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Dokushin
14-01-2009, 13:24
Dwarf friend of mine brought up a good one: When shooting a bolt thrower, if there are 5/more files that can be hit, it just hits a normal rank-and-file model. What do you do if it's a Skaven unit with a Lead From Behind hero in the last rank? How do you determine if the bolt thrower hit the file with the character?

Condottiere
14-01-2009, 13:42
Nominate a point of impact in front of the unit and draw line from the bolt thrower to the nominated point and extend to the end of the unit. If the line passes through the character's base and it's legally possibly for the bolt to penetrate that far, he's affected.

Braad
14-01-2009, 13:57
If the unit exists of more than 5 models, it won't hit any character, also not one in the last rank.

Page 90 of the BRB: "only if a rank is made entirely of characters, or if the total rank&file models in the units is less then five, it will be necessarily to randomize". So, in any other situation, characters are not hit. There is no reason to assume that it can hit that character.

Only exception I can see, might be if the last rank exists only of that single character (so: the whole rank only exists of characters).

Makaber
14-01-2009, 14:01
So let's say the bolt thrower shoots at a unit of 5 clanrats in the first rank, 5 clanrats in the second rank, and a lone hero in the third rank. I'd say if the bolt penetrates the first two, and wounds the character, he gets a "Look Out Sir!" roll, and if he fails, he's hit.

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 14:11
If the unit exists of more than 5 models, it won't hit any character, also not one in the last rank.

Page 90 of the BRB: "only if a rank is made entirely of characters, or if the total rank&file models in the units is less then five, it will be necessarily to randomize". So, in any other situation, characters are not hit. There is no reason to assume that it can hit that character.

Only exception I can see, might be if the last rank exists only of that single character (so: the whole rank only exists of characters).

Quote for win, as far as I can tell.

Nuada
14-01-2009, 14:22
So let's say the bolt thrower shoots at a unit of 5 clanrats in the first rank, 5 clanrats in the second rank, and a lone hero in the third rank. I'd say if the bolt penetrates the first two, and wounds the character, he gets a "Look Out Sir!" roll, and if he fails, he's hit.

You can't use "Look out Sir!" against bolt throwers if you have one character in the rank

It's as Braad says, if you have a whole rank of characters you then randomize it, for example if you have a unit of troll slayers and the entire front rank is giant slayers. Or if fewer than 5 models. That's the only way you can hit a character

Dokushin
14-01-2009, 14:47
I'm following the lot of you but I'm trying to address his question specifically: it never says that the bolt can't hit a character, it just says that if there are 5 or more targets then it is assumed to hit a rank-and-file trooper, which it then penetrates. How do you know if it hits the rank-and-file trooper that a skaven hero is behind, and therefore has a chance to wound?

JonnyTHM
14-01-2009, 14:53
If there are more than 5 R&F models in the unit:
It only hits the character if he is the only one in the rank... period.

The bolt thrower doesn't need to proceed in an exact 'line'

So, in a large point skaven battle you could have:
in a unit of 15 remaining clan rats, 4 heroes and a R&F guy. And then in the back rank behind that R&F guy is another hero.

The bolt would hit and would never hit any of the heroes. EVER.

Dokushin
14-01-2009, 15:00
I understand that, and I know it's common consensus, and it's what I had assumed as well, but just for the sake of exactness, where does the BRB back that up? Even if it's somewhere obvious; I'm LM myself and bolt thrower rules don't come up too much *grin*

Borthcollective
14-01-2009, 16:17
Page 90 of the BRB has the rules for that. Left column, under firing a bolt thrower.

Condottiere
14-01-2009, 16:28
That's really a pity, I liked my solution. Back to cannon sniping.

Dokushin
14-01-2009, 16:48
Normally I don't post from memory without the rulebook to back me up, but I won't be able to get at mine for a couple of days. Don't the rules on that page specify that the bolt thrower hits a rank-and-file model if there are 5 or more targets? That's not in question; I'm saying that it's possible for a skaven character to be at the rear end of one of those ranks that are headed by a rank-and-file model. It doesn't say in the Bolt Thrower section that it cannot kill a charater, only that it first hits a rank-and-file if there are 5/more targets.

Please, read the section with this question in mind. Sometime tomorrow I might be able to quote the part I have concerns about. Not trying to argue, here, just looking for explicit clarification. *shrug*

Borthcollective
14-01-2009, 17:23
Normally I don't post from memory without the rulebook to back me up, but I won't be able to get at mine for a couple of days. Don't the rules on that page specify that the bolt thrower hits a rank-and-file model if there are 5 or more targets? That's not in question; I'm saying that it's possible for a skaven character to be at the rear end of one of those ranks that are headed by a rank-and-file model. It doesn't say in the Bolt Thrower section that it cannot kill a charater, only that it first hits a rank-and-file if there are 5/more targets.

