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W0lf
12-01-2009, 22:39
Hi.

I play V. reguarly in a large gaming group full of mostly power-gamers. I have a rep for being the biggest power-gamer (because i win most).

Now to prove that i am the best player of the group (me and 2/10 think so) and ts not just the lists, im going to play what we decided was the worst army - Beasts.

This also sits great with me as im particularly unimpressed with the new WoC book and the fact everyone jumped onto my army! (sole WoC player for a yr but meh whatcha ganna do?)

so the list;

2,000 pts Beasts of Chaos – Children of undivided


Great Bray Shaman - General
Lvl 4, Staff of Darkoth, Dispel Scroll
265 pts

Bray-shaman
Lvl 2, Braystaff, Dispel Scroll
141 pts

Bray-shaman
Lvl 2, Braystaff, Dispel Scroll
141 pts

Wargor
Mark of Khorne, Great weapon, Shield, Chaos armour, Bloodhunt horn
141 pts

Beast herd
12 Gor with additional hand weapons
8 Ungor
Full command
151 pts

Beast herd
12 Gor with additional hand weapons
8 Ungor
Full command
151 pts

Beast herd
12 Gor with additional hand weapons
8 Ungor
Full command
151 pts

Tuskgor Chariot
Mark of Tzeentch
105 pts

Tuskgor Chariot
Mark of Tzeentch
105 pts


5 chaos hounds
30 pts

5 chaos hounds
30 pts

5 chaos hounds
30 pts

17 Bestigor
Mark of Khorne, Full command, Warbanner
304 pts

4 Minotaur’s
Mark of Nurgle, Great weapons, light armour, Standard
241 pts

12 PD
8 DD + 3 scrolls
102 models

I think its very competitive -especially like the high magic + Death unit of Khorne. The bloodhunt horn will give players something to consider when they flee the charge (most will ofc). Hounds can screen the frenzied troops as no.1 priority whilst chariots cover the units flanks.

so C&C?

Dragon Prince of Caledor
12-01-2009, 23:50
I know nothing of beasts but i can tell you that I hate power gamers I like the lists that are the most fun! sorry i cant be of any use to you.

fubukii
13-01-2009, 04:40
normally people use less gors and more ungors to soak up hits and to get in spear attacks. but your way will work as well. I suggest taking a Beastlord with MOT and the item that lets him know bears anger. Still a level 4 and can get some ok spells, in addition to the anger.

W0lf
13-01-2009, 10:06
Then i cant take the Khorne bestigor+Wargor.

I had thought about it but overall i really like having the heavy hitting unit (6 wide with 15 S6).

One thing i noticed is i cant have MoN on the minos as they have to have generals mark.

In that case ill drop MoN + the light armour (37 pts), they get undivided for free (woot) and get another 5 hounds.

Im considering the 12 ngor/8 Gor style but i prefer the Gor overall. Hell if i could i wouldnt even take ungor (rather T4 vs shooting imo)

kroq'gar
13-01-2009, 10:09
could be worse, better than 20 chariots & some chariot rising scroll caddies...

Gramolarian
13-01-2009, 10:37
how about if you make your general to be that wargor with MoK and drop off those marks on chariots and stick with Undvd that they have on basis. make minos with mark of khorne and great weapons or with additional hand weapons and use em as block killers. you have enough hounds to screen them off from bad charges. you get 2 less power dice but I´m quite positive that 3 shamans are enough as they are.

Harwammer
13-01-2009, 13:51
That doesn't look like a power gamers army! It looks far too tactically rounded. I'd have thought a power gamer would have taken Gorthor + 3 giants + bsb in herd + 3 units of khorne minotaurs and chariots to fill core!

But more seriously:
That looks a decent list, you'll have to make sure you put your bestigor/minotaurs in the right place; they're the only decent strength models you have!

If I was you, which I am not, I'd be tempted to drop the mark of tz from the chariots, make the wargor general and have the Minos marked khorne too. Doing that exacerbates the problem of not many high strength units though as they won't neccesarily go where you want them to! :)

WhiteKnight
13-01-2009, 14:35
Well Harwammer is right. This isn't much of a power gamer list. Beasts can be pretty nasty with marks of khorne and tzeentch. In a tournament, I used 4 wizards (3 tzeentch, 1 undivided), 2 beast herds, 2 blocks of 20 bestigors (one had mark of tzeentch), and then loaded up on Minos, 2 shaggoths (612 points right there), and chariots. IMO shaggoths are worth taking because they beast on the unsuspecting.

W0lf
13-01-2009, 14:49
its not meant to be a power-gaming list...

I wouldnt be prving i was a good player if i took 20 chariots now would i?

I want a decent balanced force with hitting power from a 'weak' book.

Btw to explain the magic.. well i think 12 dice is alot better then 10 as it means i get another spell cast. Typically where i play people ether go scroll caddy or bare min of 10 pd.

