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Darkspear
13-01-2009, 07:34
Hi all,

After reading a few threads over the past few weeks, I notice that there is a lot of Dark Elf thrashing going around here. People are complaining of its overpowered-ness. Being a regular Dark player, it is rather difficult for me to make a judgement especially since I have problems arranging a game against other druchii players.

So my question is a simple one. What is wrong with Dark Elves that make people think they are cheesy.

For everyone's info, I agree that the army is a lot better now. More synergy and lack of lousy units (my win ratio also improved greatly). However I have yet to see a Druchii combination that is unbeatable yet.

I have some comments on specific druchii lists though.

1) I understand that there are some crazy builds such as the Shades-deathstar. However I feel that an extreme list such as this should be taken out of the equation. In my experience such lame lists only appear when a gaming group allow the use of proxies and/or unpainted models. If you really want to field 48 shades...get them painted!!!

2) The Druchii Dragon. I feel that the dragon (not just the DE dragon) is one of the most overpowered things in the game of warhammer. This is because some armies, such as beastmen, have no efficient tools to take it out. And to my disappointment, dragon lists are appeared like mushrooms since the dark elf book appeared. (New book --> more new DE players --> more cheesy players --> more dragon lists appear in warseer and D.net). In my opinion, taking a dragon indicates a lack of skill and simply just choosing the easiest way out. It is not just a DE problem, it also happen with high elves and I began to see it with Chaos.

Based on 1) and 2), I hope forum members could leave out deathstar lists and dragon lists from your discussion. Thanks,

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 07:50
Isolated from each other, most factors in the new DEAB could be overlooked, it's the combination that makes it really hard to deal with.

The Pendant gives a reverse ward - fair enough. Unless you have a high AS, which case the requirement for overcoming the high AS is a liability against a reverse ward.

The Ring of Hotek that makes any double miscast. Lack of a lore that allows lots of low casting value spells. Any spell powerful enough to punch through dispel dice is likely to become automatically miscast.

Hatred is alright. Hatred, ASF and hatred on mounts is a little too much.

TroyJPerez
13-01-2009, 08:39
I hate to sound negative about the Dark Elf book, but whenever someone cries cheese over my Warriors of Chaos I tell them to go look at the Dark Elf book. Their magic items are amazing compared to ours. And hatred! Why can't Khorne have hatred! I guess he doesn't care about anything he kills enough to hate it, lol.

bork da basher
13-01-2009, 08:53
cheese over chaos warriors? chaos warriors is one of the most balanced army books GW have made in a long time. they have some good combos, but no more than anyone else does. dark elves. VC and demons just seem to have the default power builds which have earned them their cheese crown. frankly i dont much care, i so rarely get a chance to play i'll happily take on any army. better than no game at all.

Neckutter
13-01-2009, 09:05
the DE dragon is overpowered only because of hatred.
the HE dragon is fine, even though it is the biggest dragon( 7 wounds is pretty gross)
the VC dragon is a joke
the empire dragon is superbly overpowered because it doesnt count as a hero choice.
chaos dragon, WE dragon = blah

the DE hatred rule affecting mount is gross because it means that the dragon's 5 attacks will most likely result in 4 hits, and 4 wounds. this means most 20 block infantry will lose to a dragon+rider unless fighting another hero or lord level character. basically it is the return of herohammer.

on the upswing, now there is something that can kill a thirster in HtH

Mireadur
13-01-2009, 09:49
Im somehow surprised it took so long to reach the consensus about DE being overpowered.

To put it simple, the book is great. But every single unit, model and item in it are severely underpriced. If at 2000 points, you decided to punctuate a DE army accordingly with the rest of the books, you'd find something in the 2200+mark.

The 2nd problem, and i believe the one with people is more concerned with, is the magic items that were given to them. It is not a question anymore about these items being underpointed, it is that many of them just shouldnt exist because of the possible combinations they allow.

But dont worry, you have not been left alone in the desert. You can still play under the same conditions agaisnt the other 7th ed Thorpe's army.

P.S: ok i admit there may be a 3rd problem: hatred affecting mounts.

Draconian77
13-01-2009, 11:58
This is madness...

Disclaimer: Long term Druchii player about to rant.

First of all the Druchii items are not broken in any way shape or form. The Ring of Hotek and the Pendant are undercosted but not broken. The rest of the item list is so much "yawn" that its barely worth looking twice at. Hydras Teeth? Crystal of Midnight? Black Dragon Egg? Black Amulet? Shield of Ghrond? Executioners Axe? Banner of Cold Blood?

Most Druchii players choose from the same dozen magic items over and over again because everything else is pointless. We don't even have a Bound Spell Magic Missile or something in our Arcane Items.

Secondly, where and when did all units in the DE book become undercosted?

100pts for a Cold One Chariot? That sounds about right to me.
100pts for a Reaper is a tad expensive if you ask me, especially compared to Dwarf Bolt Throwers.
12pts for an Executioner? They aren't worth 12pts.
10pts for a Corsair? Again, hardly/never really worth it.

The Hydra is too cheap, thats about it.
Black Guard are much cheaper than they used to be but they have plenty of weaknesses to exploit.

This whole DE = Cheese thing is really beginning to get on my nerves.
They don't spam powerdice, they don't get mage/casters who can heal themselves, they actually do run away when beaten and they are mostly frail models. Added to that they could be said to be one of the more unpredictable armies with the large amounts of Frenzy and Stupidity that they can bring to a game.

I am not saying that DE suck or that your a bad player if you don't win against them, I am just saying that after years of having a sub-par book(to put it mildly) its nice to have a few things that actually scare my opponents on the other side of the board!

/rant

Conotor
13-01-2009, 12:01
RBTs. They rip up any expencive unit absurdly quickly.

Ward.
13-01-2009, 12:07
The Hydra is too cheap, that's about it.


You forgot warriors, the basic dark elf infantry just shouldn't be that cheap.


Dark elves are definitely 3rd on the power scale as of right now but I think most of the cries of cheese come from daemon players that have built armies to handle everything else.

Edonil
13-01-2009, 12:09
The Dark Elf book isn't cheesy- powerful, oh yes. Will agree with that entirely. But, it's par for the course of 7th edition post-High Elves. It's not in the same ranks as daemons (we got bored with winning and tried to lose, but still won- anyone else feel this is wrong?!) or Vampire Counts (lots of extremely insane builds in there), but it is powerful.

Draconian77
13-01-2009, 12:21
You forgot warriors, the basic dark elf infantry just shouldn't be that cheap.


Dark elves are definitely 3rd on the power scale as of right now but I think most of the cries of cheese come from daemon players that have built armies to handle everything else.


While DE Warriors are incredibly cheap is this really such a problem? It's not like anyone ever uses them as Skaven Slaves because their cheap but not that cheap...

It's not like they will beat heavily armoured or high toughness foes either.
They even run/panic/fail Fear/Terror tests etc a reasonable amount of the time.

Very good for adding SCR and they work out quite well against similar models(T3 4+ saves) but again I just can't see any 1A S3 infantry unit being too good.

Besides(In my opinion) this probably wouldn't have been such a problem in the first place if GW had designed Corsairs and/or Executioners better. The internal balance of the book is just way off. Warriors trump Corsairs and Black Guard trump Executioners and surely this became obvious during playtesting?
Many DE lists are going to include these two units because(Again I find myself saying...) the alternatives are just not worth it.

Its called Silverhelm syndrome apperantly. :)

[EDIT] Reapers rip up any unit that expose their flanks absurdly quickly, any unit of T4+ models or 1+ Knights are quite a different story.
Even then surely 2 Dwarf Bolt Throwers would be better in almost all situations? Less likely that they both get disabled, more and tougher crew, can be placed in different places to get better shots, etc, etc.

Darkspear
13-01-2009, 12:25
From what I read so far, the main problem with Dark Elves is SYNERGY. There is so much synergy among units and combos that it makes the army so much better than its peers. I admit that with powerful rxb shooting and fast units, it makes it extremely easy for the dark elven player to focus his army's entire strength to break a point in the enemy defenses then quickly disperse and repeat the process again. Something that can only be done with difficulty in the 6th ed list (in the 6th ed list, u can throw most of your hardhitters against 1 enemy unit and still lose.... :) )

theunwantedbeing
13-01-2009, 12:29
The pendant makes the wearer unkillable (mainly as your opponent is only going to attack them with st5+ things as that should work, and then they'll stubbornly refuse to be wrong).

The ring just means you cant cast spells at them as nobody can cast a spell hat doesnt inlcude a double, except for dark elves of course. They are incapable of rolling a double ever so are never affected by the ring.

The hydra. VC players are just complaining that our monster is now tougher than their vargulf.
ws5 5 attack hatred...mv8
ws4 7 attack hatred...mv6
Its comparable to the vargulf quite easily (remember the vargulf lets things march nearby and wounds can be regained easily which offsets the handlers and accompanying rules).

Plus people dont like it when it breathes st5 fire on them. And as it has regen cannons dont work (regen always stops cannonballs...always), and everyone uses orcs and as we all know, orcs dont have anything that causes flaming hits so they can never get past its 1+ regen save ever.
Not to mention it's a large target so you have a helluva time screening it, unlike the vargulf which can be easily screened by anything.
The armour save? Thats a hindrance vs the lore of metal, something you'll often take vs dark elves to remove the guy with the ring of hotek.
It's one of the few properly good large monsters and eveyrone yells cheese at it.


6pt DE warriors?
Its 7pts with a sheild...although nobody ever includes equiptment cost when they complain.
4pt marauders!!!!!unfair.....(although 6pts with stuff usually)

Plus people have an issue with the ASF banner.
Apparently a dark elf stirking before a high elf is now wrong....and ASF + hatred is unfair (although shadow warriors have had it ages now and nobody complains about them).

Usually it'll be some combo that people have the biggets issue with.
eg. couldren giving cold one knights 2 attacks each, with hatred and the banner to give them ASF!!!
cold one knight are only 28pts each but are way better than eveyrone else (see how te points cost of the basic knight was used and everything else was ignored?)

The DE list isnt abusive at all really.
The biggest problem is that its what the old list should have been.
So we DE players got used to the old terrible list and got good with it.
So now we get an actually decent list thats an improvement on the old list and we're now far more capable of winning than we were before.

Arguleon-veq
13-01-2009, 12:53
I think some if the problems with the list are;

Hydras being very powerful for their points cost. The comparison with the Varghulf neglected the breath weapon, the 6 extra armour piercing hatred attacks, the 4+ armour. The fact that the Varghulf only has 5 attacks, so can only, at best, draw with a fully ranked up unit, means that its Undead rules are quite a pain for it as it will start losing wounds from the first round of combat thanks to static res. Where as the Hydra should get about 6/7 kills and breaks a whole lot of units on the charge. The Hydra is better, I dont care about a Varghulf when it is placed down against me, I do when its a Hydra.

Black Guard with ASF have weaknesses? the only real weakness I see is that you can shoot them quite easily. Which is easily stopped thanks to having cheap warriors to screen them with, or even Corsairs with their nice saves vs shooting.

BS 5, 2 Shot, Armour Piercing Skirmishers with Hatred and Great Weapons at WS5?.

Fast Cav core that happen to be probably the best fast cav in the game.

Assassins for every unit rather than as hero choices. The chance to almost completely nullify any serious enemy magic.

ASF Banner, +D3 Res banner, both for only 35 points.

I do think an aweful lot comes down to points costs.

I dont think DE are a really beardy army but simply putting a pair of Hydras in at 2000 points makes for a decent list.

They are 1 of the top 3 armies now in terms of power no matter which way you cut it. That in itself shows they are pretty capable of being a beardy army.

I personally like playing against Dark Elves but I do see were people using anything besides one of those top 3 armies would find them a bit much/hard to deal with.

GuyLeCheval
13-01-2009, 13:02
I think this cheese complaining come from people like me who play with aged armies i.e.: Skaven, TK, BoC, brett (although Bretts are usually capable to handle most powercreep armies :D)

With armies like this, there is just nothing to do against the cheesy combo's available, for example:

"We are the most powerful army in the world, yes yes?" said warlord Snitchit.

"Well, techniqually are the DE and WoC better."

"Why?"

"Because the WoC player can field more Ws4 mauraders in his army than we can field Ws3 run-away clanrats."

"And the DE?"

"They can field almost as most warriors as we can field clanrats. Like Naggoronth is that full of DE...
They got an hydra who can charge our flanks with crazy 4A S7 Hatred and they have an item were your strenght becomes their Ward save."

"I don't care. I got the Fellblade. They've killed Nagash with it, right (...). If such a necromancer can't handle this blade, a stinky DE lord can't also, can he?"

So warlord Snitchit marched towards the hydra, who was charging their flank, and ripped him to shreds.

"Ah, there is their puny-humy cold-one-riding-lord."

An imposant figure with a lance, and a radiating talisman marched towards Snitchit.

Snitchit yelled the challenge, the lord accepted. Snitched swung the fellblade four times, and four times it was deflected because of the über ward save of the lord. Then Snitchit was pierced by the lord's lance.

...

Sifal
13-01-2009, 13:09
I have no problem with the DE army book. I'm happy to play against strong builds so long as there is at least one rank and file unit. it is a bit annoying facing a dragon, a manticore and just dark riders.
The reverse ward save is a fantastic magic item but if it were available to the armies of those who are complaining about it now they wouldn't be complaining anymore. Also, if a dark elf lord has 2+ save, reverse ward save (and often the +2 str crimson blade) they are very hard to kill but they aren't exactly a tour de force of destruction either. in game terms he isn't a game winner and often wont even make his points back. and he is very killable if you hit him with stuff that causes multiple wounds (a 2+ ward can still fail), lots of attacks (salamanders for example) are only str 3 but have a -3 save modifier so the lord has T3, 5+ save and 5+ ward ( i think). Also magic attacks that are low strength and don't allow armour saves, killing blow, poisoned attacks, tarpits or breaking him in combat and running him down all work great.
Finally, although hydras are good they are not broken but they definately are undercosted. The unwanted being, you pointed out some comparisons between hydra and varghulf but failed to point out the hydras armour save, effectivness of breath weapon, toughness ( i think it's 6), handlers rules meaning they don't go into combat and most importantly its unit str is greater than 5.

==Me==
13-01-2009, 13:22
Sour grapes

Shamfrit
13-01-2009, 13:28
The synergy in the Dark Elf list is the only thing that makes it not sub-par, it is the ability to create synergetic lists, with each core component working beautifully together that makes it as strong as it currently is, or is perceived to be.

Look at 6th Edition...how small were those armies? I regularily came up against 6-7 deployment choice armies, against 13+ for Skaven and a good 10 or so for other armies; so the points cost is only relative to allow Dark Elves to feasably field an army that can actually do some damage.

The Warriors usually only come in a single block of 25 with full command an assassin, and that's only because of a Sorceress and the Sacrifical Dagger. The comparison to Marauders and Clanrats is amusing, because the other factors arn't being counted, that is to say, the army rules that makes Clanrats LD8 on their own steam (same as a Dark Elf) and LD10 in most lists, so they're a point cheaper, come accompanied with a 20 strong cannon fodder unit and a rapid fire armour piercing gatling gun, for what, 40 points more?

Yeah, Warriors are totally better than Clanrats...

And 2 Attack STR5 Marauders, do more damage consistantly than a Dark Elf Warrior, for one point per model cheaper.

The only power Warriors really have is in MSU lists, were a unit of 10 is 60 points barebones.

And as for assassins in every unit? They're 90 points minimum, I've yet to see more than 2 in a list, and that was due to the opponent only using one character, his general!

I've run out of steam now...

So I'll add 'I agree with unwanted' and be done.

Kerill
13-01-2009, 13:30
The pity for dark elf players who spent years in the 6th edition wilderness allowed the DE to initially avoid the calls of brokenness and cheese that their army undoubtedly includes. Claims of "its a finesse army" and "DE players are just more skilful". Now its finally come out that indeed DE are overpowered in the same way as VC and Daemons. Why?
Hydras- at 250 points these would still be a viable choice- really an excessively useful choice. Varghulfs are good for their points, hydra are insanely good since they can happily rout a unit comfortably from the front with their attacks, something which even a bloodthirster can't do if the unit has a champion.
Shades getting BS5 and weapon options- still not the biggest problem and DE should have some good stuff
Harpies as unlimited core- unlimited fliers is never a wise option to give an army, this seems to be country dependant though since apparently in some places 5/6 units is common.
Assassins rules have a few problems, excessive power of the throwing stars is the only dodgy thing I think, if counting character slots they would never be seen again, which would be a pity.

So while it certainly wouldn't be fair to take all the DE cool things or toys away, hydras really need to be fixed.

But the two main reasons why they are broken apart from hydras?:
Pendant of Khaeleth- this item is not undercosted, it is actually broken
Ring of Hotek- this item as it stands is also broken (not undercosted, broken)

I've noticed the idea of "suicide elves" about lately where a DE player saves points by simply have the ring of hotek for magical defence (the best defence in the game) so they have more points for troops and then claims that they are especially skillful because of it. Hmmm.

Neknoh
13-01-2009, 13:30
I would say Arquelon was quite correct in his analysis, however, there is one thing we're missing with the 7 point Dark Elf Warriors.

Whenever a large unit of Dark Elf Warriors is taken in competitive environments, it is often the third core choice (accompanied with two small units that are only there for screening), and the unit is large.

It is large because a Dark Elf Warrior is not a 7 point ws4 s3 4+ save model, it is a 7 point powerdice when combined with the dagger.

Darkspear
13-01-2009, 13:35
One think to note about Blackguard. Although they are virtually unbreakable, they do have problems against some units namely chaos warriors or ironbreakers. If someone throws their greatswords or highelven spears into a unit of blackguard, they deserve to lose.

Regarding suicide elves: I do not find it powerful. A friend of mine took it and resulted in sub par performances (and my friend is one of the best gamers in the country). The idea is cool but I rather streamline it to form an msu. Why do I take 20 executioners with ASF BSB when I, combined with some care and skill, can deliver as much pain with just 7 or 8?

Emissary
13-01-2009, 13:47
I'm curious. At what point do the dark elves become broken? When did the daemons and the vampire counts pass that point yet the dark elves not reach it? What it feels like is that the dark elves built up a lot of good will/pity from the last book which has either acted as a excuse or reason for the problems they have for balance in the current incarnation.

As for the problems, I think people have touched on them. An army based around speed and hitting power, that's supposed to lack toughness, yet has the toughest generic character build in the game, a ring you can stick on unit champions that shuts down any offensive magic, a monster that is extremely overpowered... We've all heard it before.

What I do know is that our store had a WFB tourney this weekend and over 20 people showed up. The top army was once again a daemon army and then 2-4 were all dark elf armies (with 5 hydras and 2 dragons between them.) There were a lot of good players at the tourney and the general consensus is that the vampire counts, daemon and dark elf books are all big mistakes and that GW really needs to get off the RAW kick they're on and fix these problems. I know that my interest in WFB has taken a giant hit in the last year because of these three books.

Draconian77
13-01-2009, 13:53
The Dagger, the Dagger, its all I ever hear... The Dagger is a double edged sword. Ignoring the fact that it kills your own(rather cheap) models it sticks a roughly 190pt character into a roughly 150pt unit that will die if charged by nearly anything. After playing this game for years now I am a firm believer that no exclusive magic user should just be sitting inside a unit of block infantry.

Hydras cannot happily route many units from the front. Hydras can happily route many T3 low save units from the front. As soon as you get to T4 or 2+/1+ saves the Hydra once again requires flank charges to come out on top.

A few more points if I may.

Shades with Great Weapons for 18pts are ok, not great, just ok. S3 multi-shot weapons will never really inflict serious damage.

Blackguard. The very fact that they need to be screened says a lot about this unit. But more than that its a unit of infantry with Hatred. I mean people have been hating on infantry for years now(Due to the fact that they rarely see combat) but suddenly their broken...

Assassins are very expensive and easy to kill.

ASF banner is great, but its probably the only good banner in the book.
The D3 CR banner is so-so. I would rather pay the extra 15pts to get the DoC banner that adds it all the time. Added to this only BG and CoK's can even select these banners. (Yet another internal balancing error IMO, why can't Witch Elves and Executioners take them?)


Hydras at 250pts would not be taken. Its not as hard to kill or as dangerous as people make it out to be. It does seem to make people do all sorts of weird things though. I have seen Chaos Warriors+Exalted move backwards because of it...they would easily have beaten it in combat had they given it a go.

The Pendant is not broken because A)Its avoidable and B)The Dreadlords damage output is quite low. Undercosted definately.

The Ring is not broken because it does force the DE to play without magical support, something which both DE and HE have liked to rely upon for a long amount of time. In fact I actually think having an item that provides (Real)magical protection without having to spend 150pts on a absurdly overcosted scroll caddy.

The Ring of Hotek is by no means the "best defense in the game." as far as I'm concernced. High amounts of dispel dice(6+) + 1-2 scrolls is more than enough in most cases and will limit the amount of damage any army can receive from magic. The Ring is not a certain thing, doesn't really help vs OG, TK or Vampires(Not to mention armies that forgo magic to concentrate on other phases of the game) and is easy enough to get rid off. Just get stuck in and squish that Elf Noble. After all, he can't possibly be wearing the Pendant aswell.

Mireadur
13-01-2009, 13:58
(although shadow warriors have had it ages now and nobody complains about them).

im surprised theunwantedbeing posts this...


In all seriousness who would complain by a unit of skirmishers with 1 S3 attack each because they would hate and ASF anything? they tend to lose even to detachments, be it only because modifiers and CR. In fact shadow warriors are a very bad unit man... Just try them some games paying 16pt a pop for a guy with BS4.


I never heard anyone complaining about DE spearmen with ASF but because of BG with it.. ASF would equal to 1,5points per model in a 20man unit (not counting giving it freely to any character you attached to the unit), definitely out of place when adding up to the already crazy ruling for BG.

Anyway its a pointless debate we've got here =)

Draconian77
13-01-2009, 14:07
Good point, I'm going to stop now posting now before this escalates into another thread filled with nothing but circular logic and theory hammer.

Although I will say that it depresses me greatly that I actually want a new DE book as soon as the latest one is released. They(GW) have obviously made some huge errors of judgement. Some favour the DE and some don't but overall it detracts from the quality of the book.

The Red Scourge
13-01-2009, 14:07
The hydras toughness is only 5 – but it still is a nasty bit of nastiness :)

DE is a great list and fun to fight, but in no way do I find it broken. There are some cost issues here and there, and the shade death star sounds wicked – and like others of its kind, rather boring.

It has great and varied troop options – with some 'silver helm syndrome' - but they are still just T3 elves.

The hating mounts are rather silly – and has been laughed about since warrior priest mounted a horse – especially when it affects monsters.

The Ring of Hotek is great, as it encourages to make lists not focused on just rolling power dies.

The Pendant was a fun, but poorly thought out idea.

ASF, cauldron blessed troops are a problem – so start by taking out the cauldron.

But all in all, these are nothing compared to demons.

Emissary
13-01-2009, 14:12
For me the problem with the DE isn't like the Daemon book. The DE have a few very specific problems that are affecting the army overall. Modify or delete the two magic items, remove hatred from the dragon and tone down the hydra and I think a lot of the problems will be significantly diminished.

The SkaerKrow
13-01-2009, 14:41
The only problems with the Dark Elf book are a couple of magic item combinations. It's not a fundamentally overpowered book in any way. I think a lot of players are just suffering from a bit of culture shock, since their easy wins are no longer coming from the Druchii. Dragons have always been exceptionally potent, as have Treeman quality monsters when taken in pairs. This isn't unique to Dark Elves, this is an ever-present issue with Warhammer.

EndlessBug
13-01-2009, 14:48
Dark elves are far from a 'broken' army. Certainly they are very strong now and yes the Pendant of Khaeleth is broken/undercosted.

the ring of hotek however isn't really, if you're relying on it then you're basically taking a huge risk against 3/4 of the armies out there, what happens when that killer spell isn't a double? Pleanty of armies are unaffected by it; Dwarfs, Ogres, Vamps (mostly), Tomb Kings, also what about those low magic armies? other armies that just take that 1 scroll caddy? they aren't affected by it at all either. So now we have about 1/4 of the armies are unaffected then probably 1/3 to 1/2 the rest of the builds being relatively untouched as well. Furthermore if you really do want magic protection then you'll need a caddy on top so DEs are now paying 150 points for that extra magic protection, most armies only pay 130 ish for the same scroll caddy, do you see Dark Elves complaining that we have to pay extra for the same thing everyone else gets?

Hydras - bumping them to 200 points per Hydra would be fair, yes they're strong but you knock a couple of wounds off from shooting/magic and they will now start to get very worried about getting in combat with any character or decent armour save/hard hitting unit.

Black Guard? Swordmasters are a lot more killy, sure not Immune to Psy and stubborn but they are strength 5 ASF, plus they have that space for a different banner (world dragon? MR 2? immune fear/terror?). What was everyones solution to them? SHOOT! well guess what sunshine, same applies to BG.

RxBs are very decent now but not breaking.

Warriors could probably be 1 point more and corsairs 1 point less but hey, they aren't really that great anyway so get over it.

W0lf
13-01-2009, 14:52
Nearly everything in the book is undercosted and they can be built to doi nearly anything well.

Its very easy to write a list that can dominate 2 or more phases.

The SkaerKrow
13-01-2009, 15:06
Nearly everything in the book is undercostedFull stop. I'll give you the Pendant. If I'm feeling charitable, I'll give you the Hydra (though that's really pushing it). Nothing else in the list is undercosted in the slightest. Two things =/= the whole book.

Emissary
13-01-2009, 15:08
the ring of hotek however isn't really, if you're relying on it then you're basically taking a huge risk against 3/4 of the armies out there, what happens when that killer spell isn't a double? Pleanty of armies are unaffected by it; Dwarfs, Ogres, Vamps (mostly), Tomb Kings, also what about those low magic armies? other armies that just take that 1 scroll caddy? they aren't affected by it at all either. So now we have about 1/4 of the armies are unaffected then probably 1/3 to 1/2 the rest of the builds being relatively untouched as well. Furthermore if you really do want magic protection then you'll need a caddy on top so DEs are now paying 150 points for that extra magic protection, most armies only pay 130 ish for the same scroll caddy, do you see Dark Elves complaining that we have to pay extra for the same thing everyone else gets?
The problem with the ring is that for a measly 25 points, you basically make your entire/most of your battleline immune to the main offensive spellcaster armies. Most offensive spells need at least 3 dice to cast. At three dice your chance of miscasting is around 40% and it only goes up dramatically the more dice you throw in. You want your battleline to be immune to most level 5 and 6 spells? Use one 25 point no thought ring on a champion and you're set. Right now there's no reason to bring a Slann, Archmage, High Sorceress or any other type of high level spellcaster to a tourney because the DE are one of the best lists and that expensive spellcaster will be shut down by 1 25 point magic item.

loveless
13-01-2009, 15:21
This is madness...


Madness? This is WarSeer!

Had to be done.

Back on topic:

I picked up the Dark Elf book as soon as it came out. I flipped through it - good fluff, decent rules, etc. etc.

The magic items caught my eye as being one of the most useful collections of items I've seen in a long time - there were plenty of combos that sounded fun or otherwise interesting.

I don't really consider anything in the book to be cheesy - everyone says it's an amazing book, but it really seems to be full of glass hammers outside of the characters (and even then, some of them follow suit), Cold One units, and Hydras (which are all, unsurprisingly, popular). Hatred feels appropriate, if not a bit misnamed (something like Arrogance would have been a better name - after all, Sigvald's "Stupidity" got renamed to "Supreme Vanity" or some such rot).

Now, maybe I don't give them enough credit - but then, I don't find Vampires to be overbearing, either.

Anyway, the Dark Elf book, for the most part, "feels" right. If it weren't for god-awful Spear/Crossbow models and metal Dark Riders, I'd probably have started them up.

DarkTerror
13-01-2009, 16:08
The most stubborn, annoying, powerfully resistant and stupidly reliable things in the game are ITP. Dark Elves avoid this nearly entirely.

I would say WE are far more cheesy due to their all-too-common and far more underpriced ITP units.

Dark Elves? They have a few things which are too good (in a relative term). Being two items (both are not broken, but should cost somewhere over 50 points each) and two monsters. The dragon shouldn't have hatred and the Hydra should be a few points more.

However, I'd also argue that without these points the Dark Elves would be quite sub-par. Their characters are weak, pricey and lack terrific killing power (Assassins included with this group).

The overall army is as frail as can be.


Side rant:

What's so wrong with the Pendant of Khaleth anyway (not talking points, but function)? Right now Warhammer has a problem in that most people think magic needs to super-high. Give me 12 power dice you say... I'll swamp 'em down with so many dice I'll need a broom to clean them all up! I may even need to stick a few up your nose so I have a place to keep 'em. Don't sneeze, k?

But when an item comes out which gives your all-my-eggs-are-in-one-basket army trouble you cry foul! Hey! No Fair!

Bac5665
13-01-2009, 16:17
SkaerKrow, You really don't think that BG are undercosted? Really? The pendant isn't the problem with that army. All the pendant does is give you more incentive to charge the general's unit in the flank, which you should do anyway. But BG, being 2 points cheaper than they should be, are broken. They make it much harder to meaningfully flank that general's unit (which will be a unit of BG.) They make executioners and witch elves that much less attractive, not because they aren't good units, but because BG are that much better. When that happens, there is something wrong.

EvC
13-01-2009, 16:19
First of all the Druchii items are not broken in any way shape or form. The Ring of Hotek and the Pendant are undercosted but not broken. The rest of the item list is so much "yawn" that its barely worth looking twice at. Hydras Teeth? Crystal of Midnight? Black Dragon Egg? Black Amulet? Shield of Ghrond? Executioners Axe? Banner of Cold Blood?