Please, read the section with this question in mind. Sometime tomorrow I might be able to quote the part I have concerns about. Not trying to argue, here, just looking for explicit clarification. *shrug*

"If the rank hit by the bolt is made entirely of characters(including champions) of if the total of rank-and-file models is less than five, it will be necessary to randomise which model in the rank is hit."

Are you meeting any of these criteria? You don't choose what rank you shoot thru, you just shoot the unit so I don't see where the argument is. The only problem that could come up would be if he was the only model in that rank and then I think you are really grasping at straws.

This line of reasoning was already quoted though so until you actually present a counter argument then I guess you won't accept this post either.

Dokushin
14-01-2009, 17:34
I'm trying, lol. I'm with you that it says not to randomize when >5, and that's kind of the problem. Example:


B

00C000
000000
000000
000000
0000H0

123456

B = Bolt Thrower
C = Champion
H = Skaven Hero, Lead From Behind

Bolt thrower shoots.

Now the BRB says, we don't randomize to hit and that it hits a rank and file model. That rules out 3. And, again, it doesn't say to randomize, but as per the rules in the rulebook, 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 are all valid impact points. If it hits 5, then the bolt will have a chance to wound the hero. It doesn't say if it does, it doesn't say if it doesn't, and it doesn't say to randomize. That's my confusion. It can be assumed it doesn't hit the hero, but it would just be that, an assumption, as there's nothing saying it can't. RAI is pretty clear, but I would really like to see RAW somewhere on this, either way, whatever. Lol.

(I do, btw, appreciate the effort so far going here, and I'm not trying to come across as stubborn, lol, I'm just confused on this point and hoping it's addressed somewhere.)

Borthcollective
14-01-2009, 17:51
It also says shots from behind the unit don't hit characters either. I don't know a good answer.

Necromancy Black
14-01-2009, 22:23
Simple game wide answer, characters in units fo mroe tehn 5 models are practicully immune to any damage unless specificly says they can be targeted.

The last point you brings up shows a clear point, in that characters can not be hit if shot from behind. Even if you have a front rank of nothing but.

I say, every rank is hit, but the character is not hit, instead wound another rat.

Yes, this goes against logic, but the rules in this game are not based on such things, are they?

Basically, to sum it up:

- The rules says characters in the front rank are never hit if there is 5 or more rank and file models, and never hit in the rear if the unit is shot from behind.
- The skaven have comepletly unique rules with their characters, so these rules have obviously not been written with them in mind
- Do the Skaven rules not make the character count all the benifits as though he was in the front rank?

Really good question, without much of an answer. I still say no though, and that a regular rat it hit instead. (I like to keep the 5+ models, your safe, rule for all instances)

TheDarkDaff
15-01-2009, 00:22
The rules for bolt throwers are quite simple. If there are less than 5 rank and file models you must randomise the hit. If a rank (or file for a flank shot) is entirely made of characters then randomise which character is hit (regardless of how many Rank and File models are in the unit).

If you stick your Chaos Lord on the end of a Unit of Knights he will take the full impact of a bolt shot into that flank. It doen't make a difference how many knights are in the unit. But if that unit has a single model in a second rank then it is that model that gets hit (and your Lord is safe). You can also snipe out Champions in this manner.

If you Skaven Character is a rear rank by himself then he would have to take the first hit from a bolt thrower (or last if it penetrates through that far). But if he has a single other model in the same rank the Character is always safe.

Braad
15-01-2009, 07:23
The rules don't specify how to hit the character, because they already specify you don't hit him. More then 5 r&f? You don't hit. That's the rule we got. What more is there to find? If there is no rule, you can't do it.

There is no rule that units can't teleport to any specific spot on the field. But do we need one saying we can't? No, because its obvious. Same situation here. If it's not in the rules, its not allowed. If the rules would have said: "if there is a character in the last rank, nominate a point of impact to get a chance of hitting him..." then you could have done that.

With bows you don't specify the exact target, never, and neither you do with bolt throwers. You don't pick a point of impact, you just shoot the unit. So there is no way of doing that in this situation to make the bolt hit the character.
To make the process of shooting not overcomplicated, and to prevent people from sniping characters in a totally unbelievable way (really, no bolt thrower crew far off can make out that single boss in that whole bunch of people), there is no rule for hitting a character somewhere in a back rank that no-one can see. Remember it is still just a game that needs some flow, and we are not computers that can't precisely calculate everything that needs to happen, so they can't add 'do-don't' rules for any possible situation.

TheDarkDaff
15-01-2009, 09:49
@ Braad - Please read the Bolt Thrower rules


If the rank hit by the bolt is entirely made of characters (including champions) or if the total of rank-and-file models in the unit is less than 5, it will be nessessary to randomise which model in the rank is hit.
Combine that with the paragraph above telling us that if the bolt thrower shoots the the Front rank if firing from the front arc, tthe last rank if firing from the rear and that if it is in the flank it counts the files as ranks instead and you get told exactly how you can hit characters in a unit with more than 5 rank-and-file models. If they are the only option to hit in that rank then you must hit them (or randomise who gets hit in the case there are multiple characters).

foehammer888
15-01-2009, 10:51
and to prevent people from sniping characters in a totally unbelievable way (really, no bolt thrower crew far off can make out that single boss in that whole bunch of people), Careful with that explanation, because cannon crews apparently can. Its a function of the bolt thrower rules and is, in no way, a reflection on the capabilities of the crew.

