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View Full Version : I'm going to prove to you why kroot are better than terminators.



take19
16-01-2009, 17:48
Take 1 Terminator (Loyalist) Equiped with a Storm Bolter and Powerfist. Now take 6 kroot without the armour save upgrade, rules here

http://www.freewebs.com/pfreck/Kodex%2520Kroot%2520V4.2.pdf

Fair enough this is two points over, but we'll give the terminator the first turn to compensate for this.

Now the intelligent gamer places the kroot in cover at the beginning of the game. (5+ cover save)

The two models are 24 inchs apart, with no terrain in the way.

Turn 1: Terminator moves, shoots, one shot will statistically fail. One cover save. 1 Dead kroot (66% chance).
Turn1: Kroot move 6 inches, now within rapidfire range, 10 shots, 5 Miss, 1 Wound, 17% chance of terminator dying.

Turn 2: Terminator moves 6 inches, one shot statistically will fail, 1 Kroot dies.
Turn 2: Kroot move a few inches, then assault. 12 attacks, 6 hit's, 3 wounds. 51% chance of terminator dying.

Terminator strikes back with 2 attacks, one miss, One kroot dead. 17% chance of kroot surviving.

Kroot hold ground. (for the sake of this secenario)

Turn 3: Kroot attack, only 3 left. 6 attacks, 3 hit, 1.5 wounds, 25% chance of dying.
Terminator kills one kroot in return.

Turn 4: Kroot attack, 2 left. 4 attacks, 2 misses, 1 Wound. 22% chance of wound. 17% chance of terminator dying.

Terminator statistically is killed.

If you add up all the chances of it dying:

17+51+25+17
=102%

So one dead terminator, 2 living kroot.

The percentages are based on rolls of a dice.

Thoughts?

Ubermensch Commander
16-01-2009, 17:56
Thoughs: 1) Your cover save is off. It should a 4+ yes?
2) Why didnt the Terminator just WALK BACKWARDS keeping the Kroot at 20-24inches away, forcing them to either leavy cover and get gunned down, or keep them pinned in cover till they die?
3) Ignores the advantage of the Terminator's ability to deepstrike
4) This is taken without full squads or upgrades and completely in isolation of any situation in the game.

Hicks
16-01-2009, 17:56
It's hard to tell if a unit is better than an other for the same points, because you never know how they will face each other on the tabletop. In your scenario, if the termie had waited outside the 24" range and then shot the kroot as they advanced things could have played out differently.

"Unforgiven"
16-01-2009, 17:58
But if the terminator is smart he will move backwards so he kan get more shots at the kroots. so the Kroots will probaly loose this one.

Mvh.

take19
16-01-2009, 18:02
Yeah I get you with the moving back idea, but this was just for the sake of argument.

Oh and sorry I was wrong with that cover save in the terminators first turn, the chance of the kroot dying should be 17% higher. It makes no difference though as the kroot was killed anyway.

*maccas*
16-01-2009, 18:02
never compare like this, every unit has a use in a particular scenario

although yes, i would much prefer 6 kroot to 1 terminator but thats just me

Edzard
16-01-2009, 18:04
I can use the same logic proving a boy with a tankbustabomb is better then a basilisk :P

Funny calculation, and I often make those in my head during games.. but not really realistic.

Griefbringer
16-01-2009, 18:07
Terminator statistically is killed.

If you add up all the chances of it dying:

17+51+25+17
=102%

So one dead terminator, 2 living kroot.


Statistically speaking, you cannot add the probabilities together to get the total probability of the terminator being dead.

Had the Tau been attacking a sufficiently large group of terminators, then the mean value of kills that could have been expected would have been 1.02 kills, though.

Ubermensch Commander
16-01-2009, 18:10
@ Take19
Well sadly your post said "prove" and then did a fairly absurd situation where the advantages of a unit (in this case longer range gun) are not taken into account.

I could say "I will prove how Tau Firewarrirors are better than Ork Boyz!" and then have slugga boys stand at 12" inch away from the FW and exchange shots with them. Not a good scenario I think you will agree.

Try again lad, try harder.

take19
16-01-2009, 18:11
What I'm getting at is, when the kroot even shot at him the terminator may have died, but what that is representing shows that the terminator would have by chance had to have failed one of his armour saves.

General Squeek Squeek
16-01-2009, 18:12
this also ignores the fact that the termies higher strength is completely wasted on kroot. At str8 w/ the powerfist he should be punching vehicles, ic, and mc not kroot. Thats like saying that heavy bolters are better at killing then lascannons and only using horde armies as your example while completely ignoring T7 creatures and av12+ vehicles.

take19
16-01-2009, 18:14
Try again lad, try harder.

Why are you patronising me, are you insecure about something in your life?

Also, referring to the above poster the terminator would never really be wounding on anything about 2+ with infantry anyway.

