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Deacon Bane
12-01-2009, 21:59
How do you guys handle it when, your opponent purposely over guesses the range, to hit something not targetable. I use warhounds to screen my Knights, but my Empire opponent over guesses, several rounds, in order to hit them. I believe this is cheating, so should i call him on it or live with it?

Surgency
12-01-2009, 22:10
perfectly legal. Unless, of course, he guesses 30 inches for something thats within 8 :p remember, though, that he still has to roll to see where it hits, and then roll for bounce... I've had plenty a cannon sniper shot completely miss absolutely everything on the table because the rolls didn't like me

Spell_of_Destruction
12-01-2009, 22:17
It's a grey area. You're not supposed to target the knights because you can't see them but the rules ultimately allow you to guess however many inches you want, even if it's obvious that the 'target' unit is simply being used to draw line of sight to a higher priority concealed target. It's clearly not in the spirit of the game.

EndlessBug
12-01-2009, 22:20
completely illegal, I'd have a go at him for it. Well ask him not to at first but if he keeps on doing it just ignore his blocking units for LoS purposes too.

Now if your warhouds are about an inch away from the knights then it's very ahrd to prove it and not really that unexpected for a cannon ball to hit both or the target just behind the hounds.

As surgency says, if he's guessing 30" for a unit that's 8" away then that's plain wrong.

solvay
12-01-2009, 22:27
ruleswise its perfectly legal
although it is quite outside of the spirit of the game if you are abusing it

Oberon
13-01-2009, 07:12
Keep the hounds a little bit further away from your knights, so it is blindingly obvious that he isn't actually shooting the hounds but your knights. Then you can expose this over guesser, and he should comply. Works, when both players are aware that over guessing is "bad" and know the distance between the cannon and their targets. With inexperienced players, the trouble might well be that the guesser simply does not know how far he should guess.

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2009, 07:41
Or let him just place the point instead of guessing. That will learn him to deliberaty overguess...
Face it, either he is a bad guesser and he doesn't hit your knight on purpose, or he is using "loopholes" to hit them. By letting him place the ball without guessing, you can prevent him from "targetting" your knights, because it will be bloody obvious then.

Oh, and canon sniping usually means targetting characters in units, forcing a lookout sir, not overguessing. Just so you know.

slingersam
13-01-2009, 08:15
It may not be cheating, but if he does continue to do it, you can use
this house rule: If your guess range is 3" or 4" off the intended target
consider it a miss. Thats what my group does and it works.

Anardakil
13-01-2009, 08:28
I don't think it's very mean. Realistically speaking we can assume that the cannon crew can see that there are big, mean knights behind the hounds and then it wouldn't exactly be far fetched to assume that they would fire the cannon balls through the hounds.

I think it's a fair advantage that cannons has over crossbows, handguns and such. Cannonballs punch straight through anything and that's something that both the cannon crew and the army's general would be aware of.

Of course there are very mean uses of this tactic. Like when you overguess by miles to try to hit a lone wizard or something like that. But as for the doggies screening the knights I don't think it's all that unfair.

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2009, 08:30
It may not be cheating, but if he does continue to do it, you can use
this house rule: If your guess range is 3" or 4" off the intended target
consider it a miss. Thats what my group does and it works.

Ok, but don't let him roll the artillerydie then. And 3" or 4" is a very narrow margin if you're not good at guessing.
Maybe just ignore the shot if the guess is over the target. (also ignore misfire then)

mossel
13-01-2009, 08:47
as the hounds are in front of the knights, I wouldn't see why not to shoot the hounds first and taking a knight as the cannonball rolls along...

TroyJPerez
13-01-2009, 08:50
I have played an empire player who shot at a front unit but aimed directly at a model in the unit that would set up the cannonball in path with a mounted hero that was not in line of site. Would this be considered a form of cheating?

kroq'gar
13-01-2009, 08:58
I have played an empire player who shot at a front unit but aimed directly at a model in the unit that would set up the cannonball in path with a mounted hero that was not in line of site. Would this be considered a form of cheating?

depends on the angle, if it was incidently the same path as hitting maximum models in the target unit then all fair.

