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mossel
16-01-2009, 20:23
in 2 weeks, I'll be playing in a tournament with this army:

Dreadlord (1+ armour save, inversed ward save, GW with armour piercing)

Sorceress (level 2, 2 dispel scrolls)

Sorceress (level 2, extra dispel die)

20 spearmen (shields, full command)

20 spearmen (shields, full command)

5 dark riders (xbows)

5 dark riders (xbows)

5 harpies

5 harpies

15 black guard (full command, ASFbanner, ring that causes any casting from within or into a 12" radius bubble to miscast on any double)

cold one chariot

cold one chariot

3 RBTs


what would you (or any opponent) do with your (his) 2K army against this list?

I know it's difficult to say what you'd do, as it will depend on scenery,deployment... but I'd like to know what most tactics would be against this list, roughly...

so please, destroy my army in this thread :)

GuyLeCheval
16-01-2009, 20:33
This list is fairly cool as it is balanced. But that'll be your main problem. In tournaments you will encounter the most unbalanced lists ever (deeeeaaaamooonns) who will take you out quickly, especially if you have some bad luck...

As tacticts:
Skaven: Warp-lighting spam, censor bearers forcing you to do T tests. Plague spell. Burning you main units to ashes with my warp-fire thrower. Cissoring through your units with frenzy-hatred plague monks, attacking en masse with clanrats...

Bretts: Take out boltthrowers with mounted yeoman, take out your spearman with KotR an KE, combing charges against your Black guard...

Stuffburger
16-01-2009, 20:39
Well, since I play O&G, what I would do against this army is lose.

Bitching aside though, it looks well balanced enough to me to prevent any one tactic from winning against it every time. I personally would play a denied flank tactic of some sort to try to take advantage of your only really hitty stuff being the two chariots, lord and BG.

Mullitron
16-01-2009, 21:12
Big monsters, terror causing creatures. Ok the three bolt throwers can put alot of hurt on such creatures however iam sure your opponents will think of some method to deal with them. I like your list i just think that things like bloodthirsters/dragons will do alot of hurt to your list or at least draw enough attention to allow the rest of their army to hurt you. The uk grand tournament for example (as far as iam aware) allows special characters, i dont know what rules your playing with but what would you for example have to deal with malekith on a dragon? Ok its an extreme example but iam just suggesting him to make a point.

mossel
16-01-2009, 21:17
there are no special characters allowed in the tournament. just basic army book lists.

edit:
and I know large monsters, greater daemons, steam tanks... will pose a challenge for my army, but I feel I'm capable of dealing with them quite properly using magic and shooting.
the things I'd really hate to play against, are point denial type of lists (twin steam tanks and the like)
I think there will be mostly daemons, vampires, warriors of chaos, high elves and dark elves playing in the tournament, so bloodthirster (single bolts for the win), lots of magic, heavy hitters (single bolts vs chaos knights!), dragons and hydras will be all over the place... but I feel I can deal with them.

sroblin
16-01-2009, 21:20
I think that would be a very fun army to play against- nothing really in the way of power units, but between the chariots, the harpies, the fast cav, and the repeater bolt-throwers you have a lot of potential threats coming from different angles!

It's difficult to game against it without specifics, but here are some random thoughts off hand:
-versus the lord: i would simply make sure that I didn't allow any combat characters to get in a challenge with him. If in BtB, attacked nearby models. If you issued a challenge, I would accept with a champion.
-The Spearmen strike me as a weak point. Spearmen are great blocks for their price, but as they make up 2/3 of your frontline units, they are more likely to be forced in to tougher fights than an army with more elites in it. I guess I would shave off a point of rank bonus with some throw away shooting, point an uber unit their way (with character, or multiple attacks) and try to steamroll through them in a turn. I assume the chariots are there to team up with the spearmen (great strategy!), but if they get broken in one turn, then the chariot may not be in position to pull off a flank charge.
-I would probably target the support units which are less likely to be in the 12" anti-magic bubble, and are the real threat in the army list. The blocks are good with CR but don't really win battles on their own (the blackguard can beat weaker blocks on their own, but against tougher enemies they will still need backup), so the Dark Riders and Chariots are what are most likely to tip a combat against me, while the harpies and RBTs pose the biggest threats to my own ranged assets. The sorcerers help out with both, so I will eventually want to charge their bunkers, though...

