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W0lf
15-01-2009, 20:13
Sorry had to be done :D

Oh and incase you missed it chalk and cheese?

So my 2 cents;

I think Daemon princes are well externally balanced. They only suffer from having to cmpete with GDs. Its also a tad odd that marking them gives no benefit (other then acess to lore/items) for 35 pts and that they only get 75 pts of items.

I think daemonettes are pretty well balanced, good at killing T3 infantry.. a nice specialist unit.

Thats probably it?

sulla
15-01-2009, 20:29
I don't think either of those choices are balanced. The 'money for nothing' upgrade for marks on daemons and lvl2 make them poor value, not balanced.

And in my experience, daemonettes don't seem to be particularly good at killing anything. s3 is not enought to kill even s3 infantry well enough to win combats.

For balance, I would say flesh hounds. Expensive but resilient. good hitting power but not excessive compared to many heavy cav options out there.

Plaguebearers and bloodletters seem fairly priced. Both units have strengths but also their fair share of weaknesses. Furies are fair too.

Seekers seem fine. Very fragile and hit about as hard as a wet newspaper but very fast and excellent banner choices. Screamers are probably fine too. I struggle to use them well but other guys I know have used them to great success. Nurglings are passable value too although the daemon army generally doesn't need flank guards too much since most units are capable of dealing with fast flankers on their own.

Bloodcrushers are certainly not a bargain unit with their poor AS but with the extra armour-cracking ability over flesh hounds, they are probably fairly costed. Also fiends are fair too. Don't know about nurgle slugs, they look overpriced but I've never used one.

Wolfmother
15-01-2009, 20:59
flesh hounds! look at all the deamons touney lists how many have flesh hounds? most! there magic resistance 3 is ridic!

i would like some weaknesses of plaugebears he bit your missing out is the fact these units alway have a heral in which makes thme broken.

u seem to underestimate that these units are ok by themselvs but with a herald they are broked asf, hatred, regen

and bloodcrushers are a way of channeling sculltaker on juggernaught into combat!

W0lf
15-01-2009, 22:04
Daemonettes with a herald are not broken.

How many times doi need to explain that ASF is hardly amazing on M6 I6 troops?


For balance, I would say flesh hounds. Expensive but resilient. good hitting power but not excessive compared to many heavy cav options out there.

Pt for pt they are the best cavalry unit in the game. Balanced? i think not. Hell they are one of the worst offenders imo.

logan054
15-01-2009, 22:22
Plaguebearers and bloodletters seem fairly priced. Both units have strengths but also their fair share of weaknesses. Furies are fair too.

sorry, plague bearers at 12pts fairly priced... erm no, not with the locus. took me 3 turns to kill a unit of 15 + hearld while being engaged in both flanks a front and i wasnt rolling poorly either.

Hrogoff the Destructor
15-01-2009, 22:37
I'm just going to make a list here. It might be a bit bias since I'm a daemon player. So when you want to rip my throat out for what I say, please try and take it easy.

Overpriced:
Plaguebeast. It just costs too much, and when compared to the rest of the daemon book it just isn't appealling. I don't think it's that overpriced though.

Balanced:
By themselves none of the core choices are over/underpowered. Well, horrors en mass can be. Its when you combine heralds with them that things begin to change.

Daemonette's with herald (ASF). Daemonette's already have insane movement and good initiative. The chances are they'll be attacking before the enemy in the first place. They don't really have enough attacks to do anything stellar.

Bloodletters with herald (hatred). They become pretty good, but hatred is a one round thing. When it's gone they become normal bloodletters, which it by no means exceptional. They have good movement and initiative though.

Furies. They are designed to hunt down weak skirmishers/machine crews and do a decent/subpar job of it. When they lose combat, they all die.

Nurglings. A lot of people think they are overpriced, but I disagree. Swarms are generally situational. They have their strengths and weaknesses, and are only really useful at the right times.

Pleasureseekers. They are really really fast, but they don't really do anything. They are good at killing small weakened units. They excel at negating ranks, but the same came be said of all fast cav (it's just these guys are much faster).