I also dont see a problem with lobbing cannonballs into massed troups in the hope of hitting as many units as possible, provided your trying to kill the model your shooting at.

We just know when the rule is being abused, if its a clean overshot eg rolling ten for a bounce & first roll then its part of the game.

TroyJPerez
13-01-2009, 09:05
I belive the player I played with said "I am gonna shoot a canon at that model right there along the path to the chaos guy on the mount behind the unit" lol

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2009, 09:08
Why not? Why only aim for 1 model when you can get 2?

TroyJPerez
13-01-2009, 09:22
Oh sorry I think I phrased that wrong, he said he was deliberatly aiming at a model in a unit that would set the cannon along a path to hit a lone chaos hero on mount behind them that he couldn't see.

kroq'gar
13-01-2009, 09:23
Why not? Why only aim for 1 model when you can get 2?

Thats well and good, but when your aim for those two and in the process are NOT aiming for 4, thats quite obviously a biased out of LOS shot.

Commodus Leitdorf
13-01-2009, 10:39
A Guy in my gaming group plays Lizardmen and he had his Skinks lined up infront of his Krox. Basicaly he was denying me decent shots for my cannons and I wanted to shoot in a direct line to hit the skink and the Kroxigor too...but honestly that is cheap so I said fine, I'd still shoot at the skinks but I'll shoot away from where the krox are located.

Honestly, if hes shooting a 100pt monster crushing cannon at one 6pt hound, hes doing it to get at the knights behind that he cant see...its cheap and illegal and I would personally call him out on it.

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2009, 10:54
That's why i'm advocating to get rid of the guessing. Just let him place the cannonball where he wants.

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2009, 10:56
A Guy in my gaming group plays Lizardmen and he had his Skinks lined up infront of his Krox. Basicaly he was denying me decent shots for my cannons and I wanted to shoot in a direct line to hit the skink and the Kroxigor too...but honestly that is cheap so I said fine, I'd still shoot at the skinks but I'll shoot away from where the krox are located.

Honestly, if hes shooting a 100pt monster crushing cannon at one 6pt hound, hes doing it to get at the knights behind that he cant see...its cheap and illegal and I would personally call him out on it.

How is that any different from the situation with the hounds/chaos knights?
"Honestly, if you're shooting a 100pt monster crushing cannon at one 6 pt skink, you're doing it to get at the kroxigors behind that you cant see...its cheap and illegal and I would personally call you out on it"
See...

Commodus Leitdorf
13-01-2009, 11:00
How is that any different from the situation with the hounds/chaos knights?
"Honestly, if you're shooting a 100pt monster crushing cannon at one 6 pt skink, you're doing it to get at the kroxigors behind that you cant see...its cheap and illegal and I would personally call you out on it"
See...

I shot at the skinks lined up infront of the Krox, but I shot at a place they were lined up that didn't have any krox behind them. So basically all I did was kill a 6pt skink and I left the Krox alone.

If you cant see them, you shouldn't be trying to bounce a cannon ball into them.

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2009, 11:06
Sorry, misread what you posted. Thought you DID bounce a ball through them.

Anyway, i usually try to guess 6 inches short, so most of the times i do hit something in the front unit. The rest is bonus. However, i won't make any effort to NOT hit the unit behind. If that bothers my opponent too hard, he can find himself another person to play against.

mossel
13-01-2009, 11:53
Anyway, i usually try to guess 6 inches short, so most of the times i do hit something in the front unit. The rest is bonus. However, i won't make any effort to NOT hit the unit behind. If that bothers my opponent too hard, he can find himself another person to play against.

agreed! you shoot the first thing coming for you, but in the meantime take out of what's coming next. just as it goes in a real war. what else is the purpose of shooting with a cannon?

those hounds are good screens for small arms/bows/bolts/... but cannon balls aren't meant to kill a unit or regiment, but to tear gaps in your enemy's units!