Ubermensch Commander
16-01-2009, 18:19
@ Take19
I was not patronizing you. I was trying to illustrate how wiht your vainglorious title, your example is utter and complete garbage. and I was trying to do so in a civil way.

take19
16-01-2009, 18:26
If you are being completely honest about not patronizing me then that's fine.

Bloodknight
16-01-2009, 18:37
Well, as the others said, the Terminator should have walked backwards for two turns. (he'll most likely reach the end of the deployment zone by then). Killing the 3rd Kroot will trigger an LD check, and every other Kroot after that. Basically, the Kroot will probably be better off by engaging the terminator shooting (if he moves out of range, the whole scenario fails because nobody will kill anybody ^^).

Toe Cutter
16-01-2009, 18:38
What I'm getting at is, when the kroot even shot at him the terminator may have died, but what that is representing shows that the terminator would have by chance had to have failed one of his armour saves.

So you mean there's a chance that the terminator may actually roll a one when making his armour saves? No way! I'm so not collecting a deathwing army in that case. Thats completely outrageous!

A terminator with a storm bolter, as has been pointed out, can remain outwith rapid fire and assault range of the kroot while still pouring storm bolter fire into them indefinitely. He has no reason to wish to assault them. The only reason he'd want to get anyway near the kroot would be if we actually switch back to the real world and realise that the kroot are generally part of a tau army that can outshoot a deathwing army. In this case it behooves the terminator to close ground with the tau and kroot. Fortunately for the terminator, in the real world (as real as 40k games are ever likely to get anyway) he's usually accompanied by four of his mates. One of whom often carries around this big ass nasty piece of equipment known as an assault cannon :eek: Assault cannons do things to kroot that the kroot really would rather didn't happen. At all. Ever.

To conclude: In your rather odd situation where, for reasons better known to himself, we have one lone terminator walking towards a bunch of kroot, his chances of failing an armour save are greater than their chances of all dying and/or running away. If however the terminator doesn't have some kind of inteligence debilitating disease and realises that the kroot can actually do a lot less damage to him with shooting attacks than they can in close combat then he will stroll leisurely backwards, thinking about what he's going to have for tea tonight and killing off kroot until they're all dead. If we actually enter the real world for a minute and put up a squad of five terminators with an assault cannon against a points equivalent of kroot warriors then I think you'll find the walking talking big birds would be dying off and/or running away a lot quicker.

I'm with the super human commander on this one. He's not being patronising, merely pointing out that your reasoning is somewhat sub par.

RevenantX
16-01-2009, 18:39
Also, it seems that you should take into account that unless the terminator is dead, he's probably going to win combat res each round which may force the kroot to fall back. Now, he can't sweeping advance, but he's going to gun down the kroot in the following round while they're out in the open.

Be that as it may, it's not a very good scenario, you're putting the Kroot in a situation that benefits them (deployed in cover in superior numbers against a single opponent) which maximizes their abilities while reducing any the terminator may have had. I mean, you even say as much in your original post.

Here's a scenario that is equally as likely:
Terminator spots 6 Kroot at 24", fires twice, both hit (remember, at a BS4 it's certainly well within reason that both shots hit), easily wounding the two kroot struck, one of whom fails his cover save. The 5 remaining Kroot, terrified at their new opponent hold their ground and fire back. Only two shots hit, both easily deflected by the space marines enhanced physiology and incredible armor.

Feeling the chicken scratches of kroot rifle on his armor, the Terminator laughs to himself and fires off another barrage of bolter fire, this time killing two kroot who fail their leadership test and break cover to escape this juggernugget of destruction that has visited them on some backwater world in the outer reaches of space.

The terminator then chases them down and performs the "Emperor's Final Judgement Suplex" on the entire kroot squad thus retaining the championship title.

take19
16-01-2009, 18:49
Terminator spots 6 Kroot at 24", fires twice, both hit (remember, at a BS4 it's certainly well within reason that both shots hit), easily wounding the two kroot struck, one of whom fails his cover save.

Two shot's, both needing a 4+ and a 3+, i'd say that one would more often than not miss...

djinn8
16-01-2009, 18:49
I'm not keen on statistics like this. I worked out a similer senerio the other day with lasgun toting guard and plague marines. Can't really remember the exact figures now but it worked out that around 180 lasgun shots had to be fired at a plague marine for a 100% chance of a kill. Then in the game I played a day or two after, a squad with one plasmagun, killed a 7 man strong Havoc squad in cover with only two turns of fire. Ok, they're not plague marines, but it still should have taken 550 shots or so, not the 30 it actually took.

Fire Harte
16-01-2009, 18:58
I think you need to analyse Unit vs Unit.

So that is what?