Bloodcrushers. Yeah, people are going to disagree here, but hear me out. They have two wounds, really wide bases, and two saves. Small arms fire can do a pretty good job messing them up. Their huge bases can be a big disadvantage. If you have a cheap throwaway unit like harpies, chaos hounds, or great eagles, throw them in from of them while leaving the rest of your force behind. The bloodcrushers can't really move around it, and are pretty much forced to run into it. If you hit them in the side with anything then it's bye-bye squad. Yeah, you might have to sacrafice something to do it, but a good general will be prepared to do that.

Daemon princes. You can tool them out to be really good, but they cost you an arm and a leg. They are just overshadowed by greater daemons.

Underpriced:
Fiends of slaanesh. Imagine ogres. But way faster.

Plaguebearers with herald (so regeneration). They become the ultimate tarpit. Yeah, they don't kill anything, but you don't kill any of them. This is a squad you go after with a hero to kill the herald. Give them the banner of poisoned attacks count as two for combat res, they can do a good job of winning combats while suffering minimal loses.

Horrors with herald (4+ ward). Yeah, they fight worth crap, but they are tough as heck. That and you have to make a fear check to charge these things that couldn't even fight their way out of a paper bag. It's another place to send a hero to kill the herald (and I don't want to hear that the heralds hard to kill).

Broken:
Flamers. I'm convinced one squad isn't too bad in a friendly game, but two squads...

Flesh hounds. They are really really dependable due to two wounds. You can pretty much rely on them to do a good job. Hell, they are like knights of the realm with 2 attacks on the charge, 2 wounds, cause fear, and have magic resistance. They are just too cheap for their price.

Bloodthirster.

Keeper of secrets.

Unsure:
GUO, haven't used one yet.

Lord of Change, haven't used yet.

Screamers, haven't used yet.

Personally I think the biggest problem with daemons is about abusing broken units and cheap abilities. Then people abuse one thing until it's downright broken (psychology, magic phase). Daemons have virtually ever ability your army can dream of, but for a cheaper price. Then it can't be negated like other magic items. The more and more of these abilities you stack on your army, the better they become. 4 heralds in a 2000 point army can change a balanced force to a really powerful one.

Slaanesh armies with masque and keeper of secrets can wreck havok throuh psychology. Haven't seen one in action, but it's pretty easy to imagine what they can do.

Tzeentch, well, we all know what they can do and how scary it is.

I personally have dealt with all nurgle and khorne armies just fine and don't fear them (even with their so called overpowered combos).

chivalrous
15-01-2009, 22:39
flesh hounds! look at all the deamons touney lists how many have flesh hounds? most! there magic resistance 3 is ridic!

Magic resistance has taken a bit of a hit recently though with the recent FAQ... although that does still depend on your definition of 'target' and this certainly isn't the place for that particular discussion.

W0lf
15-01-2009, 22:43
Id say thats a very reasonable list. Infact you have made me consider somenew things aswell as reconfirm ideas i had previously.

I too think Blood letters + Daemonettes are fair with and without heralds.
Plague beasts likewise i think should be more around 75-80 pts.

Blood crushers are fine they just suffer from being in the same list as fleshounds. Id argue they are fair too.

I agree with all the 'balanced'section exept for pleasure seekers. They are pretty hard when used correctly.

Broken likewise is spot on. Just need to add;
Kairos, skull taker, plaguebearers+herald (always together anyway).


Interesting to discuss the things that are fine with the daemons list lol

Hrogoff the Destructor
15-01-2009, 23:05
I agree with all the 'balanced'section exept for pleasure seekers. They are pretty hard when used correctly.

I put them there because they aren't quite like most fast cavalry. Yeah, they move a lot faster and have a decent amount of attacks, but they cannot flee as a charge reaction. Generally people move their fast cavalry up and start march blocking and then this usually happens:

"Alright, I charge the..."
"Flee. Let's see, they get away."
"Um, okay."

So they can't flee as a reaction (which is a huge deal in my opinion), but have the beneift of being super fast with a decent amount of attacks.

As for special characters, well, they're pretty brutal. But most recent special characters have been.

