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clintv42
14-01-2009, 17:52
So I am wondering if any vets out there can give me a hand. I've tried to crack the nut that is chaos but Tomb Kings just seem to bounce off uselessly. I have used several different lists to deal with chaos but they crack my sun bleached head open every time. This is a good base cross section of what I fight when I fight chaos

2 units of knights with some combo of blessing and standards
1 unit of 20 warriors
2 units of 20+ marauders (one of them including Ulrik)
4-5 units of dogs as screens
1 unit of marauder horsemen
1 Tzeench Level 4 wizard
1 Tzeench level 2 wizard

In a screaming skull/archer based army the shots just aren't consistent enough to be reliable and even if you are fairly well off with your shots in 2 rounds the opponent will be upon you. From what I've experience thus far once the knights are in close combat with you the game is short lived. They are pulling combat res results number in the 10's to 15's. God help my poor little skeletons if his warriors ever get to me.

I have tried matching strength for strength but the only 2 things in the entire army that seem to have enough power to battle the knights "which are really at the base of the problem" are the Bone giants and the Tomb Kings. My tomb kings, however I seem to equip them, just don't do enough. They may get a kill in but after that they are ripped apart by the retaliation and combat res. If I put them with chariots or a unit that unit ends up just provides more fodder for combat res.

The bone giants need 5s to hit in combat because the knights have the blessing of nurgle which is just enough to bring my giants combat res down which destroys any hopes of doing the damage he needs to do with his unstoppable assault. If he even manages to pull the charge off.

On top of all of this the magic phase hurts quite a bit. If you know chaos then you know what tzeentch mages are capable of. I don't really have to go into it.

So that being said, does anyone have any suggestions for what I can do against the new warriors of chaos?

Godswildcard
14-01-2009, 18:47
The best anti-armor tactic for tomb kings IMHO is the army of Settra. Screen his knights with swarms, then throw killing blow Tomb Guard and Tomb Scorpions at him. His knights won't know what hit them. The Chariots absolutely EAT warriors, marauders and dogs. Chances are good the dogs are breaking after getting charged, which makes things fun if you pursue with the chariots.

I have run 3 units of 6 chariots w/ a Tomb King loaded with Dispel Scrolls and settra. Throw in 2 big blocks of Tomb Guard, a few swarms and a scorpion or two, and you are beating him all the way back to the frozen north!

Oenghus
14-01-2009, 19:17
Try running a Tomb King with the Destroyer of Eternities. Use magic to help get the charge off, and then Smite the King. He'll tear apart six nights a turn. You could even give him the cloak of dunes/destroyer combo, but that means he's reliant on his own magic to get the charge and the smiting off, which is a bit iffy. (By which I mean it'll rarely if ever work.)

Alternately, take advantage of Chaos' expensive models and low leadership by throwing the casket at them. If you can shoot holes in the screens (a couple of wounds ought to make gaps you can see through) you'll do some damage. Even if you don't, you'll get your incantations off easier. It'll also slow his magic down... a bit.

Consider, also, Tomb Guard. Killing blow might actually be useful. Also, Scorpions and Ushabti. Unfortunately, heavy armour is one of the things that TKs do the worst against.

clintv42
14-01-2009, 19:45
Thank you both for your responses.

I have thought of Settra, unfortunately "so powerful is he" that the SOB takes 2 lord choices and we have yet to play a 3k game. But that is interesting and I will give it a go when I get the opportunity.

To the second that is an interesting tactic. I'll try giving the destroyer and desert cloak. I did try the casket but his general usually around any model that can see the casket. The rest of his models tend to look away from it at the end of the move. By the time they're ready to charge they've pretty much minimized the amount of important units looking at the casket. I will try using it again however.

Godswildcard
14-01-2009, 20:01
I will also vouch for the DoE and Cloak combo. It is pretty nasty. Just be careful to not over-isolate your tomb king.