5 Terminators vs 30 Kroot (If not then two units).

EDIT: Also you haven't really analysed the whole thing. Like who is better at busting tanks etc.

Voracioustigger
16-01-2009, 19:06
Unit X vs. Unit Y is always a flawed comparison for several reasons.

1) What is the value of Scouts, Infiltrate, Deep Strike, move through cover, etc.? If the Scouts are in a CC army vs. a shooty army, the ability is worth a ton, AGAINST a CC army, it can be pretty worthless.

2) The value of a unit changes with the rest of the army. Case in point, 13th Company vs. Space Wolves. Put Grey Slayers as a SW army choice and no one would ever take anything else (+4pts for Scouts, Move through cover, and +1 attacks), but in a 13th Company army they're priced fine.

3) Some units are valuable for non-combat reasons. Librarians, Farseers, Warlocks, etc. are all valuable for improving OTHER models. Bikes are good for capturing objectives. The list goes on...

4) Some units compliment other units. Sure, 6 Kroot might beat 1 terminator 1 on 1, but if you put a bunch of marines in the way as a buffer, with the terminators there to clean up baddies that lock the marines in combat, then you have a valuable unit.

Ok, there are many more, but a post that says, here's a cool way to use Kroot, would be better than making a post which will inevitably end up in an argument that cannot be won.

monopeludo
16-01-2009, 19:09
As someone mentioned you cannot add probabilities this way.
First turn: the termi gets a X% of being killed.
Second turn: the termi probability of being killed is the probability of the gun shots being succesfull multiplied by the probability of the termy not being killed in the first round.

As probabilities are between 0 and 1 (1 being 100% and 0 being 0%), multipliying this factor makes the probability smaller.

You must also notice, when palying mathhammer, another fact no one mentioned. 6 kroots are able to kill 6 models shooting (Being lucky). One termi will never kill more than two models a turn (shooting), doesn't matter how lucky the termi is.

Sorry if my english is not correct.

Just my 2 €. :D

MasterGideon
16-01-2009, 19:09
Two shot's, both needing a 4+ and a 3+, i'd say that one would more often than not miss...



BS 4 it would hit on a 3+ and would on a 3+ so its more in favour of 2 dying I say.


MasterGideon

Griefbringer
16-01-2009, 19:11
ICan't really remember the exact figures now but it worked out that around 180 lasgun shots had to be fired at a plague marine for a 100% chance of a kill.

If you have an attack that has less than 100% chance of damaging an individual target, then usually no amount of such attacks combined can give you a 100% chance of damaging the target.

The Base
16-01-2009, 19:11
If the terminators have heavy flamers the kroot have no chance.

Preacher
16-01-2009, 19:12
The terminator then chases them down and performs the "Emperor's Final Judgement Suplex" on the entire kroot squad thus retaining the championship title.

This my friend...is quite possible THE GREATEST sentence I have ever read in my enitre life. Kudos to you for this literary masterpiece. If I could I would like to shake your hand right now. Thats just way to funny.



Trying rolling it out again with full squads. Even if it is a five on one for the Kroot..well see above quote. Kroot have their uses, but I dont know if killing Terminators is it.

Grand Master Raziel
16-01-2009, 19:12
Well, my last game was against a Blood Angels player. My Terminators were instrumental in that game, being able to move about while maintaining a constant volume of fire, and dispatching at least three Blood Angels units in assault (that being an 8-strong Death Company and two BA Assault Squads, BTW). At the end of the game, I still had two members of the squad left. Somehow, I don't think I'd have been better off with 30 Kroot in that game.

electricwolf
16-01-2009, 19:15
did you take into account that the terminator has a POWERFIST which in assault would just crush a kroot?

Did you also take into account that the terminator can also move 6 inches in the assault phase?

Did you take into account the new running rules?

Fire Harte
16-01-2009, 19:18
The powerfist would be useless if you are killed before you get a chance to strike though. So it is out of the question if the terminator is killed.

MasterGideon
16-01-2009, 19:22
On a side note, Ive had 1 Deathwing Sgt take on a unit of 20 Kroot and win and that involved one turn of shooting by them at HIM! thank good for alot of misses! and good saves by me!

So really to say a Kroot is better than a terminator well yea can be if the kroot is really lucky, so can a grot be really lucky! but on paper the terminator should and usually will win in many cases!


MasterGideon

Adra
16-01-2009, 20:09
This is a really stupid thread...everyone knows that Kroot are better than Termies because Kroot are crazy talking eat your face space birds and termies are fat guys in armour. Nuf said.

loveless
16-01-2009, 20:16
The terminator then chases them down and performs the "Emperor's Final Judgement Suplex" on the entire kroot squad thus retaining the championship title.

By the Throne...someone needs to make that diorama. Now. Seriously.