Harwammer
13-01-2009, 14:57
hmm, fair enough then! I stand by my point that only 2 high strength units may not be enough in an army orientated around combat.

Here is another point: have you considered giving the wargor an xhw instead of GW?

I know a GW performs better, but in an extended combat the wargor will often go first. He will kill a few enemy, which in turn will protect your bestigors from being attacked. While the wargor may score fewer kills in the long run, your bestigor will score more and you will give away less CR!

MarcoPollo
13-01-2009, 17:13
The list is not powergamed at all. The only thing that is my only concern as an opponent is the heavy magic.

To tailor the list a little better, I would use some Dragon Ogres for the strength 7. Minotaurs are good, no question, but having dragon ogres really gives some punch.

Also, using the staff of darkoth is a great idea. But the horn I rarely use. Perhaps I would just use him cheaply.

the comment about the herds going 8 gor 12 ungor is true. It saves alot of points and really you need to have numbers more than toughness. I usually like to have my units at 7 gor 18 ungor.

W0lf
13-01-2009, 17:33
On the subject of Dragon ogres.

Im open to swapping the minos out for them but surely 12 S6 is better then 9 S7. Plus the free undivided roll and banner makes them far better at what they do? no?

The blood hunt horn is a great suprise. Should the Khorngor get the charge on expensive units many will opt to flee their hitting power rather then stand their charge. Blood hunt horn can then have a good chance of ether killing the unit or removing them from the game for another turn. I used to use it on a chaos exalted w/knight in the hordes book and it was always a good suprise.

I dont have the book to hand but would the following be good changes (taking into acount new ideas/thoughts)

Herds
8G/12UG - Box herd

Minos are a contentious issue -> I dont think 3 Dragon ogres are a better deal, but possibly a giant is?

Dropping boths brays for MoT wargors with GW/Shield/HA is a better deal?


Ive also looked at swapping minos for 2 units of centigor, i dont really share the big worry about lack of high strength. My brays will likley run with Beasts lore (lots of spells to cast) so beast cowers can really ruin cavalrys day. With staff of darkoth, possibly unseen lurker, skirmished M5 troops, redirectors and beast cowers i can happily flank cavalry and win due to 2 rank/stand/flank/outnumber.

Another point... to best make use of wolf hunts (currently cant cast it) would the Giant/Centigors be a good idea over minos? Seems a waste to not use a movement spell.

SevenSins
13-01-2009, 19:30
I like the "scheme" here, proving beasts still work (with the proper generalship)
On the dragon ogre issue, they have more than str 7 to go for them, M7 and a 4+ armor save also helps.
Normally not to fond of bestigors, but with MoK they have enough attacks to make it worthwhile.

I'd love to hear how it turns out no matter what you end up choosing

W0lf
14-01-2009, 12:33
well when i start buying the list and stuff ill be sure to get bat reps up.

Harwammer
14-01-2009, 15:02
well when i start buying the list and stuff ill be sure to get bat reps up.

I'll look forward to it!

MarcoPollo
14-01-2009, 16:09
Also the dragon ogres have 4 wounds each. So this can also help. Dragon ogres are nice and always a priority in my Beast lists (and now WoC lists too). Over on the Herdstone, I think the consensus builds for players now are:
a) magic dominant
b) doombull-Minotaur

Ambushing is not a viable tactic as there are alot of flaws that can cause a game plan to go wrong.

Tzeetch wargors are good (don't forget to use the staff of Darkoth with them -- or a doombull of tzeetch for that matter). I don't want to get into the specifics of this argument, but the argument exists out there for it.

Khonregors are good looking models, and the only way I would run them; but the investment in points can go to more ideal set-ups. If you are interested, check out the "herdstone" for much more in depth ideas.

W0lf
14-01-2009, 17:47
Less then 12 power dice simple wont work in my meta game to do the things i want to do... but itd be good to have khorne minos... Its a hard decision lol

I think this list will probably be what i end up with;

Bray shaman
lvl 4, scroll, scroll, staff of darkoth
290pts

Bray
lvl 2, Staff, scroll
141 pts

Wargor
MoT, GW, Shield, HA, Goretooth
165 pts

Wargor
MoK, GW, Chaos armour, shield
111 pts

707

3x Box herd (8G/12UG, fc)
139/417 pts

2x Chariot
MoT
210 pts

17 Bestigor
MoK, FC, Warbanner
304 pts

2x 5 hounds
60 pts

1698 pts.

Then i have to decide what to do with the remaining pts?

Ive got the following options;

Drop a scroll and get a Shaggoth with GW/LA.
Drop a scroll and get 4x DOs with LA/GW
Get another scroll or stone and 2x 6 Centiors with fc.
4 MoS spawn (like the idea lol)
2 units of 3 minotaurs with GWs.

whatcha think?