Ushabti have 3 S5 attacks a piece, so running 3 of them against some warriors would be a good idea. Chances are good you'll kill enough to not even let them have an attack back.

huitzilopochtli
14-01-2009, 20:39
3 S6 attacks i thought?

I haven't really got a lot to offer by way of advice, except that two catapults work better for me than the casket and cost about the same.

Good luck with your campaign anyway, let us know if anything works. I'd love to hear that the TK's have a way to beat the warriors.

clintv42
14-01-2009, 20:44
Thanks for the feed back Godswildcard. I'm definitely going to give the TK with the DoE and Dune Cloak a try. I've tried my best against the knights with the Ushabti but even with S6 attacks that's only a -3 modifier (cries to self ONLY A -3) which leaves the Knights with a 4+ and like stated before with the nurgle blessing best I'm hitting back is a 4+. Its a tough fight for sure but they usually end up dying pretty hard, especially if they don't pull off the charge and with tomb king magic it can by trying to pull off the spell you need against chaos. The knights get so many return attacks at strenght 5 they tend to shred apart any tk unit they hit due to our weak armor saves. I won't give up trying to pull off the Ushabti approach but its hard (especially with their inferior movment compared to the knights at least)

Oenghus
14-01-2009, 21:42
You can always hide the Ushabti. Keep them behind your skeletons (or at least behind enough that they're a pain to charge. Force the knights to hit your skellies (or something --- anything --- else) and then use movement and magic to do an around-the-corner charge. It's not perfect, but I'm not sure that there's a perfect solution.

Remember that with magic your scorpions can effectively charge 21 inches. Tack a scorpion onto the flank of a knight unit and it ought to hang around (for a turn, anyway).

EDIT: Which will give you another charge-free turn from one unit of knights so you can deal with the other one. Forgot that last bit.

PopeAlexanderVI
14-01-2009, 22:46
Ushabti aren't that great.

Screaming Skull Catapults are your best shot, also Tomb Guard.

Goruax
14-01-2009, 22:50
I have to say, you seem to be too confident about the Chariots 'eating' Warriors.
Sure, a unit of 3 will do, on average, 6 Impact Hits (or 9 if Scythed)

But even if they're S5 then you're gonna kill 3 at most with IH, then maybe 2 more, if you're lucky, with the Crew/Steeds.
Then they proceed to bitch-slap your chariots which aren't that tough and don't have particularly good saves.

Throw in an exalted, and you're looking to lose, unless you actually get a flank charge.

Neknoh
14-01-2009, 23:20
Main thing I would say is to send your Bone Giant against the Marauders, he'll be hitting on fours rather than fives (is he really weaponskill three? Remember, the Mark of Nurgle only reduces weaponskill in close combat, it is not a -1 to hit like with shooting).

If he brings the Mark of Nurgle on his Warriors, you are looking at a unit that, although strong, suffers greatly from psychology issues, incidentilly, this is also where most of the enemy points are tied up. With the models being 25 millimetres wide at their base, you are looking at a 125mm frontage in a 5 wide Warrior unit, this means that you can get up to FIVE Ushabti into base to base with the Warriors in their front. That's a lot of strength six attacks, and unlike the knights, even when using shields, a minus three modifier will reduce the warriors to 5+ saves.

With smiting, you can even shave off a rank if lucky. What is also to remember is that four ushabti have a unit strength of twelve, so after a decent round of close combat (with some shooting beforehand) you'll be looking at a unit that will get autobroken by a win from the ushabti rain of attacks.

The Knights are best dealt with through tarpiting and luring around the field, my guess is that one of them has the Banner of Rage, making them Frenzied, remember that Frenzied units must always overrun, this can work to your advantage by charging, say, three carrion or less into their flank, I do not know of the wounds on carrion though, but if it is merely one, this should do fine. The unit will get absolutely hammered by the attacks of a single knight and the resolution from the rest of the knights will make them crumble, forcing an overrun in a very wierd angle.