Toe Cutter
16-01-2009, 20:37
This is a really stupid thread...everyone knows that Kroot are better than Termies because Kroot are crazy talking eat your face space birds and termies are fat guys in armour. Nuf said.

The problem is though that when they describe Kroot as being finger licking good, does that mean the kroot themselves are quite tasty or that they are quite fastidious about cleaning themselves having just eaten whatever they have most recently fought against? Who knows? Who dares to dream?

Shangrila
16-01-2009, 20:42
This scenarios stacked. if its 5 termies vs 20 kroot with a shaper maybe; but ive seen what happens there the kroot get owned.

Tanner MIrabel
16-01-2009, 21:15
I mourn for the state of maths here. Only two posters took issue with the faulty probability...

ReveredChaplainDrake
16-01-2009, 21:29
Actually, given even ideal scenarios, Kroot match up very well against Termies.
Kroot have bad Initiative. Termies have considerably worse.
Termies have Str8 CC attacks that ignore armor. Kroot wear no armor and are T3.
Shooty Termies are overpriced (IMHO). Kroot are not (IMHO).
Termies have 2+ armor. Kroot will likely have 3+ with cover (in woods).
Kroot charge through Woods and go at I3 instead of I1.
Kroot score. Termies don't.
Practically-speaking, Tau can deal with Terminators with other things than Kroot (like Battlesuits). Terminators with Storm Bolters are just about equally good against everything else Tau that isn't a tank.

However, Kroot match up considerably worse against Sternguard. *shudder* In fact, as everything has Frag Grenades, shooty Terminators are probably the Marine unit that matches up the absolute worst against them.


I mourn for the state of maths here. Only two posters took issue with the faulty probability...
Mathhammer is faulty anyway, to a degree, because it assumes an absolute vacuum. The only truly fair test of a unit is an actual game. Everything else is just a removed simulation.

djinn8
16-01-2009, 21:37
If you have an attack that has less than 100% chance of damaging an individual target, then usually no amount of such attacks combined can give you a 100% chance of damaging the target.

Yeah I know that, I was refering to lady averages rather than lady luck.

Whitehorn
16-01-2009, 21:42
5 Terminators shoot 25% of the Kroot and they flee.

QED

RevenantX
16-01-2009, 21:42
I have noticed a pretty significant pro-Kroot bias here, I'll chalk that up to the conservative Tau media gobbling up a lot of the local Kroot contracts.

But let's be honest, the only way Kroot match up well against (and by match up well I mean not get totally stomped out) Terminators is if you can get them into woods and even then only at certain ranges. But that's the whole point of the game, get your units into a position of power while attempting to deny your opponent the same.

catbarf
16-01-2009, 22:42
I mourn for the state of maths here. Only two posters took issue with the faulty probability...

I disagree strongly with the OP. The math is just wrong. You need to multiply together probabilities to get a final result. There's actually about a 75% chance that it will die, provided everything goes perfectly- which is not the point of mathhammer.


Mathhammer is faulty anyway, to a degree, because it assumes an absolute vacuum. The only truly fair test of a unit is an actual game. Everything else is just a removed simulation.

Mathhammer is a perfect representation of specific situations. You and the OP both commit the fallacy of assuming that it's intended to be a tactics engine that churns out victories.

Which is why this topic is pointless. You cannot empirically determine Kroot to be superior. If you wanted to point out that x number of Kroot firing have a y chance of killing a Terminator- great! That's what math can do, leaving you only the task of getting into that situation in combat.

But please, don't make sweeping generalizations like this. It's pointless, useless, and leads people to mistaken conclusions about how math works.

squeekenator
16-01-2009, 23:05
How about this:

Kroot deploy outside of cover because there isn't any. They go first to compensate. The Terminator deploys 36" away from them.

Turn 1, the Kroot move and run towards the Terminator. He moves so he is exactly 24" away from the closest Kroot and shoots. Each shot has a 44% chance to kill, two shots should cause a kill.
Turn 2, the Kroot move and run towards the Terminator. They're now all in range. The Terminator moves backwards and shoots, killing another. Half the Kroot are in range because of his move.
Turn 3, the Kroot move and run forwards again. The closest is around 15" away from the Terminator. He moves back, shoots, kills a third Kroot. They may run and all die, let's assume they don't.
Turn 4, the Kroot shoot. Three shots, each with a 4.something% chance to kill. It's going to take around 7 turns to kill the Terminator. He kills them while they pling off his armour save. He moves around the board to stop them from getting into rapid fire range, and if they run into range he can shoot and charge to finish them off.

take19
16-01-2009, 23:08
BS 4 it would hit on a 3+ and would on a 3+ so its more in favour of 2 dying I say.


MasterGideon


Sorry that was a typo, well if you rolling a dice 4 times the chances of it being under 3 once are quite high.