EDIT: Another option is to drop the wargor of khorne. fill in his place in the bestigor then take 2x 4 minos with GWs?

Papawolf
14-01-2009, 21:18
box herd is 12 gor 8 ungor so 151 pts with fc no shields

I know you don't really rate them lima bean but trolls with their survivability and keeping them in range of the general are truly horrific, if not then defiently the two units of minotaurs

mot wargor gw ha and shield is amazing at 140 pts never failed me (although i only played noobs and waffles really but lets not dwell on that)

make sure you have enough units with ambush so that you can have at least two hers with characters ambushing, you will not always need two units ambushing but it is good to have it just for those situations.

i used spawn occasionally in 6th ed in my HoC army and they were brilliant really annoying to low strength units

never used centigor but it is a very manoeuvrable army anyway so not necessarily needed and with the possibilty that they will get stupid or frenzied they can be a liability

talk more in person so you can prove me wrong ^_^

W0lf
14-01-2009, 21:43
Your right about the box-herds. (Papa wolf is my groups beastmen/gobbo player lol)

Minotaurs seem to be the best option for High strength (aswell as being characterful). Maybe if i get past my 'need' for the khornegor i can run mono-Tzeentch (like ive always done with my mortals).

Hows this as an idea;

Beastlord
MoT, Staff of Darkoth, Chaos armour, Crown of horns,
300pts.

Wargor
MoT, GW, Shield, HA, Gore tooth
165 pts

Bray shaman
Lvl 2, 2x scroll, braystaff
166 pts

3X Combat herds
12 Gor
8 Ungor
FC
151/453 pts

2x Ambush herds
5 Gor w/Foe render
5 ungor
75/150 pts

3x Tuskgor chariots
255 pts

3x 5 hounds
90 pts

2x 4 Minotaurs
MoT, Great weapons
204/408 pts


Whatcha think? better/worse?

Papawolf
14-01-2009, 22:23
yh i like it, i always prefer monogod and i love tzeentch beasts

good amount of magic

good hitting power

11 ambushing units so 5 units (including characters) can ambush so if you really need combat soon the ambush herds and hounds can be table quarters and flankers and you can get some big units in combat early in game

i like it, the other list might work slightly better, more hitting power but i would need to see them in game first, maybe Wednesday night proxy games need to return

looking forward to it lima bean

W0lf
14-01-2009, 23:03
Not enjoying the lima bean comment! wheres that come from?

(its Lee-ma not lie-ma, that ofc being my second name).

You think the other list works better? hmmm.

We definatly need to see wedsnesday nights proxies return! I miss fielding everything and anything lol.

MarcoPollo
15-01-2009, 15:56
The 2nd list is better. I like your character selection much better. In my opinion, khornegors perform at a C+ level while Minotaurs perform at a B+. The problem that khornegors have is their price. That is alot to pay for ranks. If you want ranks, then just use MoU. If you want killing power use MoK and keep the unit small (the warbanner is a nice touch here). But if you want killing power go with minotaurs MoK instead. They do a better job in this role.

Might I suggest a doombull of tzeetch with Staff of Darkoth. The staff is a "weapon" so can be used by the doombull (even though it exists in the arcane section).

After some play testing you will probably come to see that herds don't need 12 gors and 8 ungors. And if you like lists with "everything and anything" you will need to save points here and there. So when you are buying, buy extra ungors on ebay or "chaos orc" websites that will help you fill out the ranks.

Harwammer
15-01-2009, 16:08
Might I suggest a doombull of tzeetch with Staff of Darkoth. The staff is a "weapon" so can be used by the doombull (even though it exists in the arcane section).



Seconded, it is a 'magic weapon from the magic item list', thus is a legitimate option for the doombull despite it not being a Magic Weapon. Some may disagree.

Gramolarian
15-01-2009, 16:09
second list is good but chance places with goretooth and staff of darkoth. I´ve found out that ability to move a herd is much more stronger if used from ambush than from your own table side. Dark heart and goretooth for general and thats it. Hatred with great weapon is good combination and you can get the advantage of over running with your more important part ... ambushers.
Marco Doombull cannot take staff of darkoth cause its arcane item rather than magic weapon.

W0lf
15-01-2009, 19:43
Might I suggest a doombull of tzeetch with Staff of Darkoth. The staff is a "weapon" so can be used by the doombull (even though it exists in the arcane section).

If i took a doombull i think slaughterer's blade would be my prefered option. Oh and doombull cant ambush so its a sad no from me (dont care if ambush isnt amazing its fun/cool/unique)

Id like to run a doombull but -2 lvls and no ambush makes it a no. Shame as i like him :/

So second list is getting better feedback.. thats nice.