You are so blinded by the cheapness of the "big three" magic items (Pendant, Ring and Hag Graef) that these items appear expensive. Some are, certainly- Black amulet is priced crazily when you consider the Pendant. But most are priced pretty fairly' it's just you'll never be able to get them into your army list as their magic item slots have already been taken by the no-brainers.


Secondly, where and when did all units in the DE book become undercosted?

You're the Dark Elf fan, you tell us, when was the new book released? ;)

Seriously though, most stuff is extremely cheap. The models that are priced fairly, I almost never see taken, because why take a fairly priced army when you can take stuff that is so much cheaper?


100pts for a Cold One Chariot? That sounds about right to me.

Compare to a High Elf Chariot that is either 10 points less and crazily weaker, or 40 points more and certainly worse.


12pts for an Executioner? They aren't worth 12pts.

They are, you've just been spoiled by the Black Guard, which are considerably underpriced and easily made ASF.


10pts for a Corsair? Again, hardly/never really worth it.

Ok a bit expensive for what it does, but not bad.


Black Guard are much cheaper than they used to be but they have plenty of weaknesses to exploit.

You mean they can be shot, and that's about it. Not even chariots work really, as they're stubborn LD9.


This whole DE = Cheese thing is really beginning to get on my nerves.

Try taking some Corsairs, Executioners, some of those magic items you never see used instead then. I don't think Dark Elves are cheesy, but every list I've seen is based around the same dull tenets.


They don't spam powerdice

Cough, yes they do! I've played lists with 16 power dice a turn. The fact they're burning 2+ dice a spell doesn't make it any more fun.


they don't get mage/casters who can heal themselves

Heard of Soul Stealer?


they actually do run away when beaten

That's why I see people jam half their armies into the Black Guard units. Yawn...


Added to that they could be said to be one of the more unpredictable armies with the large amounts of Frenzy and Stupidity that they can bring to a game.

I agree here, it is great to see a bit of uncertainty in the army. Though people will usually rubbish taking any of that stuff in a "proper" list :o


I am just saying that after years of having a sub-par book(to put it mildly) its nice to have a few things that actually scare my opponents on the other side of the board!

I appreciate that, and Dark Elf players do deserve a strong army. I just get a bit put-out by Dark Elf players who think they deserve an army that is cheaper and less fun for their opponent to use, because they put up with a weak army for years. Dark Elves are a great army, players just need a bit of restraint when putting together an army. As with Vamps and Daemons :)

orkz222
13-01-2009, 16:25
I find DE ok just that the hydra and some magic items need to increase in point cost and remove hatred from the non-DE, creatures like the dragon, hydra,cold ones etc...

stonehorse
13-01-2009, 17:41
Can't believe people are complaining about 6pts Dark Elf Warriors... they are toughness 3, and wear light armour. Maybe it's that Spear that they carry that is soo scary, no wait; it's just a standard Spear, backed up with a mighty strength 3.

Pfft!

True, Hatred does helps... for the first round of combat.

Part of the perceived issue is that the book has some half backed options example; if Executioners and Witch Elves could have 50pts banners, Black Guard wouldn't be seen as much as they are, and as such lists wouldn't be so predictable.

They are powerful, that much is very true, and are a top tier army (about time), but their power comes from synergy, and not lazy rules *cough* ASF *cough*.

spartan41
13-01-2009, 17:43
I think dark elves are awesome and should stay the way they are, or maybe increase the magic items points cost but everything else seems solid and balanced with well aligned rules. They are a popular and have an awesome character to the army. Where I play (mostly because of the new minis) there are alot of dark elf players. Some of the players are good and have good lists and are a challenge to face, some of the players are bad and lose all the time. It's all situational which is why warhammer is so fun, sometimes your army is good against one opponent sometimes it sucks. I wish people would stop pulling out the cheese card, Probably the most annoying thing on these boards!! BG are good, so are many other troop types in WH. They are an elite of their race... Hydras are vicious and scary, they should be they have five heads... Elves are known for having crazy magic items! Thorpe did a great job. If you're reading this you were spot on bro.

W0lf
13-01-2009, 17:49
Full stop. I'll give you the Pendant. If I'm feeling charitable, I'll give you the Hydra (though that's really pushing it). Nothing else in the list is undercosted in the slightest.

If you think saying the hydra is undercosted is pushing it then your oppinion on the book is very questionable.

Theirs a reason people hate dual hydras and tournys are filled with them.


Oh and i totally second the 'executioners are fine' comment, just compared to black guard/Cold ones they arnt worth having.

If you think the folowing are fine we arnt on the same page at all;

- Black guard too cheap.
- Spearmen too cheap, both models + fc costs.
- Cold one knights too cheap. With hatred they should be ~30 pts
- Ring, pendant, regen armour, dagger are all too cheap
- many other problems.

Oh and DE make a hell of a strong case for the following;

Best skirmisher unit in the game
Most surviable lord in the game
Best monster in the game
Best fast cavalry in the game
Best magic phase pts-PD ratio. Lvl 4 with dagger + dual stones = joke.
Best stubborn unit in the game (take into account ld 9 and cost + asf)

Thats quite a lot to be 'best' at.

Nothing exept the Hydra is overpowered in its own right but nigh on everything is a little-too-good for its cost. IMHO. Oh and i play Dark elves ;)

The SkaerKrow
13-01-2009, 18:02
But BG, being 2 points cheaper than they should be, are broken. They're T3 with a 5+ Armor Save at best. Shoot. Them. You can't shoot them? Hit them with a Magic Missile. Black Guard are a potent unit of infantry in a game where infantry is usually outclassed. Yes, you can add Null Shards, Banners and the Ring of Hotek to really make them shine, but people fail to realize that you pay points for those items, therefore driving up the price of the unit.


They make executioners and witch elves that much less attractive, not because they aren't good units, but because BG are that much better. When that happens, there is something wrong.Executioners are garbage. They've always been garbage, at this rate they always will be garbage. A T3, 5+ AS unit that always strikes last at 12ppm? No, Executioners needed a serious boost to make them viable. They didn't get it, so they're still not viable. Most people that I know who avoid Witches do so because they're a bear to paint or they're intimidated by trying to handle Frenzy, not because they're particularly weak.

szlachcic
13-01-2009, 18:07
From what I read so far, the main problem with Dark Elves is SYNERGY. There is so much synergy among units and combos that it makes the army so much better than its peers. I admit that with powerful rxb shooting and fast units, it makes it extremely easy for the dark elven player to focus his army's entire strength to break a point in the enemy defenses then quickly disperse and repeat the process again. Something that can only be done with difficulty in the 6th ed list (in the 6th ed list, u can throw most of your hardhitters against 1 enemy unit and still lose.... :) )

I would have to agree, but I would argue that the same synergy that makes the book "overpowered" is in my opinion the hallmark of a well designed army book. The synergy between the units is what makes this army so fun to play. This army has always been about dictating when and where you pick your fights, but now we can actually depend on units to behave a certain way instead of hoping that the dice gods don't fail us (which happens more times than not when you are S and T 3).

To anyone who thinks the book is overpowered I challenge you to give this list to a "new" player and let them have a crack at it. I am sure they will load up on goodies such as BG and Hydras (not saying that taking these units makes you a newbie, it is just obvious that they are good) and will not think about how units such as Harpies, Dark Riders, or bait Warrior units could be used. They will probably expect their blocks to go toe-to-toe with an enemy unit an break it. I have rarely seen a DE army played this way win. However, when someone experienced (w/ the army or the tactics in general) is using the list it can be used to devastating effect. This is where I believe people start crying cheese and whining about how overpowered the list is. The thing is if you make mistakes with DEs you will pay dearly for it unlike some of the "overpowered" VC and Daemon builds we see, or even other armies such as WoC and Dwarves who can stand behind their tough troops.

My only problem with the book is that there are a few units that under perform such as the already mentioned Executioners. Someone argued why take Execs when you have cheap Warriors, which doesn't make sense to me. Warriors should be used for SCR, baiting, or as a power dice generating source, none of which are what Executioners do. Executioners need to be a way for DEs to take out heavily armored units, but as it stands now they are too expensive for their effectiveness. I don't mind that they are T3 and have a 5+ save, but they should at least be terrifying to face in combat.

Sifal
13-01-2009, 18:37
Oh and DE make a hell of a strong case for the following;

Best skirmisher unit in the game
Most surviable lord in the game
Best monster in the game
Best fast cavalry in the game
Best magic phase pts-PD ratio. Lvl 4 with dagger + dual stones = joke.
Best stubborn unit in the game (take into account ld 9 and cost + asf)


Best magic phase in the game pts - PD ratio has to go to lizardmen (I appreciate you may not have the army book yet). They're magic is soo cheap and good. level 2 skink priest - 100 pts, level 4 slann with sick rules (and i mean sick) is only 275 pts. engine of the gods can't be dispelled. Add in power stones, chanelling etc. I also think tzeentch daemons are better at magic point for point.
Best skirmisher unit in the game imo is daemon flamers, they are better than shades.
most survivable lord in game is questionable for DE, maybe based purely on defense but if you consider the survivable daemon characters that get amazing defense and offense i think the DE lord will die more often. I would rather try to kill DE lord in HTH than great unclean one, herald of nurgle tooled right, vlad von cartstein, Kholek etc
Best monster, Fast Cav and stubborn unit i would agree with.

EvC
13-01-2009, 18:39
They're T3 with a 5+ Armor Save at best. Shoot. Them. You can't shoot them? Hit them with a Magic Missile. Black Guard are a potent unit of infantry in a game where infantry is usually outclassed. Yes, you can add Null Shards, Banners and the Ring of Hotek to really make them shine, but people fail to realize that you pay points for those items, therefore driving up the price of the unit.

And (Null Shards excluded), these are all very cheap for what they do. The Black Guard are cheap at basic cost, saying that they have access to other cheap magic items that make them even harder to kill hardly strengthens your case ;)


Executioners are garbage. They've always been garbage, at this rate they always will be garbage. A T3, 5+ AS unit that always strikes last at 12ppm?

It's funny, if someone says BG are cheap you round on them, and say how we just need to use simple tactics to deal with them (Shoot them, no kidding!), yet presented with a unit that provides a tactical challenge for you to use, nope, sorry, they're garbage, get them away! :D


No, Executioners needed a serious boost to make them viable. They didn't get it, so they're still not viable.

Let's be completely honest here: they're not viable because they don't have ASF, and are not stubborn like Black Guard. This is all the High Elves army book's fault, before they came out, people didn't always think you HAD to have all these special rules for a unit to be good. But now? If it aint Stubborn ItP ASF with a champion that makes wizards miscast on a double... it's garbage :D

W0lf
13-01-2009, 18:52
Best skirmisher unit in the game imo is daemon flamers, they are better than shades.

Very sorry i meant 'scouts'.

Wardancers, flamer (ofc), Dryads, Beast herds etc are all arguably better skirmishers then shades. My bad.

Sifal
13-01-2009, 19:02
fair enough easy mistake. in that case 4th thing i agree with you about, they are the best scouts.

Kerill
13-01-2009, 19:11
Best magic phase in the game pts - PD ratio has to go to lizardmen (I appreciate you may not have the army book yet). They're magic is soo cheap and good. level 2 skink priest - 100 pts, level 4 slann with sick rules (and i mean sick) is only 275 pts. engine of the gods can't be dispelled. Add in power stones, chanelling etc. I also think tzeentch daemons are better at magic point for point.
Best skirmisher unit in the game imo is daemon flamers, they are better than shades.
most survivable lord in game is questionable for DE, maybe based purely on defense but if you consider the survivable daemon characters that get amazing defense and offense i think the DE lord will die more often. I would rather try to kill DE lord in HTH than great unclean one, herald of nurgle tooled right, vlad von cartstein, Kholek etc
Best monster, Fast Cav and stubborn unit i would agree with.

So skink priest, engine of the gods and naked slann- that's 600 points or so? Compared to just over 300? Hmmm, you may have missed his point here. Incidetally 320 points of Tzeentch daemons will get you 26/27 horrors, just about enough to make them level 3, of course 1 casualty and they will be down to level 2.
Flamers are probably the best skirmishing unit I'll give you that, remarkably overpowered;thankfully they are rare (as in army selection, not as in popularity). Shades are remarkably close behind them though. Even though they are S3AP rather than S4 they will hit more when shooting, get to scout and whether their cc attacks are more effective than a flamer or not depends on what you are fighting. Actually I may have talked myself out of flamers, maybe shades are the best skirmishing unit bar none. Nah I suppose ITPand M6 keeps the flamers just above them on the pedestal.
Mostsurvivable lord- no question there at all actually, DE lord by a long way whilst being an awful lot cheaper than said GUO, with crimson death also has the same S and number of A but a much higher WS. The only GUO to stand a chance against is if they have pestilent mucus or nurgles rot and 12-18 daemon magic phases for it to work in. As for the nurgle herald?
Herald, palanquin, noxious vapours versus standard dreadlord with 1+ save, khaeleth and S6:
Herald attacks first (vapours): 3*.5*.8333*.3333*.16666=0.069 wounds
Palanquin: 6*.33333*.5*.16666*.5= 0.083 wounds.
Grand total of 0.15 wounds per turn (woo-hoo)
Dreadlord attacks: 4*.6666*.6666*.6666*.5= 0.38 wounds (more first turn due to hatred). So dreadlord is twice as "killy" (so to speak).

Are daemons overpowered- yep
Do DE seem to be doing remarkably good in comparison to the best units that daemons have so far- yes indeed they do- alarm bells ringing yet?

Of course we could go further and compare things like:
RBT crossbowmen versus ANY OTHER MISSILE UNIT IN THE GAME
or Hydras versus any other monster in the game of up to 300 points (they do lose narrowly to dragons after hatred has worn off, although they will win first round, regardless of whether they are charged or not).

- Anyway you can check all these things yourself, don't just take my word for it.

Druchii- cool army, great fluff, great models, years in the wilderness of an awful list now faced with the sad truth of being overpowered.

Although I do agree with skaercrow that executioners suck.
Black guard, if you add an extra 2 points per model for the banner of ASF are a lot better than swordmasters btw, for the same points.

Aglemar
13-01-2009, 19:46
Lord on Dragon with seal of grond, 600 points and it only gives one dispel dice? Clearly the dark elf magic can't be good.

His argument was that the lizard man had better magic, and better magic per point. Simply adding up everything in the list and declaring it worse is foolish, try not using straw man arguments and make real claims as to their respective power by using realistic examples from both lists.

The category of "Most survivable lord" is pointless as a category. Survival as a tactic alone isn't a tactic at all. You could say he is a good hero killer due to his survival abilities by challenging a character and wearing them down, but then you would also have to say he is at least tied with an ancient who also excels at that feat while being able to do other things as well, or things like sniper slaan, challenging elven arch mages, and sneaky empire heroes. In game applications make categories, not arbitrary titles.

Shades while incredibly useful aren't incredibly strong. They are good in the same way that skinks are good. These guys are terrific at area denial and at that feat they are the best I agree. They also are more expensive than almost any other scout in the game (baring maybe way watchers), and in some applications are no better then cheaper alternatives. You get what you pay for, especially when they are so weak against magic missiles.

We have good repeater Xbows, this is true, we also have worse artillery then most armies, only having one somewhat expensive bolt thrower as an option.

The hydra is very good, but also specialized. They are good against low toughness, low armor save enemies and at getting flank charges. They are also rare and compete against our only artillery meaning if someone does take two they are leaving themselves open to the things bolt throwers are there to counter.

I could go on but I wont, other then to say that if you really want to make a convincing compelling argument then make one. Explain with in depth argument instead of all the baseless accusations and such that seem to be going on here.

P.S. Executioners do indeed suck :(

Emissary
13-01-2009, 19:58
The thing is if you make mistakes with DEs you will pay dearly for it unlike some of the "overpowered" VC and Daemon builds we see, or even other armies such as WoC and Dwarves who can stand behind their tough troops.
This isn't even completely true. The dark elves don't pay very dearly for mistakes compared to a lot of other armies and are very forgiving now. The standard BG units is one of the most forgiving units in the game. Screw up with your movement and get charged? No biggie, we strike first. Screw up with your positioning and get flanked? No biggie, we are stubborn. Screw up on our dispel rolls recently? No biggie we cause miscasts on any double. Screw up on your to hit rolls? No biggie, we get to reroll hits every round. They aren't perfect, but they are certainly more forgiving then most (I'd say over 90%) of the units out there. The hydra gets a bucket of high S attacks with hatred and 2 multi-attack, AP handlers, plus is a skirmisher with great armor. It's also stupidly forgiving. The ring and pendent also give you very cheap options to cover large holes in the army (like magic defense and large monster defense). Compared to a lot of armies like empire, orcs and so on they're a ton more forgiving IMHO.


The category of "Most survivable lord" is pointless as a category. Survival as a tactic alone isn't a tactic at all.
This isn't true to me at all. The ability to call out a challenge to that BT, dragon hero or just about any other large cost, stompy lord that are becoming more and more common in tourneys these days isn't pointless at all.

Aglemar
13-01-2009, 20:09
Maybe you should quote all of what I said instead of using it out of context and then trying to argue against it by arguing the point I stated after it.

Emissary
13-01-2009, 20:14
You point =/= my point. My point is only that just tying up a character sometimes is all you need. I certainly didn't take your quote out of context. if you have the 1+ save lord in a unit with that pendent and the regen armor, your opponent is going to have to be very lucky to take him out with anything. It's so easy to pull off and given the current tourney environment being able to easily take those large models out of the game is a giant + in the dark elves' favor.

stonehorse
13-01-2009, 20:32
Flamers are probably the best skirmishing unit I'll give you that, remarkably overpowered;thankfully they are rare (as in army selection, not as in popularity). Shades are remarkably close behind them though. Even though they are S3AP rather than S4 they will hit more when shooting, get to scout and whether their cc attacks are more effective than a flamer or not depends on what you are fighting. Actually I may have talked myself out of flamers, maybe shades are the best skirmishing unit bar none. Nah I suppose ITPand M6 keeps the flamers just above them on the pedestal.

Also Flamers don't suffer -1 for multiple shots, and they cause Fear, which can protect them from being charged.

The best Scout in the game are Nurglings, 3 wounds each, 2 attacks, poisoned attacks, Skirmishers, Immune to Psychology, cause fear, and have a 5+ Ward save... that is very good!


RBT crossbowmen versus ANY OTHER MISSILE UNIT IN THE GAME


Dwarf Thunderes with Shields are the best Missile unit in the game, Strength 4, -2 save, can move and fire, get a +1 to hit, and the Dwarf is quite durable.


This isn't even completely true. The dark elves don't pay very dearly for mistakes compared to a lot of other armies and are very forgiving now. The standard BG units is one of the most forgiving units in the game. Screw up with your movement and get charged? No biggie, we strike first. Screw up with your positioning and get flanked? No biggie, we are stubborn. Screw up on our dispel rolls recently? No biggie we cause miscasts on any double. Screw up on your to hit rolls? No biggie, we get to reroll hits every round. They aren't perfect, but they are certainly more forgiving then most (I'd say over 90%) of the units out there. The hydra gets a bucket of high S attacks with hatred and 2 multi-attack, AP handlers, plus is a skirmisher with great armor. It's also stupidly forgiving. The ring and pendent also give you very cheap options to cover large holes in the army (like magic defense and large monster defense). Compared to a lot of armies like empire, orcs and so on they're a ton more forgiving IMHO.

Bit early for the first of April don't you think?

Are you really saying that Dark Elves are a forgiving army... and army whose Toughness is 3, and the best armour the infantry wear is a Shield and Light Armour (due to close combat benefits).

If your troops are dying/struggle when they charge into Black Guard you DESERVE to do so, Elite Elves that have have spent a couple of hundreds of years training should be able to deal with the 'lesser' races elites.

Knowing this, you need to explore their weakness... which is to shoot them, or lock them down, or even better avoid them, and just keep some fast cavalry in their charge range... giving the Dark Elf player the option to charge, from which you will flee, and the Black Guard will stumble forward 5" and will have wasted a turn. They can only hurt you when they are in combat, until then they are target practice, if they are being screened they can't charge that turn either... it goes both ways.

As for the whole Dreadlord being un-killable, here's a little idea... attack the unit he is in, they are Elves with Toughness 3, who will have very little armour. If the Dark Elf player has invested the points into making an un-killable Dreadlord, then the Dreadlord won't be that much of a threat. Pendent of Khaeleth and the Armour of Eternal Servitude will take a 70 point bite out of his Magic Item allowance... bet he's got a real ‘stabby-killy’ sword with those 30Pts left [/sarcasm]

The un-killable Lord simply forces opponents to play different, learn to adapt... if you keep playing the same tactics against Dark Elves that you do against other armies, you are doing it wrong, and only have your self to blame.

The Hydra is nasty... but don't you think it should be? It is a creature that breathes fire and re-grows heads once they have been cut off. Something like that should be hard to take out.

Maybe it's me just being a grumpy old Veteran... but when people start calling Dark Elves a forgiving army... I really start to wonder about the level of players these days.

Aglemar
13-01-2009, 20:43
Our points are exactly the same, just mine includes what happens after you tie up the enemy. Either way it isn't the survival itself thats important, its the ability to defeat enemy heroes by taking them out of the game that is important. That is why they should be considered 'character killers' (even if not in the literal sense) and not just a generic survival category. Compare them to what does the same task, not to things that do the task the same way.

Ward.
13-01-2009, 21:15
I'm curious. At what point do the dark elves become broken? When did the daemons and the vampire counts pass that point yet the dark elves not reach it?

It was ITP that carried DOC and VC across the line. The developers just seem to have never taken into account how much easier it is to plan tactics out when your whole army is guaranteed to do what you want it to.

Still dark elves aren't broken but they're definitely powerful.


While DE Warriors are incredibly cheap is this really such a problem? It's not like anyone ever uses them as Skaven Slaves because they're cheap but not that cheap...
Well some people use them in the same role, there was a list up here a few weeks ago that made light of that.

What it does mean is you can get your basic 3-4 blocks of core troops and still have enough points to spend on the better tings in the list.

[QUOTE=Draconian77;3199326]
It's not like they will beat heavily armoured or high toughness foes either.
They even run/panic/fail Fear/Terror tests etc a reasonable amount of the time.
I don't see why they can't or shouldn't be expected to, they're cheap enough to be taken as a horde unit (I've mostly seen and fielded 25-30).
They have hatred and spears, killing off the odd high toughness model here and there is certainly possible.



Very good for adding SCR and they work out quite well against similar models(T3 4+ saves) but again I just can't see any 1A S3 infantry unit being too good.
They have spears, hatred and WS4, while WS4 may not seem like much the difference between getting hit on 3's vs 4's most of the time is huge. This means they can hold onto their static combat resolution bonuses for an extra turn or two in some cases (read: the ones that matter).

stonehorse
13-01-2009, 21:20
It was ITP that carried DOC and VC across the line. The developers just seem to have never taken into account how much easier it is to plan tactics out when your whole army is guaranteed to do what you want it to.

This always makes me laugh... have people forgot that both Deamons and Undead have always been* Immune to Psychology?

It goes with the nature of their armies, it is stronger in the Deamons, than in the Undead, due to the Undead troops being of very low quality.

*Well as long as I can remember, which is as far back as 4th edition.

Sifal
13-01-2009, 21:22
pt for pt magic effectiveness is an economy of scale. also to work it out you need to get the mean average by dividing number of power dice by the amount of points spent on magic users. then there is the problems of variables such as the subjective matter of how many PD is the right amount for your army before you're no longer willing to keep spending points on magic users and add in which lore of magic is most effective, bound spells, support vs offensive magic etc etc. anyway it is tricky to work out but imo the new lizardmen have the best PD to point ratio when considering special rules, free dice the slann gets for every spell he casts, chanelling, army dynamics etc. and 100pt for level 2 caster is cheap by all army standards.
on the topic of most survivable lord one can't randomly pick out one gift for a herald to take and then do mathammer based on that. point for point the DE lord may well be on average the hardest thing to kill but spend more get more with daemons, I really do think they can create most survivable combo. anyway it's almost immpossible to prove etc but i'd put my money on keeper with 'you can't hit me cos you can't pass leadership test' or GUO etc at the end of the day the DE lord has 3 toughness 3 wounds. in many situations he will be more survivable against anything else but low strength attacks that don't allow or modify armour saves or have killing blow etc he's dead as fast as the next generic lord. Waywatchers, salamanders, breath weapons, skulltaker, frostblade, blade of realities, long rifles, so many spells, break tests and the fact he's not going to kill whatever is killing him very fast makes him..... not squishy by any means but not as invulnerable as some.

Von Wibble
13-01-2009, 21:29
I think the fact the book is considered "overpowered" because of its synergy is actually a case for saying that all of the other books should have the same things. Certainly they are potent and have the beating of teh old lists. But compared to the benchmark of wood elves, empire, dwarfs, chaos, high elves, vampires, daemons, they are about in the middle, and all the armies listed can beat them imo.

Most troops are not undercosted so much as just having the perfect abilities for their points. If I were to make changes, I would change

1) Pendant of Khaeleth is Sorceress only. I play this as a personal restriciton and think its a perfectly fair item when not boosted by armour/regeneration

2) Black guard go up 2 pts per model. Units of 20 with powerful champion and banner would then cost nearly 400pts.

3) Harpies need some restriction. Not sure what though :)

Thats all. And I could easily mention other armies that could do with similar culling.

Other comments

Hydras lose to giant in combat for just a few points less, albeit with better resilience and a shooting attack. If they were to go up in points it should not be by much. Imo giants, manticores, shaggoths and the like need improving rather than hydras weakening.

Dragons are good, and hatred is powerful. But having to pursue means they often can be restricted in terms of how much action they can see. The always pursue is a weakness to be exploited in general, but particularly applies here. Last time I took a dragon rider the always pursue cost me that model (though it did take out a bloodthirster first ;) )

Dark elf spearmen are cheap but still outnumbered by clanrats (who win combats through this combined with that 4+ save) and outclassed by more expensive troops. Only with an assassin does this change - but then of course the unit is costing twice as much.

Dagger is fair enough as it does cost points for the item and for the spearmen. Also it leaves the sorceress in question vulnerable.

Ring of hotek is only any good if you have little magic yourself. It does not stop the opponent from casting wind of death at you. It does not prevent single dice invocation spam. It is useful but can be your own worst enemy.

They are a good list who I like using. But I think my empire army could give them a tough game.

Sifal
13-01-2009, 21:29
undead and daemons may be immune to pyschology but they also can't flee as a charge reaction. daemons don't lose wounds to CR as fast as VC do. VC also crumble if general dies, have lowest average initiative, can't march outwith 6" of a vampire or 12" of general and have no shooting (no-one bother mentioning banshee). I'm not saying they aren't powerful cos they are but don't pull them up on ITP when they get a lot of crap stuff to counter it.

PARTYCHICORITA
13-01-2009, 22:02
It's hilarious how when the book was just out a lot of veteran DE players were saying it was a mediocre book. Now other players are saying it's overpower.

Fun stuff...

Truth beeing told i think the DE have the best 7th edition book, not beacuse it's overpower (which it's not) but because it has a lot of choices all of which can find a place in an army; that makes things interesting. It's a fun challenging book and i've had a lot of fun with my DE for the last few months.

Hrogoff the Destructor
13-01-2009, 23:56
Hydras lose to giant in combat for just a few points less, albeit with better resilience and a shooting attack. If they were to go up in points it should not be by much. Imo giants, manticores, shaggoths and the like need improving rather than hydras weakening.

Giants are also terribly unreliable and never do anything you want them to. They are beasts in close combat against other large targets, so if you get charged by it, you probably deserve the beating that's coming. That and they can die in two turns due to small arms fire.

A shaggoth with great weapon should honestly cost less than a hydra. A hydra has +2 attacks, hatred, regen, str. 5 breath weapon, and 4 attacks of str. 3 hatred. So a shaggoth has +1 wound (but no regen), -2 attacks without hatred, no ranged attack, no 4 bonus str. 3 attacks of hatred (which can make a difference), +1 movement, +1str, and a higher WS... for a 100 points more.

It's like if a the current saurus warriors were the same points as chaos warriors, while the chaos warriors are the points cost of the current saurus warriors. It sounds like an unfair comparison, but when you compare how the combats should turn out it really isn't. A shaggoth with a GW (or two hand weapons) will lose in close combat to a hydra every time. In 1.5 turns the shaggoth will be dead, and the hyrda "should" have 2/5 wounds left. When you consider that a hydra also has an additional ranged attack while costing 100 points less, you being to realize one thing. The hydra is greatly undercosted.

And I won't even bother comparing a WoC daemon prince to a hyrda. The only thing they do is fly, get laughed at, and cry themselves to sleep at night.

I would gladly take a hydra for the points cost of a shaggoth. What hydra's need is a rather large points increase.

Anvilbrow
14-01-2009, 00:03
Hydras being very powerful for their points cost. The comparison with the Varghulf neglected the breath weapon, the 6 extra armour piercing hatred attacks, the 4+ armour. The fact that the Varghulf only has 5 attacks, so can only, at best, draw with a fully ranked up unit, means that its Undead rules are quite a pain for it as it will start losing wounds from the first round of combat thanks to static res. Where as the Hydra should get about 6/7 kills and breaks a whole lot of units on the charge. The Hydra is better, I dont care about a Varghulf when it is placed down against me, I do when its a Hydra.

Not to mention being a skirmisher with a 360 degree LOS and the ability to move through terrain at will.

I agree, there are a few undercosted items/units. The Ring of Hotek is just plain annoying, but remember it can cause a miscast by the user just as easily. Shade deathstar is nasty no matter how you cut it, but it is hydras that to me are the big offender for the cost. They are superior to many other creatures/units of similar or even greater cost and so darned flexible (literally and figuratively)

Hrogoff the Destructor
14-01-2009, 00:08
Not to mention being a skirmisher with a 360 degree LOS and the ability to move through terrain at will.