EvC
15-01-2009, 23:29
Not really, Warriors, Dark Elf and Vampire Count characters are all pretty decent. None are crazily underpriced like most of the Daemon ones.

W0lf
15-01-2009, 23:47
Yeah Herald of nurgle > Exalted champion.

Without the free regen to his unit (insnt that like a 125 banner you need to pay 25 pts to get?)

sulla
16-01-2009, 02:45
sorry, plague bearers at 12pts fairly priced... erm no, not with the locus. took me 3 turns to kill a unit of 15 + hearld while being engaged in both flanks a front and i wasnt rolling poorly either.

The herald is irrelevant to the plaguebearers price. Play them without a herald and tell me you still think they are underpriced. Slow, dreadful initiative, below par ws...

It's the herald that's the problem, not the troops.




Pt for pt they are the best cavalry unit in the game. Balanced? i think not. Hell they are one of the worst offenders imo.

They are not great vs low strength shooting, my assassins love to killing blow them, they run out of the general's ld then pop quickly due to flank charges. Can't hurt 1+ save knights...

Again, it's the khorne jugger herald that makes these guys good. Pt for pt, I'd far rather CoK's with the armour piercing banner as armour crackers or nurgle chaos knights for resilience. And both come in armies with decent flank protection for the cav too, which flesh hounds do not.

necroyp
16-01-2009, 04:24
Quick comment - demons are balanced except when people abuse the extreme build of greater demons (oh and a couple of unit like FLAMERS). Try facing the keeper with siren, temptor and the other LD test power. Throw in -2 banner and the mask. Try beating this with anything.

Kerill
16-01-2009, 07:07
Daemons are not that broken:
Core infantry is all fine with the exception perhaps of horrors would switch their access to bolt of change to 4th level and at their 3rd level they get the level 6 spell, oh and be reduced to Ws2.
SPECIALS:
All are fine here IMO
I really don't think flesh hounds are overpowered. For 35 points they do not fare well in comparison to some similarly priced heavy cavalry. 2 wounds and a 5+ ward is not as good as a 1+/2+ save in combat because you take more casualties in return. Dragon Princes, grail knights and chaos knigts are all much better at the same job. Fleshhounds also die much faster (even with their 2 wounds) to small missile attacks (bows, crossbows etc.). Finally any attack that does more than 1 wound (magic swords, killing blow) racks up combat res very quickly. IF you really pushed me I would say up them to 38 points. I don't think the problem lies here though.

RARE:
Only one broken thing here I think, and that is flamers. They should be 45 points each.
Fiends are good but 55 points. Compared to an ogre with add hand weapon they have +1WS, +3I, AP, 5+ ward and the big one, M10 (but lose bull charge). They cost 16 points more and can't get a command group

Characters:
Here is where it has all gone HORRIBLY wrong.
Herald of Khorne: 190 points for usual set up for an absolute combat monster with tremendous defence and a massive threat to anything. To return to one thing I mentioned earlier, fleshhounds are not OP but fleshhounds with a 190 point herald are shockingly overpowered. Since together they can break anything in the game.
Comparing a herald to an exalted we can see they have +1S (20 points, although the exalted can get a halberd for 4 points) KB (20 points) and a 5+ ward (25 points) but no 4+ armour save. Yet they are cheaper. I would propose making them 150 points each base and the jugger raised in cost to 75 points (when have you seen a herald on anything else?). So standard build herald of Khorne now costs 265 points.
Herald of Nurgle- Let's compare them to the exalted again: -2Ws, +1S,+1T, -4I. That seems almost fair. Again we have 5+ ward instead of 4+ save (15 points) and regeneration (40 points). Base cost compared to an exalted should be 165. However the ability he grants to the units is very powerful (although the unit is fairly crap without it) so we'll boost it up further to 190. Standard build herald of nurgle now 285 points.
Herald of Tzeentch: This one isn't AS bad. Compared to a level 2 chaos sorcerer they have -2Ws, -1S, -1T, -1I and a 4+ ward (45 points) instead of chaos armour (15 points). The unit ability is ok, but not that useful since the herald is still very easy to kill. I'll suggest a boost to 135 points here.
Herald of Slaanesh- Not broken at all IMO. ASF is a decent ability for a unit but a lack of eqipment options and fighty gifts really does hurt the slaaneshi herald.
Greater Daemons:
Mostly fine and dandy here, although the bloodthirsters re-roll missed hits every round should be 45 points.
Daemonic gifts:
I think when all the changes I suggested are added in there is one thing in the normal list left to discuss:
Siren song. This is the one thing that makes KOS and Herald of slaanesh overpowered. I suggest a simple change- siren song works as now IF the target unit fails a Ld test on their own Ld. The gift is still good, but no longer stupidly powerful. A slaanesh player will now have to try and get their magic, the bsb and siren song into play in order to get much value from the song (or will need to pick on very poor units meaning the enemy good units are safe from 1st turn destruction.