Additionally, I would personally lean in favor of taking at least one or two arcane items to enhance your own magic phase (beefing up your ranged offense is still desirable given the low number of powerful melee units), though I understand that those extra dispel scrolls can really make a difference versus magic-heavy armies so it's more than fair to have different tastes here.

Looks like a good list that will depend on unit coordination, flanking, and defensive stance for the win, though.

r019nd
16-01-2009, 21:34
Generally i play fast combat armies like tomb kings, beasts or dark elves, with some magic.

I would try to take this army apart piece meal. You're sorceresses are going to have to be 12 inches from the black guard to gain their points back so i gues that they are going to be in the spearmen for protection giving a split block of infantry troops. So assuming that you're harpies and dark riders try to disrupt my line it shouldn't be too hard to take one or 2 units a turn as i advanced to your line. Obviously the blot throwers are going to do damage but without a nice block of x-bow men i would hope to out number a unit i hit in combat and look to break each unit in one turn, to prevent the chariot counter charges.

.. leaving the black guard to the last turn if i needed to hit them

W0lf
16-01-2009, 21:56
Ignore the black guard, unless i had something i knew would rape them.
Try to remove bolt throwers.
Take easy VPs from spears + sorcs.

Wapniak
16-01-2009, 23:32
Blast you with Magicks and 'Fleshound' you to death. Other than that... Charge the Chariots with Furies and try to break them. I like this list, but the Lord could use a mount. A Dark one propably.

W0lf
16-01-2009, 23:41
Its a pretty tame list.

MY DE tourny list has;

Hydra banner cold ones
full black guard + dreadlord unit
2x hydra

thats more threats id say..

Kalec
17-01-2009, 08:20
Empire: shoot your dark riders and harpies with missile troops, cannon the bolt throwers and chariots, march-block the spearmen and blackguard with pistoliers, and grind the BG down with magic while swordies hold off the spearmen. The lord isn't particularly dangerous, and I will be avoiding the BG in cc anyway, so he doesn't worry me. Four magic levels, even in DE, aren't a whole lot against a pair of mages, a priest, and a lector on the alter.

Warriors of Chaos: flickering fire and buboes spam to take out the BG champ, the riders, and the harpies whiles horsemen go for the bolt throwers, warhounds marchblock the spearmen and DOgres and Knights bash the chariots before moving on to the infantry. I can field quite a bit more magic that isn't all that affected by the ring, and my mages are rather durable in combat as well.

The list needs more punch. The lord can tie up nearly any other all day long, but won't be killing much. Spearmen blocks are good, but need support that stupid chariots aren't reliable enough to provide. The reapers are deadly, but you don't have the ranged offense to afford to sit back, and don't have the blocks to spare to protect them. Get more shooting and magic, or more combat power. You have a balance of both that hurts more then it helps.

mossel
17-01-2009, 11:12
thx for all the replies allready! I'm going to play with a friends army against it, to see/feel how it is to face the list. of course, the general of my army won't be used to playing with it, but at least I'll have seen my army work from another perspective.

Frankly
17-01-2009, 12:10
5 dark riders (xbows)

5 dark riders (xbows)

5 harpies

5 harpies

3 RBTs





It's how you play these units that will make or break your list against alot of other armies.

I can't see any huge threats in your list, so controlling the board is all important.

I like the list though. Its cool because its flexible in the fact that you to play both defensive by sitting back on the edge of the board with your RBTs(supported with x.bows) and pick off points or be more agressive and push ford with chariots/BG/ etc, etc and throw some nice combat dice with hatred. It just comes down to how well you can control your opponents with 4 support units and RBTs

I'll post how I'd beat it(well try too) in a second ... got to rolls some dice.



Here's what I'm working on to run at a tournament in 2 weeks.