Basically, Giant and chariots goes into Marauders
Ushabti goes into Warriors
And skellies flank Knights

Ymir
15-01-2009, 01:18
I fought a Slaanesh-themed Warriors of chaos army yesterday. I did lose, but I've never ever seen a Tomb King earn his points back so efficiently as mine did that game.

My opponent deployed his two units of chaos knights one on each side, and those where my main worry. Had I succeded in stopping them both, I would have won, but I overdid my defence on one flank and had all the wrong units on another, and thus that second flank was overrun and cost me the game. I began writing a Battle Report, but I don't think I'll have time to finish it. Anyhow, here's how we deployed:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r160/Natsymir/Warhammer/Deploymentandlegend.jpg

The 'Banner of Ashmun' are chariots, the Banner of Karnak are 25 skeleton warriors w. light armour and shields, and the Banner of Eternity are 20 Tomb Guards. Menetnashte was my Tomb King, running around alone on foot, equipped with the Collar of Shapesh and the Destroyer of Eternities.

The idea was to force the knights to charge the skeleton block, which would get severly decimated but likely hold, and then the Tomb King and the Ushabti would countercharge. It was effective enough, my opponent sensed the trap, of course, and hesitated behind the hill on the left, and got flank charged by the Tomb King who, with help from a well-timed My Will Be Done, killed four chaos knights all by himself. He proceeded by charging the enemy general, an exalted hero with a horse, shield and runesword, slaying him instantly. Running around alone seemed really viable for the Tomb King in this game; he was always so close to the skeleton block that he could use the Collar, and yet he could run through woods unhindered and charge in all directions. That worked wonders.

On the same flank, a single chariot unit overran a full marauder block (25 man); T3-infantry really die like flies to impact hits.

On the other flank though, a flank charge by chariots -combined- with a frontal charge by Tomb Guard in the magic phase proved insufficent to kill more than a single Chaos knight, they held due to their Battle Standard Bearer, and my chariots got flank charged by Chaos warriors, whereby the Tomb Guard as well got obliterated by combat resolution.

My hierophant got killed by a puny magic missile, cast with Irresistible Force, and my army started falling apart. It was pretty much game over, no matter the great success of my Tomb King.

My ushabti failed to do anything useful for the entire game. That's why I lost, I think. A skeleton block + a Tomb King on one flank proved enough to handle 5 chaos knights and an exalted hero; I should have left the Tomb Guards at home and secured the other flank by fielding another large skeleton block accompanied by 4 ushabti ready to counter-charge. That would have put the fear of Nehekhara in him.

Ushabti aren't bad at all versus Chaos Knights. They've got rather many attacks, good weapon skill, and can get even more attacks in the magic phase. My opponent was cautious about them, and with good reason - they've trashed his Chaos Knights before.

I left my Bone Giant at home because one of its main benefits are terror, which my opponents entire army would be immune against due to the Mark of Slaanesh. 3 ushabti's got more attacks at the same strength for less points.

Also, I wanted to field a Casket in conjunction with a Catapult. The catapult did some good, killing a chaos knight and several marauders, but the Casket got thwarted by the Collar of Khorne; damn magic resistance!

All in all, an interesting game...Tomb Kings do struggle versus Chaos, but look at the bright side: Chaos aren't nearly as good as other armies at stopping many of the tricks we can pull. They don't got any good shooting to take down ushabti, chariots, scorpions and liche priests, and they have a rather hard time dealing with carrions as well as our war machines. Some of their good items and spells, for example Pandaemonium, The Infernal Puppet, the entire Lore of Slaanesh, doesn't threaten us that much, and the Flail of Skulls and Destroyer of Eternites are really good at taking down Exalted Heroes. And, they are absolutely terrified of the Casket.