Special Characters:
Kairos, blue scribes and the masque all disappear into the warp never to be seen again. No fiddlig about here, just get rid of them.

Suggested Power boosts for daemon army (yes, don't look incredulous)
Daemon Prince- causes terror, gets 100 points of daemonic gifts, pays for mark as currently but can then choose its gifts from the general pool and its patron's pool freely.

Shamfrit
16-01-2009, 08:29
I don't think Kairos inherintly is overpowered, when combined with a mono Tzeentch army hes, but in a list not tailored to magic he's mediocre at best.

Simply because, although he's flying, if you catch him (and i've seen it done) then he's dead, simple as. Maximum CR he can generate is +cr, even light cavalry or a blind duck can eat through that and cause 650 odd points to pop - that alone will make the unkillability of Horrors more fair.

Flamers, one squad? Fine, two? They're usually 4-5 strong and drop from use once they hit 3 or less - if you allow them to bunker near you and start firing at short, without moving, and without firing at Skirmishers then they're bad. But they're just short ranged shades with multiple wounds and itp otherwise. Hitting on 5's and 6's when you move isn't what I'd call game breaking, so hit them first.

W0lf
16-01-2009, 15:06
Dragon Princes, grail knights and chaos knigts are all much better at the same job. Fleshhounds

Flesh hounds are infinitly better then dragon princes.

Lets see...

Swap 2+ armour save, steed attack and 5 pts for;

5+ ward
T4
2 wounds
MR 3
S5 all the time
Instability
Magical attacks

Oh and ofc cold ones are better can-openers.. thats not the flesh hounds job.. they dont hunt enemy cavalry. The beat the hell out of T3 infantry/T4 infntry in flank etc.

Kerill
16-01-2009, 15:19
Infinitely better?
Also don't forget:
DP have immunity to fire (small issue)
DP can get a command group (quite important)
DP get a magic banner option
DP champ gets magic item option (small issue)
5 points cheaper.

5 Fleshounds vs. 25 empire spearmen- DRAW, spearmen win with musician
5 Dragon Princes, Standard (cheaper than 5FH)- DP win by 2.
Second round DP lose by 1, fleshounds DRAW and lose by due to musician

Also FH die faster to shooting.

Are FH good? Yes
Better than DP? Yes
Infinitely better? No, 5 points better, 8 at most ;)

Zoolander
16-01-2009, 16:11
Daemonettes with a herald are not broken.

How many times doi need to explain that ASF is hardly amazing on M6 I6 troops?



Pt for pt they are the best cavalry unit in the game. Balanced? i think not. Hell they are one of the worst offenders imo.

Um... except that M6 and I6 are better than 3/4 of the infantry out there. You also forgot to mention they each have 2 attacks, immunity to psychology and a 5+ward, making them a very dangerous threat. Let's just say I have fought my friend's list with my daemons, with my VC, and with my DEs, and those daemonettes chomp through stuff. Usually, the entire first rank was killed before they got to strike back. Plaguebearers are worse, IMO, but daemonettes are the second nastiest DoC infantry.

EvC
16-01-2009, 16:25
Sounds to me like Daemonettes are exactly what they should be- huzzah!