Due to the hydra's base size it shouldn't have 360 line of sight, even if it's a skirmisher (I think).

Anvilbrow
14-01-2009, 00:17
Check the new FAQ. Skirmisher. The hydra could be limited too for that matter, the handlers can see every direction so that is immaterial unless somehow you manage to kill the handlers:eyebrows:

Caine Mangakahia
14-01-2009, 00:40
I hate the old "Just avoid the Black Guard/Pendant/Grave Guard etc" argument Im sorry, do you think your opponant will nicely oblige? And its not especially easy to do against DE either.

Caine Mangakahia
14-01-2009, 00:42
Check the new FAQ. Skirmisher. The hydra could be limited too for that matter, the handlers can see every direction so that is immaterial unless somehow you manage to kill the handlers:eyebrows:

I beleive under the Monster & Handler rule in the BRB it says that only the monster counts for LOS Charging (both as a charger and a chargee) targeting, flanks arcs and soforth. The handlers are ignored in such matters.

Guy Fawkes
14-01-2009, 01:36
I know this isn't a "cheese DE" comment, but I feel DE were gypped when their Dark Pegasus was given multiple wounds. It sounds nice but means DE can be de-horsed, while other new army books got 1-wound flying cavalry.

I believe my main problem with DE is how resilient the characters are. In my mind, it makes sense that DE nobles would be paranoid and have lots of magic items to protect themselves, but it is a royal pain in the ass to fight a super character with a 1+ armor save, reverse ward save, and regeneration. It's not like you can ignore him like a Dwarf Lord either, because he can be mounted or have a Dragon. He's base movement 5 even on foot. I don't feel DE are unbeatable or that they are too much cheese or anything, but I do groan every time I see some unkillable Lord that will tie up a unit the whole game. The Hydra is also annoying if you play an army without shooting.

blueon462
14-01-2009, 01:54
Hydras only move as skirmishers as long as the handlers are alive. Charging is done as a monster etc.... someone please buy a rulebook =/

After playing Dark Elves in 5th and 6th edition this thread brings a tear to my eyes. Sounds like a bunch of DE players are romping on a few of the lesser generals.

Darkspear
14-01-2009, 02:02
Oh and DE make a hell of a strong case for the following;

Best skirmisher unit in the game
Most surviable lord in the game
Best monster in the game
Best fast cavalry in the game
Best magic phase pts-PD ratio. Lvl 4 with dagger + dual stones = joke.
Best stubborn unit in the game (take into account ld 9 and cost + asf)



The best stubborn unit in the game are templeguard (the new ones), basically cold blooded Blackguard with T4 and 2+ save.

Best fast cav in the game? Maybe but in my opinion most fast cav gave about the same performance really. We have the best fast cav in 6th ed but it did not help much.

Thomo
14-01-2009, 02:37
I'm with the group saying that DE aren't overpowered. They are a competitive army, and that is important to remember, but guess what - so is every recent release!

Whoever said Rxb's are the best missile unit in the game - wtf? Sure, multiple shots are great, but let's look at it:
-1 for Multiple Shots, -1 for Range, -1 for movement (if they do so) - the BS 4 troops that would normally hit on a 3 are now hitting on a 5/6. If the target is in terrain or skirmishers that becomes 6+ to hit. And when they do they are still only S3!
And Dark Riders, while good, are by no means the best fast cavalry in the game. Hatred helps make them above average on the charge (something that most other fast cav units lack) but other than that they are nothing special. RXB's make them quite expensive and they have a stack of penalties when shooting at something. (movement, range, multiple shots etc). Glade Riders would probably get my vote for best fast cav in the game (no movement penalties in woods, can move and shoot without a penalty, they have a 30" range etc)
Yes, BG are good, no denying that, but they are meant to be. Yes, 2 attacks, ItP and a high base initiative (ignoring the ASF banner - which can only effect ONE unit) are great, but they are still t3, 5+ save elves. They are far from the best infantry unit out there, and really aren't all that hard to deal with.
The Sacrificial Dagger? Looks good on paper, but I rarely use it. You can only stab once per spell atempt, and while the extra dice can be useful the item is not overpriced, in my opinion, it costs you models, points, and also increases the chances of something going wrong with a miscast.
Ring of Hotek? Double edged sword. Every spell that is targetted within 12", not every spell that has an effect within that radius. It also limits your own casting, and as been stated, does nothing to the single dice spells, IoN spam etc. Great magic defence, but hampers your own offence.
PoK? It's a great item, possibly a little underpriced, but there are more than enough ways of dealing with it, and these have been covered already.
I think a lot of the problem stems with people used to Dark Elves being an easy army to overcome, and one that required a lot of thought to play well. No-one disputes that it was a sub-par army, and when the high elves came out it really turned the knife. However, since the new release the Dark Elves have become on par with everyone else, and a lot of people can't handle that.
And as a final point, what is the point of comparing points values and attributes between army books? The points system isn't developed as an overall, all encompasing system for everything in the game, but instead the points are derived based on how the unit in question works within it's own list.
Comparing a hydra to a varhgulf is a waste because they play vastly different roles. The Varghulf is a crucial support element for other units within the VC list, not just on an offensive basis. The ability it gives to other units to march etc can't be compared to the out-right offensive unit that a hydra is.
And sure, the hydra has a nasty breath weapon - until it starts losing wounds. And just about the only army that doesn't have access to shooting capable of knocking off a few wounds before the beastie gets in close is VC and BoC. BoC are a vastly outdated book, and they struggle against a lot of armies, and as a VC player, I am no-where near concerned about the hydra, we have way too many options for dealing with it.
So to wind this rant up, no the Dark Elves are not overpowered, it is one of the best designed books i've seen in a while (and I was really impressed with the VC one).
What is becoming apparent, however, is the widening gap between the older books and the newer ones, but unfortunately that is something that can't be controlled, and is completely unviable to attempt.
What it does mean is that people are going to have to change the way they play the game with each battle, and often the loudest are the ones who can't adapt.

Draconian77
14-01-2009, 02:55
Madness? This is WarSeer!




I had money down on someone saying this, many thanks!

Scout/Skirmisher; Best Skirmishers? Good but not the best. Probably just give this one to Skinks being that they are cheap as chips.

Most survivable Lord; How many Lords do you people actually kill(IE: Wounds reduced to 0)? Most players around here never lose their Lords due to a combination of things. (High stats, save, wards, regens, healing, flight, etc, etc)

Best monster in the game? Bloodthirster...(Ok, technically a character but it can be damn near impossible for some armies to take down) If you are getting killed by a Dragon with Hatred the odds are your losing to Dragons without Hatred aswell. This is a problem with Dragons really, not Hatred. Its also an internal balance issue that comes from the Manticore being so much easier to kill than a Dragon. GW if your listening you could easily give Scaly Skin saves for tough hides and matted fur to large creatures such as these.

Fast Cavalry; Good fast cavalry. But really Marauder Horse probably win this one.

Best magic phase; Rubbish. Druchii magic is a on par with Empire as long as you neatralise the Dagger which should be easy to do seeing as how a very expensive character is now just sitting inside a block of Spearmen holding a sign that sayd "Please don't notice me."

Best Stubborn unit; Lizardmen Temple Guard.

A few things:

Hydras are not entirely Skirmishers, they still have a 90 degree arc for charging and shooting.

A Dark Elf army is not entirely Black Guard and if it consists of many Black Guard units then most certainly not all of them will be striking first.

Executioners are not fine as some have said. They are in dire need of a complete overhaul. If they were better we might even see less BG being used.

Kerill
14-01-2009, 04:36
So general DE player comments so far have been
1) It's not overpowered at all
2) People are only upset because DE used to be easy to beat
3) DE generals are still better than anyone else

Responses to specific units being good:
Hydras aren't that good because their breath attack might no longer be the best one in the game if they suffer some wounds
Black guard don't have ASF if you don't buy the banner (but everyone does so...)
Black guard aren't overpowered because you can always shoot them (VC, OK, WOC, BOC, any combat list and to some extent TK and O*G can't)
OR you can magic missile them (unless the ring of hotek is present of course then you will miscast a lot more even with the basic 2 dice magic missiles saving the DE player's DD to dispel any other MM attempts that don't miscast)
repeater crossbows suckbecause if you have moved, multi shot and your opponent is a skirmisher in the trees they are reall hard to hit (hmmm)
Incidentally, DE crossbowman vs. thunderer missile fight, 12" range:
10 thunderers 140 points
14 crossbowmen 140 points.
- fire simultaneously for the sake of argument
Thunderers get +1 to hit:
10*.666*.666=4.44 wounds
DE crossbows get 28*.5*.333= 4.66 wounds
DE winning so far.
Second round 5.34 thunderers left, 9.56 DE left:
Thunderers5.34*.666*.666= 2.37
DE: 19.12*.5*.333= 3.1 kills
DE doing even better now, next round stunties wiped out.
so...still the best core missile troops in the game bar none

Sacrificial dagger: 25 points for 4 extra magic dice per phase in return for killing 4 spearmen. More or less the same as the +1 dice 2nd gen slann get per casting yes? NO! Because you get to choose if you roll the die or not which means you run less chance of a miscast (and even for slann a miscast is a failed spell). Yes you really can wait until you see the dice before you decide to use it or not and your high sorceress gets 5 spells by default. Apparently not a great and cheap magic phase because your sorceress might be in a unit of spearmen that your opponent will somehow autodestroy by looking at it.

Ring of hotek- apparently not a great item because it reduces the effectiveness of your own magic. Apparently there is some rule in the DE book where you must place your sorcerers in b-t-b with it. Of course if you had three infantry units with a bit of space between them you could put the ring carrier on one end of his unit on the left then the sorceress on the right side of her unit on the right. What do you get? Sorceress can cast with impunity but her unit is still protected by the ring of hotek, isn't that great?
Dark riders are worse than glade riders apparently because of the penalty for moving and shooting. Well if we move the dark riders and multishot they will hit exactly the same number of times as the glade riders will but will be S3 AP rather than S3. Seems like a win for the DE so far, although there is a difference of 3" in short range (which presumably with an 18" move isn't too difficult to overcome?) The of course if neither has moved the DE crossbow is far better than the glade rider's bow. Also, the dark rider is a lot more powerful in combat due to hatred for him and his horse. What's that you say? Dark riders are also CHEAPER with a repeater crossbow than a glade rider.
Apparently varghulfs are also better than the hydra despite the fact they have 7 less attacks, less wounds, harder to get full VPs, can't rank break and no breath weapon because they can let a unit march if you didn't have a vampire nearby (not very likely)and the unit in question doesn't have the option for the "always march" standard. I assume by etc. you mean M8, Ws5, eternal hatred and can be healed, doesn't equal out at all I reckon.
DE spears aren't that good, clanrats are better because they are cheaper and get 4+ save.
Ok then 25 de spears, against 1 MILLION clanrat where the clanrats have got the charge:
8 clanrats (since they are 10,000 wide): 9(champ)*.5*.5*.666= 1.33 kills1.49
De have 9.668 attacks back with hatred-8.59 hits*.5*.5= 2.14. Clanrats get US so its a draw, DE spearmen have just about managed to hold off 1 million clanrats. Second round:
DE strike first: 11*.666*.5*.5= 1.8 kills. Clanrats get 6.2 attacks back, 1 kill.
So on average DE spearmen will just about hold against 1 million clanrats since the extra width of the clanrats means they get an extra 2 attacks each round. Of course in game they won't be that wide meaning they will lose.
"Hydra are only good against low WS, save and T opponents". Really? Try running some numbers there and see what you get but generally if hydra charges it wins, if charged it might lose against some heavy cavalry.


I could go on all day and I'm not trying to say that everything in DE is broken, but all the DE players giving vague reasons for why DE are underpowered/not overpowered and then accusing those who are saying its' overpowered of lacking reasons is getting a bit trying. Go and REALLY compare the units, DE units are remarkably powerful/overpowered and so are some of the items.

Darkspear
14-01-2009, 04:41
I hate the old "Just avoid the Black Guard/Pendant/Grave Guard etc" argument Im sorry, do you think your opponant will nicely oblige? And its not especially easy to do against DE either.

Not being able to avoid infantry? Everyone knows that avoiding infantry isn't difficult. I can easily avoid High Elf swordmasters, I would expect other people do be able to avoid blackguard. To be honest, this is one of the reason why I do not use blackguard in my default list.

Anyway I have already mentioned in the 1st thread please do not brign dragons or deathstar lists into the discussion. Reasons are in the 1st thread.

I have monitored this thread for 2 days, it seems most thing boils down to the pendant, the ring, ASF Blackguard and the hydra. Most important it is about the synergy between the above and the rest of the DE list.

I am very curious that no one ever bothered to discuss the repeater crossbow. I rarely use the blackguard and the hydra. What I have instead are mass DE crossbowmen (with a 20 men unit, you can still double up as a combat unit when the need arises), shades (I used 2 units with GW since the book came out..its fantastic), and darkriders. Firing 82 rxb shots and 12 rbt shots per turn WITHOUT sacrificing melee power is scary. The above only takes up 700 points, there are a lot more points for combat units too (for my case, manticore lord, chariot nobles, execs, knights etc). I find some a combination extremely devastating but unfortunately have never fought it with my TK myself. Once I play against it myself, I will know if it is cheesy :)

anyone else fought a mass rxb army? Your views on it?

Darkspear
14-01-2009, 04:55
My comments are in red, no comments for stuff that i m ok


So general DE player comments so far have been
1) It's not overpowered at all
2) People are only upset because DE used to be easy to beat
3) DE generals are still better than anyone else

Responses to specific units being good:
Hydras aren't that good because their breath attack might no longer be the best one in the game if they suffer some wounds
Black guard don't have ASF if you don't buy the banner (but everyone does so...)
Black guard aren't overpowered because you can always shoot them (VC, OK, WOC, BOC, any combat list and to some extent TK and O*G can't)
OR you can magic missile them (unless the ring of hotek is present of course then you will miscast a lot more even with the basic 2 dice magic missiles saving the DE player's DD to dispel any other MM attempts that don't miscast)

miscasting at 2 DD's? that is 1/36 chance mind you!

repeater crossbows suckbecause if you have moved, multi shot and your opponent is a skirmisher in the trees they are reall hard to hit (hmmm)

Incidentally, DE crossbowman vs. thunderer missile fight, 12" range:
10 thunderers 140 points
14 crossbowmen 140 points.
- fire simultaneously for the sake of argument
Thunderers get +1 to hit:
10*.666*.666=4.44 wounds
DE crossbows get 28*.5*.333= 4.66 wounds
DE winning so far.
Second round 5.34 thunderers left, 9.56 DE left:
Thunderers5.34*.666*.666= 2.37
DE: 19.12*.5*.333= 3.1 kills
DE doing even better now, next round stunties wiped out.
so...still the best core missile troops in the game bar none

they are archers, let us be fair and realistic. Put them 24 inches apart.

Sacrificial dagger: 25 points for 4 extra magic dice per phase in return for killing 4 spearmen. More or less the same as the +1 dice 2nd gen slann get per casting yes? NO! Because you get to choose if you roll the die or not which means you run less chance of a miscast (and even for slann a miscast is a failed spell). Yes you really can wait until you see the dice before you decide to use it or not and your high sorceress gets 5 spells by default. Apparently not a great and cheap magic phase because your sorceress might be in a unit of spearmen that your opponent will somehow autodestroy by looking at it.

I think the point made by others is that spearmen are a unit that can be destroyed easily. A simple cavalry charge can do the trick given the right circumstances

Ring of hotek- apparently not a great item because it reduces the effectiveness of your own magic. Apparently there is some rule in the DE book where you must place your sorcerers in b-t-b with it. Of course if you had three infantry units with a bit of space between them you could put the ring carrier on one end of his unit on the left then the sorceress on the right side of her unit on the right. What do you get? Sorceress can cast with impunity but her unit is still protected by the ring of hotek, isn't that great?

Agree it is one of the uses of the ring. Dealing with the ring will involve a full discussion on tactics though

Dark riders are worse than glade riders apparently because of the penalty for moving and shooting. Well if we move the dark riders and multishot they will hit exactly the same number of times as the glade riders will but will be S3 AP rather than S3. Seems like a win for the DE so far, although there is a difference of 3" in short range (which presumably with an 18" move isn't too difficult to overcome?) The of course if neither has moved the DE crossbow is far better than the glade rider's bow. Also, the dark rider is a lot more powerful in combat due to hatred for him and his horse. What's that you say? Dark riders are also CHEAPER with a repeater crossbow than a glade rider.

Apparently varghulfs are also better than the hydra despite the fact they have 7 less attacks, less wounds, harder to get full VPs, can't rank break and no breath weapon because they can let a unit march if you didn't have a vampire nearby (not very likely)and the unit in question doesn't have the option for the "always march" standard. I assume by etc. you mean M8, Ws5, eternal hatred and can be healed, doesn't equal out at all I reckon.

One thing about the vangulf is that it can tie up a unit easily due to his undead rules couple with regen. A hydra can easily break when it loses combat although i agree that beating a hydra without using uber units could be a challenge.

DE spears aren't that good, clanrats are better because they are cheaper and get 4+ save.
Ok then 25 de spears, against 1 MILLION clanrat where the clanrats have got the charge:
8 clanrats (since they are 10,000 wide): 9(champ)*.5*.5*.666= 1.33 kills1.49
De have 9.668 attacks back with hatred-8.59 hits*.5*.5= 2.14. Clanrats get US so its a draw, DE spearmen have just about managed to hold off 1 million clanrats. Second round:
DE strike first: 11*.666*.5*.5= 1.8 kills. Clanrats get 6.2 attacks back, 1 kill.
So on average DE spearmen will just about hold against 1 million clanrats since the extra width of the clanrats means they get an extra 2 attacks each round. Of course in game they won't be that wide meaning they will lose.

Isn't that a problem with the warhammer game itself? outnumbering do not matter at times

"Hydra are only good against low WS, save and T opponents". Really? Try running some numbers there and see what you get but generally if hydra charges it wins, if charged it might lose against some heavy cavalry.


I could go on all day and I'm not trying to say that everything in DE is broken, but all the DE players giving vague reasons for why DE are underpowered/not overpowered and then accusing those who are saying its' overpowered of lacking reasons is getting a bit trying. Go and REALLY compare the units, DE units are remarkably powerful/overpowered and so are some of the items.

Ward.
14-01-2009, 05:08
This always makes me laugh... have people forgot that both Deamons and Undead have always been* Immune to Psychology?
What does always having been immune to psycology have to do with not taking it into account when balancing the book?

The Red Scourge
14-01-2009, 05:12
anyone else fought a mass rxb army? Your views on it?

Downright nastiness, as the dark elves are able to do a really mobile 'gunline'.

Funny thing about the rxb, it has its rules written in the BRB, but for some unknown reason the DE rxb got armor piercing – despite it being the only army using rxbs in the first place :rolleyes:

limkopi
14-01-2009, 05:24
miscasting at 2 DD's? that is 1/36 chance mind you!

he had meant with ring of hotek, in which case your math is dodgy. it would be 1/6 chance if miscast on double

Kerill
14-01-2009, 05:26
Darkspear I put them 12" apart to give the dwarves the +1 to hit at short range. At long range DE RBTs are even better by comparison:
simultaneous shots again:
dwarves 10*.3333*.666=2.2 kils
Elves: 28*.3333*.333= 3.11 kills

I was actually stacking things AGAINST the DE, in a normal missile duel at more than half range they butcher those stunties even faster.

No doubt someone will pipe in about thunderers/DE against heavy armour, long range:
T3, 2+ save knights (elven heavy cavalry, brets (ward save is the same for both so a non-issue)
Thunderers: 1.1 kills
DEcrossbow unit: 1.55 kills
- DE crossbowmen do better
t3 1+ save knights (empire):
Thunderers: 0.74 kills
DEC: 0.77 kills
DE marginally better
T4 1+ save (chaos knights)
Thunderers:0.55
DEC: 0.51
hunderers marginally better
T4 2+ save (blood knights, new saurus cavalry)
Thunderers: 0.8
DEC: 1.08
DEC better

So at long range DEC also do better against almost every heavy cavalry unit, at short range the thunderer +1 to hit will boost them above DEC.

Condottiere
14-01-2009, 06:33
I think the real problem is synergy; a DE force is dangerous on multiple fronts simultaneously, and you can't ignore one threat or threats while trying to concentrate on another.

Not only are these dangerous elements curiously undercosted, and they are amazingly well protected at rather minimal costs, and neutralize some of the antidotes used to at least control sections of the playing field, like a strong magic phase, or a large monster.

Since DE are fast moving, you don't get much time to shoot at them either, not that I'd be really tempted to get into a pissing match with RXBs at B4.

Sifal
14-01-2009, 09:35
whoever said that varghulf is good at tying up units due to undead and regen i really hope you didn't mean by themselves. they would die at a shockingly quick rate against anything with ranks, cr bonuses or very heavy armour.
Kerill, it is innaccurate to judge what a best unit of its type is by comparing it to its equivalent counterpart. for rxb's you'd have to run a shooting simulation against a large diversity of different enemies and scenarios etc and take into account the dwarf thunderers being better in combat etc. With most survivable character etc one can't that the DE lord is. he might be better against another hard character who has high strength etc but against normal troops, poison, killing blow, powerful magic weapons (such as blade of realities), breath attacks etc these all need consideration before assumptions are made.
Lizardmen temple guard are only stubborn and ITP with a slann mage priest with them who costs, on average, over 400pts by himself.

W0lf
14-01-2009, 11:16
My fellow druchii players really annoy me.

Not all of them but a fair majority put up a massive defensive wall whenever people question the new book.


Oh and DEs are VERY forgiving. Far more so then their elven brethren. If you cant see how DEs are forgiving then i dont know how to show you.. exept to point out;

Our cavalry are one of the cheapest, mess up and lose bloodknights/chaos knights and it hurts a lot more. A flank charge on ether (and both tend to be frenzied) is usually unit dead. Not saying its easy but certainly more forgiving with cold one knights.

Our basic troops (who are V. good) are 7pts with 15 pt command. Thats insanely cheap for what they bring, not to mention when they die its V. unlikely to be more then 200 pts lost.

Black guard as mentioned are the ultimate forgiving unit. Stubborn, ASF = Can't go far wrong.

Hydra.. now whenever i use a hydra i tend to let him be charged in favour of using a breath weapon. Hell T5 with regen and they are V. unlikely to domuch damage vs ~ equal pts cost.

Oh and the arguement 'shoot them' is the most pointless arguement since the dawn of time. This goes for 90% of warhamemr units.

Rubicon
14-01-2009, 11:19
My fellow druchii players really annoy me.

Not all of them but a fair majority put up a massive defensive wall whenever people question the new book.

Dark Elf players are so used to squeezing every last drop out of the armybook that now, because of the new book, they are drowning in a torrent of liquid cheese.

The old book was bad so DElf players got used to maxing out.

The new book is great so DElf players who max out are going to get (justifiably so) cries of cheese.

chaospantz
14-01-2009, 11:44
Been playing DE since I first started fantisy in 2001. I love the new book. Most the units got the upgrade that they needed to make them a more competative army. Few things though that I would have changed though.

Hydra should go up to 200. They got all kinds of upgrades and a point drop, at 200 they would still be considered the standard in most armies.

Ring hotek is prety cheap points wise but rember it affects our mages the same way it dose yours. Would still have made it 30points just to get it out of reach of unit champs though.

Pendant is way to nice. On average it's giving you a 4+ ward against S3 attacks. Would have taken this up to 60 points just to keep it out of the reach of your hero choice.

Probably would have made it so the assassin would be a unit upgrade instead of a free charcter and not let poison be used on there ranged weapons.

Other than that I dont see them as cheesy at all. No 17 power dice spam as far as the eye can see. No unbreakable army of ward saves, just a fairly well balanced army that has a large variety of units.

Mireadur
14-01-2009, 12:05
Oh and the arguement 'shoot them' is the most pointless arguement since the dawn of time. This goes for 90% of warhamemr units.

Also, continuing with Wolf's wise argumentations, lets not forget that DE have actually the most dangerous shooting in game, id say even better than WE. Odds are the DE player will have eliminated enemy's shooting thread way earlier than he can shoot down yours.

Some DE players admit that certain aspects are clearly off in the book (this concept is retarded itself, having the DE army shouldnt really be a factor which affected equanimity at all) but seem to forget/oversight others.

Every single bit of the book has been maximized to the absurd. 15points for a command group may not seem to be off. But certainly it is.

Shades may not seem to be off, but a close examen of the unit will reveal they are not off, they are ''really off'''.

Champions getting +1BS at the same time they get +1A for a lower point cost than any other army may not seem off but, again, it is.

Every basic infantry block being allowed to carry magic standards.

CoK for 27 points...

Dark magic spell list having every spell in it being 1 or even 2 points lower in difficulty than they should be may not be spotted easily, until you begin suffering the casting of them.

The rest of the points: magic items and hydra are of course also valid, although something tells me an increase in 25pts to the hydra would be far from enough...

P.S: oh, please, dont compare the hydra with the vhargulf. It should be obvious by now that vhargulf is another monster in dire need of a point increase and im not talking of 25 points...

P.S2: (edited) someone way back in the thread mentioned CO chariots being ok... Lets re-examinate this 100 point unit again: fear. AS3+ T5, hatred, stupidity on LD9. S4 beasts and Ws5 S4 charioteers.. I believe i dont need to add any smart-ass comment, but this is the best chariot aviable on any army by far.

To summarize and if you have been able of reading down to this point without being already blinded in protectiveness fury or totally agreeing with the comments; to mention only that the book is completely filled with small (some as has been repeatedly mentioned not so small) advantages which altogether conform the book presented to us.

Take it all as you prefer. But reality there's just one.

Darkspear
14-01-2009, 12:08
Been playing DE since I first started fantisy in 2001. I love the new book. Most the units got the upgrade that they needed to make them a more competative army. Few things though that I would have changed though.

I started at 2001 too. It is the Darkelves that bring me to the warhammer hobby

Hydra should go up to 200. They got all kinds of upgrades and a point drop, at 200 they would still be considered the standard in most armies.

Actually we will know soon if it is overpowered when stegadons are released

Ring hotek is prety cheap points wise but rember it affects our mages the same way it dose yours. Would still have made it 30points just to get it out of reach of unit champs though.

Agree


Pendant is way to nice. On average it's giving you a 4+ ward against S3 attacks. Would have taken this up to 60 points just to keep it out of the reach of your hero choice.

To be honest, will anyone bother to give this item to their heroes in the first place? I will not as it will mean losing space for a crucial magic weapon

Probably would have made it so the assassin would be a unit upgrade instead of a free charcter and not let poison be used on there ranged weapons.

I believe manbane on ranged items is a mistake. It will be clarified

Other than that I dont see them as cheesy at all. No 17 power dice spam as far as the eye can see. No unbreakable army of ward saves, just a fairly well balanced army that has a large variety of units.

What are your views on blackguard, Chaospantz?

@Mireadur: Actually the shoot them tactic works, but fair enough it only applies to certain armies.

The SkaerKrow
14-01-2009, 12:13
And (Null Shards excluded), these are all very cheap for what they do. The Black Guard are cheap at basic cost, saying that they have access to other cheap magic items that make them even harder to kill hardly strengthens your caseExcept they aren't cheap for what they do. The Ring of Hotek is as much a danger to the Dark Elf player as it is to the enemy, especially on an infantry block. For a Dark Elf player to get the most out of the Ring of Hotek, they have to abstain from using magic in their own list. And I'm not sure if you noticed, but magic is one of the strengths of the army.


It's funny, if someone says BG are cheap you round on them, and say how we just need to use simple tactics to deal with them (Shoot them, no kidding!), yet presented with a unit that provides a tactical challenge for you to use, nope, sorry, they're garbage, get them away!Except Executioners don't provide a real tactical challenge, they're just a unit with an incredible lack of synergy between the stats of the model and rules of their weapons. And if you're keeping score, you'll notice that Executioners, with their middling one attack apiece and no defense, are the only Elf unit in Warhammer that always strikes last!


Let's be completely honest here: they're not viable because they don't have ASF, and are not stubborn like Black Guard. This is all the High Elves army book's fault, before they came out, people didn't always think you HAD to have all these special rules for a unit to be good. But now? If it aint Stubborn ItP ASF with a champion that makes wizards miscast on a double... it's garbageActually Executioners have never been well regarded, but you only started following Dark Elves when you felt the need to whine about them! :D ;) :angel:

Darkspear
14-01-2009, 12:21
Well SkaerKrow, do not forget the executioners are druchii's highest strength infantry unit. They are a precision weapon, designed to charged and break the enemy in a single charge (combined with spears for combat res).

The trick is not to take too many of them...so in worst cases its just losing about 100 points!

W0lf
14-01-2009, 12:46
Except they aren't cheap for what they do. The Ring of Hotek is as much a danger to the Dark Elf player as it is to the enemy, especially on an infantry block. For a Dark Elf player to get the most out of the Ring of Hotek, they have to abstain from using magic in their own list. And I'm not sure if you noticed, but magic is one of the strengths of the army.

Dark elves are strong in every phase though;

Stong magic
Strong shooting
Strong infantry
Strong movement/speed

Hell many players choose to run a scroll caddy in their armies for ~130 pts. The ring of hotek is not only 100+ pts cheap but better aswell. Yes you have to sacrifice magic but hey if you were going magic heavy anyway (med-magic sucks) then you already have strong magic defence built in.

Oh and feelfree to shoot black guard as the counter... whatcha ganna do about my hydras? shoot them? and counter to dragon? shoot that? cold one knights? Shoot that.

the counter to a lot of units is 'shoot it'. How much shooting do people you play bring?

EvC
14-01-2009, 13:19
Except they aren't cheap for what they do. The Ring of Hotek is as much a danger to the Dark Elf player as it is to the enemy, especially on an infantry block. For a Dark Elf player to get the most out of the Ring of Hotek, they have to abstain from using magic in their own list. And I'm not sure if you noticed, but magic is one of the strengths of the army.