Tsear
16-01-2009, 23:23
You're adding your percentages using the wrong principles. Notice how you got over a 100% chance?

Probably a troll.

invinciblebug
16-01-2009, 23:33
You're adding your percentages using the wrong principles. Notice how you got over a 100% chance?

Probably a troll.

It's an average of 1.02 wounds, which can sometimes be mistaken for a 102% chance, which it most definitely is not.

D.B.
16-01-2009, 23:38
Mathhammer is a perfect representation of specific situations. ...If you wanted to point out that x number of Kroot firing have a y chance of killing a Terminator- great! That's what math can do, leaving you only the task of getting into that situation in combat.But please, don't make sweeping generalizations like this...
Quoted for truth. But yes, this thread is probably a trolling attempt.

aeon flux
17-01-2009, 00:57
IMHO, I don't believe your point proves that a terminator is inferior to kroot. I have a good one for you:

1 assault squad of blood angels gunns down a whole 5 man terminator CC squad across a river!
I only left the termie chappy leading them and then I jumped over the river into a comfortable close combat; I lost 1 marine and then - not surprisingly -proceeded to butcher the chaplain.

1 man against a squad has the odds against him; even if it's a marine against gretchin.
I once killed 2 chaos terminators from a S3 shotgun round. How's that for odds!?

Warforger
17-01-2009, 01:52
This like trying to compare a dreadnought to conscripts of equal points, sure the conscripts are more numerous, but they suck individually and don't do very well besides being meat shields.

Another example, comparing a 5 man Fire Dragon unit (no upgrades) against Guardsman of equal points, simply the Fire Dragons will get there asses handed to them, but are Fire Dragons supposed to go up against infantry?

Noserenda
17-01-2009, 04:27
Id agree this is generally stupid, and why would the Terminator even bother with the Power fist, he hardly needs it to kill T3 -save models.

Shangrila
17-01-2009, 04:38
IMHO, I don't believe your point proves that a terminator is inferior to kroot. I have a good one for you:

1 assault squad of blood angels gunns down a whole 5 man terminator CC squad across a river!
I only left the termie chappy leading them and then I jumped over the river into a comfortable close combat; I lost 1 marine and then - not surprisingly -proceeded to butcher the chaplain.

1 man against a squad has the odds against him; even if it's a marine against gretchin.
I once killed 2 chaos terminators from a S3 shotgun round. How's that for odds!?

Try a terminator chaplain charging a squad of guardsmen ina building and getting bayonetted to death, So does that make Guardsmen better then a termie chaplain? Absolutly not, since in almost any other situation the gaurdsmen would have been annihilated.

Malorian
17-01-2009, 14:12
Can't really remember the exact figures now but it worked out that around 180 lasgun shots had to be fired at a plague marine for a 100% chance of a kill.

Did he really just write that? Really? A small part of me just died inside...

T_55
17-01-2009, 14:33
Hehe...

I think its pretty funny actually.

You need 6 wounds to kill 1, so that means you need to get 36 hits. Which means you need 72 shots to kill 1 Plague Marine.

Incidentally my 3 point grots could do the same for cheaper! :p

==Me==
17-01-2009, 14:54
Posting in pointless thread.

MINI0N
17-01-2009, 15:11
Hehe...

I think its pretty funny actually.

You need 6 wounds to kill 1, so that means you need to get 36 hits. Which means you need 72 shots to kill 1 Plague Marine.

Incidentally my 3 point grots could do the same for cheaper! :p

ahh wrong sure, grots maybe 3 points a piece but u did not take into account the fact that grots hold a assault 1 wep while guard holds a rapid fire weapon ,at the range reguired for grots to hit some thing guard would receive 2 shots meaning it requires 2 grots to one guards men to aquire the same amount of shots. so one squad of ten guardsmen gets 20 shots at 12" for 60 pts, one squad of 20 grots gets 20 shots at 12" for 60pts +20 for the 2 herders.

and to OP there is no point in mathhammer as it only lends to an improbable situation that does not take into account the shear and uter force of luck, which in 40k is always your 2nd apponent or 2nd partner.

stroller
17-01-2009, 15:18
This thread reminds me of an old car advertisement which went along the lines of "a Citroen 2CV going flat out at 72.5mph can EASILY overtake a 3 litre Jaguar doing 69 mph..." and for similar reasons. Clearly the terminator is better given the slightest common sense. Oh hang on this is an online forum - scrub that last comment...

T_55
17-01-2009, 15:25
ahh wrong sure, grots maybe 3 points a piece but u did not take into account the fact that grots hold a assault 1 wep while guard holds a rapid fire weapon ,at the range reguired for grots to hit some thing guard would receive 2 shots meaning it requires 2 grots to one guards men to aquire the same amount of shots. so one squad of ten guardsmen gets 20 shots at 12" for 60 pts, one squad of 20 grots gets 20 shots at 12" for 60pts +20 for the 2 herders.

and to OP there is no point in mathhammer as it only lends to an improbable situation that does not take into account the shear and uter force of luck, which in 40k is always your 2nd apponent or 2nd partner.