Dooks Dizzo
16-01-2009, 16:51
The Blood thirster is the biggest offender to my way of thinking. There are magic weapons that can deal with it...so it gets Obsidian Armor. Bunk Sauce. And the fact that it costs less than a Lord on a Dragon is nuts.

People keep failing to mention the 2 wounds on the Flesh Hounds. 3 wounds from shooting = 1 dead flesh hound. Not good.

Plague Bearers with Regen are bad, but once you start going after them with lots of static combat resolution they will fall over. It's just that you're generally going to need 2 units to attack them at once to reliably win combat.

I do have a question: why is the Standard of Sundering a problem for people? I write down the magic lore that I am taking on my army list and do not inform my opponent until the first spell is cast. Playing DE I have 5 options for lores and usually split them up between my mages, seriously reducing the Standards ability to bother me. (I like to use Fire, Metal and Dark. Let's see them guess which the level 4 has :) )

Von Wibble
16-01-2009, 17:25
I thought you had to tell your opponent what lores you were using when you select spells. Which is before terrain is placed.

Whereas the Standard of Sundering is used after both armies are deployed, so the daemon player knows your lore choices. Choosing different lores is a good countermeasure but Metal isn't very good against them (1st spell poor)whilst Fire is very useful against regeneration

Hrogoff's list matches my own opinion in most areas. I actually think bloodcrushers are underpowered - they are no harder to kill than a Fiend of Slaanesh with shooting for a fair amount more points. Sure they hit harder - but with their base size and points cost it takes little to kill 2-3 in 1 shoooting phase.

Kerill - Currently Flesh Hounds do not die faster to shooting than Dragon Princes.

S3 firepower with no save modifier requires 12 hits to kill a dragon prince, and 9 for a Flesh hound.

S3 -1 AS is 6 hits for a Dragon Prince, 9 for a flesh hound.

S4 is 4.5 hits for DP, 6 for FH.

As Strength goes up armour saves go down but the ward save and 2 wounds come more into play. Flesh Hounds are more resilient to shooting unless it is S3.How many armies that plan to optimise shooting have only S3 firepower with no AS modifier? I can't think of any. DPs do get immunity to flaming but that's about it.

However, I can't see a practical way of increasing points cost for them. Therefore they should imo go to 1 wound and 30pts.

Also the problem with your Daemon Prince rule of 100pts and free choice is that he could have Dark Insanity. A fair ability on a Bloodthirster where the expected value is +2 attacks (?) with risk attached but from a lower base point of attacks its ridiculously good.

Hrogoff the Destructor
16-01-2009, 18:46
The Blood thirster is the biggest offender to my way of thinking. There are magic weapons that can deal with it...so it gets Obsidian Armor. Bunk Sauce. And the fact that it costs less than a Lord on a Dragon is nuts.

I actually started designing heroes that can combat the obsidian armor thirster, and so far most books I know can do it. People underestimate the ability of a standard great weapon. I made characters that may not be able to kill the thirster by themselves, but can at least pull off a draw. Then, the thirster will probably explode due to static combat resolution from the heroes squad. I take no mounts since dragons and what not are easy combat resolution for a thirster.

I'd give just about every hero here just a standard great weapon and place them in a massive squad. Some of these might be totally wrong since I am designing them off the top of my head without my boks (and what little knowledge I have of some other army books).

Dark elves: Gee... do I really have to explain this?
Wood elves: Take annoyance of nettings, and then whatever else abilities you like.
Empire: Mage. Metoric iron armor and VHS. Done. Or you want to make it a warrior priest with GW.
Brets: Reroll to hits and to wound in a challenge with the ability to killing blow large targets. Oh, grail vow too. Might have him running around by himself (I only ever face thirsters in Khorne armies, so they can't shoot him, and he can wait for the opportune moment to charge). He has something like a 60% chance of killing it.
Dwarves: I designed this without knowing whether or not it's legal. I'm not sure if I used to many master runes on one thing or not. But take 1+ armor with rerollable save, 4+ ward, great weapon. It should be able to draw a obsidian armor thirster before combat res. If you can take the "force charge" ability, and a rune of battle, I'd take those as well.
WoC: Right, this one isn't as good as the others. -1 up armor guy on a juggernaut, 6+ ward. It's the most downhill battle of any of these, but I'm sure the character will survive at least one round.
High Elves: Dragon armor. If your lucky he took +1 str. and flaming attacks. It makes the bloodthirster worthless. There is one item they have that might help, but I can't remember it's rules exactly (and I don't have my book handy). I swore it was something like the HE lord can't attack the enemy, but the enemy can't attack the lord. So issue a challenge and let static combat res do the rest (either that or that item is a figment of my imagination, it's been a long time since I looked at the book).
Daemons: Of course they can deal with it.