Storak
13-01-2009, 11:54
"over-guessing" and "sniping" are two different things (both tend to be bad).

over-guessing: i don t know, why GW got rid of the rule prohibiting this. a rule that tells you "over-guessing is not in the spirit of the game" might be difficult to enforce sometimes. but at least everyone around the table will know, who the good guy is.
eliminating the rule makes it fair game to target units WAY BACK behind the "target". pretty bad stuff.

sniping: targeting characters inside a unit is a pretty bad thing against "normal" chars. it abuses the special template of the cannon (a line is much better than a circular template against a char on the corner of a unit, especially as it keeps its high strength) and deciding games by a "look out sir" is NOT funny.
on the other hand, many of the modern super chars (thing: herald of nurgle) often NEED sniping. the problem is, that this does ESTABLISH sniping (again) as a legitimate tactic, with pretty bed consequences for normal games and normal chars.

--------------

PS: best house rule i ever read about over-guessing is this one: BOTH players guess each shot. if the player who is shot at has guessed CLOSER to the target point than the player shooting the cannon, then his guess is used to measure the shot. simply NICE.

Storak
13-01-2009, 12:01
agreed! you shoot the first thing coming for you, but in the meantime take out of what's coming next. just as it goes in a real war. what else is the purpose of shooting with a cannon?

those hounds are good screens for small arms/bows/bolts/... but cannon balls aren't meant to kill a unit or regiment, but to tear gaps in your enemy's units!

i strongly disagree. the problem is NOT with two units close together. most people would accept a guess that is 1 or 2 inches longer than you would normally do.

over-guessing becomes a real problem when you target characters in the unit that you CANNOT see, or when "targeting" a warmachine 30 inch behind the unit approaching you.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
13-01-2009, 12:04
I think its lame but does make sense if he was to land it in your unit of hounds and have it bounce through the knights. Rulewise its legal as listed above though incredibly lame IMO. He could atleast have it land somewhere near the screen unit. Its the equivalent to shooting into the abyss hoping that there are really expensive models there. Find a rule that you yourself can exploit and beat him at his own game. I would say something but nothing harsh and if it persists find another way to own him that he doesnt fancy. For exery action there is an equal and opposite reaction! Newton had this game figured out! ;)

kramplarv
13-01-2009, 12:18
There is nothing wrong with shooting at unit X in an angle that would make the ball hit unit Y standing behind. If you are such a fool that you place your chariots behind a hound screen for example.. then suffer the bad effects.

There is also nothing wrong in saying that "I aim for that dog in this angle so i might bounce into the chariot!"

The wrong part is aiming at a dog 20" away and saying that you guess 24". But aiming 17" and hitting the dog, and that chariot behind with the bounce are no wrong at all.
There is a rule when firing the cannon saying that one MUST guess as accurately as he can against the target unit, which must be something he can see.

Cambion Daystar
13-01-2009, 12:23
But who who are you to argue that your opponent is not guessing at his best?
I often over/underguess by 10 inches (especially going diagonally is difficult).

Draconian77
13-01-2009, 12:30
How?

Guessing in this game is just so easy...My group have every stone thrower/cannon shot to within an inch of their target every time. As soon as you know the dimensions of the board, the deployment zones, movement rates and can do a little math for oblique firing the whole point of "guessing" becomes utterly redundent.

kramplarv
13-01-2009, 12:35
daystar: It is very obvious, if the shot is somewhere between 6"-10" wrong, I would frown upon it, and suggest you re-guess if that "wrong" just happened to get to my chariot 16" away from the screen.

But most of the time there are no real problems with overguessing since after a few games you will learn how to guess on the spot. Personally it is rare for being more than 1" away from my intended target. (that being, about 8" away from the back of the unit since one must calculate the bounce to :p)

But sniping is not lame, bad sports or cheat. It is tactics. When fighting cannons you must not deploy like a fool. :) Or move like one.

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 13:56
Deliberate overguessing is cheating, but it's also a matter of scale. If the indicated target is within 24", it's obvious, and ideally short of 3-5"; if it's between 36-48", you may have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

High Loremaster
13-01-2009, 14:26
Oh sorry I think I phrased that wrong, he said he was deliberatly aiming at a model in a unit that would set the cannon along a path to hit a lone chaos hero on mount behind them that he couldn't see.

Now, I'm pretty sure that's just straight up cheating, if he admitted he was doing it.