This is exactly what W0lf is talking about, this pretense that the Ring isn't as good as us naysayers are making out. It's rubbish, and I think you know it. The Ring of Hotek is not a danger to any but the most incompetent Dark Elf player. It is extremely easy to use the Ring to protect a lot of your army from magic, whilst never affecting your own Sorceresses. Be honest Skaerkrow, how many times have you found your own Sorceresses within 12" of your own Ring of Hotek, and throwing 2 or more dice at spells?

I love asking those questions, as the answer is either, "Almost never, because I have a brain" which entirely invalidates your own point (which anyone with half a brain could see through anyway), or "Quite often!" in which case you're either a *****, or play in a very fluffy, fun and unique manner that needlessly penalises yourself. And I'm quite certain that you are not a ***** ;)


Except Executioners don't provide a real tactical challenge, they're just a unit with an incredible lack of synergy between the stats of the model and rules of their weapons. And if you're keeping score, you'll notice that Executioners, with their middling one attack apiece and no defense, are the only Elf unit in Warhammer that always strikes last!

Ok, I'll let this point go, 12 points for single-attack Executioners just can't cut it :)


Actually Executioners have never been well regarded, but you only started following Dark Elves when you felt the need to whine about them!

A needless jibe but taken in the spirit it was intended ;) I've followed Dark Elves for a good while, they were always interesting if not powerful. Executioners were always really bad, I think what sums up their old performance is when a unit charged my Skeletons, barely hit, took a casualty in return and got ran down. This edition, they have at least managed to survive a charge from my Black Coach and destroy it, but then that's mostly down to my less-than-stellar dice-rolling ability :D


anyone else fought a mass rxb army? Your views on it?

The worst games of Warhammer I have ever played. Some I won, some I lost. But boring as hell. Who really wants to sit through a 25 minute shooting phase? On top of a massive magic phase as well, of course. So boring that I often forgot to use my own army's special rules, and nearly fell asleep.


With most survivable character etc one can't that the DE lord is. he might be better against another hard character who has high strength etc but against normal troops, poison, killing blow, powerful magic weapons (such as blade of realities), breath attacks etc these all need consideration before assumptions are made.

Against normal troops you can except a 1+ armour save followed by 4+ ward save. Nothing except an Arch Lector on War Altar beats that. Poison is irrelevent, as it still has Strength. Killing Blow is a bummer on any US1-2 model that hasn't paid for situational immunity to it, powerful magic weapons? They're usually high-strength, no-one else gets a 2+ ward against them, not even Malekith. Breath attacks?!

--------------------------------
And just tp typify the thread: some Dark Elf players are running a tournament, and have decided that Daemons and Vampire Counts are too strong, and so on top of strick restrictions, only get 2000 points while most other armies get 2250 points (And really weak ones get 2500 points). My mate is playing in the tournament with his Dark Elves and asked me for a game using the tournament rules, where I'd be using my Vampires. Just think about that for a second, I'm expected to play a game with a 250 point disadvantage because some Dark Elf players are unable to grasp that their army is quite powerful now. I said no way, of course, we play even and fair or not at all.

W0lf
14-01-2009, 13:29
My only real gripe with executioners is that they cant have a noble join them.

If icould add a noble BSB with ether;

Hag graef, heavy armour, seacloak,shield, GW

OR

1+, Crimson death.

Then i would field them every game. Even if only for the models. Oh and please 'exectuioners suck' is also a lame arguement for DE not being broken. I personally think that Blood letters and nurglings suck... so daemons are fine?

EvC
14-01-2009, 13:39
Yeah, I too think that's the biggest problem with Executioners, Khainite so no good characters in the unit. I suppose they can work, if kept near a Cauldron, and with a zillion-attack Assassin in them, but at a point more, you'd always take Black Guard.

theunwantedbeing
14-01-2009, 13:46
So...a DE army without 2 hydra's, that has no black guard pendant or ring is not cheesy or overpowered and isnt a top tier army anymore?

Max_Killfactor
14-01-2009, 13:54
Dark Elf players are so used to squeezing every last drop out of the armybook that now, because of the new book, they are drowning in a torrent of liquid cheese.

The old book was bad so DElf players got used to maxing out.

The new book is great so DElf players who max out are going to get (justifiably so) cries of cheese.

I like his line of thinking. This is what happened to me. My old DE list was maxxed out as best I could to compete with my 2 primary opponents (VC/WE and HE/TK)

With the new book I played with my old list and was destroying my friends who had more 'friendly' lists. I had to cut back a bit in order to avoid a powergaming arms race.

I don't think dark elf players are very good at self-control.


Hydra should go up to 200. They got all kinds of upgrades and a point drop, at 200 they would still be considered the standard in most armies.

Ring hotek is prety cheap points wise but rember it affects our mages the same way it dose yours. Would still have made it 30points just to get it out of reach of unit champs though.

Pendant is way to nice. On average it's giving you a 4+ ward against S3 attacks. Would have taken this up to 60 points just to keep it out of the reach of your hero choice.

Probably would have made it so the assassin would be a unit upgrade instead of a free charcter and not let poison be used on there ranged weapons.

Other than that I dont see them as cheesy at all. No 17 power dice spam as far as the eye can see. No unbreakable army of ward saves, just a fairly well balanced army that has a large variety of units.

I agree with his thoughts also. I think they are all pretty reasonable and would cut back on a lot of the complaining. I see the Pendant being used on heroes/bsbs along with the armor piercing great weapon. It is a nasty combo than can tie up or beat a lot of lord characters. If a 4+ ward is around 40 to 45 points, then the pendant should at least be 55 imo.

EvC
14-01-2009, 14:03
So...a DE army without 2 hydra's, that has no black guard pendant or ring is not cheesy or overpowered and isnt a top tier army anymore?

Considered holistically, not cheesy, but still powerful enough to compete at the top. Two Hydras isn't so bad really, people get too worked up over the "multiple terror causer" aspect, presumably forgetting that units only take one terror test per game. The Black Guard, ASF Banner, Ring and Pendant are all fine, but used in moderation please! When I see all four in one army list it really does make me groan, especially if they're all used with maximal efficiency: characters to benefit from ASF in Black Guard unit, Ring placed so that level 4 can cast without being hit by magic herself, Pendant on top of massive armour save/ regen, etc. S7 throwing stars, barely mentioned in this thread, are the actual worst thing about the army, that I despise (The others I don't individually dislike).

But the thing is, you can make strong Dark Elf lists without all these things, just like you can make strong Daemon lists without min-maxing and Vampire Counts armies without 15 power dice, Helm and Drakenhof. If you're playing those kinds of people, I certainly can't begrudge taking all the strong stuff, just spare a thought of us that want a game that's based around tactics and fun and not just loading out on ALL the best magic items and hoping for dice to see you through ;)

*SQUEE*
14-01-2009, 14:08
I play Dark Elves and have for years. I played them when they sucked and I play them now when they rock.

I have never taken two Hydra's in a single list. Two Hydra's is clearly broken, anyone who takes two Hydra's is not being a friendly gamer. The only reason I would ever take two Hydra's is too teach a power gamer a lessen.

I have used the Pendant and it is a good item. People who claim it is overpowered are a little on the crazy in my mind as if you buy it for a character all they are really doing is surviving and not killing and you will not make your points back. The only time I can see it as an issue is if it is on a character mounted on a Dragon as it is almost always better to kill the rider, taking a Dragon in anything under 4k games is being a **** anyways. I prefer to put my Pendant on a Sorceress Lord. t giver her a chance not to explode when attacked by anything.

The Ring gives the DE player an option not to take magic. I love this fact and use it when I don't feel like playing a blasty list. If you can control yourself and toss small spells at the DE player then you will CRUSH the magic phase. I suggest you learn this tactic when facing the ring, if you are tossing 3-5 dice at a spell when you know the ring is out there then you deserve what you get.

I have never used black Guard but clearly see that they are an elite unit in warhammer. Please put the cost of the ASF banner into the model cost when you complain about them tho. If the Executioners could take the ASF banner as easily as the Black Guard you would hear people complaining about them as well.

W0lf
14-01-2009, 14:08
If you take ring/pendant, black guard and hydras from the list they are still easily competitive.

So even when removing everything thats good about the book they still work.

Thats like saying if you take Chaos knights from the warriors book they are still a powerful army. (they just arnt. face it)

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 14:35
I field my Sorceress in the circumferance of the Ring of Hotek every game.

It's called the Sorceror's Familiar :skull:

EvC
14-01-2009, 14:42
I have used the Pendant and it is a good item. People who claim it is overpowered are a little on the crazy in my mind as if you buy it for a character all they are really doing is surviving and not killing and you will not make your points back.

Biggest fallacy of the thread. Most people pay MORE than 35 points to give their combat Lords a ward save (or just regen if Chaos!) to make them more surviveable. But that doesn't stop the Dreadlord from being able to kill stuff. At the very least, he should have 4 WS7 attacks (with hatred) at S6, which isn't a bad start. It's not hard to give him Potion of Strength and Hydra Blade as well, which can pump him up to 7 S7 attacks (for one round). Or many other nice little combos- it's easy to do when you can buy such a great armour save straight off and your ward save is so cheap. People say these Dreadlords can't kill anything (Whilst also imploring us to ignore the fact they might be on a Dragon), but it's just not true! The last one I faced (with this setup) killed my Black Coach (Worth it to get his LD10 bubble away from his main lines), some wolfs (big whoop) and half a unit of Wraiths, not bad for a 250 point character who didn't give up any points.

Of course, I could have just played better ;) But I needed the Black Coach for the impacts on the Black Guard since they ASF, and the 1/12 chance of my Banshee killing the unkillable Dreadlord outright was well worth the risk with my Wraiths :D

Now I don't begrudge Dark Elf players a good ward save on a powerful chaarcter. But you have to be blind if you don't see how great these things are. You'll never hear me try and pretend the Helm of Command isn't a steal for 30 points, or that the Drakenhof Banner can't ruin games. But then I don't have the same sense of "entitlement" that I see in many Dark Elf players.

AUN'SHI
14-01-2009, 15:28
Are you serious DE cheesy? ummm no they are not cheesy if you want to see cheesy look at the deamons/VC. From what I hear about the Deamons even if you try to make a crappy list they are still cheesy. And the ever raiseing VC.

The T3 elves, have maybe and this is a stretch 1 thing that can be considered maybe not cheesy but better than average is 2 hydras.

But in no way would I consider the DE cheesy...

Their magic is so..so, magic items yeah we got about 3-4 good ones vs the rest, that are basically crap or 1 use only.

I can't really see how the DE can be considered cheesy... I still don't see why people are so scared of a lord that is almost unkillable that can barley put out any damage..

Aglemar
14-01-2009, 15:32
No one said they couldn't kill anything, what people say is they don't compare to other combat lords in terms of power. So if you spend your entire points for your lord, you are able to get 7 strength 7 attacks 33% of the time for one round. So for one round in every three games our lord matches the combat power of other armies lords so he must be alright? More often the lord has 4 STR 6 attacks, and while that is an good amount of damage it can't compare to most combat lord characters. Our characters cant out kill 1+ save lords with 7 STR 7 attacks and mounts with 3 STR 5 KB attacks and crazy stuff like that through offense, it wouldn't be reasonable to expect that, so the dark elf way uses defense instead, which gives a balancing force while not making them even deadlier to units then the thing they are supposed to counter. I agree that the pendant is very strong, but how else can we keep our lord alive in those kinds of fight without escalating power even more?

Pendant lords are annoying, but on a dragon a pendant isn't really worth as much. A ring of darkness would likely be more effective as you don't want to be hit by ranged attack, and in close combat you want to be killing everything to prevent being struck back. A dragon lord can pick his battles, the foot lord is there to protect your lines from enemy characters.

W0lf
14-01-2009, 15:44
Are you serious DE cheesy? ummm no they are not cheesy if you want to see cheesy look at the deamons/VC. From what I hear about the Deamons even if you try to make a crappy list they are still cheesy. And the ever raiseing VC.

Funny then how DEs are easily on par with those 2 from tourny results?

Maybe its just that DEs attract highly skilled players as they arnt very forgiving. [/drippingwithsarcasm]

Frankly
14-01-2009, 15:49
I really like DE, the book is fun to play against and fun to play ... whats the problem?

DarkTerror
14-01-2009, 16:50
I really like DE, the book is fun to play against and fun to play ... whats the problem?

I agree completely. Dark Elves are one of my favorite armies to play against (assuming no 2 Hydras or a Dragon, but I hate Dragons in any army).

So what's all the fuss? The only armies which I don't want to play are VC and DoC on a regular basis. I think that fairly clearly means they're not nearly as cheesy as these two.

And they're fun to play against. Bottom line, that's where the cheese bar gets set.

Kerill
14-01-2009, 17:06
There are actually a few fallacies here, but first I want to address squee's statements

"The Ring gives the DE player an option not to take magic. I love this fact and use it when I don't feel like playing a blasty list. If you can control yourself and toss small spells at the DE player then you will CRUSH the magic phase. I suggest you learn this tactic when facing the ring, if you are tossing 3-5 dice at a spell when you know the ring is out there then you deserve what you get."

So if I take an level 4 mage for example and he rolls 1,4,5,6 for spells I deserve to lose if I try and cast any spell apart from the default one (for my HE archmage that would be the 5+ ward btw which will apparently CRUSH the DE army).

And this:
"I have used the Pendant and it is a good item. People who claim it is overpowered are a little on the crazy in my mind as if you buy it for a character all they are really doing is surviving and not killing and you will not make your points back."
The pendant doesn't stop you from attacking mate. Add a great weapon alone and thats 4 Ws7 S6 attacks with hatred. Even if you aren't in the compulsory ASF unit it doesn't matter if you strike last since you are almost invincible to any attack in the game anyway. I played 4th and 5th edition herohammer and I can assure youthat the pendant would be the first item taken by the lord of any army since it is the best defensive item ever. Bar none. Yes better than the black amulet and golden helm of atrazar. Better than archaons 3+ ward.

Then the whole argument of skaercrows where he is sticking to his guns that the ring of hotek will nerf your own magic phase because its impossibly to conceive of using the focus familiar or putting your sorcerer just out of range of it. And apparently its the rest of the WH community who are idiots and have to use tactics.

Then we have the various posters on shades and blackguard stating we should use a lot of shooting and magic to take out these units. Great, now we all need to take a gunline against DE to even stand a chance (and DE can outshoot a puregunline anyway). Oh but wait magic won't work because of a 25 point item making any half threatening spell or even a 2D6 S4 magic missile extremely risky. And hang on, artillery will be taken out easily by harpies second or third turn anyway.

Do DE players really consider how much effect this item has?
- It greatly increases chance of miscast, especially for any half powerful spell, but also doubles the chance of miscast on a basic 5+ magic missile. But this is only a small part of the effect:
i) The miscast may damage or kill the opposing mage (not likely most of the time but for O&G and OK in particular this is massive), or have a wide number of bad effects for your opponent.
ii) A 2/3/4 dice spell that has miscast that you would have wanted to dispel saves you 3/4/5 dice or a scroll for the next spell they cast. Each miscast spell essentially allows you to stop another spell of the same level whilst avoiding the possibility of rolling low on your dispel dice in the first place.
iii) It prevents any chance of IF
iv) The ring forces your opponents to roll fewer dice at spells in order to prevent miscasts which means they will fail to reach the casting number more often (meaning you have saved dispel dice and therefore have more to dispel the next spell.

The ring is FAR FAR more effective at stopping magic than the 75 point -2 casting banner against one lore that daemons get. And yet many daemon armies in GT's have that banner and daemons are without a doubt "overpowered". The ring is not overcosted at all, it is simply a broken item that should not exist.

@Darkspear, what quality stegadons will be when released has no bearing at all on the overpoweredness of the warhydra. If stegadons get 10 S10 Ws10 attacks and are unbreakable it will not change the fact that warhydras are overpowered. It will just mean that stegadons are obscenely overpowered.
Should DE be nerfed and have all their cool stuff removed/greatly increased in points so they can be easily beaten by a snotling horde. No, and I don't think anyone in this thread is trying to kill the DE, some people agreeing they are OP are DE players.
This is another fallacy I'd like to point out, one army having something overpowered (not just powerful, overpowered) does NOT justify another army getting something just as bad or worse, it means both should be nerfed.

Another fallacy- DE have terrible items apart from these. I'm sure this part will get some heat but compare the remaining DE to other armybooks in the game and I think you will find that DE still have a lot of very useful and cool items, more so than most other armies, but why bother trying them when the ones mentioned are so much better than anything in the game or has been in WH since 4th edition.

Anyway, changes for DE IMO to make them strong but not overpowered like daemons?
1) Hydra 250 points. Its definitely worth it, if it was an option in ANY of my armies I would take it. If I was a DE player I would still take it.
2) Shades Bs4 or +2 points. Either is fine with me.
3) Manbane fixed for throwing stars
4) Ring of hotek ceases to exist, pendant becomes a 4+ ward (and the cheapest full 4+ ward in warhammer by far before anyone starts complaining).
5) The sacrificial dagger must be declared to use before other dice are rolled (still very powerful but not as overpowered).
6) Black guard +1 point
7) Cauldron of blood gets T6, 3 wounds and a 3+ ward save and can be damaged by shooting/magic (randomise hits as for any war machine)

Would the DE list become complete crap no because:
1) Still have incredibly powerful magic with very good arcane items
2) Still have the RXB for warriors and dark riders, the best missile weapon in the game
3) Shades would still be very useful and would still be the best dual purpose scout in the game by far. Probably still the best scouts.
4) You still have the ASF blackguard. Every army deserves something hard and they will still be very hard and have great synergy with the cauldron, but you will have to pay 20 points more for the unit.
5) Best chariot in the game
6) Best light cavalry in the game
7) Only core flier in the game and a useful one at that
8) An incredibly cheap and useful warrior unit.
9) Great synergy and a range of army builds

They would still be a very strong army, stronger than HE certainly but at least they will be slightly more fun to play against and different armies can take them on and win apart from VC, Daemons and gunlines.

Executioners I would drop to S3 but give A2, price increase to 13 points. Should make them useful. Alternatively keep them as they are and give them a fanatic rule which allows the front row to attack even if killed (like the old wyvern tail)
Witch elves seem fine to me, they just aren't as insanely good as blackguard and you have to deal with frenzy.
Corsairs aren't that bad, not sure how to make them a bit better, perhaps removing the multiple shots penalty for handbows would help and increase handbow range to 12"

This would leave DE with a great powerful army, lots of synergy and every unit would have its place or be useful enough to take in some builds.


I'm not having a go at DE in general or DE players altogether, I do find it somewhat annoying that it is a seriously overpowered book but so many DE players are trying to deny it. DE deserve a cool book, they deserve an interesting book. Overpowered books are not cool for your opponent and they are not cool for DE players either, trust me I have a daemon army.

For the record I play:
DOC (shelved since they are too powerful, I would WELCOME GW balancing them better, and have quite a few thoughts on the matter so I can play with them again)
WOC
BOC
HE
WE
TK
VC- and yes there are serious problems here that need to be addressed too. Helm of command is far too cheap and should be easier to counteract. Regen banner is BROKEN atm and would need serious changes.

Emeraldw
14-01-2009, 17:28
I haven't played the new dark elves a whole lot, but I certainly agree with the under costing of a few magic items and the ASF banner. Black Guards that are stubborn on LD9 isn't so bad. ITP, Stubborn on LD9 is nasty, but not unbeatable. ITP, Stubborn on LD9, ASF with I6 is evil. Especially since they reroll hits in all rounds of combat and are 13pts a model (are you kidding me!? Even Swordmasters are 15).

I was reading the earlier posts and someone said that shades can't cause any damage. I disagree. 20 shots from a 10 man unit at a warmachine crew can most certainly cause damage. And the Great Weapons with hatred actually make them decent for attacking the rear of a unit. They are really good scouts.

I didn't think about the dragon the dragon with hatred, that could be mean.

Finally, the argument that you should just "shoot" any unit to counter it is absurd. There is only a finite amount of shooting in any non gunline list. And unless your empire with Great Cannons (the counter to anything? :D) It's not that easy to blow away a large creature with shooting. I don't know about anyone else, but in my HE's I take one unit of archers and 2 RBT's. In my Wood Elves I have maybe 30 odd bows but all Str 3 shooting.

I don't know about overpowered but there are some really strong options in there that might be a bit over the line. The person who posted the last GT results showed that Daemons and Vampire Counts are still fantastic, but there were plenty of Dark Elves around too.

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 17:41
Find the ring, stop casting spells near it, pick off his support, kill the ring wielder.

It's usually on Black Guard or the Cold One Knight coming up your flank, it's really not that hard to predict against it...is it?

Mind, I managed to get Gateway off against the Gate ones by rolling 1,2,3,4,5...

Amused I was indeed :D

Draconian77
14-01-2009, 17:41
Uh-huh. Typing something doesn't make it fact. Obviously your opinions are set in stone but honestly some of your reasoning is obviously childish and simplistic.

"Great, now we all need to take a gunline against DE to even stand a chance"

No, you really don't. Gunlines are a very poor choice for taking on DE.
So is pure magic fest(Due to either high DD or the Ring)
So is pure combat(Fast army with lots of redirectors)

All in all a balanced army used competantly will compete with the DE.

"but why bother trying them when the ones mentioned are so much better than anything in the game or has been in WH since 4th edition."

...Opinion.

"1) Hydra 250 points. Its definitely worth it, if it was an option in ANY of my armies I would take it. If I was a DE player I would still take it."

I'm sure your perfectly neutral stand point is worth putting faith in... 200pts is much more realistic and I would drop Reapers to 85pts a pop to develop some competition.

"2) Shades Bs4 or +2 points. Either is fine with me."

Shades are fine. Nothing makes them too powerful. For the love of Khaine, 10 of them for 180pts would on average shoot down about 2.22Chaos Warriors a turn. (Assuming moving, multi-shot and short range) Do you really have a problem with that?

Editited.

"3) Manbane fixed for throwing stars"

90% of DE players I know play it as S6. If you meet a player who players it at S7 then he is most likely a WAAC player anyway so it wouldn't matter what army he used, you would see the cheesiest combos.

"4) Ring of hotek ceases to exist, pendant becomes a 4+ ward (and the cheapest full 4+ ward in warhammer by far before anyone starts complaining)."

Again, I ask how many Lords do people actually "kill" these days? If the Pendant is causing you to lose your relying too much on either a large monster or an uber-character. If your relying on these things..., well, I'll leave that statement at that.

"5) The sacrificial dagger must be declared to use before other dice are rolled (still very powerful but not as overpowered)."

Its not overpowered as it stands. It genuinely has risks that go hand in hand with it. It limits a casters mobility(Which in turn limits what targets can be targetted by certain spells) and, due to being best on a Lv3-4 caster it creates a unit which gives up nearly 600pts if you wipe it out.

"6) Black guard +1 point"

What a simple "fix". I have a much better idea(opinion), make Executioners useful so that they compete with Black Guard. A ward save in combat only and killing blow on 5+ maybe?

"7) Cauldron of blood gets T6, 3 wounds and a 3+ ward save and can be damaged by shooting/magic (randomise hits as for any war machine)"

Cauldren of Blood overpowered? Really? How exactly?

Sifal
14-01-2009, 18:25
stegadons have four attacks. they cost 250 - 290 points (if i remember correctly). they do d6+1 impact hits, are stubborn and always unit strength 10. don't have lizardmen book with me just now but they have reasonable toughness and wounds, nothing to write home about. 3+ save on normal stegs, 2+ on ancients. they are reasonable but wont do much by themselves as hydras can, they are a survivable back up unit, support charge or hold stuff up, really not awe-inspiring. decent but kind of ble. for 210 points the carnosaur is good, str7, d3 wounds. quite killy but suffers from stupid blood frenzy stupidness.
this is nothing to with DE obviously but people were talking about them. point for point hydra is far superior to either of these.
And i don't get why people think VC are so cheesy, you just need to drastically change tactics against them, as with many armies. they are strong but not so much as daemons imo.

neXus6
14-01-2009, 18:34
I agree completely. Dark Elves are one of my favorite armies to play against (assuming no 2 Hydras or a Dragon, but I hate Dragons in any army).

So what's all the fuss? The only armies which I don't want to play are VC and DoC on a regular basis. I think that fairly clearly means they're not nearly as cheesy as these two.

And they're fun to play against. Bottom line, that's where the cheese bar gets set.

Sigh...

You cant say "assuming no 2 Hydras or a Dragon, but I hate Dragons in any army" but then flat out level cheese acusations at two other armies as you are rather obviously only talking about cheesy armies from those lists. Either judge all balanced lists against each other or all WAAC lists against each other. You can't pick balanced from one and WAAC from another. :rolleyes:

A WAAC list from any army is just as boring to play against. Balanced Daemon armies are fun to play against, as are balanced Vampires, as are balanced Dark Elves.

WAAC Dark Elf lists on the other hand are very much up their with Vampire counts WAAC lists. It just so happens that GW in their rush to sell models made an abusable scapegoat in the form of Daemons, but those real daemon players who know how to play for fun, and also construct a balanced list to the REAL background and limits not GW rubbish pantheon of gods + special characters + all the hardest units crap make perfectly good armies.

Bac5665
14-01-2009, 18:40
Stegs and Hydras are about the same in combat. (I've run the numbers in a different thread, I don't feel like doing it again.) Stegs hit a little harder on the charge, (not much harder, mind you, but a little,) and Hydras hit harder, (not a huge amount harder, but enough to notice,) every other time. Combine this with equal survivability, (Stegs are T6, but Hydras have regen,) and add in: Hydra has the better ranged weapon, and better "crew" and is more maneuverable, and you have your analysis.

Charge: Steg
Any other combat: Hydra
Survivability: Tie
Ranged: Hydra
Crew: Hydra
Maneuverability: Hydra.

Why are stegs 60 points more, even in the new book that's supposed to be balanced with the DE book:rolleyes::confused::eyebrows:?

neXus6
14-01-2009, 18:42
Well obviously Skinks need to learn that running along side the stegadon makes it a skirmisher, while sitting on top of it makes it run into trees.
:rolleyes:
I agree it is pretty silly.

Draconian77
14-01-2009, 18:47
Stubborn is always worth paying for.

Besides taking Stegadons doesn't really detract from a Lizardman army, taking Hydras means you lose out on Reapers which are a good answer to large flying monsters or units of heavily armoured(1+) knights(Which Rxbmen can't touch)

I dont think its worth 60pts more than a Hydra but then again no one thinks the Hydra is worth what it costs now in the first place.

YTY
14-01-2009, 18:49
Draconian77, you are only saying those same things again and again as a response of the other posters' points. You really believe that the right way to fix black guard (said to be overpowered) is to make executioners better? That's ridiculous. Then everybody would have black guard and exes and the army would be called even cheesier.

Yes, I think that Dark elves are a bit overpowered. Not everything, but a lot of things that have already been pointed out.

Shades are not too powerful? Tell that to my poor waywatchers and Glade guard scouts which are more expensive and even worse. Where can you find scouting skirmishers with S5 and reroll misses on first round. They aren't there for shooting swordsmen.

The dagger has risks? Let me laugh. You were putting the mage in the unit anyway, eh? The dagger should be limited to 1 use per turn. That would be still pretty good.

Dark Elves are mediocre in magic? Unlimited PD per cast is pretty good if you need to cast that spell. VERY good lore. Their magic may not compete with VC but it is good.

What I was really going to say was this: Almost every army has something very powerful and undercosted. The top three -armies happen to have a lot of these undercosted or just plain stupid items, point costs etc. What is the issue here, however, is that you and some other dark elf players (not all though) do not admit that you have your own cheese as well as DOC and VC have. Its just ridiculous to say that there's nothing wrong with shades, the hydra, pendant, ring and black guard with ASF-banner.

Kerill
14-01-2009, 19:07
@Draconian:
War hydra we can agree to disagree.
RBTs I will just disagree, they are very useful as is. Super wonderful? No but useful. They still seem to be taken a fair bit so don't need much of a boost.

10 Shades with BS5 vs. empire swords (and are moving about for some reason, first turn I can see it due to scout rules, regardless...)
20 shots, hits on 4+ (-2 penalty), wound on 4+, 6+ save (AP):
20*.5*.5*.8333= 4.16, NOT 2.5.
With BS4 it would be 2.776 (NOT 2.5) and yes that would be better
26 swordsmen FC cost 181 points. Lets assume the shades are up against an equal pointed unit of said swordsmen and have to move every turn to get out of charge arc
First turn of shooting- no problem, 22 left
Second turn- possible panic test, 18 left
Third turn- possible panic test, 14 left,down to 1 ranks
Fourth turn- shades can charge 6.22 hits, 5.2 wounds, 4 kills after saves (1 attack back, 2 if champ survived, 0.25-0.5 wounds). US equal, shades win. Of course you would probably be better off just shooting the unit to death.

Of course warhammer doesn't happen in a vacuum so the above is just the maths to show that yes those shots really do add up, but then the ideal target for shades certainly isn't empire swordsmen. Shooting against fast cavalry that's 4 dead light horsemen (80 points or so) in one turn of shooting. Its 3 dragon princes/grail knights dead in two turns of shooting (90-114? points) and its even more effective after the first turn if they don't have to move anymore.

Oh and apart from all that they are scouts which is a useful ability on its own.

And they just don't shoot, your units of shades also pack quite a combat wallop, especially in the flanks or rear. Great utility unit Bs4 OR 5

I did try to give suggestions for executioners btw. And yes I think BG are a little too cheap.

Cauldron of blood- T6 3+ ward should keep it alive most of the time but I don't think anything should be indestructible in warhammer. Its a great unit, adds a lot of synergy to the army but a great cannon shot smack bang on should have a chance to destroy it.