These heroes combined with a squad that has even +2-+5 combat res will for sure make that thirster pay.

However, the Skaven and Beastmen are unfortunately up crap creek. I think Tomb Kings are too.

You can make characters that can not only draw a thirster for a fraction the points, but these heroes are nothing to laugh against anyone else (for those of you that don't like tailoring armies can just stick with one of these lords). Most people think that they must take magic weapons to beat something like a bloodthirster when that's simply not true.

Most daemon players I see get overconfident with there greater daemons and send them in to deal with squads by themselves. That, and they generally always place and move them in the same fashion. If you know what your doing you can make them really pay the price (and make them look stupid in the process).

Dooks Dizzo
16-01-2009, 18:50
I thought you had to tell your opponent what lores you were using when you select spells. Which is before terrain is placed.I never heard anything about HAVING to tell your opponent which lores you took. In a tourny list is it already going to be indicated on your list, why would you have to tell your opponent? You don't have to tell him which magic items you took for example, so why which lores?

W0lf
16-01-2009, 19:06
Oh please...

Ive said it before and il say it again. Obsidian armour is ****.

if your blood thirster is fighting hard characters you are a failure at warhammer.

Max_Killfactor
16-01-2009, 19:12
I'd give just about every hero here just a standard great weapon and place them in a massive squad.


Then you're also relying on the demon player to charge (or be caught by) your massive unit with your lord.

Kerill
16-01-2009, 19:23
Let me check that again, with calculations
20 S3 bowmen vs fleshhounds, 4+ to hit:
Against fleshhounds: 20*.5*.333*.666= 2.21 wounds, 1 dead fleshhound
20 S3 bowmen against DP: 20*.5*.5*.1666= 0.833 almost 1 dead DP

S4
FH: 20*.5*.5*.666= 3.33 wounds to fleshhounds (1.665 dead)
DP: 20*.5*.6666*.333= 2.21 wounds to DP

Fleshhounds better against S4 than DP, worse against S3

Seems I was indeed half wrong.

30 points with 1 wound? They would never be seen again, be reasonable, we are trying to make the army not OP'd, not to make it complete crap. With 1 wound 22 points would be fair perhaps.

Bloodthirster should be an absolute monster in combat btw. DE dragon rider and Star Dragon can take it down, which is fine becaus they have the same cost range. Wanting a 200 point character to negate a 500+ one is equally unreasonable.

Xaskus
16-01-2009, 19:44
My thoughts on the Bloodthirster:

1) Yes, he can be seen as chessy and overpowered.
2) His equipment does make him a powerhouse

Here's where I defend him

3) He can still be raped by shooting, mainly warmachines
4) He has to win combats when he's by himself or else he will lose wounds fairly easily
5) 5 wounds make him killable in one round of shooting or heavy magic

OK, that my thoughts, feel free to destroy me.

W0lf
16-01-2009, 20:00
Defence is pathetic.

1. Try hiding him whilst using your plethora of options to rape shooting. Also some armies dont even have shooting and alot of 2K lists dont have the kind needed to kill a GD.

2. So when hes a flying large target why is he in combats he has trouble winning? That only happens if you noob it up with him.

3. See point 1. Oh and are you saying 5 T6 wounds with 5+ ward isnt enough? Or that you need more?

GuyLeCheval
16-01-2009, 20:12
Reroll to hits and to wound in a challenge with the ability to killing blow large targets.

That's two virtues. Any Brett hero/lord can only take one...

As for Skaven, I think plague censor bearers can do a good job at the bloodthirster, and maybe jezzails or a lucky shot from your warp-lighting cannon too.