It's a gray area. Like Condottiere said, it's relative to the range of the shot. If you're playing with someone who you know has poor range guessing skills, or if the shot is particularly difficult and long-ranged, it's fine.

Arguleon-veq
13-01-2009, 16:02
I think over guessing is wrong but I dont see anything wrong at all with aiming at a unit and hitting it with the hope of also hitting something behind.

Last game I shot one chariot as I was on an angle and wanted to also hit the chariot that was lagging behind thanks to stupidity in a single bounce. I could have just shot at the rear chariot as I was on a hill, but why would I do that? I ended up killing both Chariots with one shot.

The game before I was trying to force a look out sir on an Archmage in some White Lions but over shot and my Cannon Ball took out his Bolt Thrower on the hill behind. A legitimate wrong guess that killed something else.

In all I think its fine so long as you try to hit as many models as you can from the target unit that you can see. If your going to hit 4 models no matter what, then you are better hitting the 4 models where the path of your cannon ball will also hit one of the Knights behind the unit rather than not. I dont see anything wrong with that.

Cry of the Wind
13-01-2009, 16:45
All this is why I'd like to see cannons fire similar to Nova Cannons from Battlefleet Gothic. In that game the guess range Nova Cannon became far too powerful because of accurate guessing. The solution: Pick a target and then scatter off of it with the number of cm scattered determined by the distance to the target.

For WHFB cannons I'd be happy with a pick a target unit and place a marker in the front and center of the unit. Roll the artillery die and scatter die. If a hit is scored the cannon ball bounces the number rolled on the artillery die forward if not misfired. If an arrow is rolled place the marker D3" from the original spot in the direction shown. Then bounce as normal. In all cases the bounce follows a straight line in the path of the cannon barrel to the marker.

Might need a little play testing to work it all out but seems reasonable to me. It makes the game more fair for those who are not good guessers and also for the opponents of really good guessers (vast majority of people who have played any length of time).

Personally I dislike the fact that cannon balls always fire in a perfectly straight line from cannon to target. I'm not up on historical accuracy but it seems that given the distances involved a cannon crew would have a hard time picking out individual troops in a regiment that is charging at them.

MarcoPollo
13-01-2009, 16:59
In the spirit of the game, your opponent should not be deliberately over guessing and snipping. If he wants to over guess into thin air, then fine. If he wants to over guess into my chariots then I have an issue.

If I find a player who plays this way, I tend to pull out my own "dirty" tricks. And I tend to show no mercy. I often recall the time I was taught the same lesson way back in 5th edition. Every army has little dirty tricks that abuse the rules. From chariots clipping, to dubious magic combos, every army has the possibility of rules abuse. I don't usually start the issues, but if my opponent wants to engage in dirty tricks, then I can oblige.

Oberon
13-01-2009, 17:04
Again, you could also just say to you over-guessing opponent that his guess is obviously wrong, and he is really trying to hit the unit behind the first one. When confronted this way, he should change his guess, I think most players would

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 17:24
All this is why I'd like to see cannons fire similar to Nova Cannons from Battlefleet Gothic. In that game the guess range Nova Cannon became far too powerful because of accurate guessing. The solution: Pick a target and then scatter off of it with the number of cm scattered determined by the distance to the target.

For WHFB cannons I'd be happy with a pick a target unit and place a marker in the front and center of the unit. Roll the artillery die and scatter die. If a hit is scored the cannon ball bounces the number rolled on the artillery die forward if not misfired. If an arrow is rolled place the marker D3" from the original spot in the direction shown. Then bounce as normal. In all cases the bounce follows a straight line in the path of the cannon barrel to the marker.

Might need a little play testing to work it all out but seems reasonable to me. It makes the game more fair for those who are not good guessers and also for the opponents of really good guessers (vast majority of people who have played any length of time).

Personally I dislike the fact that cannon balls always fire in a perfectly straight line from cannon to target. I'm not up on historical accuracy but it seems that given the distances involved a cannon crew would have a hard time picking out individual troops in a regiment that is charging at them.

Scatter dice would be an option, and would reflect the inaccuracy of a cannon, but the cost of cannons would have to sink by a third, I estimate.