Lord/dreadlance/2 x P.Stone/F.Lore/M.o.t.b.Arts/steed

Vampire/balefire lance/red fury/steed/book of arkhan

Vampire/F.lore/summon creature of the night/2 x P.stone

Necro/2 x P.Stone /steed


6 x Dire wolves
6 x Dire wolves
6 x Dire wolves
6 x Dire wolves
6 x Dire wolves
6 x Dire wolves
6 x Dire wolves

20 x zombies
20 x zombies
20 x zombies

5 x B.knights/FC/B.o.t.Dead Legion
5 x B.knights/FC/B.o.Strigos
5 x B.knights/FC/banner of hellfire

Basically its a top heavy gimmick list that's able to cast Vachel's Danse Macabre 8 times in the turn that I decide is the key turn for charges.

Against your list I've got the D.wolves support to target and/or block LOS from RBTs while having the ability to magic phase move out of from behind them for charges.

While Lord + B.K.s with the dead legion banner and the thrall with bale fire lance/redfury/hatred are good at breaking your spearmen units with combat CR not static CR, although the thrall is there more to tackle regeneration point denial units like plague bearers and blood knights .... while being able to deal with ethereal unit and hydras just as well.

So I'd most likely hit soft targets/spearmen unit/chartiots/RBTs, grab some points and see if I need to turn on the BG.

that all depends on how well you deal with my dire wolf unit delivery system and what you target with your RBTs offcourse.

dragonlancr
17-01-2009, 18:50
Well, I am a firm believer that fun is always more important than winning, so the list I am about tell you ... I would only ever play in a tournament. In a tournament you really have to become a product of the environment. After all, the whole purpose of a tournament is to win.

I would take Runelord with Anvil (Most tourneys allow special characters so if that were the case I typically take Thorek.) Runelord with Anvil works too. :)

1 Dragonslayer
1 Dragonslayer

12 Quarrelers
12 Thunderers
10 Quarreler Scouts

2X Gyrocopter

4 Bolt Throwers w/ various runes

20 Warriors
Shield
Command

20 Warriors
Shield
Command

...

I would probably get my 2 Gyro's and the scouts around your RBT's while positioning the Gyros to prevent marching. On top of that, I would use my Runelord to prevent the harpies from flying if not killing them outright. So essentially, you army will move at half speed for most of the game and your flyers won't fly.

Then you walk at about the gun line the whole game, only to be tied up by two 50 point slayers and cheap T4 warriors.

I've won with the list a few times. :)

w3rm
18-01-2009, 02:41
Start pounding the crap out of you with chukkas, doom divers, and rock lobbas. Failing that I would proceed to pound your T3 elves with black orcs, savage orc boar boyz, and trolls. Den I would git real mean!

Jericho
18-01-2009, 04:20
Well I have my beloved Puppet to keep me protected for the most part, so my plan with my Tzeentch/Slaanesh WOC army would be to magic missile your flankers/march blockers meanwhile I'd be paying some limited attention to the dude with the Ring. 2-dicing Magnificent Buboes should take care of him by turn 2, at which point the fun begins.

Hopefully my magic and Hellcannon can compete with your magic/shooting. It would definitely be a pretty fair fight I think, since I try to build balanced/fluffy armies as well. If your disruption tactics hamper me enough it's game over, since Warriors of Chaos can't compete with flyers and fast cav with real shooting. Magic missiles are pretty much the only way to deal with the suckers.

You have a balanced list, and one which uses Dark Riders and Harpies the way they are supposed to be used I think. It's a tournament-friendly army that will get you solid comp scores and if you can manage the flyers/fast cav well then you will exponentially increase the effectiveness of your other units.

Good luck!

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 04:30
Dreadlord (1+ armour save, inversed ward save, GW with armour piercing)

Sorceress (level 2, 2 dispel scrolls)

Sorceress (level 2, extra dispel die)

20 spearmen (shields, full command)

20 spearmen (shields, full command)

5 dark riders (xbows)

5 dark riders (xbows)

5 harpies

5 harpies

15 black guard (full command, ASFbanner, ring that causes any casting from within or into a 12" radius bubble to miscast on any double)

cold one chariot

cold one chariot

3 RBTs


Well, it's not the most optimized Dark Elf list. No Hydra, medium magic, foot slogging general.

With my list I would aim my Hellcannon at the Black Guard, try take out a Sorceress with magic quickly, and then turn my attention to the Harpies. I would send my Disk mounted Exalted after the Dark Riders or the Chariot (him being S7 and all). The RBTs would be a worry, but I could whether them if I thread carefully for a turn or two.

