn't get a points decrease. Altough I guess the argument could be made that since it was moved to a special choice a point reduction would have made it too good.

Oh well... sorry for going on a slight tangent there at the end.

Edit: Actually now that I think about it I think the steg did it a couple of other buffs; increased unit strength, +1 leadership, ItP.

Sifal
13-01-2009, 14:07
I have the lizardmen book in front of me now so i will just clarify that there are no rules specific to the nature of the poison printed in it. All it says is Giant Bow -Range 36", str 5, damage D3, special - no armour save and poisoned attacks. a note under this says 'A giant bow penetrates ranks in the same manner as a bolt thrower (see main rulebook)

I think option #2 is the best fit but answer this..... if a 6 is rolled to hit then it autowounds the model in the first rank but what strength is used for subsequent wounding? full strength of the bow cos first wound was automatic or -1 because it has already penetrated one rank?

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 14:16
Strength 5 bows usually don't auto-wound.

Kadrium
13-01-2009, 14:28
If the bow wounds the first rank, the hit against the 2nd rank would be -1 str. Doesn't matter if the first wound was automatic or not, that's how wounding successive ranks works.

And I agree that 1 to-hit roll = 1 auto wound, not the entire rank.

Harwammer
13-01-2009, 15:34
You roll a 6, you auto wound the first guy. Because you killed him you auto hit the next guy. This is a seperate hit which you have not rolled for, thus there can be no auto wound from poison.

If you want fluff justification the poison is all deposited within the first body, leaving insufficient poison to autowound his friends as the bolt passes through them too?

Mireadur
13-01-2009, 15:56
fluff is precisely what RAW people care the least for... :P

Grontik
13-01-2009, 16:26
I agree with the general consensus that #2 is the way it is supposed to be played and I think the poison option is a great thing to have for this weapon as it adds incentive to use it on lone high toughness critters. Doesn't add too much and fits in with the army.

msinosic
14-01-2009, 20:54
Option 1 is wishful thinking and an overpowered choice with nerf incoming.

Option 2 appears to be the most correct, certainly if they add fluff which states that hits on the second and subsequent ranks of troops are non poisoned as the first model hit absorbs all the poison coated on the weapon.

Option 3 is also nice and I wouldnt mind playing it this way, certainly if they add fluff which states that hits on the second and subsequent ranks of troops are also poisoned but due to most of the poisoned be absorbed by the models infront the chance of an automatic wound is grately reduced and hence the additional poison check (hit roll) is required.

Of course there currently is no fluff and no clarification so just make sure for the time being you state all the options to your opponent/gaming group and decide before play.