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Dragon Prince of Caledor
13-01-2009, 00:43
I was at my local gw the other day and started a game against a vet. I am reasonably good but in the grand scheme of things im not great. I built a list with the models i had painted and was far from "competitive." After trying to build a list modelled after the vets competitive lists I came to the realization that I dont like that style of build. The 1200 victory point unit. and the juiced up lords and literally like 4 units. I dont like it! I came up with a list to fight almost anything the other day. It was all fighting I will post it later I dont want to go dig it out :) As anyone knows a list with either all fighting, all shooting, or all magic is the most effective. Mine is all fighting and sufficiently magic. My list is cavalry and elites. I will post tomorrow im not feeling well... :) What are your thoughts on this type of list?

I am also going to ask what coneheads should do against Vampire Counts. I had never fought them but even though the game was cut short it was evident I was going to get creamed as I have never played them. I think drain magic will be dandy by not allowing him to cast spells on one dice and saving my dispel efforts. He himself (he was kind enough to walk me through a lot of it) He said that anything that causes a LOT OF WOUNDS would be effective so long as i can prevent the summoning of reinforcements (drain magic) will lead to the salvation of my dignity against the vet. I think swordmasters and dragon princes will be the most effective for this whilst the white lions hit hard and are rock hard whilst the phoenix guard are good for surviving and not dying. Phoenix guard will be the equivalent to swordmasters vs. the zombie horde. any thoughts on both of my topics?

Sifal
13-01-2009, 01:26
you need lots of combat res against vampire counts. in general i'd recommend units that cause lots of wounds such as swordmasters in small units supporting rank and file spearmen. chariots are great at going against small units of black knights etc with the superior charge range. The absolute best tactic for any army goig against vamps though is of course kill the general. try a refused flank with punchy high static CR stuff with something to kill the vamp general.

W0lf
13-01-2009, 01:39
Against vamps all you need isa way of killing the characters.

Ohand the best lists over-specialise in 2 phases.Not 1.

aimbob
13-01-2009, 12:35
Ohand the best lists over-specialise in 2 phases.Not 1.

Explain...

Dragon Prince of Caledor
13-01-2009, 12:58
What wolf means is that instead of having a round shooting,fighting, magic and I will say other type of army is that having an army with two phases of the game in their court hands down. My list is very good at fighting with swordmasters, dragon princes, white lions, and silver helms, a fighty lord that wont die as well as having two level two mages with some extra power dice, a bound spell, and a banner of sorcery giving dominance in both phases as opposed to just fighting or just magic which was my initial impression. I agree that two are better than 1 as previously listed. An all fighting high elf list could be mowed down by an army loaded with magic missiles granted I had no magic defense.

The guy i "played" said that drain magic was a killer for him because he casts as many spells as possible on one dice to try to drain dispel dice. All of those spells would now require two dice effectively cutting his casting power in half. This also increases the likelihood of him miscasting! :)

Sifal
13-01-2009, 13:26
I've got to say that statistically it is better to cast a 4+ spell on 2 dice than on one. if the VC player only uses one dice each time then he's got a 50% chance of casting it and the opposing player would need a lower roll to dispel that attempt. if the VC player uses two dice every time then they have a greatly increased chance of successful casting and will produce a spell that is harder to dispel. so.... for every 2 dice that are used for invocation of nehek one succesful spell will be cast but one with much higher casting value. obviously if they have lord of dead or whatever so they get +1 to casting for that unit type then this changes a bit. On a different note I don't think two level two mages with extra shiny bits is dominant in the magic phase against stuff that is actually very magicky. lots of VC armies put out 12+ power dice and 3 bound spells and as an example... Lord Croak can potentially roll 22+ dice in one turn. THAT is magic dominance.
Finally, no-one has mentioned the fourth (or first) phase; movement. With Dragon princes, silverhelms swordmasters etc I'd say that you're strong in movement in fighting and hold your own in magic.

Shamfrit
13-01-2009, 13:49
To shoot effectively, you need movement to divert things from getting to your missile troops, because once that happens, you're done for.

To cast effectively you need strong bodies to mop up whatever remains from your offensive magic, so 1-3 quick, good, reliable combat units are also needed.

To move effectively you need to polarise your movement with one of the other three phases, Magic + Shooting, Movement + Combat, Combat + Shooting etc.

Personally, that 1200 bunker unit is 1200 points straight into the bank should you concentrate efficiently; High Elvers and Warriors or Brettonnians with a few well placed characters, or something to remove unit champions then lock the Lord into combat should see you set nicely.

Or kill the other units and avoid the M4 Graveguard, that's a fun way to deal with it. You've still got 800 other points to gain, and the odd banner, if you take little casulties in return you'll still get a minor victory!

W0lf
13-01-2009, 15:45
Its worth noting that Numbers and Movement are both included in over-scecialising.

Both have inherint advantages same as magic/combat/shooting.