Still, that's a lot of priority targets, I would say you are going to do well with this list.

Frankly
18-01-2009, 17:08
I would take Runelord with Anvil (Most tourneys allow special characters so if that were the case I typically take Thorek.) Runelord with Anvil works too. :)

1 Dragonslayer
1 Dragonslayer



Then you walk at about the gun line the whole game, only to be tied up by two 50 point slayers and cheap T4 warriors.



I've always wondered about the combo. An ASF slayer + anvil.

Minus67
19-01-2009, 01:44
You have 3 models that can hurt cairn wraiths and nothing to deal with the inevetiable unit with the drakenhoff banner.

Once the cairn wraiths are in combat with any of the ranked unit (which they will be thanks to magic) you have one model in your army that can hurt them.

You have to rely on your magic to stop them, and with only two level 2's you will be in a bad spot to try to kill more than 3 wraiths.

A big unit of Dire wolves with characers(with regen banner) or black knights ( with regen) could be a big problem for you. You have one anvil type unit who could easily lose half their number in the first round of combat.

Guy Fawkes
19-01-2009, 03:58
When you are playing an army you need to ask yourself if you can deal with these powerful, unbalanced threats that manifest themselves at tournaments:


A list made up of a Lord on Dragon, Hero on lesser monster, and multiple large monsters (eg. Dragon Dreadlord, Manticore Master, and 2x Hydras or Karl Franz and 2x Steam Tanks)
An all mounted list, packing lots of powerful Knights with 1+ AS and lots of kills with some fast cavalry as backup
A 12+ power dice magic army
An endless horde army
A pure gunline
Ethereals
A list that actively tries to deny you points (eg. Wood Elves that constantly run away and elude you)
A flying circus army with lots of fast fliers, skirmishers, characters that fly, or evasive units (like Miners, Ethereals, etc...)


You need to have an answer for all of these threats.

Against your list, there are some problems as I see it.

First, I would take a few shots at your Spearmen units. A single kill or two (depending on if they have characters in them) will remove your rank bonus. It won't be hard to bring them down a bit because they are T3 and 5+ AS against shooting. That is a 3+ kill against Handguns, the most commonly taken shooting weapon in the game. At 8 points each, a Handgunner is only slightly more expensive than an Elf with a shield (factoring in command, about the same price), and if you face 40 Handgunners against your 40 Spearmen, you will quickly be ground down. Dark Riders are similarly easy to kill with even basic shooting infantry, and easy enough to force panic checks on or at least take out their function (3 kills stops them from negating ranks, and with only 1 or 2 casualties they will have trouble reliably crippling even weak support units.

The Cold One Chariots are powerful but will either have to zoom ahead of the army unsupported (although Chariots aren't that much faster than Dark Elf infantry, their extra charge range makes charging a turn early tempting) or suffer an extra turn of punishing shooting if they want to make a joint charge (although anything taking a charge from 2 CO chariots or a chariot and a Spearelf unit will break). They are very vulnerable to Stone Throwers (if the hole lands on them), Cannons, Bolt Throwers (especially Dwarf, but 4 or 5 Goblin Bolt Throwers can kill Chariots quickly), powerful characters with lances or great weapons (Blood Knights, Chaos Characters, etc... are fast enough to catch them, especially with some magical movement). If the chariots are charged by anything, including weak fast cavalry, they lose a lot of their power (although the CO chariot has more combat potential than most when charged). With the number of Van Hel's, flying units, etc... this is a very real possibility. A chariot will never free itself in time to turn the tide of battle. Almost every character sports either a Great Weapon or Lance nowadays, and magical weapons are as potent as ever. Even Hero Level Vampires can fly 20" to deliver a few Great Weapon attacks at S7. If just one gets through, you lose.

