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Godswildcard
14-01-2009, 14:10
Ok, so in choosing my Lord level character for my warriors of chaos, I am faced with the choice of a level 4 Sorceror Lord or a Demon Prince level 4 wizard. I'm going to post some known pros/cons to both, and the rest of you guys can chime in.

Sorc. Lord
Pros:
Can be given Disc of Tzeentch to fly
Chaos Armor (sv. 4+, 3+ w/ disc)
Can take magic items (100 pts)
Can take gifts (50 pts)
Points cost is relatively low

Cons:
Kind of weak in close combat compared to other heroes/lords
MUST challenge if engaged in close combat
Strength 4

Demon Prince
Pros:
Flies
5+ Invuln. save (4+ with mark of tzeentch)
Can take gifts (100 pts)
Eats people in close combat
causes fear (or terror...or something like that)
can be a level 4 wizard

Cons:
Cost is high w/ mark, gifts, and wizard levels
Cannot take magic items
Has no armor


And that is what I have so far. Money wise, both of these guys are the same price. I'm just trying to figure out where I want to take my army. What say the masses?

W0lf
14-01-2009, 14:16
Disc lord
MoT, Enchanted shield, eye, puppet, scroll

job done.

The daemon prince dosnt 'eat things' in combat. he only has 5 s5

Dark_Mage99
14-01-2009, 14:20
Everyone hates the Daemon Prince - but I love it. The only trouble is it becomes very expensive when maxed out, and I think it needs to be maxed out to offer more than the other lord choices.

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 14:25
Daemon Prince
Mark of Tzeentch
Lvl.3 (If Minimalist, Lvl.4 if not.)
Diabolic Splendour, Bloodcurdling Roar, Fury of the Blood God

---

Flying, -1ld causing terror bomb, war machine hunting, Gateway Spamming Magic Missile throwing hellion :D

Lord Khabal
14-01-2009, 14:33
Sorcerer Lord all the way! check this out and see for yourself:
SLord Tzeentch: somight, geye, ench shield, spell familiar, book secrets, roar, disc
we have: a lvl 4 wiz with 6 spells, 3S5 attacks, 1+AS, 3+WS vs shoot, 6+WS in h2h. Better wizard, tougher and cheaper. Frankly I see no reason to take the DP...

Shamfrit
14-01-2009, 14:45
Apart from the 4+ ward, better toughness, strength, attack stat, initiative, Flying, Terror/Fear, 3+ vs Magic and MR, Stubborn, Knight Killing Missile attack, magic ability, -1ld to terror, panic and fear checks? What's that Skippy? For only 150 more?

Nooo, not worth taking at all.

Putty
14-01-2009, 15:01
i prefer the lvl 4 tzeentch lord on disk. its more customisable and is able to have a +1 armor save (currently debated but still a + 3 at least), 4 + missile ward save and a bunch of other stuff.

and he is a lot cheaper too, in an army that constantly have problems with points and manpower.

and i don't intend to have my sorcerers get into combat, so i prefer that they zip around and keep away from possible combat situations.

which is why nurgle sorcerers are quite useful... because they can cast offensive spells into units that are in combat, something other marked sorcerers, can't usually do all the time.

Mullitron
14-01-2009, 22:04
I like the prince, if anything just for the cool factor and model of be'lakor. I was looking into a similar choice between sorc lord or prince i quickly came up with:

Daemon prince
Mark of tzeentch
level 4 wizard
tendrils of tzeentch
diabolic splendour
570

A strong caster with good melee abilities and supported by a bsb with doom totem to stack with the diabolic splendor. Tho does mean by adding a scroll caddy your looking at a big chunk or your list being spent on characters.

W0lf
14-01-2009, 23:41
Id like the try a prince but i cant get around the fact he cost the same as a lvl 2 and a lvl 4.

Plus i wouldnt leave homewithout puppet so it leaves me scroll-less unless i want yet another wizard (were talking like 50% of pts now).

Havock
15-01-2009, 00:33
I like the prince, if anything just for the cool factor and model of be'lakor. I was looking into a similar choice between sorc lord or prince i quickly came up with:

Daemon prince
Mark of tzeentch
level 4 wizard
tendrils of tzeentch
diabolic splendour
570

A strong caster with good melee abilities and supported by a bsb with doom totem to stack with the diabolic splendor. Tho does mean by adding a scroll caddy your looking at a big chunk or your list being spent on characters.