It could be worse for sure. I'm even more afraid of High Elves; they've got eagles to mess with my Casket, and that damn Flames of the Phoenix never fails to make my kings and princes meet a fiery, gruesome end. (At least until their undead bodies reassemble themselves from the ashes back in a distant, dust-blown tomb...)

all_seeing_eye
15-01-2009, 01:36
You might want to try a unit of 19 skeletons (hand weapon shield or just plain bows) with a prince that has scorpian armor. I find this block can hold anything and everything that charges it as long as the prince stays alive. If have something position such as a Tomb Guard unit with the banner of Rakaph (perferably with a Tomb King w/h destroyer in it) or Ushabti near by your can get the jump and hit his flank.

clintv42
15-01-2009, 02:38
Thanks a lot for all of you who are replying. From what I've taken of your suggestions this is what I'm plotting.

I'll have a king with the destroyer of eternities and the desert cloak. His job is to head hunt for knights. I'll have a unit of skeletons as bait for a second unit of knights with a unit of ushabti (about 4 of them) nearby to pull off a counter charge.

I am thinking about not using a bone giant this game. Normally I field 2 tomb scorpions but I think I will not field any this game and instead field a unit of tomb guard and within it I'll have a priest.

I'll have a unit of chariots with a prince in it to hunt marauders (aka wait for ulrick to arrive) And I'll field 1 possibly 2 screaming skull catapults. If I field a second I will most definitely be fielding another priest to help power smite and or power counter charge. (one of these priests will hold 2 dispel scrolls)

from what I just listed I'm at about 1600 points out of 2250. Granted I'm in need of another troop selection. but the max that would cost me is about 250 (a solid sacrificial block with banner of undying legion) Any suggestions as to what I should use to fill the void before I try to put what you all have suggested to work?

Ymir
15-01-2009, 04:14
Well, skeleton archers aren't bad, especially not versus T3 opponents. Always hitting on 5's is -good-, it makes a mess of pesky Wood Elf scouts and such.

Also, shooting of any kind is really good at taking down chaos hounds and marauders. Marauder horsemen will die quickly to arrows.

So I would suggest archers, as many as possible. If your opponent only uses 20 marauders in each block, you'll need only a single kill to remove some of his rank bonus - that's great; for you. There's also the option of having the archers reform inte solid infantry blocks to hold firm against charges, but I haven't had great success with that strategy thus far. It does work in theory, though.

Another skeleton block could be useful, especially if your opponent doesn't use the Mark of Slaanesh. He seems to have -a lot- of support units though, so I would go for archers for sure.

As you use a king, there's always the option of more chariot units. You really can't have too many, they rule. Chaos won't be able to decimate them by shooting, either.

Do remember, though, that the cloak makes the king able to fly, but he can't use that flying move to charge. That's why I didn't field my king with it, I thought it would be of more use on my hierophant. Plus, I wanted to give the king -some- kind of save in case he had bad luck and failed to slay an enemy on the charge. I'll confess, though; that didn't happen.

I wouldn't field a tomb prince and a tomb king in the same army; I feel that gives me way too little magic power. Maybe it works for you though; I might try it some day versus really fluffy, non-competitive armies. (I have a friend who runs orcs without goblins, for example. They rock!). Generally though, a King and three priests is the way to go if you don't use a High Priest.

Tomb scorpions aren't that great versus chaos, they can't really slaughter Chaos Knights the way they rip Silver Helms and such appart. Marauder horsemen and chaos hounds doesn't stand a chance against it, though, so it could be used for hunting them.

But you can't leave home without carrions. They have two wounds and T4, they are some of the best march blockers that exist. Chaos can't shoot them, so they'll likely have free reign across the board. They can win the game for you by delaying chaos knights and bogging down whole flanks. If you have carrions; field them. The more the merrier. 5 carrions will even remove rank bonus if they rear of flank charge. And even if they get sucked into an Infernal Gateway, it's not the end of the world; 5 carrion's just above 100 points.

A Casket would nerf the Tzeentch sorcerers somewhat, but it's always a liability as it ties up one of your priests. Two catapults might be just as useful, if not more.