Your magic defense is very powerful, but don't expect much in the way of offense. 6 power dice, even with Power of Darkness, is not enough to get more than 1 or 2 spells off a turn. Throw in some dispel scrolls or armies where many characters are Wizards (Vampires, Daemons, Lizardmen) and you might not get any magic through. You either need the Dagger (which will require more Spearelfs and giving up some magic defense), or another Sorceress (which is expensive). The Ring of Hotek can also hamper you if you want your units inside of its radius for protection and your Sorceresses inside of units for protection as well. That being said, 2 dispel scrolls, 5 dispel dice, and the Ring will be sufficient for a lot of magic. The dice stop IoN spam nicely and help against Tomb Kings and Ogres or Warrior Priest prayers, etc... The scrolls save you against the devastating spells, and the Ring shields you from magic missiles and indeed most magic when you get close around the third turn.

The Black Guard are a little light in numbers and are again vulnerable to shooting. Besides your Dreadlord (who alone won't achieve much) and your two Chariots, this unit is the only unit that can reliably generate kills. Admittedly they probably won't need their rank bonus to win combats, especially with a unison charge from the Dark Riders or a Chariot, but they are very easy to destroy with concentrated firepower. They are also expensive and your only "tarpit" unit, if the need arises (they kill efficiently and are stubborn). Your magic defense relies on them, so you must be careful.

The Harpies are very annoying and very useful. They won't win protracted combats, but the only things you have to worry about are other skirmishers (who with their 360 degree line of sight will charge you) and things that either have a whole lot of shots (Hellblasters) or things that auto-hit (many template weapons, some magic items, especially magic missiles). They are the only thing in your list that can really interrupt enemy shooting, so I'd be careful how you handle them. They can't really rely on charging until turn 2, so you can count on taking at least one turn of shooting, and often two turns (although you will deploy first against most armies).

The RBTs are your only shooting. With 3, you will do excellent against Dragons, Hydras, Giants, and other annoying things. You also have an excellent chance against Knights. However, RBTs can be blocked from having LoS, and this can be very likely. You only have 12 units and characters, so many lists will not have to deploy their important units until you have deployed most of yours. Your game plan will be open to your opponent and he can react to this in deployment. There are also "obvious spots" where RBTs will be deployed, like that hill in your deployment zone. Scouts and Fliers make quick work of all warmachines, and you can't afford to put anything back to defend them. Against a horde army, your RBTs won't make back their points very often (although RBTs are better than regular Bolt Throwers against masses of troops, 300 points is a lot to make back if you play against the Skaven Horde that hides characters in the back and holds back with detachment weapon teams until they are in combat). You must be prepared for the possibility that much of your army will be useless in some matchups.

How do you deal with Ethereals? You have one fighty character and two casters that, as aforementioned, will likely be blocked from casting their magic missiles if you target Ethereals. I think your hardest matchup will be a pure gunline. How would you fight this kind of list?


Arch Lector, Warrior Priest, Captain BSB, Battle Wizard Scroll Caddy

3x10 Handgunners
2x10 Crossbowmen
1x5 Pistoliers
1x5 Knights
1x25 Swordsmen with detachments

2xCannons
1xMortar
1xHellblaster/Steam Tank
1xHelstorm Rocket Battery/Steam Tank

This list can remove your Chariots by turn 2, decimate your Spearelfs and Black Guard before they get to combat, handle your magic, and try to lob a mortar shell at the RBTs in the last turns of the game to try to get your crew.

Another big threat is a list that actively tries to deny you points. This is a hard army for most people to prepare to fight, but I have seen lists that have 2 or 3 Spirit Host units, lots of Zombies, some Cairn Wraiths, and some Flying Vampires. It is very hard to beat a list that tarpits your best units (they can still try IoN on one die, and enough Zombies don't even need to be rezzed) and tries to hide from you. The Vampires will solo charge and kill RBTs and the Spirit Hosts or Cairn Wraiths can charge and overwhelm Chariots or Spearelf units. You are also dealing with a lot of fear tests. What about a list that hides in terrain, tries to capture objectives, and kill enough points to eke out a minor victory?

Your list isn't very streamlined because it doesn't have a clear direction in battle plan. Remember, even though Dark Elves are merciless on the charge, they are a pushover if they start getting hit, and your army is incredibly vulnerable to all shooting. Only the Black Guard (because of ASF) are resilient in close combat, but everything else can be beaten by the uber units other armies possess.

Good luck in any case, but I think you'll need more fine tuning before you are ready to beat other ultra-competitive lists.