Also, nothing about this discussion says the bolt thrower and crew is "far off". They could be 2in away from the enemy unit and everything being discussed here is still valid.

Braad
15-01-2009, 12:35
Well, this discussion is about the bolt thrower, not about the believability of cannons.
Also, its totally unbelievable that, if a cannon is fired, a soldier next to you sees the path of the cannonball is straight at you, gets to warn you, and you then jump out of the way. But on one hand, cannon rules allow sniping so the 'look out sir'-roll is needed to mitigate this effect. So if you ask me, its rather the cannon that is weird, not the bolt thrower.

About the second bit... It would be a bit complicated if you had different rules for different ranges, other then just a modifier, wouldn't it...

mistermaster
15-01-2009, 12:38
I know itīs not on topic, but is related to.

What about a unit of 5 cavalry with a hero in a flank. If that unit is shot by a bolthrower by that flank?

Is the character is being hit and receives the lookout sir rule or he doesnīt need it at all?

How is it resolved?

Braad
15-01-2009, 12:42
Only template weapons and cannons receive a look out sir roll IIRC, not shots from bolt throwers, bows, whatever.
In this case, yes, the character is hit. If there are only characters in a rank (or file when shot from the side) then the hit is randomized amongst the characters. In this case, just the one character will be hit first.

TheDarkDaff
15-01-2009, 19:42
If you have a situation where you have a character then your champion then the rest of the single rank Cav unit shot in that flank then the bolt will initially hit the character (as he is the only models in that "rank" (you treat the file as a rank), then if if kills the character you hit the Champion nextand if you kill him you then move on to normal Cav models.

FranticDaemon
15-01-2009, 20:13
If I get the wording right when you fire BT at ranked unit with more than 5 RnF models (otherwise normal shooting rules aply) you don't hit models with - you hit ranks. And unless the hit rank made from characters only the RnF model is hit.

TheDarkDaff
15-01-2009, 20:35
@FranticDaemon - You have it exactly right. The only clarification i would add is you hit the rank (or File if in a flank) that the shooting originates from.

Braad
16-01-2009, 09:48
Indeed. And if you have only one rank, with a character in the flank, than that character is the only one in that file that can be hit by a flank-shot (since files count as ranks in case of a flanking shot) meaning dead-meat character.

Condottiere
16-01-2009, 10:08
Moral: never let the opponent have a flank shot of your heavy cavalry.

Cambion Daystar
16-01-2009, 11:03
Moral: never let the opponent have a flank shot of your heavy cavalry.
.....
Amen!

Clegane
20-01-2009, 21:41
I have a semi-related question that I can't seem to find a specific rule for.

How do you handle firing a bolt thrower at a war machine whose crew includes a character? The crew consists of two crewmen and a character, none of whom are ranked up, but rather standing scattered about the war machine. If the firer of the bolt thrower points it at the character himself and makes his to-hit roll, is the shot randomized between the machine and crew, as per war machine rules? Or is it randomized between the character and two crewmen, because they aren't properly ranked up and there's less than five of them? Or is the character just out of luck altogether because the bolt was aimed specifically at him?

alextroy
21-01-2009, 00:29
The same way you do for any shooting attacks against a war machine with attached characters. First randomize between crew and machine. For hit that go to the crew distribute hits amongst the crew as evenly as possible, randomize to see who gets hit if you have an uneven amount hits to distribute to the crew.

In your example, roll to see if they hit the machine or crew. If crew, then randomize as to determine if it is the crew or character that takes the hit. As a unit with no ranks, only one model can be hit.

Mad Makz
21-01-2009, 07:21
Just had a thought regarding this, just confirming what happens in THIS situation.

B

CCCCC
CCCCC
CCCCC
H

Where there is a unit of clanrats (C) fired at with a single hero leading from the rear and the remaining clanrats in that rear rank have been killed off.

Bolt thrower fires, and assuming it goes through the first three ranks, the character is then hit?
(meanwhile if there was a solitary clanrat next to him, he would never be hit)

Does that sound about right as per rules.

WLBjork
21-01-2009, 07:43
That is spot on Mad Makz.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-01-2009, 09:15
Yup, in that situation the Bolt Thrower would hit the character as he is the only model in that rank. The bolt thrower rules are really a lot simpler than they usually get credit for as long as you remember they work nothing at all like a cannon (or real world physics).

Condottiere
21-01-2009, 09:30
Especially when you consider that in a area tightly packed with people, you're bound to hit something.