Anyway as for "relying on an uber character too much", who says I am, but if someone has paid 600 points for captain uber killy death machine those 600 points should be usable on the table. Having a character on the corner of the unit able to completely negate the frontal or flank charge of said unit for 35 points is not at all fair. And I have never played with a bloodthirster or dragon rider. The point is not whether it affects ME, the point is if it is unbalanced or not- which it is.

Then add in the fact that said unit is ASF, ITP stubborn and protected from magic, with a boatload of attacks (maybe KB, but lets leave the cauldron out for the sake of argument) with an extra 4 S6 re-rollable attacks from the character and yes you have a points denial deathstar. And points denial armies are not fun and this particular build is immune to what a lot of armies can do against it which makes it overpowered.

theunwantedbeing
14-01-2009, 19:23
18pt no save t3 shades are too good eh?
Who'de of thought it?

Bound spells dont work, DE's have too much magic dice in that army that has a lord with the pendant and regen and a hag on a couldren dont they?
Shooting doesnt work as they're so hard to hit (always hididng in soft cover at least) so -2 to hit minimum, plus harpies will always stop enemy units shooting at them, as will dark riders.

Similarly there is always a big unit of black guard with the ASF banner being unkillable.
Backed by 2 hydra's as well and everything in the army is kept safe by the ring of hotek.

Plus DE magic is far too good, mages who get free powerdice and have no limit to how many dice they use and will always be casting out of range of the ring of hotek.

Plus the couldren is indestructible and nothing ever scatters onto the crew except things that never get past the ward save they get.

And you cant kill the harpies or dark riders as you are too busy trying to shoot at the hydra's or couldrens, but of course you cant shoot at them as your being killed by the harpies and dark riders you never shot at.

Plus any powerful character you have is forced to fight against the DE lord who has the pendant and regen who can never be harmed ever and then loses to combat resolution and get's run down. Plus the DE lord kills him before that happens with his might 5 st6 attacks that re-roll misses as that easily kills any enemy lord.

PARTYCHICORITA
14-01-2009, 20:00
I could go on all day and I'm not trying to say that everything in DE is broken, but all the DE players giving vague reasons for why DE are underpowered/not overpowered and then accusing those who are saying its' overpowered of lacking reasons is getting a bit trying. Go and REALLY compare the units, DE units are remarkably powerful/overpowered and so are some of the items.

This proves nothing. You have only pointed out to DE units/items beeing good, or very good at best. Every good thing the DE have can be counter with decent strategy. Are armies suppose to be bad or boring in order to prevent people from whinning?

DE can be beaten and when they lose the lose badly. From seeing this thread i only confirmed something i was already pretty sure about: HE and DE had terrible books in 6th edition and have good ones in 7th and people do have a hard time dealing with armies they use to beat easly.

Frankly
14-01-2009, 20:01
@Draconian:

10 Shades with BS5 ....20 shots.

I forgot they even shot. ;)

18pts for a scouting model with WS5 hatred and GWs is worth that much ... oh and they can shot.

Add a (not so)hidden assassin in the unit and its effectively able to handle most every other light supporting unit i.e flyers, skirmishers, light cavalry the opponent wants to charge into it. Ethereal is the only problem I've had.

A great unit, I love using them.


@unwantedbeing. how did you fit all that into one armylist? Because I'm running alot of 2k lists at the moment and I'm fining it hard to get 2 units of shades + assassins into my list, because of that points limit.

Havock
14-01-2009, 20:06
DE has some really good options which, if you toss them together can make a really hardballs list; however, when it comes to the ability to build interesting and fun lists, I think the DE army is one of the best books written; it's just that the war hydra should have been 200 pts among other things.
I see Wolf ninja'ed me :p

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 20:09
In the 8 or so games I've used Dark Elves/proxxy, borrow or online, I've not used the Pendant, a Hydra, a Dragon, or the Ring...

I won not because of cheese....

But because I had 25 deployments...

These items are not the be all and end all of Dark Elves. They just monopolise the current Tournament Scene, just like SAD for Skaven once did, and it'll fade in time.

spartan41
14-01-2009, 20:52
Why is it that Even when I bring a "cheesy" DE army(literaly taking everything pointed out in this thread, BG, 2 hydras, shades, Magic Items) I can never beat my friends LM army, and lose to VC and Dwarfs about 70%of the time. Prolly because he's better than me and knows how to use his army... I consider myself a pretty good player and when I play with wood elves I usualy do better than I do with my DE army, esp against my friends LM..

In my eyes everyone complaining or saying they should be this or X amount of points b are in the wrong game... Go play chess if you want everything inevery army to be the similiar and don't want every game to be the same tatic wise. It seems like its people who are so used to winning because they think they are amazing players who aer losing to DE lists and all of a sudden they are cheesy? I'd say balanced. Win some lose some.

stonehorse
14-01-2009, 21:00
I can't wait to see the cries that will happen when Warhammer: Gnoblars is released.

Oh my God they are all toughness 2... my army is soo underpoered next them, how will I ever beat these Gnoblars... It is all GW's fault!

I'm starting to think that people will just cry 'cheese' over anything they can't work out a tactic to deal with, it is as if their simple minds only work with deploy 24" apart and then engage each other in frontal combat.

Here is a novel idea... stop spending all the energy on crying, and go and play some games, remember the hobby is meant to be fun.

W0lf
14-01-2009, 21:04
Good assumption made that we all cry cheese and can't beat said cheese.

i can happily beat DE players all day long, hell ive won more games vs them then lost (people in my group have a habbit of copying my druchi lists and playing them badly).

That dosnt mean they shudnt be fixed. Likewise ive beaten daemons far more then ive lost to them... does that mean they are underpowered?

Frankly
14-01-2009, 21:16
... I really feel that the Ring of Hotek is blown out of proportion by people saying it protects most or all of the DE army, it really isn't hard to work around once someone knows where it is.


Yeah, its a weird little item, the more people get used to it and less effect its going to having on the spell enemy casting. I'm not sure how undercosted it is, or if it is at all. I've played about 20 odd games with it in a pretty fast list and the more people come up against it the less it becomes a major problem and the more it just bothers them than anything else.

Then there's a lot of good default spells around at the moment i.e. flicker, nehek, black arts etc, etc. they can be cast on one dice until you position away from the ring.

I like it because its another option for players to take anti-magic without taking scroll caddies.

Havock
14-01-2009, 22:56
In the 8 or so games I've used Dark Elves/proxxy, borrow or online, I've not used the Pendant, a Hydra, a Dragon, or the Ring...


If I were to make a DE list, I'd not even bothger with the pendant on any hero/lord save perhaps a wizard. Just move him around agressively, people will think he has 'that thing' :p

W0lf
14-01-2009, 23:11
I like it because its another option for players to take anti-magic without taking scroll caddies.

yes and i agree, hence why i don't think it should be removed. If anything the game needs more of these items, not less.

The only gripe is that its too good imo (i take it every game for context).

I think 30 pts would be a small fix that stops people putting it on unit champs and/or combining it with other items (I use noble with 1+ save and the ring personally).

Oh and as for the pendant... i used to argue it was fine and people moaned too much... then i took a dreadlord with pendant in a unit of black guard... you quite literally have to kill them to a man when the BSB is around.

(i field them 7x3 with champ with crimson death and ASF. Lord has regen + Potions with a GW. 4 S9 with hatred ASF = bye bye chaos knights.)

EvC
14-01-2009, 23:42
I really feel that the Ring of Hotek is blown out of proportion by people saying it protects most or all of the DE army, it really isn't hard to work around once someone knows where it is.[/COLOR]

What I want to know is, if it's so easy for the opponent to deal with the Ring of Hotek and avoid its detrimental effects, why have so many Dark Elf players in this thread commented how the Ring is so damaging to the Dark Elf's own magic phase? I mean, the Dark Elf player controls each of those models' movement, yet he somehow can't seem to keep the two models more than 12" apart. Yet his opponent, somehow, is expected to be able to still have a valid magic phase even when his Dark Elf opponent has trouble managing to do the same thing...

Anyway, two good games against Dark Elves tonight. Only had the Pendant on a Supreme Sorceress riding a Dragon and ASF banner on Black Guard, not so tricksy then. Black Guard easy to deal with hitting them with Wraiths and Black Coach; thankfully my opponent agreed to play the throwing stars as S6 rather than S7. Two double ones in a row turned a massacre for me into a draw, great dice eh? Second game was against a list lead by Crone Hellebrone, who killed 25 Zombies in two turns of combat (plus crumbling), before a Necromancer repeated the same trick as before and I lost interest in the game and ended up with another draw. Both armies got a tricksy rating of 2/5, fun of 4/5 :D

Draconian77
15-01-2009, 01:10
Draconian77, you are only saying those same things again and again as a response of the other posters' points. You really believe that the right way to fix black guard (said to be overpowered) is to make executioners better? That's ridiculous. Then everybody would have black guard and exes and the army would be called even cheesier.

How is this ridiculous? If two things are very good a decision has to made made whether to include two small units of them, 2 large units of them or 1 large unit of one of them(In say a standard 2000pt game)

Every option has advantages and disadvantages associated with it.

Look at the current system. Black Guard or Executioners?
98/100 would probably choose the Blackguard.
The Executioners don't have a niche and therefore you are almost guaranteed to see Black Guard in a Dark Elf army, because they have only one true elite block infantry unit.

It would be like making a Chaos Lord/General of the Empire Ld 10. Suddenly there is a niche it fills and you would see less "Popes" and Chaos Sorceror Lords.

Shades are not too powerful? Tell that to my poor waywatchers and Glade guard scouts which are more expensive and even worse. Where can you find scouting skirmishers with S5 and reroll misses on first round. They aren't there for shooting swordsmen.

How can an army with Dryads possibly complain about overpowered)or underpriced) skirmishers?

The dagger has risks? Let me laugh. You were putting the mage in the unit anyway, eh? The dagger should be limited to 1 use per turn. That would be still pretty good.

No, I wasn't and I never do. (Its elsewhere in this thread I think) I would actively encourage people only to put mages into skirmishing units or on flying mounts. Drastically reduces their chances of dying. (Brilliant for DE, weakness of flying mount? You can be shot. Chillwind is a reliable answer)
I don't even like the mechanic of killing your own models.

Dark Elves are mediocre in magic? Unlimited PD per cast is pretty good if you need to cast that spell. VERY good lore. Their magic may not compete with VC but it is good.

You can't just say these things without backing them up.(Well, technically you can but its less of an argument and more of a sentence...)
Unlimited PD for casting is extremely limited in its application. Any player can tell you this. I mean, a few armies have items that allow them to cast with unlimited PD but they are never selected.

The Lore?
Chillwind - Great
Doombolt- Good
Word of Pain- Good against gunlines but Chillwind has that covered. I find the WS reduction to be pointless due to they way Warhammer works. (A: WS doesn't matter enough and B: My opponent or I normally loses our front rank anyway...)
Bladewind- Worse than your standard 2D6 S4 missile spells making this a bad spell. (Except against War Machines but that doesn't matter seeing as how are Harpies, Dark Riders and Shades will take all of them out by turn 2 every game :rolleyes:)
Steal Soul - Nerfed beyond usefullness.
Black Horror- Ok, this is very good but Lv6 spells should be. (See infernal gateway....)

Its just ridiculous to say that there's nothing wrong with shades, the hydra, pendant, ring and black guard with ASF-banner.

But I disagree because some things are being blown quite out of proportion.
The Hydra is too cheap but it's not by any means invincible. Many armies have access to either AP weapons or the Lore of Fire. Both can handle it if used well.

Again I agree that the Pendant is too cheap but again it only protects against uber-characters and large monsters. Don't rely on these for wins and more importantly try your best to just avoid a Bg/Pendant Dreadlord bunker.

Shades? I think people have grown to used to Shades that didn't do anything in the last book. Nonw that they actually perform reasonably they are deemed cheesy. So many things can deal with Shades.

The Ring only increases your chance of rolling on a very insignificant chart(In most cases) and by no way guarantees it. It basically forces a Druchii player to forgo magic(Which is apparently all powerful aswell...) and its normally mounted on a 1W T3 model or a 2W T3 model. Oh the cheese...

Black Guard with the ASF banner are a deadly bunker unit. Warhammer generals should not try to engage such units unless they are using their own such unit and the some factor tips the balance in their favour. If you keep throwing units at it and then blame it for your loss, well...think very hard about what your doing next time.


@Draconian:
War hydra we can agree to disagree.
RBTs I will just disagree, they are very useful as is. Super wonderful? No but useful. They still seem to be taken a fair bit so don't need much of a boost.

I wouldn't really call a 15pt break overpowered. 2 Dwarf Bolt Throwers or 3 Goblin Spear Chukkas for the same price as a single Reaper has always smacked of "wrong" to me. Besides if twin Hydras are cheesy and Hydra+1-2 Bolt Throwers is considered fine and dandy then increasing the Hydra by 25 pts and lowering the cost of Reapers should see most DE players take that configuration, wouldn't you agree?

"Generic Shade Mathhammer and comments"

I paraphrased...

Sorry the 2.5 was meant to be Chaos Warriors and even then that would be wrong as it would normally be 20 shots, 10 hits, 3.33 wounds and 1.66 casualties. Or to put it another way 16-32 pts of models killed.

Such evidence is meaningless though as your quite right, Warhammer doesn't happen in a vacuum. On another note most D6 S4 spells will tear Shades apart and they are normally beyond the range of the Ring.

And they just don't shoot, your units of shades also pack quite a combat wallop, especially in the flanks or rear. Great utility unit Bs4 OR 5

Thats were tricksy tricks are required. Characters at the side of units for example can normally ensure that the Shades stay away.

I did try to give suggestions for executioners btw. And yes I think BG are a little too cheap.

BG may be too cheap or they may just look too cheap because Witch Elves, Corsairs and Executioners are just too expensive. (Conversely Black Guard may be too cheap because Executioners, Witch Elves and Corsairs are priced correctly.Ok, Witch Elves aren't bad but their niche(anti-infantry) isn't something any player really requires. I think its fair to say that Corsairs and Executioners are too pricey though.

Cauldron of blood- T6 3+ ward should keep it alive most of the time but I don't think anything should be indestructible in warhammer. Its a great unit, adds a lot of synergy to the army but a great cannon shot smack bang on should have a chance to destroy it.

You see saying a Cannon should be able to kill it causes a problem with Warhammer. If you say that a Cannon should kill it and a Cannon should kill the Hydra and Chariots and Cold One Knights(All prime targets for a Cannon) then you A)Force people to bring Cannons and B)Force DE players to bring several units which only Cannons are particularily good against as if they only bring one or two as support units the cannons could focus fire and leave the Druchii battleplan in ruins. Besides paying over 250pts(Or whatever, I don't use it) for a bonus per turn is hardly overpowered.

Anyway as for "relying on an uber character too much", who says I am, but if someone has paid 600 points for captain uber killy death machine those 600 points should be usable on the table. Having a character on the corner of the unit able to completely negate the frontal or flank charge of said unit for 35 points is not at all fair. And I have never played with a bloodthirster or dragon rider. The point is not whether it affects ME, the point is if it is unbalanced or not- which it is.

But thats a ridiculous argument to make. After all a Cannon(Our good friend!) can also negate a 360 point Dragon in a single shot. Some things in this game aren't equal because they perform very well against certain things. Against a Cannon you eliminate it early on or hide your Dragon until later. With the Pendant you redirect the unit or try something odd like S test weapons.

Then add in the fact that said unit is ASF, ITP stubborn and protected from magic, with a boatload of attacks (maybe KB, but lets leave the cauldron out for the sake of argument) with an extra 4 S6 re-rollable attacks from the character and yes you have a points denial deathstar. And points denial armies are not fun and this particular build is immune to what a lot of armies can do against it which makes it overpowered.

But lots of armies have deathstars and points denial builds. The whole game of fantasy can sort of be likened to a game of "Rock-Paper-Scissors" with dice. You may come up against an army that can handle your deathstar unit or you can come up against an army that can't in which case that general has to improvise(IE: Use tactics, as pointless as everyone says that is.)


Pink makes it official.
-CoS Rep.

EDIT: I also think the second pip in my signature is worth considering here...

Sifal
15-01-2009, 01:14
I don't want to get into semantics but really a proper noun is not a noun as such, same lexical category but different classification as what we regularly call just a 'noun' is a common noun; something that describes classes of 'things' (miniature, case, dice) rather than a proper noun describing unique 'things' (Crone Hellebrone, Altdorf, W0lf). Apologies again I really hope I'm not coming across as a d***, this sort of thing just gets me going (in an excited, not hateful, way) because I've an English degree.

On the Ring' .... and to reply to EvC's point, I think the Ring' would be an excellent addition to a magic DE army. I don't play DE but it seems logical that if you have the Ring' and generate more dispel dice than usual then the magic defences go up exponentially and no points have to be expended on scroll caddying or further dispel aids. This allows the magic users to concentrate on offense. Obviously deployment and movement would need careful consideration.

On the topic of the Sacrificial Dagger - some people said you needn't worry about so much as the sorceress will be easy pickings and yo can get rid of its effects ealy in the game. I played someone who had level 4 sorceress with dagger and the item that means you cast spells from a proxy marker placed 'x' many inches away. She was placed in a large block of spearmen and two hydras were plonked in front of the unit, which she cast around the side of without being seen herself. Flanks were also fairly well protected.

Anyway, I'm not slagging the Dagger' or the Ring', I am impressed by the cleverness of oppenents of all armies and often face surprises and combos I'm not expecting; something that is great to see in a tactical strategy game. One of the biggest losses I've had against DE was against a player who used real world psychology by not taking any of the 'cheese' items. I played assuming he did have them (it was a tournament) and got beaten. He also had an assassin model sitting just to the side of the board the whole game and I was bricking it expecting it appear any moment, it never did. Not having the assassin did more than if it had appeared. That was maybe not so sporting though.

Draconian77
15-01-2009, 01:31
On the topic of the Sacrificial Dagger - some people said you needn't worry about so much as the sorceress will be easy pickings and yo can get rid of its effects ealy in the game. I played someone who had level 4 sorceress with dagger and the item that means you cast spells from a proxy marker placed 'x' many inches away.

I don't have my book to hand but I would say with 75% certainty that both of these items are Arcane and thus can't be put on the same Sorceress.

Sifal
15-01-2009, 01:38
Interesting. Something both myself and the opponent using this combination overlooked. If they are both arcane, which would be logical, then the list was illegal and everyone should ignore that rather good tactic of proximity casting with 7 point PD.

Condottiere
15-01-2009, 02:01
Might have gotten mixed up with Morathi.

Sifal
15-01-2009, 02:14
yeah that's more than likely. I wouldn't see it as unreasonable for a high sorceress who is a couple of thousand years old and a master of magic to be able to take 2 arcane items though. maybe the combo is a bit nails. bet morathi couldn't take 2 arcane items if she were on foot.

Draconian77
15-01-2009, 02:18
I don't even think you can put Mortahii on foot. I don't think paying for her Pegasus is optional. (Again only about 75% sure on this...)

blueon462
15-01-2009, 02:45
I don't even think you can put Mortahii on foot. I don't think paying for her Pegasus is optional. (Again only about 75% sure on this...)

They are both Arcane, and Morathi must ride Sulphet.

This is the greatest whine thread ever... Ph34r the t3 elves!

Draconian77
15-01-2009, 03:03
Mini-hurrah, looks like that cloud of cotton wool my friends replaced my brain with has at least some means of retaining information.

Thanks for checking that out so promptly blueon462.

omgadinosaur
15-01-2009, 03:09
They are both Arcane, and Morathi must ride Sulphet.

This is the greatest whine thread ever... Ph34r the t3 elves!

Why do people always go "Yeah we have a lot of things going for us...but we're only t3!"

It's all over this thread.

I play HE (I know ASF, +D6 Combat Res, Star dragon can't complain much) and all of us are T3. Maybe it's different because enemies have to get hit by a large number of attacks before they get to kill things but it has never come across to me as THAT bad. We elves hit things a good number more often so the wounding usually evens things out.

IMO the Ring of Hotek should go up to about 30 points to eliminate the random unit champ from carrying it.

The Pendent needs to be modified to be more expensive or come in something like the Armor of Protection (4+ ward and light armor) where it becomes difficult to get it to the really low AS that makes it so tough. It would also stop it's combination with the Regenerate armor that just can make it overkill. To those who say "Just Avoid it!" It is a smidge hard when the barer is a Dreadlord on a Dragon.

I think that Shades should go down to BS 4, compare able to other Elven scouts. (I also think that Shadow warriors should be able to get a second hand weapon but that's another thread)

I also think that Black Guard are very comparable to HE elite infantry and should get a slight point increase. The increase would make it so that the GIANT BUNKERS OF DOOM!!! are less apt and would also encourage the cheaper (yet not as good) witch elves and executioners.

Those are my 2cents.

Disclaimer:(I also think that my very own Dragon Princes need an increase in points and the Talisman of Loec needs to be about 15 points instead of 10. Star Dragons could also use a bit of a power down. I'm not trying to call foul on just the dark cousins, i'm the first to admit HE have some problems as well)

druchii lord narakh
15-01-2009, 03:24
The DE are evenly paried out army PERIOD. We are not cheesy in any way. yea sure we got hatred, but we got a T3 and on average 5+ save. look at high elves they always will attack you with full rank. no one else can do that as and army. everyone else has to have a magic item or banner to get ASF.
Look at tome kings, vampire counts, scaven, goblins, and empire. they each have a stong point through the army. scaven and goblins got ******* high #. Empire got lots of pretty good heroes and have lots of guns. vampire counts have strong characters and a guy who never frigen dies!!!!!!!!!!!. Tome kings have there strong magic.
if you want cheesy look at those. i mean the damn ogers are expencive but there hard as ****** to kill. i want you take a unit of 20 Ws 4 S3 T3 5+Sv and try to kill only FIVE orgers. its almost imposible unless you get the charge(even then its hard)
Now quit complaining.

only cheesy DE is the DreadLord on cold one with pendant of khaeleth and the armour of eternal servitude and for fun add a dager of hotek for ASF or death piercer( lance with killing blow) or get shield of grhond and give him a normall lance.
then thers the one i use personally
Dradlord on cold one, sword of ruin(no armor saves) pendant of khaeleth( freak ward save) enchanted shield, heavy armor.
now theres a cheese character hunter.

High Loremaster
15-01-2009, 04:34
Personally, I believe the fundamental problem with all "overpowered" armies in 7th edition is that GW has designed them with absolutely no regards to how they could be abused.

In 6th edition, there were fewer opportunities to abuse lists. High Elves? Just about the only way to make an overpowered HE list was to go double dragon in a 2k game (Lord on Dragon, Dogs of War guy on the Dragon). High Elves couldn't make a proper "gunline", since Archers blew chunks, RBTs were too expensive to take in bulk, and magic could be stopped.

The Dark Elf list isn't nessecarily overpowered in and of itself. Sure, it's got some really nice units, but it's when a player takes those two Hydras AND the Pendant AND the Ring AND etc. - that's when it becomes overpowered. It feels like Games Workshop really didn't TRY to prevent powergaming lists this time around. In 6th, for example, they admitted that they didn't even consider that Bretts would go RAF. It was an accident.

EDIT: Overall, I'd say the best option is to find people who remember that Warhammer is a game! It's not about winning all the time, it's about having fun. If you play people all the time who always go for the powergaming lists, it's time to find some new people to play against. Personally, I would be happy with - hell, I'd PREFER - a 7th edition HE list that was essentially the same as the 6th edition one with a few fixes, namely the removal of I@C, a slight points reduction across the board, a large points reduction for Archers, LSG, and PG... and I'd be fine. I'd be happy to play with that.

Kerill
15-01-2009, 04:40
Druchi lord narach
By ogres I guess you are saying ogre bulls?
5 ogres charge, FC don't get bull charge since against DE you can simply move forward a bit so they are within 6"
4 ogres can get into combat:
12*.5*.6666= 3.99 wounds
DE get 6 attacks back with hatred (lets assume the champ died, probably not) cause 1.7 wounds
Ogres get 4 wounds+banner= +5
DE get 3 ranks, banner, US, 1.7 wounds= +6.7
De spearmen win convincingly, and will strike first next round.
In fact its almost impossible to lose against 5 ogres AND they cost more.
They also die easier to shooting at 12 points per wound with no armour save.
I can't believe someone is trying to claim ogres are overpowered...unless its a DE player trying to say they are not OP.

@Draconian you seem to keep repeating the same things so this will just go on forever. In one place you say RBTS are overcosted, in another post you say hydras aren't good because they compete with RBTs which are very useful in a DE army.

You will disagree no matter what and keep stating other people who complain about DE it's simply because they can't beat them. Nonsense, DE, daemons and VC can all be beaten, doesn't stop them from being overpowered. You can win games with ogre kingdoms, doesn't mean they are the best army.
So we keep coming back to:
1) DE are not broken in any way, nothing is too strong or even if it is something else powerful should be made even cheaper (opinion)
2) People who disagree are skill-less whiners who can barely play warhammer ...(opinion and negative judgement about the people who complain)
3) ...unlike all DE players who are incredibly skillful (opinion)
4)... which is why DE do so well at no comp tournaments unlike Daemons and VC at such tournaments who are simply playing an overpowered army
5) DE should have advantages that can't be negated.

You also occasionally pull out random numbers for kills that aren't accurate to try and make your case or use extreme examples (empire swordsmen as an example for what shades should be shooting at and 1+ saves- the only armour save where AP doesn't help)

Draconian77
15-01-2009, 05:09
@Draconian you seem to keep repeating the same things so this will just go on forever. In one place you say RBTS are overcosted, in another post you say hydras aren't good because they compete with RBTs which are very useful in a DE army.

Hmm, not quite what I said but expecting you to get it first time round was expecting too much it seems!

For clarification:

-Twin Hydras are good.
-But they leave your list more vulrenable to flying monsters and heavily armoured knights.
-Just like mages are good but leave you vulrenable to combat.
-Something can be good but still create weaknesses within a list. If you don't know this then I really am beginning to wonder about your skill level.

Reapers are overcosted compared to most other Bolt Throwers(Obviously excluding HE who should get the same price as DE do, I don't really consider ASF on 2 crewmen to be worth paying for.) Making them cheaper and the Hydra more expensive would most likely result in 1 Hydra+1-2 Bolt Thrower builds which most people don't seem to have a problem with.

You will disagree no matter what and keep stating other people who complain about DE it's simply because they can't beat them. Nonsense, DE, daemons and VC can all be beaten, doesn't stop them from being overpowered. You can win games with ogre kingdoms, doesn't mean they are the best army.

Yay, another paragraph filled with sentences rather than constructive debate...

So we keep coming back to:
1) DE are not broken in any way, nothing is too strong or even if it is something else powerful should be made even cheaper (opinion)

I would read these next sentences very carefully.
Most things in this game get increasingly powerful as more of an identical or like thing is chosen. With me so far?
This is why gunlines work, this is why magic heavy can work and its why 40k saw things such as Tri-Falcon and Nidzilla.
If you raise the cost of an offending item by a bit(in this case 20ish points) and decrease the cost of something that competes with that model/unit and provides something useful for the army in question then you are less likely to get people doubling up on the offending item. Its quite logical.

For example one reason why Nidzilla became so popular was because many units in the Tyranid codex perform badly for equal or even more points, added to the fact that the new edition causes some units to be looked upon with disfavour(Lictors, Biovores, etc)

To many Dark Elf players Reapers are worth it because of the cost of both them and the Hydra.
Executioners and Witch Elves will rarely be chosen over Black Guard.
For Witch Elves its the fact that they don't really add anything to a Druchii army.
For Executioners its the fact that they don't add anything and their overpriced.

2) People who disagree are skill-less whiners who can barely play warhammer ...(opinion and negative judgement about the people who complain)

Fair enough, I'll freely admit that I don't know anything about you or your gaming skills but if I base things on what I see around me DE certainly aren't "broken". The players around here don't smack into the Pendant Lord screaming "Why won't you die?!" and they try to remove the Ring if it ever causes a problem for them. It just seems that everyone arguing for DE being overpowered considers these things an impossibility.

3) ...unlike all DE players who are incredibly skillful (opinion)

Well, most long term Druchii players(As in played with the previous books) should be quite good at the basics and should be really good at getting the most out of their units. Go team Druchii! But seriously, I think its just as naive to assume that all Druchii players are dawdling idiots who copy and paste the "interwebz" most "broken" armies and then romp home to victory time and again.

4)... which is why DE do so well at no comp tournaments unlike Daemons and VC at such tournaments who are simply playing an overpowered army

Could well be. I think you might have just used logic accidentally!
Well done.
:rolleyes:

5) DE should have advantages that can't be negated.

How very sophisticated of you...
Everything in the book has weaknesses you just refuse to accept any of them because of, well, at this point in time I really don't know.

You also occasionally pull out random numbers for kills that aren't accurate to try and make your case or use extreme examples (empire swordsmen as an example for what shades should be shooting at and 1+ saves- the only armour save where AP doesn't help)

True I did make a mistake originally but that has been corrected already. Using a Chaos Warrior rather than a Swordsman or a 1+ save Knight.
Hardly an extreme example and the damage caused was minimal.

Also, whilst the Pendant might be nigh unavoidable on a Dragon so are all nasty magic things. Dragons themselves are nigh on unavoidable and really GW needs to start limiting the beasts or something. All you ever hear are complaints about them and unlike here some of those complaints really are justified!

Kerill
15-01-2009, 05:55
" I think its just as naive to assume that all Druchii players are dawdling idiots who copy and paste the "interwebz" most "broken" armies and then romp home to victory time and again."

I didn't say they were dawdling idiots, indeed any such suggestions have come from some Druchi players in this thread who insist on putting their level 4 sorceress right next to the ring of Hotek. Nor did I say DE are the most broken army, but they ARE overpowered and they are broken. Not as bad as daemons but not far off either.