Cry of the Wind
13-01-2009, 17:31
If anything the cannon costs are too low right now because of the sniping tactic and would be priced closer to what they should be with my change. But like I said it needs play testing to figure out what is best for costs.

shartmatau
13-01-2009, 20:06
Personally I think cannons are hard to use. Over guessing definitly seems not in the spirit of a friendly game. But guessing to hit a unit you can see and aiming so that you hit multiple units with a bounce it what cannons are made to do and is totally fine with the rules. In fact thats the only real advantage that cannons have over bolt throwers, the ability to hit everything in its path.
So guessing to avoid shooting one unit and hit the unit behind or really far away, kind of rubbish player. But aiming to get the best use out of your one shot is how cannons are supposed to work and be played. Honestly if you left you lone character behind a unit thinking hes safe from a cannon that is your bad movement, not the cannon players.

mossel
13-01-2009, 20:34
if anyone overguesses to hit something 20" behind the 'target' unit, and he doesn't agree the guess is foolish, it's game over.

Captain Plowman
14-01-2009, 00:42
There is nothing illegal about it guys! i know its not in the spirit of the game, but there is nothing in the rules to say he cant. I've done it, and seen it being done, in many tournaments. no matter how much you try and rule book your way out of it, you cant. my advice, hide your knights behind trees. he cant target trees ;)

Chicago Slim
14-01-2009, 00:43
How?

Guessing in this game is just so easy...My group have every stone thrower/cannon shot to within an inch of their target every time.

Well, not everyone is hip to the Pythagorean Theorem... But, I tend to find that players who lack the "core competency" of being able to estimate measurements to within an inch or so, aren't hard to beat anyway.

Tools who overguess are welcome to do so, and I'll cheerfully play them. No rule against being a tool, and it's a fine test of my own ability to play well (and to avoid the invitation to be a tool in response).

How do you deal with someone who's cheating? You beat them. It's usually not that hard, even-- people who resort to cheating are usually lazy, stupid, or both.

Captain Plowman
14-01-2009, 00:46
oh, and there is nothing wrong with sniping either. they invented 'look out sir!' to discourage it, but if they wanted to stop it they would have made it impossible. over guessing and sniping is not cheating. i agree, its not very sporting, but its anything but illegal.

Surgency
14-01-2009, 01:01
at the same time, though, I happen to think that screening your uber powerful unit with an uber cheap unit is unsporting. Some people whine that "Its just not fair for you to be able to guess a range at unit X, and still hit unit Y". I say the opposite. It's not fair for you to put unit Y behind an ultra cheap meatshield, so I can't shoot at it because some small dogs are in the way, making it so your ded-killy unit is guaranteed to get in combat with my not so killy things".


It's part of the balance :p

Dexter099
14-01-2009, 02:03
Over guessing to hit a unit your cannon cannot see is cheating, as per the Official FAQ.

Malorian
14-01-2009, 04:59
I know the faq was against it, but I think it's a valid part of the game.

I've been on the recieving end of it for a long time and just recently I've done it a few times with my doom diver.

One of my usual players got kind of pissed off about it so I stopped, but if someone did it to me I've just give mey opponent a wink and let him go ahead.

Condottiere
14-01-2009, 06:05
In real life, Dwarves would be castled in dug out bunkers and trenches, with emplaced gatlings.

Seriously, and technically, cannon sniping is legal. And so is trying to hit a target behind the seen one. But there are degrees of tolerance.

Cambion Daystar
19-01-2009, 06:53
In real life, Dwarves would be castled in dug out bunkers and trenches, with emplaced gatlings.


No, in real life dwarfs would be considered too short for military service :)

Condottiere
19-01-2009, 08:03
Not unless they join the Marine Corps, though their bulk might cause problems in tight gangways.

Cambion Daystar
19-01-2009, 08:46
Do they float?