GuyLeCheval
16-01-2009, 20:14
Oh, and can a Changer of fate also have obsidian armour? Because then, he does a much better job than the Bloodthrister as a flying terror causer?

Xaskus
16-01-2009, 20:48
1. Try hiding him whilst using your plethora of options to rape shooting. Also some armies dont even have shooting and alot of 2K lists dont have the kind needed to kill a GD.

First off, what's the point in taking a Bloodthirster if you are going to hide him and second you're trying to tell me that in 2K:
Empire don't take Steam Tanks or Cannons
Dwarves don't take Cannons, Bolt Throwers
Skaven don't Warp Lightning Cannons or Jezzails
Orcs don't take Spear Chukkas or Stone Throwers
Bretonnians I can see not taking a trebuchet but it's still an option
High Elves don't take Bolt Throwers
Tomb Kings are the same as Bretonnians with the Screaming Skull Catapult

2. So when hes a flying large target why is he in combats he has trouble winning? That only happens if you noob it up with him.

S**t happens in combat, like DE assassins, warp lightning shooting into combat, you whiff your attacks or wounds, you get Van Hels with another unit, a couple combats go bad and another unit pursues into you. The way you're talking it seems every one of your battles goes exactly like you want it to.

3. See point 1. Oh and are you saying 5 T6 wounds with 5+ ward isnt enough? Or that you need more?

Never did I say it's not enough or I want more. All I'm saying is that 2 bolt throwers can lay him low, a lucky shot from a cannon or stone thrower, mass shooting or magic. When D3 or D6 weapons start shooting him, he can die pretty fast.

Another thing too, even though I said destroy me, you can turn the douche knob down a bit. I defended a model, I didn't kick your puppy.

Hrogoff the Destructor
16-01-2009, 20:54
Then you're also relying on the demon player to charge (or be caught by) your massive unit with your lord.

Most of these heroes I listed can be in a squad of cavalry. So it doesn't even have to be in a huge block of infantry. You can still get 2+ or better combat res against the bloodthirster.

And the daemon player will most likely charge that cavalry squad w/ hero with their bloodthirster because they think it should be easy pickings.

loveless
16-01-2009, 21:03
Another thing too, even though I said destroy me, you can turn the douche knob down a bit. I defended a model, I didn't kick your puppy.

That is easily the best thing I've read on WarSeer all week.

Storak
16-01-2009, 21:36
30 points with 1 wound? They would never be seen again, be reasonable, we are trying to make the army not OP'd, not to make it complete crap. With 1 wound 22 points would be fair perhaps.

that would give them the same price as orc boar boys. pretty funny idea!

as they are, flesh hounds are the best cavalry in the game.


Most of these heroes I listed can be in a squad of cavalry. So it doesn't even have to be in a huge block of infantry. You can still get 2+ or better combat res against the bloodthirster.

And the daemon player will most likely charge that cavalry squad w/ hero with their bloodthirster because they think it should be easy pickings.

i noticed that you didn t mention orcs in your list... (without the collar, our chances are pretty low..)

+2 CR isn t very good, when the BT deals 1+ wounds to you. he will pass instability and kill your lord on the second turn of combat. and that will be the end of the cavalry unit you brought along.
(and it all still assumes that he wanted to get into combat with the unit including your lord...)


I never heard anything about HAVING to tell your opponent which lores you took. In a tourny list is it already going to be indicated on your list, why would you have to tell your opponent? You don't have to tell him which magic items you took for example, so why which lores?

he will know, when you roll for spells before deployment...

W0lf
16-01-2009, 21:42
Another thing too, even though I said destroy me, you can turn the douche knob down a bit. I defended a model, I didn't kick your puppy.

Lmao thats win.

Oh and as i said... flesh hounds/furies/fiends/seekers will take out enemy shooting early on, allowing BT full reign from ike 4th turn onwards... and thats assuming your playing an army with alot of shooting.

Dooks Dizzo
17-01-2009, 01:03
he will know, when you roll for spells before deployment... Just roll the dice and record the numbers, you don't have to be looking at the Lores when you do it.