Are DE overpowerd- yes
Do many DE players use the broken things- yes
Does this make them cheesey WAAC players- not necessarily, doesn't make a daemon player a WAAC player either.
Does taking a very strong book/list and then claiming its not strong (or even weak) make them a WAAC player- it does in my eyes, but that's just my opinion

Draconian77
15-01-2009, 06:13
" I think its just as naive to assume that all Druchii players are dawdling idiots who copy and paste the "interwebz" most "broken" armies and then romp home to victory time and again."

I didn't say they were dawdling idiots, indeed any such suggestions have come from some Druchi players in this thread who insist on putting their level 4 sorceress right next to the ring of Hotek. Nor did I say DE are the most broken army, but they ARE overpowered and they are broken. Not as bad as daemons but not far off either.

I didn't say you did, but I thought it was something that needed to be cleared up.

Are DE overpowerd- yes

Ah! I would say that only a fraction of DE builds could really be considered OTT. Considering a fraction of any army books possible lists can be considered OTT this would make so many things broken.
If everything is broken then everything is fair right? (Obviously not...)

Do many DE players use the broken things- yes

I totally agree with this, but of course that could be just because they likes the look of the units or are finally happy to get a Hydra that doesnt A)Suck and B)Look like it sucks!
Heh, why on earth did the last one have barnacals on it...

Does this make them cheesey WAAC players- not necessarily, doesn't make a daemon player a WAAC player either.

Indeed, WAAC is more of an attitude than a list anyway. Although the odds of a non-WAAC player picking up a Dragon, twin Hydras and a ASF BG unit with the Ring are slim enough I'd say. So if you see that, be prepared for that sort of a game.

Does taking a very strong book/list and then claiming its not strong (or even weak) make them a WAAC player- it does in my eyes, but that's just my opinion.

See this is where we really have a problem. I do think that its strong(It is much stronger than the previous one in some areas especially although I feel the magic is a little...off. I'm too used to +1 to cast.) But I won't let people go around calling it broken or overpowered. At worst its competitive. Which is good.

Shades of grey. <-Magenta?

squeekenator
15-01-2009, 07:07
I would read these next sentences very carefully.
Most things in this game get increasingly powerful as more of an identical or like thing is chosen. With me so far?
This is why gunlines work, this is why magic heavy can work and its why 40k saw things such as Tri-Falcon and Nidzilla.
If you raise the cost of an offending item by a bit(in this case 20ish points) and decrease the cost of something that competes with that model/unit and provides something useful for the army in question then you are less likely to get people doubling up on the offending item. Its quite logical.

Sorry, but this is just plain wrong. [WARNING: EXAGGERATION] Say you have a Hero that costs 100 points and has a standard human profile, except also with S6, T6 and ten attacks (the Hydra). He's broken, and the powergamers will spam them like crazy. You also have one that costs 80 points, but only has S5, T5 and four attacks (the bolt thrower). Now, obviously everyone will take the better one, because it's superior. They will also win a lot, because it's broken.

Now say that GW notices the problem, and decide to nerf the better one. They reduce him to three attacks, and now he may be balanced-ish. Sure, fine. However, say they use your strategy. They make the other hero only cost 50 points. What does this achieve? Well, if he is still weaker than the better one, the stronger character will be spammed like crazy, and the army will still be as strong as ever. If the previously weaker one is stronger, then he gets spammed like crazy instead, and the list becomes even more broken.

So how does making other Rare choices stronger nerf Hydras, exactly?

stonehorse
15-01-2009, 07:08
Incidentally, DE crossbowman vs. thunderer missile fight, 12" range:
10 thunderers 140 points
14 crossbowmen 140 points.
- fire simultaneously for the sake of argument
Thunderers get +1 to hit:
10*.666*.666=4.44 wounds
DE crossbows get 28*.5*.333= 4.66 wounds
DE winning so far.
Second round 5.34 thunderers left, 9.56 DE left:
Thunderers5.34*.666*.666= 2.37
DE: 19.12*.5*.333= 3.1 kills
DE doing even better now, next round stunties wiped out.
so...still the best core missile troops in the game bar none.

What makes you think that a unit of RXB will be able to get within 12" without being seriously shot to bits... especially as to get 28 shots they have to be in a 14 wide line. This example you have used is in a vacum, as to get with in 12" the RXB will have had to move, and so will be needing 5+ to hit, and 5+ to wound, where as the Thunderers will need 3+ to hit and 3+ to kill.

In a game where units don't fire simultaneously, which is the game known as Warhammer, the Dwarfs have the advantage. Also saying 'for the sake of argument' is a very silly thing to say when you have given a situation that will never occure in Warhammer.


Darkspear I put them 12" apart to give the dwarves the +1 to hit at short range. At long range DE RBTs are even better by comparison:
simultaneous shots again:
dwarves 10*.3333*.666=2.2 kils
Elves: 28*.3333*.333= 3.11 kills

I was actually stacking things AGAINST the DE, in a normal missile duel at more than half range they butcher those stunties even faster.

Then I think you need to read the Dwarf book again, Thunderers get +1 to hit at any range... the +1 to hit at short range was in their previous army book.

So in a long range fight the RXB need 5+ to hit, and 5+ to wound, where the Thunderers need 4+ to hit and 3+ to kill.

Note in both examples I have allowed the option of shields to be taken, by saying that that RXB wound and not kill... ok it is 1 in 6 chance, but it is better than nothing.


Druchi lord narach
By ogres I guess you are saying ogre bulls?
5 ogres charge, FC don't get bull charge since against DE you can simply move forward a bit so they are within 6"
4 ogres can get into combat:
12*.5*.6666= 3.99 wounds
DE get 6 attacks back with hatred (lets assume the champ died, probably not) cause 1.7 wounds
Ogres get 4 wounds+banner= +5
DE get 3 ranks, banner, US, 1.7 wounds= +6.7
De spearmen win convincingly, and will strike first next round.


You also forgot to allow for Fear, additional Hand Weapon, Bull Charge... in all the examples I have read you use in these arguments you have a bad habit of leaving out the opponents special abilities/options while allowing the Dark Elves to wallow in their special abilities.

If you are going to provide an arguement, at least do it with the game in mind.

Kerill
15-01-2009, 07:24
What makes you think that a unit of RXB will be able to get within 12" without being seriously shot to bits... especially as to get 28 shots they have to be in a 14 wide line. This example you have used is in a vacum, as to get with in 12" the RXB will have had to move, and so will be needing 5+ to hit, and 5+ to wound, where as the Thunderers will need 3+ to hit and 3+ to kill.

In a game where units don't fire simultaneously, which is the game known as Warhammer, the Dwarfs have the advantage. Also saying 'for the sake of argument' is a very silly thing to say when you have given a situation that will never occure in Warhammer.



Then I think you need to read the Dwarf book again, Thunderers get +1 to hit at any range... the +1 to hit at short range was in their previous army book.

So in a long range fight the RXB need 5+ to hit, and 5+ to wound, where the Thunderers need 4+ to hit and 3+ to kill.

Note in both examples I have allowed the option of shields to be taken, by saying that that RXB wound and not kill... ok it is 1 in 6 chance, but it is better than nothing.



You also forgot to allow for Fear, additional Hand Weapon, Bull Charge... in all the examples I have read you use in these arguments you have a bad habit of leaving out the opponents special abilities/options while allowing the Dark Elves to wallow in their special abilities.

If you are going to provide an arguement, at least do it with the game in mind.

OK point by point:
1) Thunderers also have a 24" range so the DE will not get shot to bits. Also the DE can move and fire, thunderers can't. Advantage druchii. If the dwarves move up to shoot they don't get any chance to fire at all.
2) If thunderers get +1 to hit at long range then my bad (I'll check) even with it though the DE outperform them.
3) Ogres- statement I was disagreeing with was that 5 ogres are "impossible to beat unless you get the charge"
If you want to add in a/hw, go ahead:
16*.5*.666*.8333 (DE now get a 6+ save)=4.44 kills
Lets assume the druchi fail their fear test (which is unlikely but there you go)
5.5 attacks back with re-rolls causes 0.5 wounds

Ogres have 4.44 kills, standard
Druchi have +3 ranks, standard, US and 0.5 wounds.
Draw slightly in favour of the druchii, win if the ogres don't have a muso (lets assume they do).
Ogre unit now costs: 225 points
Druchi spearmen 20 with FC, shields- 155 points
Druchi spearmen 25- 180 points
Both are cheaper than the ogres, beat them even if charged AND fail a fear test on Ld8-10.

Next round druchi strike first and no longer strike on 6's

So unless you are foolish enough to let the ogres get a bull charge AND the ogres have all the gubbins you could give them you will beat them whatever they try.

You can add in the different stats yourself stonehorse, I'm not your personal calculator to run them every time. Say I've loaded things too much against the druchi and SHOW US THE EVIDENCE for the other position. You won't like it though, I'm not trying to twist the figures, but if you think I am run them and show your calculations.

Saying "you didn't do this" without trying it is a way to avoid or deflect an argument.

Oh and BTW DE warriors are not a unit I recommended nerfing, nor are the crossbowmen although both are very strong units.

stonehorse
15-01-2009, 07:29
Thunderers CAN move and fire... at this point I'm starting to think you don't know the rules, so this is all pointless.

Kerill
15-01-2009, 07:54
Dwarf book page 28:

Rules: Armour piercing, move or fire
move...
OR
fire

You may be right, all of this is pointless.

Darkspear
15-01-2009, 09:05
Sign~ I did not start this topic to get people arguing.

Anyway I notice that some people keep on bringing the dragon into the discussion. Because of that, I as a druchii player, do not feel the need to be defensive in this regard. The Dragon is indeed a cheesy playing piece, t6 s6 with 3+ armor and mobility! It is the 1st choice of WAAC players.

I know many waac players have joined the druchii. This is a fact of life, I got sicken whenever I saw posts on d.net like "Hi I just took up druchii. This is my list please comment... and no surprise, the 1st item is the Dragon....". Although a little disgusted by these waac player that is constantly on the move to join the next cool/cheese camp, I seriously do not think we should bring the antics of these players into these threads (which means dragon + hydra). I personally feel that waac players will soon move on to later strong armies.

Kerill
15-01-2009, 09:08
@Darkspear, waac players don't play DE, because they aren't a strong army.

Anyway snide remarks aside, any cheese discussion will cause arguments, at least you cn see in this thread what people worry about the most and why.

Draconian77
15-01-2009, 09:11
Sorry, but this is just plain wrong. [WARNING: EXAGGERATION] Say you have a Hero that costs 100 points and has a standard human profile, except also with S6, T6 and ten attacks (the Hydra). He's broken, and the powergamers will spam them like crazy. You also have one that costs 80 points, but only has S5, T5 and four attacks (the bolt thrower). Now, obviously everyone will take the better one, because it's superior. They will also win a lot, because it's broken.

Now say that GW notices the problem, and decide to nerf the better one. They reduce him to three attacks, and now he may be balanced-ish. Sure, fine. However, say they use your strategy. They make the other hero only cost 50 points. What does this achieve? Well, if he is still weaker than the better one, the stronger character will be spammed like crazy, and the army will still be as strong as ever. If the previously weaker one is stronger, then he gets spammed like crazy instead, and the list becomes even more broken.

So how does making other Rare choices stronger nerf Hydras, exactly?

Because you obviously don't understand the difference between units with a similar role and units with different roles for a start?

Your example is quite accurate, everyone would spam the S6 T6 model at first and then switch, but thats because he performs the same role as the other competing model only he does it much better for a minute difference in points.

But, Bolt Throwers and Hydras have different roles.

As it stands the Bolt Throwers don't offer a competitive points cost for accomplishing their role within the Druchii army whereas the Hydra has a different role and but also happens to be very competitively priced which makes him excel in that role.

Now, if you make the Hydra more expensive(say 25pts) and decrease the cost of the Bolt Throwers(say 20pts a pop) the competition gets much closer. People would think to themselves "As good as the Hydra is for less points I could have two Reapers which would be really useful if I came up against flying monsters or heavy cavalry!" rather than now where most players think "Those Reapers are expensive for what they could bring to the army whereas the Hydra is very good at what he does and is cheaper than the Reapers to boot..."

Now you are not trying to nerf Hydras as such because a single Hydra really doesn't seem to bother people. What your trying to do is encourage people to take the alternative because it can do something that the Hydra cannot at a reasonable price. I really hope this explanation helps.

squeekenator
15-01-2009, 10:55
It makes sense as long as you nerf the Hydra as well. If you only buff the underpowered units, such as those competing with Black Guard, then you end up strengthening an already powerful army. If you buff the weak units and nerf the strong units, you get a nice, balanced list that's fun to play with and against.


The DE are evenly paried out army PERIOD. We are not cheesy in any way. yea sure we got hatred, but we got a T3 and on average 5+ save. look at high elves they always will attack you with full rank. no one else can do that as and army. everyone else has to have a magic item or banner to get ASF.

Something interesting I found out is the putting the word 'period' at the end of a sentence does not actually make it true, whether you use ALL CAPS or not. Not even using 'full stop' (and two words doubles the persuasive power) can do that. Now, what I'd like to know is why T3 and a 5+ save is such a huge disadvantage. Isn't T3 meant to be the average? My Skaven get along fine with it, and while we have better saves, we cost about the same and have considerably less killing power. Also, High Elves having ASF doesn't really have any impact whatsoever on the balance of the Dark Elf book.


Look at tome kings, vampire counts, scaven, goblins, and empire. they each have a stong point through the army. scaven and goblins got friggen high #. Empire got lots of pretty good heroes and have lots of guns. vampire counts have strong characters and a guy who never frigen dies!!!!!!!!!!!. Tome kings have there strong magic.
if you want cheesy look at those. i mean the damn ogers are expencive but there hard as F--K to kill. i want you take a unit of 20 Ws 4 S3 T3 5+Sv and try to kill only FIVE orgers. its almost imposible unless you get the charge(even then its hard)
Now quit complaining.

So all those armies can be strong in a certain area, while poor old Dark Elves can never excel in any part of the game. They can't move fast, they can't take huge spearelf hordes, you have pathetic magic. Your massed repeater crossbows couldn't kill a single Gnoblar, and Dark Elf characters can never become powerful, 'coz they're elves.

Are you then saying that, among other famously overpowered armies, Goblin hordes and Ogre Kingdoms are cheesy? They're dominating every tournament, I'm sure. Here's a helpful hint about Ogres: You don't have to kill them. WHFB has this thing called 'combat resolution', and it means that Ld7 units with no rank bonus tend to flee and die when you throw some intimidating-looking squirrels at them.

May I ask exactly what you were thinking when you typed this?

wooden anteater
15-01-2009, 11:44
I've joined in fairly late on this discussion, but want to pose a question. If I run a list with no ASF banner, no ring of hotek, no pendant, no dragon, and a single hydra, does the army remain cheesy/broken/overpowered? Because if this is the case, it means that there are a couple of overpowered/undercosted elements, but the army as a whole is not. Here is my 2250 list as reference - would you be offended or feel disadvantaged to play it?

Dreadlord on Manti - ring of darkness, 1 plus armour, killing blow lance.
Master on peg - full mundane, lance, lifetaker.
Caddy - 150 pts, by the way.

2x5 dark riders, muso
2x5 harpies
2x10 rxbs
22 Spears, FC

15 Black Guard, FC
6 COKs, naked
7 Shades, GW

1x RBT
Hydra

Emeraldw
15-01-2009, 12:46
I've joined in fairly late on this discussion, but want to pose a question. If I run a list with no ASF banner, no ring of hotek, no pendant, no dragon, and a single hydra, does the army remain cheesy/broken/overpowered? Because if this is the case, it means that there are a couple of overpowered/undercosted elements, but the army as a whole is not.

That's the point many have been making. Vampire counts and daemons aren't so bad if you don't abuse the really good stuff. It's just that abusing the good stuff is really easy in some armies and some have more of them.

Dark Elves aren't so bad if you don't take certain elements. But at the same time, why wouldn't you take them when they are clearly superior in every way.

wooden anteater
15-01-2009, 13:15
That's the point many have been making. Vampire counts and daemons aren't so bad if you don't abuse the really good stuff. It's just that abusing the good stuff is really easy in some armies and some have more of them.

Dark Elves aren't so bad if you don't take certain elements. But at the same time, why wouldn't you take them when they are clearly superior in every way.

Well I know that this may not be the case with all players, but I like to think that it shows a little more skill to get by without crutches. That being said, simple adjustments to the problems would solve the issue. Some points increase for the pendant, 5 point increase for the ring to stop champion use, approx. 20 point increase/0-1 restriction on hydrae would make this whole discussion invalid. TBH, I, and I think most reasonable players, would accept these restrictions, if only to end the cries of cheese. Most Delves players who played through 6th succesfully are pretty good players, and aren't going to need the help.

On the whole none of these things are game-breaking, it's only cheesemongers who want to squeeze everything out that are the problem. And if we are talking these people, they're the ones who are double stank/karl franzing, and these people are going to abuse every list. I guess I'm trying to say that the ability to cheese a list by taking one particular build doesn't make a list cheesy, its the players who can't show a little self restraint that do. It gets my heckles up to be told I won because of the reputed power of my army brough about by these players, rather than my skill.

Mireadur
15-01-2009, 13:46
The complete roster needs a careful raise of the point costs (this extends to the difficulty values for casting spells). It is exactly the same as VC: Two awesome jobs but with the point costs way off the rest of the game.

A different matter are the demons, which would need the elimination/radical changes of just some aspects of the list to bring them into equilibrium.

EvC
15-01-2009, 13:51
wooden anteater, good list, but you are allowed to field some of the nastier things? Nobody would object to seeing the Ring of Hotek in there somewhere, you've got a magic-lite list, so go for it! That's the entire crux of the discussion, a lot of the Dark Elf army is generally undercosted, some more than others. If someone takes all the undercosted stuff (E.g. 2 Hydras, Ring, Pendant, Black Guard with ASF) then it's basically like facing an army that's powerful to start off with, but then given an extra 150 points to play with. And then some tournament organisers reckon they deserve another points break compared to heavily restricted vamps and daemons, lol.


Because you obviously don't understand the difference between units with a similar role and units with different roles for a start?

Your example is quite accurate, everyone would spam the S6 T6 model at first and then switch, but thats because he performs the same role as the other competing model only he does it much better for a minute difference in points.

But, Bolt Throwers and Hydras have different roles.

As it stands the Bolt Throwers don't offer a competitive points cost for accomplishing their role within the Druchii army whereas the Hydra has a different role and but also happens to be very competitively priced which makes him excel in that role.

Now, if you make the Hydra more expensive(say 25pts) and decrease the cost of the Bolt Throwers(say 20pts a pop) the competition gets much closer. People would think to themselves "As good as the Hydra is for less points I could have two Reapers which would be really useful if I came up against flying monsters or heavy cavalry!" rather than now where most players think "Those Reapers are expensive for what they could bring to the army whereas the Hydra is very good at what he does and is cheaper than the Reapers to boot..."

Now you are not trying to nerf Hydras as such because a single Hydra really doesn't seem to bother people. What your trying to do is encourage people to take the alternative because it can do something that the Hydra cannot at a reasonable price. I really hope this explanation helps.

We get your point, encourage people to take the other rare choice. But it's not that simple. As long as the Hydra remains way too powerful for its points cost, it means an army contaiing one has an inherent advantage. People already have the choice of taking a Hydra and two Bolt Throwers- and the smart Dark Elf players have been doing that for a while. Two Hydras is seen as being broken, but the Hydra and Bolter combo is still pretty great.

If someone fields an army consisting of all the tricks, and one Hydra and two Bolt Throwers, then that army does not become more balanced by dropping the price of the bolt throwers by 20 points and increasing the Hydra by 25- it gives the Dark Elf player an additional 15 points to play with! If that's your idea for balancing a strong list, all I can do is laugh :D

What the Hydra needs is simply to be appropriately costed in the first place- 225 points. Then people have to think about whether to take it or Bolt Throwers instead. Simple. But - and this is according to a playtester - the Hydra was simply underpriced to sell more of the excellent new model they released. The entire strategy was sell less Bolt Throwers, and sell more Hydras. Yep, the book was written to sell lots of great models, not a bad thing, mind, just could use some better balance! :)

------------------------------
I also find the arguments that the Pendant is good because it discourages super-fighty Lords to be quite bankrupt. Especially when people complain that "only" 4 WS7 S6 hatred attacks (minimum!) is not good enough on their own nigh-unkillable lords. So we're not meant to take any powerful Lords that can dish out a few wounds a turn, and at the same time, and we're not meant to take Lords who specialise in casting magic because of the Ring of Hotek. So what are we meant to take? The only decent Lord-choices in the game, if you remove the options for great fighters and great wizards are:
-Arch Lector on War Altar
-Vampire Lord who bunkers up and spams invocations all game
-Runelord on Anvil of Doom

Congratulations, by telling people off for having the audacity to field powerful and exciting Lord choices, you are encouraging your opponents to bring the dullest lords in the entire game. Well done. Is that really the game you want to see?

Kerill
15-01-2009, 14:20
I don't object to that list at all.

Don't get me wrong I still think hydras should be a lot more expensive but your list isn't tooled out with all broken things and any all-comers army has a decent chance to take you on. A strong list (and why not?) that will come down to how your opponent and you will play and the dice gods. It's not a "listhammer" list.

Unlike EVC I object to the ring of hotek in any list as completely broken (the item) unless you are playing Tzeentch daemons.

I wouldn't object to you adding the ASF banner to your BG either (but still think they should be a little more expensive next edition).

W0lf
15-01-2009, 14:26
This thread just gets sillier and sillier.

Daemons are broken. I fail to see that as anything other then fact.
Vampires are generally accepted as broken by a mjority- rightly or wrongly.
Both dominate tournament top 10's. proving thus they are 'the best' lists.

So why is it Dark elves are able to compete with them in a way WoC, Skaven, Tomb kings ect dont? DEs generally follow very close behind daemons and vamps, this is because they are broken. Simple.

However its just as easy to build a balanced list as a broken one; Dark elves are in no way unbeatable and no one here is saying they are. In a local meta game DEs are a fine army and i agree are a fun chalenge to play with and against.

/End

Max_Killfactor
15-01-2009, 14:59
Unlike EVC I object to the ring of hotek in any list as completely broken (the item) unless you are playing Tzeentch daemons.


That's silly. I have a caddie and ring in every one of my armies. I build take all comers lists and don't have any offensive magic. I doubt you'd object if I took a ring against dwarfs, tomb kings, or any combat heavy army (khorne demons, bretonnia, dragon elves, etc..).

My point is that the ring is very good against some armies and worthless against others, which is why the cost is low. I believe Gav himself agave that answer on his mechanicalhamster blog. I think some people (not you specifically) have a blind hatred towards items/combos that screws over their armies, but they ignore how useless those same items can be against others. Still, I think it should be bumped up to 30 points so unit champs cannot take it.

Shamfrit
15-01-2009, 15:13
Alternatively, find out where the ring is first time, then don't cast spells in that direction until it's dealt with!

Of course, nobody thought of that did they :p

Genrazn
15-01-2009, 15:14
Whoever puts... ring of hotek on a champion is a idiot. 4-5+ AS 1 wound a waste of points. I would rather give it +3 S to 1+ AS

EndlessBug
15-01-2009, 15:27
thats why you put it on a CoK unit champ.

Why does everyone continue to argue that Hydras are undercosted... we all agree.

As for the ring of Hotek, yes it's nasty, but as has been pointed out it will only work against about 50% of the armies, and over about half of the battelfield. We all know who will have it. Hint: NOT the dreadlord, he has the pendant, MAYBE: Noble, BG champ or CoK champ, out of these three I'd say the CoK champ will have it 60% of the time, Noble pretty much the rest, BG champ will take Crimson Death almost always.

Pendant, yes it's udnercosted! bump it up to 60 points and make the black amulet 60 points as well and you'll have more variations of lords. Also consider dropping the executioners blade to 75 points so he can take the armour of darkness and actually have a decent save (still no ward or regen!). Alternatively put the pendant on a set of armour so no regen with it (as has been said).

But, this wont be done for a while as there are pleanty of other books to come out and a revision will have to wait.

Sidenote:
If Demons and VC are broken
DE are after them in rankings
WoC and HE are the other new lists (considered weaker than DE)

Doesn't that mean that DE are the average no? Meaning the problem is that WoC and HE are underpowered...

Frankly
15-01-2009, 16:17
What the Hydra needs is simply to be appropriately costed in the first place- 225 points. Then people have to think about whether to take it or Bolt Throwers instead. Simple.



175pts to 225pts is a huge points jump. Is it worth 225pts? Would people still run it in a army .... besides for looks?

Its a large target, limited to movement 6. Playable in pairs, but not brilliant by it's self. For example, I ran over one with a unit of B.knights(+strigoi banner) with a thrall(Red fury + Balefire lance), any walking beast has charge range limitations and are subject to getting charged rather than charging.

A Hydra does hit like a brick though.

DeathlessDraich
15-01-2009, 16:18
I play with all armies except 2 which I face often enough so I can safely say my army views are totally unbiased.

Isolating 1 or two magic items or units and grumbling about them fails to take the army as a whole into account and taken as a whole:

1) DE are fine. Perfectly fine.

2) 'Unbalanced' or Extreme army lists
i) This is a feature of many armies
ii) If it is legal it is totally acceptable.
iii) Some armies may 'appear' to be more balanced but could still be very difficult to beat.
iv) The only problem lies with a handful of extreme army lists - a list that has a good chance of beating more than the fair share of armies (about 70% or more) even without using Special characters.

Daemons have about 3 of these lists (plus permutations of them), VC maybe 1 or 2. The other armies - none that I can think of and this includes DE.

Aglemar
15-01-2009, 16:32
From what I have seen you can't tell much from rankings other then who the most powerful are. When one army list becomes dominant then it throws everything off. Right now we have the demons leading the pack, and as such most tourneys and such are packed full of people playing them. What that means is all you can tell is how strong an army is against demon armies, not really how strong they are against all armies.

In that regard the dark elves are lucky, as we have the ring to handle the the caster heavy list, we have the pendant to help handle BT attacks, we have the hydra to deal with regenerating plague bearers. Saying the dark elves are better vs demons then most does nothing to really represent the true balance of the army.

Kerill
15-01-2009, 16:44
"deathless draich" is not biased towards DE. :)

TonyFlow
15-01-2009, 16:52
When comparing to the WoC's Shaggoth, i think that 225pts for a Hydra is extremely reasonable, as it is now its 90pts cheaper than the shaggoth with more or less the same stats, but including breath weapon and regeneration.

EvC
15-01-2009, 16:52
Alternatively, find out where the ring is first time, then don't cast spells in that direction until it's dealt with!

Of course, nobody thought of that did they :p

This is funny from someone who was proudly proclaiming that they got past the Ring of hotek earlier in the thread by simply rolling a 1,2,3,4,5 for their spell ;)

It's a good point that the Ring of Hotek is useless against some armies. A scroll caddy usually costs upwards of 100 points, but Dark Elves can get the best defensive item in the game for just 25 points. However, the key is, that a scroll caddy does still provide some protection against invocation-spamming Vampires, prayer-heavy Empire and Tomb Kings, but the Ring does not. Anyone who does rely on the Ring for their entire magic defence will have an almost impossible time against Tomb Kings (Although they make up for it with more troops and goodies that would otherwise go to magic defence).

You know what would be a great change to the army? If a Black Guard or Cold One Champion could take the Seal of Ghrond, but the Ring was made 30 points. I assure you, that way we'd see both items in Dark Elf armies.

I still say Hydras aren't THAT great, they're just too cheap. Just a few days ago I played against Dark Elves and charged the Hydra with a big unit of Skeletons with War Banner. He scored an average number of kills (6) and was subequently broken. And that would work with any ranked infantry unit, Swordsmen, Spearelves, whatever. Just avoid the flaming breath ;)

Kerill
15-01-2009, 16:53
^^^^
Don't forget the hatred +2 extra attacks and +6 S3 AP attacks

t-tauri
15-01-2009, 16:54
A number of posts deleted and warnings issued. Please read the posting guidelines and post accordingly. Offensive arguments and trolling will not be tolerated.

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition

EvC
15-01-2009, 16:55
"deathless draich" is not biased towards DE. :)

And don't forget druchii lord narakh, I'm sure his opinion on Dark Elves is the most objective of all :D

Frankly
15-01-2009, 16:55
When comparing to the WoC's Shaggoth,

lol well yeah lets not compare it to an utter piece of crap though.:D

TonyFlow
15-01-2009, 17:16
Haha, you are right that the Shaggoth is worthless... But it is quite disturbing that two lists released so close to eachother have such inconsistencies. In my world these two monsters should be at about the same strength level. But then again, DE get regeneration for 35pts while WoC get it for 50. And why is the command group for the DE warriors that cheap? They are cheaper than for empire soldiers that cost the same. I am not saying these things make the list broken, but it disturbs me how inconsistent the army books are.

Shamfrit
15-01-2009, 17:56
This is funny from someone who was proudly proclaiming that they got past the Ring of hotek earlier in the thread by simply rolling a 1,2,3,4,5 for their spell ;)


I did that knowing fully well that I had the Puppet; hoping to get the RIP killing or 12 result, but alas, I rolled godly instead :(

Frankly
15-01-2009, 18:58
Haha, you are right that the Shaggoth is worthless... But it is quite disturbing that two lists released so close to eachother have such inconsistencies. In my world these two monsters should be at about the same strength level. But then again, DE get regeneration for 35pts while WoC get it for 50. And why is the command group for the DE warriors that cheap? They are cheaper than for empire soldiers that cost the same. I am not saying these things make the list broken, but it disturbs me how inconsistent the army books are.

I totally see your point.

Not that I'm defending the DE armybook, but 35pts regeneration most likely has something to do with T4 verse T3. Other than that I can't argue with the rest of your points.