Geese, talk about pedantic. :rolleyes: Didn't you forget to include the herder shooting then? :p

But i'm going off topic, in which case i'll just agree with most other's statements. ;)

MINI0N
17-01-2009, 15:31
yes i did i apologies. thats an additional 2 shot for the grots good catch sir.

Atomic Rooster
17-01-2009, 16:25
Measuring Termies vs kroot like that is like comparing Striking Scorpions vs Banshees in a shooting fight.

Both Termies and kroot as assault units. Kroot will never win an assault against anybody. It's never happened. Ever. Kroot ftl. QED.

AngryAngel
17-01-2009, 16:59
Hey hey hey lets calm down now on the Kroot. Kroot are fine and I even appreciate their abilities. Do I think they are better then Terminators ? Hell no I don't. I think termies are far more versatile, surviveable and lay out more reliable firepower.

However kroot can be a bit more tricky to deal with, they can infiltrate, get 3up saves in forests and a shed load of attacks for a relatively cheap pt cost. ( well cheap to me anyways ) Pretty good stats for their role in the army as well. Not to mention outflank, an outflanking squad of 20 kroot will put a pretty hurting on isolated firesupport squads.

Their roles are hugely diffrent in their armies. Yes they both can assault, however a sb pf termies place is not always in assault. In fact as most termie heavy lists ( Deathwing ) tell you, your better letting them fire for a good long while. Only getting into CC on their terms, when it best suits their loadouts.

Kroot won't have the same impact on an enemy line that say the 5 strong term squad will. Termies are support, linebreaker, hole puncher units. Kroot are somewhat competent CC, sneaky ambushers that especially excell at being in woods. They can hold or take an assault to allow a more expensive fire warrior unit to escape intact. Or they can finish off units weakend by strong Tau shooting.

They are also less prone to being swamped by large expendable units, like conscripts as they have the attacks, WS and Str to eat through them.

I know, I know alot of stuff for a pointless thread. But I had the free time so I typed it. Btw, Where is Krootman ? Shouldn't our resident debating Kroot chime in on this topic ?

Melta Pants
17-01-2009, 17:18
Terminators are an extremely flexible unit, if a bit pricey. Excellent armor save, an invulnerable save, excellent anti-infantry assault weapon with high range that allows them greater maneuverability, a CC weapon that is good at cracking tough targets (even though it's a handicap against dedicated assaulters), and the ability to Deep Strike allowing them to be positioned more effectively and help contest objectives and/or lend fire support where needed.

They aren't really designed for ousting dug-in infantry, though their stormbolters do allow them to (in these closed-vacuum examples) stay at maximum range and still fire at maximum effectiveness, while the lesser-armed kroot can only fire a single shot a piece. A well-placed teleport homer and heavy flamer would also do wonders, even against dug-in infantry. Again, Terminators are a very flexible unit. Kroot are an odd comparison, as they are meant to fulfill a completely different role on the battlefield, that being a cheap infantry choice that revels in difficult terrain and is capable in assault.

Havock
17-01-2009, 19:40
Two shot's, both needing a 4+ and a 3+, i'd say that one would more often than not miss...

3+/3+, to be exactly.

Ravening Wh0re
18-01-2009, 01:53
The situation changes when that Terminator deepstrikes with a Heavy Flamer....

aeon flux
28-01-2009, 21:16
Measuring Termies vs kroot like that is like comparing Striking Scorpions vs Banshees in a shooting fight.

Both Termies and kroot as assault units. Kroot will never win an assault against anybody. It's never happened. Ever. Kroot ftl. QED.


don't look now, but I've killed a necron lord with a small unit of 6 kroot. luck has these things.
point for point, absolutely - terminators are better than kroot; necron lords are better than kroot.
but proving chance and mathhammer wrong is the beauty of warhammer.
would there be any point in playing the game if the best troops always won?

it's not what you play, it's how you play it!

TheOneWithNoName
28-01-2009, 21:41
OP should feel bad for starting this thread.

maelstrom66669
01-02-2009, 22:12
I dont play loyalist, but I do use a unit of chaos terminators(champions, w/icon of khorne). I think it would have been laughable to see the kroot in the last game get anywhere near them. Sadly, the defiler tore most of their heads off before the termies got close...

Nostro
01-02-2009, 22:51
Pointless comparison, unlikely situation, faulty maths.