Add 200 points and you have a pimped out sorcerer lord. On a dragon.

Jericho
15-01-2009, 02:24
And when you consider that the Dragon by itself is a better fighter than that Demon Prince, it's pretty easy to say which one is going to be more effective...

Oh and the Prince is US3, which makes him the suck for the points.

Lord Khabal
15-01-2009, 09:14
Mage on dragon is VERY expensive. I think its only worth it in huge battles, 3000+... But a good option though...

Shamfrit
15-01-2009, 09:20
Why does US3 make him suck?

He's immune to killing blow, and he's not a large target so can hide behind other units?

bork da basher
15-01-2009, 09:28
sorcerer lord, MoT, disc, book of secrets (with death magic), power familiar, golden eye of tzeentch, conjoined homunculus

lord, can fly, has 6PD, extra spell from lore of death, 3+ ward vs ranged attacks and conjoined homunculus which can mean the differance between casting gateway or not.

supported with 3 lvl 2 sorcerers in my 2250pts list and they just machine gun units down with flickering fire.

Avian
15-01-2009, 09:38
To me, one of the main points in taking a Sorcerer Lord is the ability to take 100 pts of magic items (and being able to take the Tongue without giving away half VPs). The Daemon Prince is limited to the much less impressive Chaos Gifts.

The Red Scourge
15-01-2009, 10:01
I'm trying this one out this weekend.

Daemon Prince
Mark of Tzeentch
Lvl.4
Tendrils of Tzeentch, Homonculous, Fury of the Blood God.

---

Flying magic power house, with MR2, T5, a 4+ ward (3+ vs. magic) and the ability to re-roll power and dispel dies.

I'm not highly concerned with the lack of an armor save, as he shouldn't end up in CC, and his Flying, T5 and 4+ save should take care of most low-level shooting, while artillery would deny him an armor save anyway. This leaves enemy mages as potential threats and MR2 combined with a 3+ ward will quickly discourage those.

...would like a little more Ld though. Guess I'll just have to blast a monster to get that :evilgrin:

Backup will be another tzeentch sorcerer on disc, an unmarked sorcerer (to allow for a little custom magic), and a Khorne jugger BSB add horsemen, knights and lots of dogs to the mix, and I'll hope for world domination ;)

W0lf
15-01-2009, 10:28
Is a sorc lord on a Dragon not a better deal then a daemon prince though?

Shamfrit
15-01-2009, 10:56
Sorceror Lord with no upgrades + Dragon = 595 points, taking up a Lord and a Hero slot.

Fully upgraded Lvl.4 Prince, 500-550.

Better, maybe, but you're not really giving yourself much of an army.

Godswildcard
15-01-2009, 14:51
Thanks for all of the feedback guys!

I'm probably going to end up going with a Demon Prince for right now. I'll be posting my list in the army lists section, so be sure to let me know what you think!

Jericho
15-01-2009, 17:55
US3 on the Prince limits his usefulness as a combat unit since he can't get flank/rear bonuses nor break rank bonus. A Dragon can do all this, and is immune to KB as well. For 15 points, the guy riding the Dragon can be immune to KB as well.

W0lf
15-01-2009, 19:31
Better, maybe, but you're not really giving yourself much of an army.

This is true for most lists with a Dragon lol.

A fully tooled daemon prince isnt that great anyway... id definatly say Dragon is better. Breath weapons > any daemonic gifts. Then your flat out better in combat and 'can' buy magic items.

Jericho
15-01-2009, 19:39
Yeah it's a bit more pricey but it's definitely worth the cost. The Gifts are too expensive, and you're right W0lf a DP won't have access to a shooting phase like 2 breath weapons and Roar/Death's Head. The Dragon Lord/Sorc can potentially kick ass in all 4 phases: he's fast, can be as good if not better in magic, can do a lot of shooting damage if within 12", and is better in combat.

Still very expensive, but very versatile as well.

Dark_Mage99
15-01-2009, 19:41
The best thing that the Daemon Prince offers (for me, anyway) is the re-roll casting and dispelling. That means you can confidently throw 5 dice at Gateway without fear of miscasting, and that is a huge, huge thing that nothing else in the army can offer.

W0lf
15-01-2009, 19:58
I do that with my lvl 4 anyway ^^.