DeathlessDraich
15-01-2009, 19:55
"deathless draich" is not biased towards DE. :)


And don't forget druchii lord narakh, I'm sure his opinion on Dark Elves is the most objective of all :D

Just for that I'm going to change my citizenship to Druchii - get me the passport office now! :p

:D DE was actually my son's army while I played Chaos when I first started Warhammer.

Of the elves, I like Wood elves most. Only played with HE once or twice.

I think players tend to like or dislike armies if they enjoy reading their backgrounds and stories. I don't enjoy this aspect although I enjoy inventing my own.

EDIT - You're right about the Hydra EvC - 2 players who play against each other - DE with a Double Hydra list and Daemons with 5 Flamers.
5 Flamers decimate the Hydras every time!

Aglemar
15-01-2009, 20:08
I think the hydra feels under priced mainly because a lot of creatures tend to be overpriced. I could be wrong but for comparison's sake we could take a look at Cold One Knights. I don't have my book on hand but...

6 CoK with a unit champ costs about the same as a hydra (maybe a bit more)

The CoK hit harder, more accurately, have about the same or better defense, they cause fear instead of terror but have a higher US, take a special instead of a rare, and moves faster. The CoK have better synergy with lords or the CoB, can get more static combat res, are more likely to break/auto break, and in my opinion have better models. The hydra only really has a breath weapon going for it and the lack of stupidity (which is more annoying then game breaking).

The hydra seems powerful compared to some other monsters but it doesn't really seem out of line with other models who can do the same job.

EDIT: I would like to point out the irony that my defense of the Hydra is the 175th reply in this thread

EvC
15-01-2009, 23:33
Compare like with like. A monster is a monster, not a unit of Knights ;)

Havock
15-01-2009, 23:37
Doesn't that mean that DE are the average no? Meaning the problem is that WoC and HE are underpowered...

HE are definately not underpowered, I just think the problem is that the players tend to be lazy and rely on a ASF+ S7 dragon = autowin cookiecutter strategy.

Draconian77
16-01-2009, 01:52
We get your point, encourage people to take the other rare choice. But it's not that simple. As long as the Hydra remains way too powerful for its points cost, it means an army contaiing one has an inherent advantage.

Sigh. Its not "way too powerful for its points cost", its undercosted but people are definately blowing it out of proportion. I would definately raise it to 200-210pts. Also, whilst it could be said that any army including models that are undercosted has an advantage this becomes much less of an issue because A)No(Most) army book(s) has(have) units that aren't undercosted and B)Points are only a rough guide anyway. This isn't a game where you need a 500pt unit to kill a 500pt unit.

People already have the choice of taking a Hydra and two Bolt Throwers- and the smart Dark Elf players have been doing that for a while. Two Hydras is seen as being broken, but the Hydra and Bolter combo is still pretty great.

But it is seen as the lesser of two evils. Besides you want to encourage a balanced list, and a Hydra + Bolt Throwers is certainly more balanced than 2 Hydras/4 Bolt Throwers.

If someone fields an army consisting of all the tricks, and one Hydra and two Bolt Throwers, then that army does not become more balanced by dropping the price of the bolt throwers by 20 points and increasing the Hydra by 25- it gives the Dark Elf player an additional 15 points to play with! If that's your idea for balancing a strong list, all I can do is laugh :D

Its part of balancing. It corrects one internal balance problem within the book.
You have to take this solution in the context that I present it.
All units within all books should be internally balanced.
Now this is never going to happen, but the Hydra isn't going to get mystically more expensive because people whine about it either.

What you want to encourage are balanced lists with the option to specialise if the player likes to play in a certain style, but the current system nearly forces people to specialise in one area because thats the way their book is set up.

Also 2 Hydras are exponentially stronger than 1.
*Applies to basically anything, science approves.

What the Hydra needs is simply to be appropriately costed in the first place- 225 points.

That doesn't help in the correct way. Without making the competing unit better for their points(As in, appropriately costed, which Reapers aren't.) you either get 1 Hydra and no other rare choice or you get Bidras and a slightly smaller Druchii army.

Then people have to think about whether to take it or Bolt Throwers instead. Simple.

No they don't. If something isn't really well priced then raising the cost of something that is undercosted and competing still doesn't encourage the other unit to be taken by enough to see a large percentage swing. For example, if Black Guard where to be increased by 1-2pts a model you still wouldn't see Executioners because they still aren't worth 12pts, even though the competition got more expensive.

But - and this is according to a playtester - the Hydra was simply underpriced to sell more of the excellent new model they released.

I never trust those sort of lines.

Congratulations, by telling people off for having the audacity to field powerful and exciting Lord choices, you are encouraging your opponents to bring the dullest lords in the entire game. Well done. Is that really the game you want to see?

Its what you see anyway. I'm sorry but its not just DE players that like to optimise their characters. Characters just won't ever be balanced. (Well with serious work they could be, but GW aren't fans of serious work by the looks of things.)

Silence! Silence!

EvC
16-01-2009, 12:24
Okay, for a start: NOT EVERY DARK ELF ARMY HAS TWO HYDRAS. Okay, there, I said it. And it was easy. However, even when just one Hydra is present, it is still far too strong for its points cost. We can quibble over whether it should go up 35 points or 50 points, it doesn't matter.

They key for as to why people are more likely to take 1 Hydra over 2 Bolt Throwers is actually very simple, I thought you might have worked it out by yourself, but that was clearly asking too much.
Hydra = 175 points
2 Bolt Throwers = 200 points

Now, do you see why someone with around 200 points in his army is more likely to take a Hydra rather than two Reapears? Yep... the Hydra is cheaper. Thus, the key to making the Reapers a more attractive choice is to make them cheaper than the Hydra. Now, the Hydra is underpriced- you have unwillingly agreed this, but you have. Thus, increase the Hydra's price to some way beyond 200 points. The Bolt Throwers ARE an attractive choice to Dark Elf players as it is. They are some of the only anti-armour weapons in the Dark Elf army. They do not need to be made cheaper. People will take them in preference.

Black Guard and Executioners, I agree with you somewhat. If BG went up a point, it would make Exes more likely to be taken, but still nowhere near as much as they should be. A points drop there might be ok. But not on the Bolt Throwers.

An analogy for your suggestion: many people really hate Vampire Counts armies casting on one dice over and over and over again, which is fair enough. It's dull and annoying. I'm a VC player, I know that much. So, you want to make casting on 1 dice less attractive, and more attractive on 2 dice. How about... any roll of 1-3 fails with Vampires... but they can't ever miscast on 2 dice. Instantly you'd see Vampire Counts players casting on 2 dice a lot more.

And they'd be laughing. Just like Dark Elf players would be if the suggestion to make 2 Reapers and a Hydra overall cheaper for them to field by several points was taken up.

Draconian77
16-01-2009, 13:46
Okay, for a start: NOT EVERY DARK ELF ARMY HAS TWO HYDRAS. Okay, there, I said it. And it was easy. However, even when just one Hydra is present, it is still far too strong for its points cost.

I can't agree with this statement though. Its not "far too stong." Its more like 20-ish% underpriced. But other armies will include their units that are underpriced as well, its not as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be...

One Hydra is strong but not game breaking, 2 Hydras can be nearly overwhelming because you don't have the resources or the time in most cases to stop them.

They key for as to why people are more likely to take 1 Hydra over 2 Bolt Throwers is actually very simple, I thought you might have worked it out by yourself, but that was clearly asking too much.

I suggest you re-read my reply? Its all there, including unit cost.

Now, do you see why someone with around 200 points in his army is more likely to take a Hydra rather than two Reapears? Yep... the Hydra is cheaper. Thus, the key to making the Reapers a more attractive choice is to make them cheaper than the Hydra.

Not necessarily true, thats just the conclusion you reached.
What you want to do is make everything appropraitely costed for what it brings to the army.

Now, the Hydra is underpriced- you have unwillingly agreed this, but you have.

Nothing unwilling about it, its definately undercosted.


Thus, increase the Hydra's price to some way beyond 200 points. The Bolt Throwers ARE an attractive choice to Dark Elf players as it is.

Not as attractive as they used to be as we have some decent alternatives now.

They are some of the only anti-armour weapons in the Dark Elf army. They do not need to be made cheaper. People will take them in preference.

I wouldn't. Something which is overcosted for its role is not made instantly more attractive by the competition being raised in price. I already proved that with the Executioners vs Black Guard example.


Black Guard and Executioners, I agree with you somewhat. If BG went up a point, it would make Exes more likely to be taken, but still nowhere near as much as they should be. A points drop there might be ok. But not on the Bolt Throwers.

I would see this as you "unwillingly" conceding the point that I am making...because it is.

An analogy for your suggestion: many people really hate Vampire Counts armies casting on one dice over and over and over again, which is fair enough. It's dull and annoying. I'm a VC player, I know that much. So, you want to make casting on 1 dice less attractive, and more attractive on 2 dice. How about... any roll of 1-3 fails with Vampires... but they can't ever miscast on 2 dice. Instantly you'd see Vampire Counts players casting on 2 dice a lot more.

And they'd be laughing.

That analogy is one of the dumbest and most inept things I have ever seen posted on Warseer. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Just like Dark Elf players would be if the suggestion to make 2 Reapers and a Hydra overall cheaper for them to field by several points was taken up.

Again, this seems to be a conclusion you came to by yourself. I mean, lets say we raise the Hydra by 40 and drop the Bolt Throwers by 20 each. Now its even.

Silence! Silence!

Emeraldw
16-01-2009, 14:16
HE are definately not underpowered, I just think the problem is that the players tend to be lazy and rely on a ASF+ S7 dragon = autowin cookiecutter strategy.

Didn't you know Princes with Star Dragons are mandatory in all High Elf lists?

Though even if you don't use the star dragons, High Elves still have a good list.

EvC
16-01-2009, 15:35
Not as attractive as they used to be as we have some decent alternatives now.

There it is Draconian, in black and white (this time ;) ). The Repear Bolt Throwers are the SAME as they always were. They weren't bad in the old book, and they're the same in the new book. If they were no good in the last book- people would have just taken Crossbowmen in their place. That they didn't, tells us that the Reapers were, and still are, worth having. Especially in an age where the answer to movst problems is to "just shoot it!". It's just we see less of them now because the Hydra was underpriced on purpose (whether you believe it or not is immaterial).

Remember: the problems people speak of regarding the Dark Elf army do not always revolve around the Hydra (But it's clearly the most obvious. Must be the large target status). You will not improve the playability of the Dark Elf army by taking a common choice and making it cheaper.


I would see this as you "unwillingly" conceding the point that I am making...because it is.

Indeed I said that the Executioners could do with a boost a long while ago- so long as Black Guard got a proportionate decrease in power. Unlike 90% of people in this thread, I am happy to change my mind if people make a good argument.


That analogy is one of the dumbest and most inept things I have ever seen posted on Warseer. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

If you see it as dumb, then the analogy is successful. Your idea to solve a problem with a x being undervalued by the players is to give them a boost elsewhere. It doesn't matter if that is single-dice casting we are talking about, or Teclis, or a War Hydra, the notion that it is fixed by making other troops cheaper is indeed inept. I once saw someone say Teclis deserves to be underpriced so vastly because Archers are so expensive. That was moronic; you are not, thankfully, but you see how stupid the idea can be.

At least you have cottoned on to the idea that at the very least any "price adjustment" would have to be even at the very least.

But your suggestion still fails abysmally because a Dark Elf gunline now becomes even stronger and duller to face. Four Reapers for 320 points would wreck the game even more than an underpriced Hydra!

A good rule of thumb when discussing rules changes: ask yourself, "Does this make gunlines more attractive?". If the answer is ever yes, then back to the drawing board ;)

Mireadur
16-01-2009, 15:46
My favourite HE list (2500) is:

-Prince on foot,lvl2 mage on foot, noble on barded horse, bsb on foot.

15 spearmen x2
16 archers
9 silverhelms
7 ellyrian reavers
7 shadow warriors
2x tiranoc chariots
14 white lions
2x RBT
1 giant eagle

And small variations of it.

Its given me really fair games vs my friendly opponents unless fighting VC.

Aglemar
16-01-2009, 17:26
When you have the choice of a dirt road and a gravel road, you choose the gravel road. When you have the choice of a gravel road and a paved road, you choose the paved road.

Are gravel roads good? No, there just better then dirt roads.

Your argument for the repeater bolt thrower is flawed in this way. They are average at best, but an average choice in an army with alot of bad choices is still better.

EvC
16-01-2009, 17:43
Well that summarises it nicely. They're an average choice; I totally agree. Average value is what all choices should to be: I'm not saying units should not be fun or powerful, just that they should have an appropriate points value to reflect that. The Bolt Thrower does. It doesn't need changing... well, the Hydra doesn't NEED changing, the Dark Elf army is fully playable as it is... it would just be a good thing for balance :)

Aglemar
16-01-2009, 18:02
The only complaint I have about two hydras is that it would be boring. The most fun is when you use a variety of units each with different tricks and tactics. When you load up on one type of creature like having two hydras then it reduces the fun of the game. This is compounded when you take a dragon, manticore, or both as well.

I think the main reason we see a lot of two hydras lists is just the fact there are only two rare choices. There are two camps, some who like taking bolt throwers and some who don't, when you don't theres not anything else to take really.

Condottiere
16-01-2009, 18:03
TBH, the RBT probably is a tad overcosted.

Kerill
16-01-2009, 19:54
I disagree RBTs are underpowered. They aren't cannons, but there are some things they are better at, some things less so. Still HE players would be happy with a points reduction too, wouldn't make it balanced though.

Mireadur
16-01-2009, 20:06
I believe RBTs are slightly overpriced. Maybe it should be 8 bolts instead 6... i dont know.

Condottiere
16-01-2009, 20:51
Let's not get carried away, six multi-bolts are sufficient for my peace of mind.

lachlanwizard
16-01-2009, 23:30
dragon is strong and fluffy, i think they are the only race to abuse dragons?
hydra is cheap as hell by about 50 points
pendant is the best item in the game, i would think it should be 50 at least
most dark elf items blow
magic blows and arcane items are either too situational or too dangerous
ring of hotek is exceptional and can totally hamstring an army
i think harpies are overrated when used in several units but a unit of one or two is quite strong
dark elves can dominate movement pretty convincingly

i'm a dark elf player

vampires and daemons blow

W0lf
16-01-2009, 23:39
magic blows and arcane items are either too situational or too dangerous

seriously???

Field

Lvl 4 with sacrificial dagger, scroll, 2x power stones
Lvl 2, +1 PD, Scroll.

Thats a pretty sick magic phase for the points put in when utalied effectivly. E.G throw one dice at PoD then use dagger if needed. Followed by using those dice to cast something else etc etc.

Frankly
16-01-2009, 23:46
TBH, the RBT probably is a tad overcosted.


Really? 4 x RBTs can control so much of the game if used well. 400pts is a good costing for that.


I don't get the argument about RBTs verses Hydras for rare spots. Thats just not how most the tournament players I know pick of unit. Generally Its chosen on how well that unit performs at a given task in a list. RBTs and Hydras perform very different tasks.

I know someone in the club who's trying to get a mobile bashy DE list up and running with 2 hydras and assault units.

A person in my gaming group is trying to get his ASF bunker list support going with 3/4 RBTs in his list.

I'm running neither in my fast cavalry list.

The thing is all of us ain't going to select either of the rare choices, just because of undercosting. if the unit isn't going to perform in the list ... its not going to work. Especailly when they're as chalk and cheese like RBTs and Hydras.

Dooks Dizzo
17-01-2009, 00:09
Bump Execs up to 2 attacks base and Booyeah! you'd see them played all over.

Frankly
17-01-2009, 00:13
lol. yeah. That'll balance out the book.

sroblin
17-01-2009, 00:25
The problem with executioner isn't how hard they hit, S6 + killing blow + hatred rerolls is plenty deadly even if it's not quite the meatgrinder that a unit of swordmasters is; the problem is that they are T3 5+ armor and foot infantry, so they really need to charge the enemy (and win before great weapons striking last kicks in); without the blackguards ASF banner or the cheapness of spearmen, they can't afford to receive charges, they depend on killing the enemy with their (admittedly potent) attacks to win combats. Were they capable of taking the ASF banner, people would take them all the time (and their would still be reasons to choose Blackguards for stubborn and greater efficiency versus low toughness troops). Were they faster, they might be able to choose their battles and make sure they get the charge (not that there is a really feasible justification for them having higher movement.) Executioners want to be fighting cavalry monsters and character, but most of these can charge them outside their range and kill most of the front rank before they can strike.

RBTs are a very average choice; I don't quite understand why people fear them, but they manage to work well enough for what they are without being abusive. If you get two, you are basicall buying 12 BS4 handgunners for 200 points (better targetting flexibility and frontage, similar damage absorption), and the ability to switch to S6 bolts when appropriate. I wouldn't mind them getting a point decrease to allow the fitting in of other more interesting things for both HE and DE, but EvC is right that 4x RBTS is already a popular choice, and it is kind of ridiculous to argue that the solution to one option being too good versus other armies for its points is to make the one its competing with internallybetter! Than you simply have two things that are too good instead of one.

Dooks Dizzo
17-01-2009, 00:36
lol. yeah. That'll balance out the book.Balance? What is this silly thing called balance supposed to be?

I take it back though, they don't need 2 attacks base, they need Frenzy :)

Honestly though I do not like the trend of giving Great Weapon units ASF that has gotten so popular. There must be a better way, Exec models are too cool for them to suck that bad.

Dokushin
17-01-2009, 00:36
175pts to 225pts is a huge points jump. Is it worth 225pts? Would people still run it in a army .... besides for looks?

Its a large target, limited to movement 6. Playable in pairs, but not brilliant by it's self. For example, I ran over one with a unit of B.knights(+strigoi banner) with a thrall(Red fury + Balefire lance), any walking beast has charge range limitations and are subject to getting charged rather than charging.

A Hydra does hit like a brick though.

:wtf: Yeah, you're right, large target M6 models would be unplayable at 225 pts...

Tell ya what. What if we took away the breath weapon, made the handlers weaker and targetable, made the attacks only work on the charge, and took away regeneration? Then, after that, we give you a BS3 bolt thrower, so then we made it 60 points more expensive.

Do you know what you call that? A Stegadon.

Now, seriously, it's a little bit apples to oranges. But saying M6 Large 225 pts is unplayable is true only if Stegadons are unplayable, which they're not. Hydras are EASILY the equal of stegadons, and they cost 60 points less.

lachlanwizard
17-01-2009, 00:52
seriously???

Field

Lvl 4 with sacrificial dagger, scroll, 2x power stones
Lvl 2, +1 PD, Scroll.

Thats a pretty sick magic phase for the points put in when utalied effectivly. E.G throw one dice at PoD then use dagger if needed. Followed by using those dice to cast something else etc etc.


well, sure. but there are major problems with survivability, positioning and being forced to stay in a block formation of weak troops with a mage lord. i was always a fan of the mobile sorceress and i feel that de can't get a proper army linchpin in this edition.

and 'frankly', using the argument that the hydra got steamrolled by the most powerful cavalry unit in the entire game with one of the hittiest fighter heroes is so irredeemably missing the point i can barely believe

Dooks Dizzo
17-01-2009, 00:54
Level 4 with Pendant and a Black Staff...on a Dragon :)
Level 2 with dagger and scroll in a block of spears

I get some seriously awesome magic phases.

sroblin
17-01-2009, 00:55
Honestly though I do not like the trend of giving Great Weapon units ASF that has gotten so popular. There must be a better way, Exec models are too cool for them to suck that bad.

It certainly illustrates how dramatically the power level of the game has changed since 6th edition! Swordmasters and Executioners, both with one attack at S3 were both considered decent choices back then. Now if it doesn't have ASF or M6, it's supposedly rubbish.

But I think the reality is that designers are basically acknowledging the important advantages cavalry had over elite infantry in thegame (defensively, offensively, and in getting the charge), and are trying to improve the elite infantry's abilities to compete with the cavalry in either damage output (multiple attacks) or beating back chargers (through ASF). However, by raising the bar, and increasingly large gap is being created between units that win by virtue of having cheap ranks and those that win through kills for which the units that meet neither ideal seem increasingly obsolete.

lachlanwizard
17-01-2009, 01:01
Level 4 with Pendant and a Black Staff...on a Dragon :)
Level 2 with dagger and scroll in a block of spears

I get some seriously awesome magic phases.

actually, good point. for some reason i just dislike de magic and it's a personal choice. ignore me for being dumb.

i think that this game needs more of an emphasis on pike units that aren't incredibly expensive. a neat, tactical unit with inherent disadvantages due to having only one direction to use the weapons in. make cavalry a harder choice.

Dooks Dizzo
17-01-2009, 01:06
Even though it gets awefully costly, I think sticking an assassin into a unit of executioners might be a good way to go. You get charged, the assassin kills down a couple guys, you get poked and then should have enough guys to strike back and do some damage.

Then +1 for banner, +2 for ranks, +1 for outnumber and away she goes!

The trick I have learned to protecting my BG from shooting is to give them a more dangerous target to shoot at instead. My poor Cold One Knights...

Draconian77
17-01-2009, 04:40
There it is Draconian, in black and white (this time ;) ). The Repear Bolt Throwers are the SAME as they always were.

Are you 10?
Think about it.
If something is the same as it used to be and then the things competing with it get better or its role becomes more valuable then its no longer the same.

They weren't bad in the old book, and they're the same in the new book. If they were no good in the last book- people would have just taken Crossbowmen in their place. That they didn't, tells us that the Reapers were, and still are, worth having. Especially in an age where the answer to movst problems is to "just shoot it!". It's just we see less of them now because the Hydra was underpriced on purpose (whether you believe it or not is immaterial).

Remember: the problems people speak of regarding the Dark Elf army do not always revolve around the Hydra (But it's clearly the most obvious. Must be the large target status). You will not improve the playability of the Dark Elf army by taking a common choice and making it cheaper.

You can't really know this without trying it on an army-per-army basis can you?
I mean its true thats it's not only the Hydra, its only the most obvious offender because A)It was terrible last edition and I expect many players expected it to stay that way and B)It is one of the harder elements to counter.

If you see it as dumb, then the analogy is successful. Your idea to solve a problem with a x being undervalued by the players is to give them a boost elsewhere. It doesn't matter if that is single-dice casting we are talking about, or Teclis, or a War Hydra, the notion that it is fixed by making other troops cheaper is indeed inept. I once saw someone say Teclis deserves to be underpriced so vastly because Archers are so expensive. That was moronic; you are not, thankfully, but you see how stupid the idea can be.

Its a inept analogy you because you changed game mechanics to sort out game mechanics. I am changing points values to sort out games mechanics. The difference is vast.
*It is only a moronic idea applied incorrectly(Two things with similar roles, a 2 point shift of power will cause one to outperform the other), although I would also like to add(strictly personal) that nearly all SC's are undercosted/broken in some way and that using them as comparative for something else in an army point is lunacy.

At least you have cottoned on to the idea that at the very least any "price adjustment" would have to be even at the very least.

It does seem like the most reasonable approach.

But your suggestion still fails abysmally because a Dark Elf gunline now becomes even stronger and duller to face. Four Reapers for 320 points would wreck the game even more than an underpriced Hydra!

Thats an absurd argument to make for several reasons.

-Gunlines are nothing new to Warhammer or DE. 80pts extra will buy a DE gunline an extra unit of 5 Dark Riders if they could could another 10pts. Now, if you where going to be mauled pre-additional Dark Riders then the extra models influence on the game is minimal. This comes down to gunlines in most cases being a jan-ken-pon sort of army.

-Most generals will know how to minimise the effectiveness of gunlines if they are experienced, everyone has played against them at some point.

-Most lists will have units whose sole role is that of warmachine hunting or disruption.

-Most lists will have access to screens, scouts, skirmishers or a items that help protect against shooting.

-You can already field armies with 4x Bolt Throwers/generic war machine with more crew and less points invested.

A good rule of thumb when discussing rules changes: ask yourself, "Does this make gunlines more attractive?". If the answer is ever yes, then back to the drawing board ;)

I don't see it as making gunlines much more attractive. DE as an army have little substantial firepower, you can debate this all you want but any army relying on S3 multiple shot weapons will have difficulty against certain armies(Leading it into an even more situational scenario) Also, if the Hydra is as powerful as the anti-Druchii players are saying then you would expect to see a minimum of 1 per army even if it did increase by 40pts.

I think its great that some of the issues and possible solutions are coming to light, but isn't it all a bit pointless to argue when we know GW won't fix it for another decade or so?

[EDIT]Didn't see this until after I posted.

"The thing is all of us ain't going to select either of the rare choices, just because of undercosting. if the unit isn't going to perform in the list ... its not going to work. Especailly when they're as chalk and cheese like RBTs and Hydras."

The only problem there is that a new player who sees the book and has an IQ of above 50 will notice how good the Hydra is at its role and notice that the rest of the army can be built to complement its playstyle.(Aggressive...)

Would be people please stop saying chalk...I blame Kerill for this!

Condottiere
17-01-2009, 05:27
While not quite as over-powering as Daemons, I'd say that DE have the best combined arms lists, which is great for them and something to aim for in every future AB yet to be written. My personal opinion is that there were quite a number of items that were just undercosted isolated, and at a minimum seriously bent when combined.

Draconian77
17-01-2009, 08:26
Possibly, although I never really blame 1-per army items for power creep.
I still feel that the whole book was lazily designed and whilst some things came out well, others fell way behind.

Units that fell behind: Death Hag, Manticore(Just due to a lack of anything resembling a save and a points hike that was frankly, unjustified), Corsairs(Too expensive), Witch-Elves(Their niche role is an uneccesary one), Executioners(They rarely accomplish their role) and Reapers(Partly because they are slightly overcosted, partly because the Hydra is undercosted)

If you look through most Dark Elf lists online you should see these units showing up in small percentages compared to anything else.
Thats not good news, it means obvious discrepencies within the book were allowed to slip through whatever playtesting was made.
*Although it is the same for nearly all GW army books.

Frankly
17-01-2009, 09:06
The only problem there is that a new player who sees the book and has an IQ of above 50 will notice how good the Hydra is at its role and notice that the rest of the army can be built to complement its playstyle.(Aggressive...)



And by day 2 on the top tables at tournaments this kind of player is always up there. ;)

As I said choosing a unit of the context of an armylist, not choosing a armylist because of a unit, there is a difference.

Its like chalk and cheese.


.... just kidding:angel:

chaospantz
17-01-2009, 09:28
Havent had a chance to use black guard yet but I almost think they fall into the same catagory as the hydra. Got a good uprade in that they were bumped down from rare and are a good 3 points cheaper than they used to be. That would be fine but they also gave them 2 attacks each. I would say given what they can do they should run the same points as the HE sword masters and make them 14 or 15 each.

As for the ASF banner 35 pts dose seem slightely cheap. At that cost its only ever going on Cold one knights, Black Guard, or with a BSB. Could be taken up to 45 and would cost the same as the VC banner of the borrows.

Dooks Dizzo
17-01-2009, 15:23
I run 1 Hydra and 1 Reaper :)

Just out of curiosity though, is there an army out there where everything is just as valid as everything else? I bet you could list 5 or 6 units for each army book that rarely see the table for one reason or another.

On that note, Dark Elves are awesomely powerful and I am happy as hell I picked them up!

Shamfrit
17-01-2009, 16:13
Characters arn't Khainate because LD10 Stubborn and LD9 stubborn on 5 units max is not something I'm sure we'd all be too happy with...(Cauldron of Blood.)

Jack Spratt
17-01-2009, 16:37
I have not read the entire thread so the following is just in relation to the OP and the first page...

I love the DE list. It is very good, even a little better than the HE list, on par with the Vamps IMO. I do not play them my self but have played many times against them since the new edition. The Ring of Hotek should cost around a 100 points or have a different range, say like 6'. Other than that I see no problem with the list at all. One of the most useful magic lists in the game because it plays to the strengths of the DE.

In short... I just do not see the problem.

Go complain about Daemons or Orcs instead, there you will find something to comlain about.

Jack

Dareus
17-01-2009, 18:25
I'm also fine with the "new" Dark Elves.
BUT...
As some of you already mentioned I HATE Lords on Dragons. They're sooo 3rd Ed. that I can't really stand it. The DE Dragon Lord is especially overpowered. In my last Game with WoC I simply had nothing to do against it as I dislike to field a Dragon myself. The DE Dragon Lord (although a bit lucky) caused 500 points of damage thorugh terror tests and another 1000 points of damage via close combat (hatred is very powerful here as others already mentioned) and breath weapon. And there was absolutely nothing you could tactically do against it...very dull.
On the other hand I'm actually also fine with the Ring of Hotek. Ok...It also renders magic useless against the dragon lord. But the main problem I see is the options you have because of it. The DE can either field an optimised all-magic list which is rather deadly using DE-magic. Close combat characters are really expendable as Assassins do really well killing-blow each and every close combat opponent on average rolls. To defend against this all-magic-stuff you need a fair amount of wizardry yourself. But when now the Ring of Hotek is present and lets say a scroll-caddy, you can't even use your magic properly as an offensive force. So it is really paper-rock-scissors again, where DEs have acces to the well ;).

But apart from these two facts (dragon lord being a menace in most lists) I really like the Dark Elves list. I only ever faced one Hydra at a time so can't really complain about these.

deggaroth
17-01-2009, 19:02
I find it exceedingly amusing that people are whining about how people should be taking executioners instead of blackguard, since I have played battles where my executioners were more ungodly then the bg.

Anyway, I think that whining about whether dark elves are cheesy or not is rather useless, since it's not going to change anything. Wouldn't you think your time would be better spent trying to brainstorm how to beat the druchii? They may be powerful, but they're not unbeatable. After all, if I could find ways to use my 6th ed druchii to beat cheesey 6th ed armies such as dwarven gunlines and SAD, you shouldn't have a problem figuring out a way to annihilate a bunch of T3 elves. ;)

fubukii
17-01-2009, 20:21
I find it exceedingly amusing that people are whining about how people should be taking executioners instead of blackguard, since I have played battles where my executioners were more ungodly then the bg.