Do not feed the troll. :rolleyes:

Glabro
02-02-2009, 00:31
I'm not keen on statistics like this. I worked out a similer senerio the other day with lasgun toting guard and plague marines. Can't really remember the exact figures now but it worked out that around 180 lasgun shots had to be fired at a plague marine for a 100% chance of a kill. Then in the game I played a day or two after, a squad with one plasmagun, killed a 7 man strong Havoc squad in cover with only two turns of fire. Ok, they're not plague marines, but it still should have taken 550 shots or so, not the 30 it actually took.

You're really pulling numbers out of your hat there. 550 shots? Try 100 shots, including 10 plasma shots, in that scenario. Still, if you did it in 30, that was some good shootin'.

And by the way, statistics don't give you a 100% chance of something happening. They give you the EXPECTED result, something that happens "on average" (to use layman's terms). For example, if you roll 6 normal dice, you expect one of a given number to appear, but it's nowhere near 100%, it's just the most likely scenario.

As for the OP, your whole concept is flawed. Terminators were NEVER good at exchanging blows with numerous, determined foes. That's what the power armoured marines are for.

Each dead terminator denies the marine player a model worth 40 points. Each dead marine denies 15/16. Terminators are twice as hard to kill with conventional weaponry than marines, but are a lot more susceptible to weapons that are capable of penetrating armour. On the other hand, terminators are nearly impervious to some weapons which are the bane of normal marines (AP3), but these are not that numerous and can usually be employed against targets other than the terminators. You do the math.

Angelus Mortis
02-02-2009, 11:58
If you add up all the chances of it dying:

17+51+25+17
=102%



Heres a flaw in your math. Why would you add them up as they dont accumulate. You could average it which comes out to 27.5%, but that wouldnt be accurate either IMHO. The most accurate way to say it is if they dont kill him at the 51% mark, most likely hes going to kill all of them.

I say lets try the same scenario vs. a 5 man Terminator squad with Lightning Claws against equal point value of Kroot. Then try it against a 5 man Squad w/Heavy Flamer. I bet you have totally different results.

Basically, the entire premise of your argument is totally flawed, as you are cherry picking your points. For one, terminators dont come in one man squads and Kroot dont come in 5 man squads (at least I'm pretty sure they dont). You put 5:1 odds vs. a Terminator stripped of basic gear picks that would make a huge difference in the outcome (lightning claws, TH w/SH, Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers (put them in the woods all you want with this). Its like saying Pee Wee Herman is a better fighter than Mike Tyson then saying, well, if theres 10 Pee Wees and Mike Tyson is strapped to a chair and in a coma. Well, no duh. Try it using them they way they are supposed to and you will find that Kroot = Terminator Chow. I will put a 5 man Termie Squad up against a max size Kroot squad and smear them 90% of the time.

So in closing, I totally reject your conclusion. And laugh it at it too. :p (in a jesting manner).

Marlow
02-02-2009, 12:41
I am board so let’s scale it up…
Deployment: 5 Terminators w/ CML Deep strike Reserve
30 Kroot begin 30” from Marine Objective.
Turn One: Kroot run across the battlefield toward Marine Objective get 9”
Turn Two: Kroot run managing a total of 10”
Turn Two: Terminators fail reserve roll
Turn Three: Kroot run but are tired so only get 7” now being 4” from Objective
Turn Three: Terminators make reserve roll. Deep Strike 20” behind Kroot and five Kroot die to incoming fire.
Turn Four: Kroot run at Terminators get 12”
Turn Four: Terminators advance killing another five and assault. Kroot get lucky one Terminator and six Kroot die. Kroot roll snake eyes for morale and hang on.
Turn Five: Melee continues with four more Kroot killed, they break and run.
Turn Five: Terminators chase Kroot killing another five and finishing them off in assault…

spaint2k
02-02-2009, 13:18
If you add up all the chances of it dying:

17+51+25+17
=102%

Heres a flaw in your math. Why would you add them up as they dont accumulate. You could average it which comes out to 27.5%, but that wouldnt be accurate either IMHO. The most accurate way to say it is if they dont kill him at the 51% mark, most likely hes going to kill all of them.


Wrong again.

Isn't anybody going to correct him/them? Or are we all going to stand here showing our superiority while MASS ignorance goes unchallenged.

You need to take the chances of the terminator living and MULTIPLY them:

0.83*0.49*0.75*0.83=0.25

Which means your terminator has a 25% chance of still being alive after whatever you put him through for the sake of your argument.

I'm not a statistician, and I find the field awfully confusing, but if I'm wrong I'll gladly eat my smartass hat right here for the delectation of all.


I am board so let’s scale it up…

Dude... For Christ's sake... You are "board"?

Steve

Laser guided fanatic
02-02-2009, 13:56
I love it when people use mathhammer then end up with a result in their favour why doesn't GW just teach people maths then the world would be a happier place.

Taking bets on how long it will be before the epic fail pictures start coming in.

narrativium
02-02-2009, 15:47
Wrong again.

