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Failguard
13-01-2009, 12:36
As i've noticed on some army lists here on Warseer people are equiping thier Sorc's with enchanted shields, and my question is: Is this legal? I brought this up at my local gaming club and the people was a 100% sure that in order to buy a enchanted shield the model in question has to be able to buy regular shield. If you look at the "USING CHAOS MAGIC" section they describe Sorc as wizards who are able to use chaos armor and magical shields, but that text is, as I interpret it, not a rule but just a genaral description. Can anyone shed some light on the subject?

Atrahasis
13-01-2009, 12:38
Discussed at great length.

I think that the intent is that they can, but have removed the enchanted shield from my sorcerer until it is confirmed.

nosferatu1001
13-01-2009, 13:40
Agreed with Atrahasis - while it has been discussed at great length, there is no definitive agreement.

The text allows you to use the shields, but not buy them. So you have RAI argument -of course you can buy them vs RAW - you cannot buy them.

the safest route is to therefore not buy one for the moment, as you are taking the strictest reading that gives least benefit.

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 14:18
If there's one FAQ out, can another one be far behind?

Shamfrit
13-01-2009, 14:23
To play advocate, the sentence covering shield usage is under the rules section of the Sorceror's entry, not under the flavour text, but you're going to run into people that won't agree all the time, so play safe unless you're willing to discuss/dice off for it.

The more common concensus is that they can take the two magic shields available to them.

Bac5665
13-01-2009, 15:59
In a rules passage it says that Chaos Sorcerers can buy magic shields. How is that ambiguous? Intent is clear, and the RAW can be interpreted both ways easily. When 2 RAW interpretations are equally "correct," the one that matched RAI wins.

My Sorcerer lord will have the Enchanted Shield, you can count on that.

Condottiere
13-01-2009, 17:01
I don't think we can deny Chaos Sorcerers their ability to purchase magic shields, but it's always been an assumption that pure wizards don't carry shields.

etancross
13-01-2009, 17:07
In a rules passage it says that Chaos Sorcerers can buy magic shields. How is that ambiguous? Intent is clear, and the RAW can be interpreted both ways easily. When 2 RAW interpretations are equally "correct," the one that matched RAI wins.

My Sorcerer lord will have the Enchanted Shield, you can count on that.

100% agree

EvC
13-01-2009, 17:18
I would say yes, except for an article on the main GW site indicating that when FAQed, they're going to say no. Although that doesn't really mean anything, I'll not be putting magic shields on my Sorcerers in the meantime, but won't stop anyone from using them on theirs.

Oberon
13-01-2009, 17:21
I put the shield I would have given to my sorc lord on the base (he rides a disc, so there's plenty of space), so the sorc technically has the shield, but at the same time he doesn't->I can safely paint the model up, no matter what the FAQ will say, and the status of that shield changes accordingly (from equipment to scenery, or the other way round).
:-)

Kadrium
13-01-2009, 17:22
I would say yes, except for an article on the main GW site indicating that when FAQed, they're going to say no.

Care to link to that article?

Oberon
13-01-2009, 17:28
Care to link to that article?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=400023&pIndex=1&aId=10100004&start=2

Or:
My favourite option is the Warrior Familiar - who inflicts an automatic S5 hit on a single enemy model before blows are struck. Perfect for getting the edge over a powerful opponent, especially if you're likely to end up in a challenge against him. In terms of defence, consider decking your Chaos Sorcerer out with a suit of Magic Armour, such as the Bronze Armour of Zhrakk (oh, and despite the scurrilous advice I've given in the past, you can't equip your Sorcerers with magic shields... and apparently no amount of wishing, arguing or whining on my part will make it true).

Kadrium
13-01-2009, 17:57
That seems pretty concise.

nosferatu1001
13-01-2009, 18:08
The piece of rules text says they can use them, they just are nowhere given permission to actually buy them.

If they do rule against shields it will make some kind of sense - cf to WAR where you have to have a hand free for casting ;)

Neckutter
13-01-2009, 18:25
doesnt armybook trump BRB? in the rules section for WoC sorcerers, it says they can use magical shields. i dont know why people would be mad. its not like they are taking mundane shields. because i think mundane shields would be overpowered. think of 2+ armor save(in HtH) lvl 1 scroll caddys...

i use magical armor on my mage. armor of morrsleib, it is chaos armor. since my wizards are already using chaos armor, and dont have the access to mundane armor, anyone who says i couldnt get a new set of chaos armor would be laughed at.

and in the past you WERE able to equip your tzeentch casters with magical shields.

nosferatu1001
13-01-2009, 19:06
They have access to Mundane armour, as they are already wearing it! so you can equip them with any magic armour you want.