Id agree 8 Gor, 12 Ungor is better.. where could i buy ungor from though? :(

Khaos
15-01-2009, 21:04
Marco Doombull cannot take staff of darkoth cause its arcane item rather than magic weapon.

once you give your doombull(or any beasts character) the MoT it becomes a wizard and can therefore use arcane items and other things that are "wizard/caster only". you can also give a braystaff to normal heroes after you give them the MoT.

Papawolf
15-01-2009, 21:44
i am not sure about the staff thing, i think it is pushing it a bit far but even so i would much prefer to have the beastlord

i like the list so go for it basically

we shall sort out some games i wanna try out a dark elf list i wrote

just dont paint them blue

what kinda person would paint things blue that aren't sposda be blue?

W0lf
15-01-2009, 22:24
yeah like say... smurf goblins? ;)

Oh God.. Dark elves are ganna tear my list a new hole lmao... So this is what it feels to be a beasts player...

Im currently terrified of;

Daemons
Vampires
Wood elves
High elves
Dark elves
Chaos Knight armies

Thats looking like a pretty big list lol. well i did say i wanted a challenge :D

WhiteKnight
16-01-2009, 00:08
Alright, the only army that will destroy you are daemons. Elves are T 3 so you're wounding on 3's or 2's most of the time. Vampires aren't scary wit MoK. Their 10 pd will match against you're 10+ DD. Then in combat, utterly destroy them with khorngors and minotaurs.

W0lf
16-01-2009, 00:33
Go look at the updated list.

And T3 elves dosnt cut it when they are ASF or contain hydras. Oh and then theirs Dryads and wardancesand treemen oh dear...

As fr vamps.. assuming i pass fear i can't actually break them and i dont fancy my chances of wargor/beastlord vs vamp characters...

Harwammer
16-01-2009, 00:36
yeah like say... smurf goblins? ;)

Oh God.. Dark elves are ganna tear my list a new hole lmao... So this is what it feels to be a beasts player...

Im currently terrified of;

Daemons
Vampires
Wood elves
High elves
Dark elves
Chaos Knight armies

Thats looking like a pretty big list lol. well i did say i wanted a challenge :D

Haha, high elves are terrible!

You can't hurt them from range due to lack of shooting / their magic defence, you can't hurt them in combat because of ASF and your complete lack of armour means you die before you attack! You can't even beat them on CR because most of your units are on 3 base CR.

They out shoot, they out fight and they out magic you. The only thing you can do better is run away. And that is on the condition they don't bring dragons, cav or eagles! Well, you can outnumber them, but that just means they have more targets to slaughter :)

Nurgle minotaurs are the way to go against high elves; spare wounds and 4+ armour so you can survive some of their attacks and fear to break them when you manage to whittle them down. Nurgle is good against VC/DoC too because you can make your herds immune to fear.

Edit: too much doom and gloom... I meant to say:

Go W0lf! Go beasts! Wooo!

W0lf
16-01-2009, 14:43
Far more scared of Vampires and dark elves tbh.

High elf shooting is epensive and not all that effective due to skimished army and i have multiple ways to neutralise it. Their magic is also rather expensive so likely no more PD/DD then i have anyway. Sure its an uphill battle but im pretty confident that with some skilled play i can beat them.

Dark elves scare me more as they have better shooting (shades/RXB) and ASF black guard are going to be a huge problem. Oh and fighting 2x hydra (everyone i know exept me fields that) is nigh on impossible to do.

Vampires will just be hell. At best ill charge them and win... then drawn out combats where they replace lost wounds.. one bad round of rolling and im dead. Having done nothing.

We will see ^^

So anything else that needs looking at? I have to say the thought of playing beasts makes me appreciate my other armies more... geez i though warriors had it bad ^^

Peril
16-01-2009, 16:34
Khorne Beasts will handle Vamps enough.
You don't have to take 20 chariots, but if you want to pound some ASF Elves that is how you do it.
Chaos Knights are lousy when you hit them in the flank. This is not hard to do with Beasts.
Dark Elves are going to be difficult with their Terror causing monsters. Hydras are going to sting alot. My best suggestion is to hit them with Khorne Minos. Are there any flaming attack magic weapons? Beasts no longer have access to the Hellfire blade huh. In any event, I really think these guys will be the toughest for you.

W0lf
17-01-2009, 11:27
im not playing akhorne beasts list though an list tailoring is 'low' imo.

Harwammer
17-01-2009, 17:16
I agree, tailoring your list for a specific opponent is low, but you do want to ensure you have tools for the problems you commonly face in your enviroment.

Are you pretty much finalised on your list now?

Which armies do you think you'll be facing most? I'm excited at the prospect of battle reports.

Heafstaag
17-01-2009, 21:30
My friend plays beasts, and he has had a lot of success with a BSB with the banner that gives poisoned attacks to a big herd. Its always mean in combat.

Harwammer
01-02-2009, 19:30
So, did you prove a point, 'power gamer'?
:D