Godswildcard
15-01-2009, 12:43
I have to say, you seem to be too confident about the Chariots 'eating' Warriors.
Sure, a unit of 3 will do, on average, 6 Impact Hits (or 9 if Scythed)

But even if they're S5 then you're gonna kill 3 at most with IH, then maybe 2 more, if you're lucky, with the Crew/Steeds.
Then they proceed to bitch-slap your chariots which aren't that tough and don't have particularly good saves.

Throw in an exalted, and you're looking to lose, unless you actually get a flank charge.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for chariots to lose against warriors, but I'm sure you and every other player will know that mathhammer will only get you so far. I've played Tomb Kings for 4 years, and I've always had great luck killing warriors/marauders with chariots. And just so you know, I'm not biased against WoC. I just started that army. I'm just trying to pass on what I've had luck doing.


On another note, One build I've had success with (though more against other armies:
Khalida
Liche Priest- Cloak of dunes, Heiratic Jar
Liche Priest- Staff of ravening
20 Skeletons w/ bows - blessing of the asp goddess
20 skeletons w/ bows - blessing of the asp goddess
2 tomb swarms (I.C.F.B.)
3 Chariots w/ banner of undying legion
8 Skeleton Light Horse
20 Tomb guard w/ full command, Banner that gives +1 to hit on first round of combat
4 Ushabti
1 Tomb Scorpion - deployed normally
2 Screaming Skull catapults- Skulls of the foe

The idea that you can get 80 poisoned shots off per round will make anything with a save of 4+ very, very dead. Anything more than that use the scorpion, ushabti , Tomb Guard and catapults to kill. One thing I like about this list is that it allows me to ensure one of my catapults is firing twice a turn. I use the chariots and light horse to flank and basically just be a pain in the neck.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
15-01-2009, 14:03
This is extremely simple but have you thought about a couple of very large skellie blocks that you can replenish to hold of the charge of the chaos knights. The only thing you have that can kill them unitwise is tomb guard (killling blow) and ushabti (strength 6)
Just some quick ideas

clintv42
15-01-2009, 14:26
Excellent. Thanks for the feedback folks. I play tonight so I should be able to give you some feedback on what I used and how it all went down.

I did make a Tomb Queen archer list that I'm excited to try but I wanted to try beating chaos without her first.

And to Dragon Prince of Caledor, I generally field my units of skeletons 20-25 strong. I would imagine going more than that would start to be prohibitive but we'll see how this all goes. It may be feasible to go with more.

clintv42
17-01-2009, 23:33
Well, I'm pleased to say that your advice was very helpful. It ended up being a draw but to me not getting slaughtered and using this list for the first time was a success. This is what I had.

Tomb King: DoE and Cloak
Tomb Prince: chariot and great weapon
Lich Priest: Neferra Plaque
Lich Priest: 2 dispel scrolls
20 Tomb Guard: full command, Icon of Sacred Eye
4 Carrion:
4 Ushabti:
20 Skeletons: Full Command, Spears, Shields, and Banner undying legion
20 Skeletons: Bows
4 chariots: Full command, Standard of cursing word
2 Screaming Skull Catapult: Skulls of the foe

my opponent had:
5 knights Nurgle and rage
4 dragon ogres
20 chosen with festis
25 marauders Slannesh
25 marauders Slannesh
about 30 hounds
exalted champion with the knights
Lord on demonic steed

Next time I run this list I'll be getting rid of skulls of the foe and spears and shield on my skeleton unit. I'll be taking more carrion and a chariot of fire for the Tomb Prince. This is how things went down.

Turn 1
My tomb king flew to the middle of the board and cast urgency on himself to place him in the middle of the knights, lord, and dragon ogres. That march blocked them. That was on the right side of the board. On the left side of the board my archers and catapults barraged the crap out of his chosen. Of course he made nearly ever regeneration save due to festis but it was ok.