Isn't anybody going to correct him/them? Or are we all going to stand here showing our superiority while MASS ignorance goes unchallenged.

You need to take the chances of the terminator living and MULTIPLY them:

0.83*0.49*0.75*0.83=0.25

Which means your terminator has a 25% chance of still being alive after whatever you put him through for the sake of your argument.

I'm not a statistician, and I find the field awfully confusing, but if I'm wrong I'll gladly eat my smartass hat right here for the delectation of all.
Your smartass hat is fine.

Accepting for a moment the flawed principle that the original statistics do actually mean a 17%, 51%, 25% and 17% probability of being killed each time - and I know that those probabilities are rounded-off estimates and not the actual probabilities involved - then this is correct. In the initial 17% volley, if he's dead he's dead, if he's not he's in the 83% which has to face the 51% test. The survivor will be in the 25% who pass all four challenges. Essentially you've put the whole First Company through these challenges and split the survivors up by the numbers.

The original statistics are still flawed. When the Terminator fires, you get two shots, 2/3 chance of hitting, 2/3 of wounding, 2/3 of failing a save. Multiply to kill: each shot has a statistical 8/27 chance of killing a Kroot. Multiply to see if they all succeed: That's a 64/729 (8.7%) chance of killing two Kroot; multiply the reverse to see if they all fail: 361/729 (49.5%) chance of killing neither; subtract these from 1 and 304/729 (41.7%) chance of killing just one.

Let's not spoil this by using percentages when they're wrong. These aren't probabilities out of a hundred.

So, for Kroot turn 1 we have eight, ten or twelve shots firing at the Terminator. Each one has a 3/6 times 3/6 times 1/6 chance of a kill - 1/24 chance. Given there's only one Terminator, the chance of him surviving all those shots is 1 minus the probability of them all failing - it's surprisingly dismal, at (23/24)^12 with 6% chance of surviving, and (23/24)^8 with 7%. (Not exact probabilities, but my calculator struggles to give exact figures at those magnitudes).

Important to realise that each shot ought to fail. Having a certainty of winning the lottery should require you to buy millions of tickets, but it costs far less than half of that amount to achieve a 50% probability of doing so.

Your Terminator is much more dead than thought at first. But this result still relies on a number of things.

First, that you've got a 42 point battle on your hands. Normally the Terminator would have friends, but that's okay because you'd have five times as many Kroot units to shoot them with.

Second, even then, that when the Terminator cannot be closer than 18" away, all four Kroot managed to move within 12" of him, something that only one of them should have managed to do if the Tau player wasn't cheating (it's a game played in at least two dimensions, not one).

Third, that the Terminator didn't do the sensible thing and stay where he was or back off, staying out of range of the enemy so he couldn't be shot at.

Angelus Mortis
02-02-2009, 15:59
Thanks for saving me the typing narrtivium. Also, lol at the smartass hat. That was pretty good too.

spaint2k
02-02-2009, 16:02
I hereby proclaim narrativium winner of the thread. Thank you for an illuminating post.

Cheers,
Steve

madd0ct0r
02-02-2009, 19:49
First, that you've got a 42 point battle on your hands. Normally the Terminator would have friends, but that's okay because you'd have five times as many Kroot units to shoot them with.



Part of me wants to quibble over not including the ass cannon, but that would result in more kroot/ upgrades too.

Besides, as you mentioned, the other factors make this situation impossible under the rules of the game so it's moot.
An exceptional post.

Misfratz
02-02-2009, 20:28
Apologies for not reading all the pages of denunciation of the initiator of this post. I believe the first page was enough.

Generally speaking, I'm not entirely in favour of this sort of Mathhammer approach for attempting to "prove" such things, and it is true that much of the Maths is dodgy. [Lots of people don't understand how probabilities combine. It's nothing to be ashamed of]

Nevertheless, I applaud the fellow for his attempts to boost the standing of our much maligned cute-Kroot brethren, who are unfairly looked down upon in the world of blasters and mangling fists.

I've always felt that the "more terrain the better the game", and it is in such situations that I would expect our brother Kroot to prove their worth to the collective. Also, they will help buy time for a tactical retreat to be arranged...

Johnnyfrej
02-02-2009, 20:39
Take 1 Terminator (Loyalist) Equiped with a Storm Bolter and Powerfist. Now take 6 kroot without the armour save upgrade, rules here
What if he has a PW or Lightning Claws?

Laser guided fanatic
02-02-2009, 21:33
And also why is the OP using a non-official codex, i could just make up my own codex in which grotz are 1 pt each but have WS 10 BS 10 S10 T10 W10 I10 A10 Ld 10 Save 2+2+ /w FNP

I'm sure then they'd be better then terminators but using normal rules it is hard to come to a conclusion for reasons previously stated.