Anyway, I think that whining about whether dark elves are cheesy or not is rather useless, since it's not going to change anything. Wouldn't you think your time would be better spent trying to brainstorm how to beat the druchii? They may be powerful, but they're not unbeatable. After all, if I could find ways to use my 6th ed druchii to beat cheesey 6th ed armies such as dwarven gunlines and SAD, you shouldn't have a problem figuring out a way to annihilate a bunch of T3 elves. ;)


ill say the same thing but for daemons.
Instead of complaing how oped daemons are just find ways to beat them they arent unbeatable.

W0lf
17-01-2009, 23:25
Characters arn't Khainate because LD10 Stubborn and LD9 stubborn on 5 units max is not something I'm sure we'd all be too happy with...(Cauldron of Blood.)

Why would you advance on that... ever?

You force it to come to you or at least outside of the stubborn range.

Oh and why couldnt you just make the cauldren 'Khanite UNITS' ifyou made characters khanite? Pretty simple solution to me.

Oh and DE can do almost any build well. Great shooting/magic/combat/cav they have it all.

Dooks Dizzo
18-01-2009, 02:26
So far I am 4 and 2 with my Druchii in 2250 games and my lossed came from my errors, not the armies.

2 Massacres against Wood Elves
1 Massacre against Warriors of Chaos
1 Solid against another Dark Elf army
1 loss against Warriors of Chaos
1 loss against Daemons

It is of note that the loss to Daemons was against a very balanced and fluffy list. No Greater Daemons, single unit of Flamers, one block of Plague Bearers, etc. And all the units were in multiples of the gods favored numbers.

I was simply out played :)

Tastyfish
18-01-2009, 11:46
I find it exceedingly amusing that people are whining about how people should be taking executioners instead of blackguard, since I have played battles where my executioners were more ungodly then the bg.

Anyway, I think that whining about whether dark elves are cheesy or not is rather useless, since it's not going to change anything. Wouldn't you think your time would be better spent trying to brainstorm how to beat the druchii? They may be powerful, but they're not unbeatable. After all, if I could find ways to use my 6th ed druchii to beat cheesey 6th ed armies such as dwarven gunlines and SAD, you shouldn't have a problem figuring out a way to annihilate a bunch of T3 elves. ;)

Statistically speaking, it is pretty much just the option to have the ASF banner that puts Black guard on top - otherwise an Executioner gets more wounds (or at least decimal points of wounds, 2A vs double the chance of wounding is about equal - and executioners are clearly superior against T4+) than a black guard does, and increases significantly more when you add a cauldron since their damage output increases by 100% rather than 50%.

Shamfrit
18-01-2009, 12:22
Death Hag + Cauldron, makes executioners better than Black Guard for the same price as a Master with the ASF Banner give or take, right?

Throw in a Death Hag with the Hydra banner BSB into the Executioners and suddenly that unit has surpassed the Black Guard.

In a Khainite themed Dark Elf army Executioners are fantastic, people just arn't willing to explore the slightly more difficult list approach.

sulla
18-01-2009, 14:34
Death Hag + Cauldron, makes executioners better than Black Guard for the same price as a Master with the ASF Banner give or take, right?

Throw in a Death Hag with the Hydra banner BSB into the Executioners and suddenly that unit has surpassed the Black Guard.

In a Khainite themed Dark Elf army Executioners are fantastic, people just arn't willing to explore the slightly more difficult list approach.

Death hag + ASF banner doesn't make executioners better than BG with a master because that master can take the pendant and tarpit anything scary that comes their way. He will also have a great weapon to crack hard targets that come his way. The BG will also be stubborn regardless of range to the cauldron. They will also not be easily baitable out of the cauldron's range because of a frenzied character. they will also never be autobroken by fear causers (or even worse, hitting on 6's in the first turn). And they will most likely either have the ring of hotek or a null stone and the crimson death for unit support.

Witch hags having no magic item allowance and other characters not being able to join means you should never field executioners in bigger than 8-elf units IMO, 6 being their best size.

The only real good thing about either khainite unit is that you can take them at minimum size with an assassin (who will leave right away) and still have a functional unit at under 60pts for each.

Kerill
18-01-2009, 17:00
Complaining (as I have done at great length her and elsewhere) isn't the most constructive thing to do but it does establish issues and where they lie. This means that players with OP'd lists are "outed" for taking all the cheese and their lists are regarded as such. If all players in the group play the same way then most of them will on average lose against DE,VC and DOC all other things being equal. What this thread allows DE players to do is to see what combinations will bother other players and decide if they really want to go the cheese route. If the DE players in my group start using everything dodgy in one list against new players and doing victory laps I'll bring my daemons out of retirement and deal with them. Also if I don't crack out the daemons and beat them with my WOC or HE or TK and I win the satisfaction will be that much greater. If I loose the disappointment will also be much less. BUT I won't try to detract from my opponents victory by telling them their army is cheesy, the internet is the place to get some kind of agreement on that so things can stay friendly in your gaming group. The only army I have ever told my group is flat out broken are daemons, and that's because I was playing them.

This is especially the case because you more than likely make mistakes some time and if you had made one less you might have got a draw or a win. Learn from your mistakes and build on them and try to do better next time. When I first realised how powerful my daemons were I tried to find ways to combat them and mentioned some here and there. No-one for example has realised the power of a simple spear against a lot of daemon units.

It seems to be more or less accepted now that DE are up with the big boys in the potential cheese stakes, for me the ring and pendant are definitely cheese and hydras are undercosted to the point where taking two will definitely set the cheese alarm ringing. Even if these things mysteriously disappeared from the DE book it would still be stronger than any of the other books except DOC and VC because it already has the best units for most unit categories.

Havock
18-01-2009, 19:25
taking two hydra's is fine, it gets a bit smelly when there's also a dragonlord flying around.

theunwantedbeing
18-01-2009, 19:41
With 25mm base models running into the hydra 5 wide means the handlers form up on 1 side together, meaning 1 model will get to attack a handler.

With 20mm base models you need to be 6 wide to ensure the handlers are attackable. You'll get 2 models that can attack the handlers then.(so good idea to make one of them the unit champion).

Kill the handlers and the hydra has to take a leadership test on a 6, and if he doesnt become unbreakable (2/3 chance he wont) then he'll liekly lose combat and be quite easily broken (ld5 for a tets if he loses by 1) as well as only running 2D6 not 3D6.
If the hydra had mv7 it would be far too good for its cost and would undoubtedly cost a good 250points.

Template weapons and things that deal hits that arent distributed as shooting are very good for getting rid of handlers as they can actually hit them.

Just a bit of helpful info for those struggling to deal with the hydra.

Condottiere
18-01-2009, 19:46
Being fireproof helps, but I can only recall one unit with that trait.

Anvilbrow
18-01-2009, 20:28
Hydras only move as skirmishers as long as the handlers are alive. Charging is done as a monster etc.... someone please buy a rulebook =/

I do stand corrected on the LOS for monsters and handlers. I do not use any variation on those in my armies and was unclear on that. For that thanks. Forewarned is forearmed.

As for buying a rulebook? Please, I have seven editions of the rulebook, that's half my problem when I cannot remember a rule. I have various versions of it locked in my brain somewhere...

I stand by my argument however. Hydras to me are quite a bargain for what they do what with the regen, great breath weapon, hatred, terror, move as skirmisher etc.

I went to watch a round of a tourney here in the US yesterday and of 5 DE players there, I believe every one had a hydra, two lists had two... Hydras must breed like bunnies!

Baaltharus
18-01-2009, 21:58
Template weapons and things that deal hits that arent distributed as shooting are very good for getting rid of handlers as they can actually hit them.

Just a bit of helpful info for those struggling to deal with the hydra.

Are you sure template weapons can kill the handlers? I thought they were effectively invincble to ranged weapons. Hochlands and the like can't pick them out can they?

theunwantedbeing
18-01-2009, 22:40
Only hits that are randomised are incapable of hitting the handlers, all others hit them just fine.
As per the rules in the DE armybook.

Damn this site....whats with all the problems?

Condottiere
18-01-2009, 23:46
Only hits that are randomised are incapable of hitting the handlers, all others hit them just fine.
As per the rules in the DE armybook.

Damn this site....whats with all the problems?http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3213023#post3213023

Maybe this?

larabic
19-01-2009, 00:45
The only thing i have pause with for the DE is (of course) the Black Guard, i think they may have went a bit over the top with them, obviously the fixes i can think of are the obvious like 25pt banners only or a point increase but thats niether here nor there. I play Dwarfs primarily, so avoiding them isn't a real option i have to fight them, i will throw them a unit that will hold them for a few turns, a unit of warriors w/ Hand wep and shields or slayers usually does the trick.

I have played in several tourny's against DE and they have all been wins except 1 draw. If you kill everything but the black guard you will tie, reduce the black guard below half and you will probably win, they are that exspensive. Remember they have hatred which means you flee and they must persue, use this to set up traps, its easier then you think.

As far as people playing 2 hydras and a dragon? Well gods know what these people are thinking, if it's a friendly game you can choose to not play them... if its a tourny then give them a zero for army comp or for sportsmanship (yes army list building is part of sportsmanship in my opinion) if your tourny only relies on win / loss reocord, well then its time for you to petition your judge / organizer.

As far as the invert ward save thingy? Never met a ward save that couldn't be run down, or just draw your hand weapon and go to town! A str 4 no armorsave weapon can be found in some way in most books, or spells that do the same thing... just need to get a little creative.

Thats about all i got for now, enjoy your games!

The Red Scourge
19-01-2009, 04:38
...Other than that I dont see them as cheesy at all. No 17 power dice spam as far as the eye can see. No unbreakable army of ward saves, just a fairly well balanced army that has a large variety of units.

I agree, with everything else you said, but not this one, here's a little recipe:

Take 3 hero and a lord wizard at base 12 PD, each cast the bonus PD spell gaining on average 1 PD/model and raising the number to 16 PD and add the Sacrificial Dagger to the 5 spell lord to raise the number to 21 PD on average.

And I do believe that the DE have a very nice lore to use those PD on.

Draconian77
19-01-2009, 09:48
I'm going to go a little off topic here but seeing as how all the heated debate is seemingly over I doubt anyone will mind...

Is the DE lore really so powerful?

I have to say that I found the previous DE lore much more helpful. I know some of the spells are very good but some of them are very bad if you examine them in detail. Has the Dark Magic tactica being written yet? If not I may just get on that...

EvC
19-01-2009, 14:42
The Dark Elf Lore is incredibly powerful. For a start, a spell that makes free dice.

Spell 0: Throw two dice at it, and opponent will usually need to throw three dice at it to stop it. If not, you get your dice back. (Note: any Dark Elf player about to whine, "But if you don't use those dice, you take hits!", I ask: how often has that EVER happened to you? Thanks ;) ).
1: Basic magic missile. Most armies will let these go... but there's an added advantage to this spell, in that it stops the unit shooting. Fire this at handgunners, Wraiths, etc. and it's a "must-stop spell." For 5+...
2: Stronger magic missile, shorter range. Not spectacular, but certainly decent enough. Compare to the top Lore of Life spell which does the same damage for a lot more casting value...
3: TOP spell. Lasts until next magic phase, affects BS and WS, better range than Light magic with inferior effect. Often a "must-stop" spell... especially combined with the following spell:
4: On average 10 attacks, 5-7 hits, S4. For 8+ it's not amazing... except when people have characters in units. Sniping is a great power.
5: Supposedly weak, especially with short range, but can turn a game by itself. Wiping out a third of a typical unit, in close combat, and adding wounds to your Sorceress. A high casting value, yes, but when you cast this spell, you're really going to want it to go off so that's not a problem.
6: Massive template, no partials, no armour save. Possibly not even magic resistance. A beast of a spell.

All in all, Dark Magic is one of the best lores in the game. It's not crucial to Dark Elves to function as an army (As with Vampires), but it's a fantastic Lore, capable of so much damage for so easy. There's not a great selection of Arcane magic items, but the Dagger and the Focus Familar are both amazing.



I have played in several tourny's against DE and they have all been wins except 1 draw. If you kill everything but the black guard you will tie, reduce the black guard below half and you will probably win, they are that exspensive. Remember they have hatred which means you flee and they must persue, use this to set up traps, its easier then you think.

I'm not sure if it actually as easy as you think, to be honest :) Assuming you're using an army with breakable units, in order for this to work, the unit has to be both cheap and able to withstand the attacks of about 15 Black Guard- less if it's a small model like a Great Eagle. But even a Great Eagle has a good chance of dying should it charge a Black Guard unit, 8 attacks, 6 hits, on average Eagle explodes in puff of feathers. Yes, if you've placed the Eagle or whatever in front of the Eagle, they have to either stop or charge and overrun, so yes in that case setting up the trap is easy enough- but Dark Elves have more cheap support than most other armies, so will normally have something to kill the Eagle or stop the Black Guard from overruning too far.

Of course, it really all comes down to who plays best, but the Dark Elves get the advantage in those stakes, I believe. Unlimited 55 point flying units really gives them the edge :)

ekalb
19-01-2009, 15:47
Of course, it really all comes down to who plays best, but the Dark Elves get the advantage in those stakes, I believe. Unlimited 55 point flying units really gives them the edge :)

I would say that giving them ulimited harpie units is the only thing the really really bothers me in the new book. yes some items are out of banlance and the hydra is pretty much a buy one get one free kind of deal but this has been happening for years. I personally would have liked to see harpies as a unit that can only be brought if you have some other kind of unit. For example: you can bring one unit of harpies for every unit of warriors in the army.

W0lf
19-01-2009, 15:51
Harpies should have been a 2-1 special. Simple really isnt is?

(2 units per special slot if thats unclear)

ekalb
19-01-2009, 15:59
That would work really well now that I think about it.

Frankly
19-01-2009, 16:01
Is the DE lore really so powerful?



It must be the best direct damage lore in the game?

Can anyone think of a better one?

Frankly
19-01-2009, 16:02
Harpies should have been a 2-1 special. Simple really isnt is?

(2 units per special slot if thats unclear)

No Wrong!

.... or what would I done with the 30 harpies I just made.

I love my harpies.

Draconian77
19-01-2009, 16:11
The Dark Elf Lore is incredibly powerful. For a start, a spell that makes free dice.

Spell 0: Throw two dice at it, and opponent will usually need to throw three dice at it to stop it. If not, you get your dice back. (Note: any Dark Elf player about to whine, "But if you don't use those dice, you take hits!", I ask: how often has that EVER happened to you? Thanks ;) ).
1: Basic magic missile. Most armies will let these go... but there's an added advantage to this spell, in that it stops the unit shooting. Fire this at handgunners, Wraiths, etc. and it's a "must-stop spell." For 5+...
2: Stronger magic missile, shorter range. Not spectacular, but certainly decent enough. Compare to the top Lore of Life spell which does the same damage for a lot more casting value...
3: TOP spell. Lasts until next magic phase, affects BS and WS, better range than Light magic with inferior effect. Often a "must-stop" spell... especially combined with the following spell:
4: On average 10 attacks, 5-7 hits, S4. For 8+ it's not amazing... except when people have characters in units. Sniping is a great power.
5: Supposedly weak, especially with short range, but can turn a game by itself. Wiping out a third of a typical unit, in close combat, and adding wounds to your Sorceress. A high casting value, yes, but when you cast this spell, you're really going to want it to go off so that's not a problem.
6: Massive template, no partials, no armour save. Possibly not even magic resistance. A beast of a spell.



Hmm, fair to say that I don't entirely agree with you.

Chillwind is only a must stop spell if your relying on your shooting, most armies don't rely on shooting though. It is good but I think your overplaying it.

Doombolt is ok. It has its uses.

Word of Pain: Hardly fantastic, WS makes little impact on the game(For various reasons, the chart and the standard; "You lose your front rank" sort of fighting that is so common) and shooting is something Chillwind is meant to cover surely?

Bladewind: How often have you actually killed a character with this? Even a T3 Ws3 caster would require at least 3 successful casts statistically... Its true role is that of war-machine hunter, but again, other than a small niche its just another direct damage spell. (Which is inferior to the standard 2D6 S4 hits spells against most units)

Soul Stealer: Hmm, S2 says it all. There just aren't enough T3 units with really good saves to make this spell worth casting. Very useful on Morathi to prevent enemies from getting half Vp's for wounding her but again, thats one hell of a niche.

Black Horror: Yeah, this is disturbingly powerful. Can't say anything bad about it really.

I have never taken hits from the "Power of Darkness" spell. I don't see how you could other than a really unfortuante miscast in which case your magical plans have failed anyway...

Mireadur
19-01-2009, 16:47
It must be the best direct damage lore in the game?

Can anyone think of a better one?

Tzeentch daemons... but just by a little :p

Mireadur
19-01-2009, 16:50
I would say that giving them ulimited harpie units is the only thing the really really bothers me in the new book. yes some items are out of banlance and the hydra is pretty much a buy one get one free kind of deal but this has been happening for years. I personally would have liked to see harpies as a unit that can only be brought if you have some other kind of unit. For example: you can bring one unit of harpies for every unit of warriors in the army.

That is certainly the best tool developers have to keep the de usage of certain units under logical terms. Its a mistery why they dont use it more... (well, maybe not so misterious :p)

GrogsnotPowwabomba
19-01-2009, 16:55
The DE list isnt abusive at all really.
The biggest problem is that its what the old list should have been.
So we DE players got used to the old terrible list and got good with it.
So now we get an actually decent list thats an improvement on the old list and we're now far more capable of winning than we were before.

Amen. The cries of Dark Elf cheese make me laugh. I am, of course, biased, but still, its just silly the amount of crying people do about Dark Elves. People are just so used to Dark Elves being a **** army that now, when we actually have some good magic items and unit choices, they moan and complain.

We are on par with the other 7th Edition books post High Elves. Nothing more, nothing less.

EvC
19-01-2009, 17:02
Hehe, the way you respond is funny Draconian, why are you so quick to jump to the defence whenever anyone says anything POSITIVE about the army you play? Dark Elves are good- stop getting so worked up about people complimenting its power, it's not like an a personal affront!

Chillwind: as stated, it is better than a basic 1st spell magic missile for the same cost. This is simple fact. It's not about relying on shooting, it's about giving a weak spell an ability that makes it important to stop. In fact, you have it backwards as an army that RELIES on shooting, i.e. a gunline, will mind this spell the least, as they will have plenty of other shooting to go around. As has been stated many many times, if Black Guard are giving people problems, the solution is to simply shoot them. Yet a spell that stops a unit from shooting is over-rated... boy, consistency is such a drag.

Doombolt: yep, we agree :)

WoP: WS makes little impact, true, but do you know why? Clearly you don't. The main reason that WS makes such little impact is that there is not enough variance between the differences. WS5 vs WS3 is the same as WS5 vs WS4, only where you have extreme differences does it matter. Extreme differences such as WS10 or WS1. When a unit is WS1, it will hit almost everything on a 5 (Certainly, everything in a Dark Elf army), making it very much important. Furthermore it means that Dark Elves will hit everything on a 3+. Sure, that doesn't matter as much, since Dark Elves have high WS anyway, but being able to hit other powerful characters on a 3+ while they hit you on a 5+, golden. Your reference to Chillwind is facetious and stupid. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding the true power of this spell.

Bladewind: You make a good point about warmachine hunting. Otherwise, yes, it's not better than a 2D6 S4 magic missile, but the sniping aspect can make it a little better. Actually you'd need 4 castings to kill a WS3 T3 character, but if the spell goes off, getting rid of unit champions is very useful, as is reducing mages to 1 wound- makes miscasts even riskier.

Soul Stealer: yet more Dark Elf consistency. I've lost count of the number of times I've read that the solution to the Pendant is the 3D6 S1 no armour magic missile... yet all-hit S2 and no armour is poor when it's the Dark Elf doing the casting ;) It is situational, certainly. The situation being people using big units, or heavily armoured units. So, most games, in fact. The range is the true limiting factor- good thing they can buy the Focus Familiar to extend it to 18".

Black Horror: thank god for that ;)

Agree on Power of Darkness. Still looking to see if anyone is going to admit to miscasting due to their own Ring of Hotek though :D

The conclusion is, that the Dark Elf Lore is simply better than most rulebook lores. I can't say by how much, and I won't say it's better than Lore of the Vampires or some other army book lores... but it's damn powerful. Which is probably how it should be, no? Dark Elves are masters of evil magic, so it should be powerful. Not a complaint!

Aglemar
19-01-2009, 19:11
I think the dark elf magic is fine, though I don't think its better then all the ones in the rules book. I think its main advantage is that it is more focused then some of the rulebook lores. 5 of the 6 spells are medium range damage dealing spells, if you only have a level 2 there is not much risk involved in getting a spell that doesn't fulfill the role you want. That said, it doesn't make the rulebook lores any less strong. Metal, Fire (Regeneration), Beast, Shadow, there are a lot of lores that are as strong or even stronger, but are more of a risk to use since if you get one of the more filler spells then it can ruin your magic.

Dark magic is your safe consistent magic.

Rulebook lores is your specialty, stronger, but less consistent magic

Edit: Quick note, unless I am mistaken, the 'Level 0' spell isn't actually part of the dark magic lore. Its a loreless spell and can be used with any lore the sorceress selects.

EvC
19-01-2009, 19:40
You are quite right Aglemar, and that alone makes it even stronger. Free spell for every wizard, access to the most powerful magic lores (Shadow and Metal both have gamewinning spells), sorted.

Draconian77
19-01-2009, 20:38
Hehe, the way you respond is funny Draconian, why are you so quick to jump to the defence whenever anyone says anything POSITIVE about the army you play? Dark Elves are good- stop getting so worked up about people complimenting its power, it's not like an a personal affront!

Chillwind: as stated, it is better than a basic 1st spell magic missile for the same cost. This is simple fact. It's not about relying on shooting, it's about giving a weak spell an ability that makes it important to stop. In fact, you have it backwards as an army that RELIES on shooting, i.e. a gunline, will mind this spell the least, as they will have plenty of other shooting to go around. As has been stated many many times, if Black Guard are giving people problems, the solution is to simply shoot them. Yet a spell that stops a unit from shooting is over-rated... boy, consistency is such a drag.

Sigh...Shooting them is not the only solution, we have been over this on this thread already. But besides that little error, surely "Can not shoot" is on par with "Flaming" and is certainly worse than spells like "Buboes".

Doombolt: yep, we agree :)

Surprising really...

WoP: WS makes little impact, true, but do you know why? Clearly you don't. The main reason that WS makes such little impact is that there is not enough variance between the differences.

Not to sound condescending, but I did mention that in my original post. "Chart" meaning the "to hit" chart.

Let me know if you still have trouble understanding the true power of this spell.

That is an extremely arrogant thing to say. Lets be honest, as a Dark Elf player I find myself never casting this spell, surely that means that something is wrong with it? Dark Elves hit alot even with inferior Ws thanks to hatred and our characters are surprisingly durable due to certain magic items and high base armour saves. This spell has little purpose, it was much better last edition simply because Chillwind was worse.

Bladewind: You make a good point about warmachine hunting. Otherwise, yes, it's not better than a 2D6 S4 magic missile, but the sniping aspect can make it a little better. Actually you'd need 4 castings to kill a WS3 T3 character, but if the spell goes off, getting rid of unit champions is very useful, as is reducing mages to 1 wound- makes miscasts even riskier.

Didn't I say at least 3 statistically? Either way its clearly a poor tool for assassination. Getting rid of unit champions is ok, but its hardly worth chucking power dice into an inferior spell to attempt such a thing. You also won't see me(Or most DE players I'd imagine) casting this in and hoping for a miscast later in the game.

Soul Stealer: yet more Dark Elf consistency. I've lost count of the number of times I've read that the solution to the Pendant is the 3D6 S1 no armour magic missile... yet all-hit S2 and no armour is poor when it's the Dark Elf doing the casting ;) It is situational, certainly. The situation being people using big units, or heavily armoured units. So, most games, in fact. The range is the true limiting factor- good thing they can buy the Focus Familiar to extend it to 18".

This is clearly your attempt at polishing a ****...
3D6 S1 hits vs pendant = High chance of 2 wounds, slight chance of death.
1 S2 hit = 33% chance of a wound. Pointless.
Large units. Hmm... Only T3 ones and lets face it, large units of T3 models are often expendable. T4 models would barely be affected.

Heavily armoured units. Against T3 knights its ok, again anything above that and damage output is minute. When something has such a small casting range and a niche target you can't really call it a good spell.

Not every DE caster can have a Familiar, don't speak like they can. You also can't ensure that the caster with the Familiar gets that specific spell.

Black Horror: thank god for that ;)

...

Agree on Power of Darkness. Still looking to see if anyone is going to admit to miscasting due to their own Ring of Hotek though :D

Nope, haven't tried that either. Then again I only ever take a scroll caddy if I include the Ring at all.

The conclusion is, that the Dark Elf Lore is simply better than most rulebook lores. I can't say by how much, and I won't say it's better than Lore of the Vampires or some other army book lores... but it's damn powerful. Which is probably how it should be, no? Dark Elves are masters of evil magic, so it should be powerful. Not a complaint!

Eh, I think Black Horror and Chillwind are good. I think Doombolt is pretty good. I find Bladewind, Soul Stealer and Word of Pain to be too specific for my liking. I think the "Power of Darkness" is a lazy attempt to sell DE as the masters of Dark sorcery.

Bump in the night.

deggaroth
19-01-2009, 21:36
Reading through many people's concerns about the new DE armybook was rather helpful, since it gave me the chance to consider the type of lists that I have been fielding in friendly games. I found that generally attempt to design my army lists, so that my given opponent can competitively fight against it. There is, however, one exception. Essentially, I field an uber cheesey DE list against a couple friends who used to field uber cheesey lists against me, when I still had 6th ed DE.(thorek ironbow, RAF, etc etc) As you all may know, 6th ed DE really had very limited ways of dealing with Thorek or the RAF, but yet they were still fielded against me and other DE players in friendly games, so I had to exact my vengeance when 7th ed DE took the stage. :evilgrin:

I guess the reason I gave that long winded explanation comes from the fact that I wanted to pose a question to the people that are upset about the DE book. Are you upset because the DE have two detabably overly powerful things that you haven't figured out how to deal with(hydra and pendant) or are you upset because your formerly cheesey 'unbeatable' army no longer works? Though I would not presume to know which category the whiners of warseer are in, I have found that most of the whiners in my gaming group happen to be in the latter category of my previously stated question.

W0lf
19-01-2009, 22:13
The DE list isnt abusive at all really.
The biggest problem is that its what the old list should have been.
So we DE players got used to the old terrible list and got good with it.

Oh please. compare it to a multitiude of lists and say it isnt abusive. It really is.

Stop with the 'our old list was unplayably bad' (i agree) so this one is just 'fine'. The old list is history and funny enough dosnt affect the balance of this one.

Your now trying to seriously say that Dark elf generals are just better players? Because thats also ridiculous. Many Druchii players pay other lists aswell and there are a plethora of new players; thanks to the new playable list (myself included).

I swear half the dark elf players on this site are deluded. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Oh and to the above poster i am in no way upset about the new book, infact i like it a lot. I always wanted to play Dark elves but didnt like the 6th edition book. I infact love my dark elves as probably my fav army, despite being known for playing chaos. That dosnt mean i dont recognise they are a tad too good.

EDIT 2:

are you upset because your formerly cheesey 'unbeatable' army no longer works?

Actually i never played vs the 6th edition list as my group all deemed it too weak. My current record vs the new Dark elves is about 50/50 whilst my own list is currently unbeaten. Does that ruin your theory?

deggaroth
19-01-2009, 22:38
Oh please. compare it to a multitiude of lists and say it isnt abusive. It really is.

Stop with the 'our old list was unplayably bad' (i agree) so this one is just 'fine'. The old list is history and funny enough dosnt affect the balance of this one.

Your now trying to seriously say that Dark elf generals are just better players? Because thats also ridiculous. Many Druchii players pay other lists aswell and there are a plethora of new players; thanks to the new playable list (myself included).

I swear half the dark elf players on this site are deluded. :rolleyes:


You're taking it a bit out of context. The theory was that if you are forced to play with a subpar army against good armies, you MAY become a better general, due to the fact that you have to use superior tactics to win. For example, I expect that SOME O&G players may become very good in 8th ed, because they will have to go through the painful process of fighting with a subpar army.




EDIT: Oh and to the above poster i am in no way upset about the new book, infact i like it a lot. I always wanted to play Dark elves but didnt like the 6th edition book. I infact love my dark elves as probably my fav army, despite being known for playing chaos. That dosnt mean i dont recognise they are a tad too good.

EDIT 2:


Actually i never played vs the 6th edition list as my group all deemed it too weak. My current record vs the new Dark elves is about 50/50 whilst my own list is currently unbeaten. Does that ruin your theory


Once again you misunderstood the post. The comment was directed to those on the forum who say the dark elves are impossible to win against. It was not directed to those who apparently can fight on par with the "cheesy" DE, and still find the need to whine about their "cheesiness". ;)

W0lf
19-01-2009, 22:41
Im not whining about them being broken.

theres your diffrence. Im merely siding with the people who say they are because i agree.

deggaroth
19-01-2009, 22:50
Im not whining about them being broken.

theres your diffrence. Im merely siding with the people who say they are because i agree.

Point taken. You stated in your previous post that the list is abusive compared to multitudes of other lists. Could you state some of these lists? I have been always under the impression that every armies 'cheesiest list' could fight against the dark elves 'cheesy' list, but I could be wrong, since I am not an expert when it comes to every army. The two exceptions that I can think of are O&G and BOC, but I personally would not use O&G and BOC to prove that dark elves are abusive, since both O&G and BOC will have problems against most armies.