Turn 2
I flank charged his knights. I killed a knight. He caused a wound due to combat res. Now before I continue let me tell you what happens every freaking time I use a tomb king to fight...well really anything. On a chariot he charges forward ferociously until they side step it and shove a stick in the wheels shattering the chariot. The horses continue dragging the tomb king into the sunset. This has happened every single (and I do me every single) time I've fielded him on a chariot. It wasn't much of a change with him on foot. Back to the match. Round two I rolled horrible with the tomb king again and he didn't do a single wound, not even with smite. He exploded due to combat res and the knights made their leadership from his curse.

The rest of the game was pretty uneventful until the dragon ogres hit combat. In summary my tomb guard hit a unit of dogs and followed them into the dragon ogres. My ushabti hit the dragon ogres as well that turn. I killed one and did a couple wounds. He didn't do much in return, killed an usabti and a tomb guard. I broke him in combat and chased after him. He charged my tomb guard with his remaining knights and characters. I killed the knights and later his exalted champ. The unit would have been decimated if not for the unfaltering efforts of the lich priest. After 2 rounds of combat I broke his lord and managed to catch him. Bye-bye lord.

Overall this what went right and wrong:
The Catapults were flawless. Amazing! I'll always use at least one of them.

The tomb guard were great. Against chaos I'd say you gotta take'em. Especially for fighting pesky knights.

I will continue to try using the Tomb King because I refuse to believe he is a bad character. I just roll ungodly bad with him every time I use. One of these days I'll break the streak.

The tomb prince did exactly what I wanted him to. I was fielding him to support the chariots, add impact hits, and when the time came a curse bomb. When he died it was pretty nasty but he managed to take out 3 chosen and a marauder with his curse.

The skeleton warriors with spears weren't of any use. I've not once managed to make use of skeleton warriors with shields and spears. From now on I'll be going bows.

The archers did very well. 2 rounds in a row I hit with 10 and 11 shots out of 20. Pretty good aim for hitting on a 5 plus.

the carrion died pretty hard but I had made the mistake of assuming they had unit strength of 2. Since they I was wrong they didn't take away flank and i lost 4 wounds instead of 1. The second round of combat they exploded. Next time I won't make that mistake with them.

The chariots didn't do well because of the formation of the opponent. I ended up getting screwed out of several attacks. Its hard to make use of 4 chariots just because of the large space they take up. I'll figure them out one of these days.

The lich priest go without saying. They're the back bone of the army.

So, next time I play I think I'll continue to maneuver the Tomb King around the opponent until the last minute when not only he can charge but something else can help support him. He'll be able to march block them longer as well.

The chariots I'll have to make better deployment/positioning but thats just getting use to their size.

The carrions like I said, need more numbers but I think after that's done I'm good to go.

So, like I said thank you all for the suggestions, they worked pretty well. I was able to pull a draw when in the past it was a slaughter. If you folks have any more suggestions I'm more then willing to listen. My next list will be the queen but I think I'm gonna try this list a couple more times to tweak it. Thank you all.

Neknoh
18-01-2009, 13:19
Those aren't chosen if he's supposed to have a legal list, merely normal warriors.

And Skulls of the Foe are flaming attacks, no? That means no regeneration, meaning these are the prime-templates to land on that regenerating Warrior block.

Overall, I would say you did well, you just got screwed by bad dice rolls, if you whish to blast the knights, I would avoid sticking the tomb king in untill you can get a charge on them and challenge the exalted to explode the unit with the destroyer. Remember, the Exalted must challenge, meaning if you trap the knights with the tomb-guard, he'll be fighting the champion endlessly whilst your Tomb King can use the destroyer to explode two knights a turn by rear-charging them after march-blocking them for half the game.

Carrion are flying and thus skirmishing, they wont negate ranks, ever. They can claim the Flank bonus if you have five or more of them, but they wont ever negate ranks