The miscast table reallyy isnt that bad and when combined with puppet its fairly laughable.

Havock
15-01-2009, 23:48
Damn right, the DP's biggest weakness is that it's actually quite vulnerable -even with MoT-, I believe there are several threads which include several posts which go over several options that would make the DP more viable.
It
-should come with chaos armor by default
- have a 4+ wardsave & beter overall statistics, magical attacks and the option to take magical weapons; even if you stick to the common ones it can still boost him.

offtopic: Why is the flaming sword of doom so bloody expensive? Really, the old rending sword was 35 pts or so, this one is twice that and adds flaming and an additional wound dealt.

W0lf
15-01-2009, 23:50
Fix Daemon prince;

Chaos armour as standard.
May spend 50pts on a magic weapon.

Job done.

Godswildcard
03-02-2009, 15:49
Sorry to revive this thread, but I'm running into a problem when equipping my sorc. lord
(which I ended up going with btw)

The way I see it, I can do this one of two ways:

Sorc. Lord, Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch, and...

Caster-hater
Take the black tongue, infernal puppet, and Tendrils of Tzeentch. This combo is a NIGHTMARE for enemy casters. Vey bad things could happen.

Magic Power
Take Conjoined Humunculous, Book of Secrets, Spell Familiar, Golden eye of Tzeentch and enchanted shield. Gives me a 1+ armor save, a 3+ ward save against shooting, 6 spells (I think), and +1 PD with some insurance against misscasts.

Thoughts?


Edit: Figured out the points limit for gifts.

andyy
03-02-2009, 16:11
i m considering a DP, lvl4 tzeentch, tendrils and word of agony..
so he can assassin some character in CC if he has to..

Soul of Iron
03-02-2009, 18:12
That SL on a dragon w/ roar sounds....wonderful!!!!!

Neckutter
03-02-2009, 19:40
WoC you always take a Tz Sorc lord, or a Tz lvl 4 wizard daemon prince. chaod lords are trash.

the reason DPs arent as good anymore in combat is that "blades of ether" daemonic gift is gone. it gave your HtH attacks ignore armor saves.

Skyth
04-02-2009, 14:00
If you want a Tzeentch lord...I'd say go with-

Sorc lord on disk, Rending sword, bronze armor, puppet, golden eye, Roar, and the magic missile staff.

Rending sword isn't close combat attacks only, so you are re-rolling failed to-wounds on the roar and all your spells. With disk and eye, you are pretty resilient.

Havock
04-02-2009, 14:12
Holy crap, that I didn't see that.
Awesome. I'll do that! :D

Makaber
04-02-2009, 14:15
Rending sword isn't close combat attacks only, so you are re-rolling failed to-wounds on the roar and all your spells. With disk and eye, you are pretty resilient.

Groan. Urgh. You're right. :cries: How much are they getting payed to write these books, anyway?

Havock
04-02-2009, 14:17
Bananas, monkeys dig 'em.

Oberon
04-02-2009, 15:24
Same kind of "they know what we mean, no need to write it down clearly"-wishful thinking like the father of blades then. On paper they sound fun, but a bit absurd, I wouldn't dare to claim either of these weaponry-related easter eggs in a real game.

Angelust
18-02-2009, 19:29
Hm, I think I might dare to use these...hahaha

LanceSaba
18-02-2009, 23:08
I personaly think that no single model is harder to kill than a DP

for 505 points you can have a DP with mantle of chaos, fury of the blood god, mark of nurgle, and is a lvl 2 wizard which make him able to cast all the spells in the lore of nurgle

its also the best spell caster (just because that one upgrade)

for 555 points the PD is a lvl 4 flying tzeentch caster with tendrils and conjoined homunculus, can one say infernal gateway (6 power dice?, re-roll miscast, + D3 to casting, +1 to casting)

decker_cky
19-02-2009, 01:24
Same kind of "they know what we mean, no need to write it down clearly"-wishful thinking like the father of blades then. On paper they sound fun, but a bit absurd, I wouldn't dare to claim either of these weaponry-related easter eggs in a real game.

The father of blades got ruled by GW as being the right way of playing it though. It kind of ceases to be an easter egg at that point.