Honestly there is no reason for the Standard of Sundering to be that much of a problem. You are in no way shape or form obligated to tell your opponent which lores of magic you are using. However, in the spririt of fair play, you need to write down which lores you will use before the game.

Kerill
17-01-2009, 03:20
Of course they should know what lores you are taking for the standard of sundering, otherwise its completely worthless.

@STorak, do we really need to drag boar boyz into everything? This would make them 1point cheaper than empire knights (1+ save)

Djekar
17-01-2009, 07:45
Allow me to answer for Storak.

Yes.

~Viola

SuperArchMegalon
17-01-2009, 08:34
I know how we can make this thread even more constructive: let's name armies that can't reliably do anything about a Bloodthirster without specifically tooling the whole army to him, if that's even possible. I'll just start us off - Ogres :P

Znail
17-01-2009, 10:24
Just roll the dice and record the numbers, you don't have to be looking at the Lores when you do it.

Honestly there is no reason for the Standard of Sundering to be that much of a problem. You are in no way shape or form obligated to tell your opponent which lores of magic you are using. However, in the spririt of fair play, you need to write down which lores you will use before the game.

Sounds to me that you want to twist the rules to your advantage there, or did you use that procedure all the time?

The correct way to do it is in the rulebook:

Players most declare wich Lore of Magic each of their Wizards is using before generating any spells.

thrawn
17-01-2009, 17:57
Gotta Question!

I was reading skulltakers rules again. did i read right when it said he can cause a killing blow to any sized model? please if you the demon book double check this. cause if that's the case, can he KB a dragon? hydra? think about it, he can kill anything then. stick him on a jugger, for 200 points? that's nuts! i play demons and i don't think i'd have the heart to do that to my friends, although it would be so much fun!:evilgrin:

Shamfrit
17-01-2009, 18:01
He can kill these things only in a challenge.

Outside of that, he's a normal Herald, get him in a challenge and he's toasty.

Havock
17-01-2009, 18:22
Personally I think the biggest problem with daemons is about abusing broken units and cheap abilities. Then people abuse one thing until it's downright broken (psychology, magic phase). Daemons have virtually ever ability your army can dream of, but for a cheaper price. Then it can't be negated like other magic items. The more and more of these abilities you stack on your army, the better they become. 4 heralds in a 2000 point army can change a balanced force to a really powerful one.

I've seen it; it's disgusting: the player had a fairly, well, 'tame' WoC list -nothing ITP except frenzied footsloggers and he wasn't able to do anything: units made stupid at Ld5, failing fear checks with every unit as well as having the movement of his frenzied units reduced to, say, one or two.

Someone really had a brainfart writing that book.

Oh, and the bloodthirster on his own is managable; it's obsidian armor that should be banned from that thing.

*edit*
And the -2 Ld banner is just... Too much, it shouldn't stack and/or be just -1.

Storak
17-01-2009, 20:23
Gotta Question!

I was reading skulltakers rules again. did i read right when it said he can cause a killing blow to any sized model? please if you the demon book double check this. cause if that's the case, can he KB a dragon? hydra? think about it, he can kill anything then. stick him on a jugger, for 200 points? that's nuts! i play demons and i don't think i'd have the heart to do that to my friends, although it would be so much fun!:evilgrin:

only during challenges.

but to stick to the topic for a moment, among special chars apart from kairos, the lord level and the champions seem to be alright.

all of the hero level chars on the other hand are not. (increasing their point costs by 100 each would be a good start for balancing)
each of them completely alters the gaming environment (tallyman automatically wins big games because of the poison change to 4+. scribes keep the enemy from casting 1 die spells. skulltaker makes all chars victims. and the masque causes massive Ld problems, depending on the rules used.)
all 4 of them shouldn t be in the book.

Storak
17-01-2009, 20:29
And the -2 Ld banner is just... Too much, it shouldn't stack and/or be just -1.

talking about banners, and factoring in their ability to take banners with many units (and multiples of the same) and BSBs who are incredibly hard to kill, i come to the conclusion that NOTHING is right with the daemon banners.

sorry.