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mistermaster
12-01-2009, 21:39
Hi guys,

All of you have helped me before so time to help me again (please!).

In my gaming community we suffer a guy whos trying to convince us that he hast to tell us if his thane has an oath stone or even is a standard bearer.

He stated that nothing in the rulebook says he has to tell the equipment of the units or the heroes. Is he right?

Im trying to find a place where it says that mundane equipment has to be declared but i cannot find it. Could you help me?

Thanks a lot

Da_Greeniest
12-01-2009, 21:48
I am not sure about that rule, but I do feel it's a general courtesy to let your opponent know if a unit is equipped differently then what the model shows.

I also feel it's a general courtesy to be more descriptive about what magic items or banners you have at the moment you start using them. To me it feels a bit rude to have an opponent go,

Dude: "Okay, my Cold One Riders have Always Strike First..."
Me: (Isn't familiar with Banner of Hag Graef) "??? Huh? How do they have that?"
Dude: "It's a banner."
Me: "...okay."

Condottiere
12-01-2009, 22:03
You can proxy models, but you have to inform your opponent what is visually obvious, including command models, weapons, armour, etcetera.

My Dwarf opponent always tells me if a unit has an oath stone.

Kalandros
13-01-2009, 01:31
Dwarf book specifically forces the player to tell who has an Oath Stone...
pg 28 of Dwarf book.. "A character with an oath stone must nominate a unit"

Anytime something is "nominated" it is told to the opposing player, unlike things like Assassin where it tells you to secretly write where you place it.

Other cases of "Nomination" is that Sword of Fate in the empire, you have to tell who the Sword is targetting.

Also, nothing in the rules say you hide what your unit is equiped with - any equipment is to be on the models and for characters, you are to tell what you are equipped with. Magic 2 Hander? You tell your opponent your character has a Great Weapon. Simple as that.

Neckutter
13-01-2009, 05:14
models must be WYSIWYG.
you must be able to look at the model and see if it is a BSB or not.
you must also be able to see an oathstone.
if you cannot see the character has a shield, then he DOESNT have a shield.
if the character doesnt have a gun/great weapon/crossbow/shield/BSB/spear whatever, then they dont have it. its under the WYSIWG rules.

if your gamer-buddy is a cheap person that doesnt like to pay for models, or is even too cheap to "convert" his army to have a cheapy flag-thing or a rock to stand on...if you cannot see either of these, then regardless of whether he has paid the points for them or not, he doesnt have a BSB NOR does he has an oathstone.

we have a cheap gamer who likes to use peanut cans as "drop pods". he refuses to buy the expensive GW model, and refuses to at least convert his peanut cans with stormbolters and/or doors OR even paint them. needless to say people dont like playing him.

GodlessM
13-01-2009, 05:38
if your gamer-buddy is a cheap person that doesnt like to pay for models, or is even too cheap to "convert" his army to have a cheapy flag-thing or a rock to stand on...if you cannot see either of these, then regardless of whether he has paid the points for them or not, he doesnt have a BSB NOR does he has an oathstone.

Ok, you can't tell this like this is the way it is, this depends entirely on the gaming group/TO/opponent etc. In our group once the points are paid and the player makes it clear to his opponent what the unit has, then there is no issues.

Neckutter
13-01-2009, 05:45
AH, but therein lies the crux...
mr powergamer wants to not model ANYTHING and then say "oh yeah he is my bsb, with an oathstone"

i have no problem with proxying models at all. but that being said if someone is trying to get an unfair advantage out of it, then all bets are off.

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 07:06
It's simple - even if the correct models are used, your opponent still can request you to list the equipment; otherwise, it can be considered cheating.

If I happen to use a beer can for a drop pod, whether empty, full, or in the process of being emptied, as long as my opponent agrees and accepts it represents a drop pod and I place it correctly back in its location, it is a drop pod.

Urgat
13-01-2009, 07:51
Sadly, I don't have my BRB with me... anyway, for the others: you do know explaining won't help? It's not because you say that this dude must do this or that that he will. The OP needs rules and page references. he's got one for the oath stone, now he needs that for the BSB.
Well there's the wysiwyg rule somewhere (the one that states that 50% of the unit must be modelled according to what it is using), maybe the answer lies in this page?

Neckutter
13-01-2009, 08:57
well on page 82, it describes what a BSB is. first paragraph under the heading of "the battle standard". a BSB is a character who carries a standard. if the character model DOESNT have a standard modeled, then it cant be a BSB.

furthermore on page 80 it talks about WHAT a standard is. it is a "flag, banner, totemic idol, or similar device".

as a standard and an oath stone are non-magical equipment this should be visible to the opponent, OR must be declared.

mistermaster
13-01-2009, 08:59
Thanks guys a lot,

The guy im talking about is a bit odd. He has a converted army with slayers riding slaved trolls, slaved giants, an anvil converted to be full forge and things like that. He says that the oath stone is a "strategic trick". He thinks that if the enemiy is aware of the oath stone then its pointless. The same with the standard bearer.

All of we argue with him but he is a kind of stubborn longbeard and angry man.

My reasoning is that if you (by rules) dont have to declare mundane equipment, then you dont have to declare the composition of each unit or even what army are you using in each battle (in the case of multiple armies). So a total unsportmanship environment.

He doesnt care because he only cares about his own things...im a bit tired of this guy.

So, please help me with page reference and rules. Thanks!!

kroq'gar
13-01-2009, 09:14
Its in there, i just dont have the book handy. Remember if he insists upon this then remember you can pull him up on base sized, and im pretty sure that a dwarf army cannot have a giant... (check is DOW rules or ask him to show you them).

If he thinks a large, army rallying banner doesnt have to be declared then simply tell him thats ridiculas. Start fielding wizard models and not telling him that its a fight lord. Start fielding fast cavalry and not telling him they are actually a full command heavy cav regiment.

Stop putting command groups in your units and not telling him until combat.

Its a two way door, my bet is he throws a tantrum and packs up.

unfortunately this game attracts some antisocial people, so i guess take into consideration he might not be all their in the head and just use the same rules as him (dont tell or show equipment etc).

Neckutter
13-01-2009, 09:21
or just dont play him.

actually i take that back. play him and cheat the living hell outta him.
make all of your chaos warriors chosen stats.
make all of your ghouls T5, S4
all of your tomb guard have full plate armor
and all your units have 75 point magic banners

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 10:04
Don't play him or lay down the law regarding what has to be declared. Write a list.

DoW rules permit a giant in a rare slot. DoW rules are only a matter of courtesy in a non-DoW army.

Griefbringer
13-01-2009, 10:51
For rules about modelling mundane weapons on units, see the page 54, section 'Weapons and units'. Pay special attention to the part "it is important that the overall appearance of the unit is not misleading'.