While Armybook > BRB, the BRB only states they may use it does not state they may buy therefore they cannot buy it. If they came with it they could use it.

Neckutter
13-01-2009, 19:25
i dont agree with the second point you made nos. it doesnt make sense that the book says that sorcerers use magic shields, but only one mage in the book has a shield.

High Loremaster
13-01-2009, 19:31
I'm pretty sure that army book rules trump the BRB, just as army book FAQs and erratas trump general FAQs and erratas.

It's crap like this that makes me more and more unhappy with 7th edition. More and more contradictions and oversights. Sorcs can take magic shields, but not regular shields? Uhh, ok? Silver Helms are a special heavy Cavalry unit... but they can't take magic banners? What? What's the deal with Shadow Warriors? Are they range? Are they melee? Does anyone care?

Sorry, ranting and getting off topic...

Neckutter
13-01-2009, 19:48
yeah, shadow warriors. a bunch of suck and fail imo. besides march blocking and killing one empire spearmen a turn, they dont do much. BUT just be happy you have infiltrators who can somewhat affect the opponent's army. WOC have nothing like this, and it is a huge tactical flaw.

nosferatu1001
14-01-2009, 11:47
i dont agree with the second point you made nos. it doesnt make sense that the book says that sorcerers use magic shields, but only one mage in the book has a shield.

How do you not agree with it? The book states use - and as "use" /= "buy" it does not give you permission to buy the shield. You may not like the rule as it is currently written, however it is very clear as to what it allows.

It may not make a lot of sense, however currently those are the rules - you have to show you can buy magical shields through coming equipped with a mundane one or having access in the sorcerors items list, or that you have permission to buy magical shields through an explicit rule. Currently, unlike the Vampires, there is no explicit rule that allows this. The only rule is that, if you have a shield, you may use it. Thats it..

RAI - I'm generally a very lenient player so would allow people to use either shield (less points for puppet or other items :D) if they were to play me in a friendly OR tournament game, unless the tournament specified otherwise. However on a rule forum I think it is good to get the actual rule clear before debating GAP; currently it is very certain IMO that you may not buy a shield, but if you come equipped with one you may use it.

Condottiere
14-01-2009, 12:01
Is there any Sorcerer that comes pre-equipped with a shield?

nosferatu1001
14-01-2009, 18:57
Archaon, at a guess....don;t have WoC book on me.

Certainly Billitch doesn't, think he jsut has chaos armour.

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 19:32
He doesn't have a shield due to running amock with two very heavy looking swords!

W0lf
14-01-2009, 19:49
No sorcerer comes with a shield.

I still think they can take them.

Havock
14-01-2009, 19:50
So... Vampires can't take the shield either unless they take whatever bllodline gift allows them mundane armour & shield?

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 19:57
Is there not something in the Army Book that allows them to take magic armour?

Havock
14-01-2009, 19:59
Yes.
Does that answer the topic? :p

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 20:01
I meant Vampires :p

I know Chaos Sorcerors can take the two magic shields lol.

Havock
14-01-2009, 20:08
I meant it like this:
Can vampires take them?
-Yes, it's in their book.
Can Chaos Sorcerers take them?
.... :p

nosferatu1001
14-01-2009, 20:19
Possibly...who knows what a FAQ will say

if anything...

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 20:24
It doesn't need to, read pg. 106, sub heading Using Chaos Magic, second paragraph.

Havock
14-01-2009, 22:24
Besides, following that train of thoughts nobody would be able to buy any magic armour because they wouldn't be able to BUY armor.
The rulebook wording is as follows:

"A model that is not allowed to carry normal shields cannot be given magical shields (Unless differently specified in the army book)."

Neckutter
15-01-2009, 10:29
yes, only archaon comes with a shield. he is also a lvl 2 sorcerer.
and the idea that sorcerers can use shields, but not buy them is very silly.

plus havoc just closed the door on that argument with some RAWjutsu