Lafkak
19-02-2009, 04:34
Yeah, I thought that ruling was rather silly. I'm incredibly surprised they didn't do a similar one for the Rending Sword though, as a lot of people would be dying to know if it works RAW or RAI. Until we find out, I'm going to play it RAI and not put it on any of my Sorcerers because they aren't trying to reroll to wound rolls in CC :)

Djekar
19-02-2009, 05:57
I was actually thinking that the FAQ on the Father of Blades is indicative of the way they want the Rending Sword to work. Then I looked over the FAQ again, and noticed that Starcrusher doesn't give Kholek's lightening D3 wounds, and that is indicative of the other interpretation of the Rending Sword. So now I'm just confused again.

~Ham

The Red Scourge
19-02-2009, 09:15
Tendrils of Tzeentch and a chance to use the Belakor model is all the reasons I need for using a daemon prince. Is it a good lord choice? Probably not, but I play WoC for its brutality and the larger than life characters – and a daemon opening gates to hell and forcing wizards to miscast is does make a high elf archmage look like a level 1 D&D wizard ;)

ROCKY
19-02-2009, 10:19
Apart from the 4+ ward, better toughness, strength, attack stat, initiative, Flying, Terror/Fear, 3+ vs Magic and MR, Stubborn, Knight Killing Missile attack, magic ability, -1ld to terror, panic and fear checks? What's that Skippy? For only 150 more?

Nooo, not worth taking at all.

LMAO SOLD :D getting one today

Lord Khabal
19-02-2009, 10:28
Let me see... 3+ WSave - GEye: check! Fly - Disc: check! - Knight killing ability - Roar:check! strength: SOMight: check! - So whats left is the terror bomb (the real reason to take the DP in my opinion!) and the possibility to have 6 spells (familiar+book)and a 1+Armour save. Since Gateway is the only "Good" spell for tzeentch mages, I'll stick to my Sorcerer Lord.
So yeah, I use Roar / SOMight / Ench.Shield / SpFamiliar / Book of Secrets / GEye / Disc
Best Sorc. Lord configuration for pure caster possible!!!

Shamfrit
19-02-2009, 10:42
That would be 3 STR5 attacks at what, WS4/5? A 3+ ward save vs shooting attackings only, and a 1+ armour save.

What do you do against Bolt Throwers, armour ignoring spells, attacked or the like? He's not stubborn either, which is a tragic understatement, Stubborn LD8, not Large target and everything else into account, the Prince is a beast.

Same could be said about the Prince, but T5, an extra wound, a static 4+ ward, makes him more resilient to everything in the game, including miscasts, and most important of all, Tendrils.

Godswildcard
19-02-2009, 12:37
I'm still not sold on B. Roar's ability to kill knights. Yes, there is probably going to be a lot of hits, but I've never rolled more than (1) six to wound (which IS what you'll need). While that takes care of 1 of those pesky knights, the other 4 are probably pretty pissed about it.

Maybe if I got lucky, rolled a 12 for the # of hits and then promptly rolled 4 sixes, I would be completely in love with the gift. Until then....

Shamfrit
19-02-2009, 12:44
You should average 1-4 kills with it, 2-3 is more likely. It is great at lone character killing, and let's face it, if you kill 2 knights from a unit the unit's efficiency sky falls. Except Chaos Knights obviously, because even one can hurt :D

Lord Khabal
19-02-2009, 12:48
@ shafrit - actually bolt throwers are shooting attacks so he'll have a 3+WSave.
Listen, the DPrince does has its advantages and I agree with that (and the terror bomb is huge VS skaven / empire / orcs). I just think (and that is my opinion) that the Sorcerer Lord is more effective points wise. The Daemon prince is just too expensive... But then again there is the Belakor model...

@Godswildcard - Roar its bloody good for its points costs. It will not wipe away a unit but it will chip away and cause panic tests. Very good VS elite cavs, bad against everything else

Godswildcard
19-02-2009, 12:58
Alright ALRIGHT!!

I'll keep taking it. Maybe my luck will turn. I've also got to remember to use the darn thing...

slasher
19-02-2009, 14:23
Except Chaos Knights obviously, because even one can hurt :D

Would this be the same type of people who (with mark of Khorne) charge a grail relique and effectively drew combat - not once but twice (ok they won the 3rd round of combat and my peasents ran (curse being out numbered by a fear causer :( )?

isidril93
19-02-2009, 20:39
i officially proclaim the daemon prince as a marmite model!!!

i love it, its a cool large daemon that has apersonality, not like a GD where they are controlled(more or less) by their god