Condottiere
19-01-2009, 09:06
I suspect not:

1. Fear of water.

2. Muscle, not fat (so they inform me).

3. Would have been declared as witches by the Inquisition and hunted down by men in Pilgrim hats.

Disciple of Caliban
19-01-2009, 10:33
^^ Totally OT, but they do float. Check the book elfslayer for confirmation

PeG
19-01-2009, 14:18
We sometimes use a house rule that we believe fixes the problem with overguessing. It allows the targeted player to allow a perfect hit if he wants to after rolling the cannon dice but before rolling for the bounce.

A perfect hit is defined as a direct hit at model in the front rank of the targeted unit. Of course the cannon ball then bounces as normal. The player firing the cannon cant really complain about getting a perfect hit and the targeted player has the choice. Choosing to give a perfect hit sometimes saves the unit behind from getting hit but depending on the bouncing it may actually make things worse for the targeted player as well.

sroblin
19-01-2009, 15:25
Personally I think cannons are hard to use. Over guessing definitely seems not in the spirit of a friendly game. But guessing to hit a unit you can see and aiming so that you hit multiple units with a bounce it what cannons are made to do and is totally fine with the rules. In fact that's the only real advantage that cannons have over bolt throwers, the ability to hit everything in its path.


I think this can't be overemphasized, because some folks are arguing that deliberately over guessing to hit a target they can't see and aiming optimally to hit multiple targets (which may not be immediately visible) are equally wrong. Deliberately over guessing is against the rule, agreed. But aiming optimally with the cannon to hit useful stuff behind is how they work- because unless it's on a hill, the cannon crew supposedly won't be able to see anything behind the first model it hits, and thus would never shoot effective shots by this interpretation of the rules. If they wanted cannons only to be useful against large monsters, they could just make them work like guess range bolt-throwers- but the rules are intended to make them useful at plowing through enemy formations. I disagree with the above example of somebody deliberately fudging his cannon shot to make it more 'realistic'- how can any person know exactly where the cannon crew would have placed the shot? Deliberately aiming away from a good shot is as unrealistic as always aiming for one; an interpretation of the rules that states that a player should deliberately sabotage the effectiveness of their own shots 'for realism' is simply too ambiguous. It's only fair to expect everyone to take the best shot they can, based of course on what units are actually eligible for targeting.

The above example also extolled the importance of using skinks to screen Kroxigors (and before that it was hounds in front of towering Chaos Knights on steeds of doom.) Can't anyone see the irony about complaining about the realism of the situation?

I'm not arguing this because I'm a power gamer, usually I'm the one with cannons being pointed my way. But I think it's unfair to extoll an interpretation of the rules which expects players to use them as ineffectively as possible on an honors system.

Deacon Bane
19-01-2009, 15:37
Realism in WHFB is useless, I am no way looking for it. But when you overguess by a far amount, say 7 or 8 inches, several turns in a row, now you are exploiting the rules. Sure some people may be bad guessers, but on the first shot you are over by a bunch, then with your second shot you guess the same or a little more or less? I think then it becomes clear you are cheating. Realisticly I agree hounds should not be able to shield big shiny khnights on horses, but rules are rules. Friendly games I will let the opponent know that I know what he is doing. Sometimes that is enough to get him back into the proper use of the rules. In tourneys, all his scores suffer when it is time to grade the game. Our local cannon "overguesser" wins alot of games, but can't understand why he never wins "Best Overall".

Condottiere
19-01-2009, 16:42
You should give the benefit of the doubt to the targeting player that he misjudged the shot, but it doesn't take much evidence to figure out if he's abusing the spirit of the rules.

dragonlancr
19-01-2009, 17:27
Am I correct that if the cannon were on a hill, it would be a non-issue? (From a rule perspective.)

Yikes, I need to brush up on the ole rules.

W0lf
19-01-2009, 17:41
Over-guessing is a fine and valid tactic in my oppion, learn to del with it.

For the record none of my armies have guess range weapons.

EDIT; Oh and as for 'its not in the spirit of the game'... well neither is;

- Taking a power-gaming list
- min-maxing
- 1000 pts of characters
- max magic
- gunline.

So infact the vast majority of things are 'not in the spirit of the game'.

Condottiere
19-01-2009, 18:06
I'm not saying that's the only issue that's not in the spirit, and min-maxing has always been an issue, which I stand guilty of both in this game and others.