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Col. Tartleton
16-01-2009, 21:15
I hate ogres. They're pretty much really big cannibalistic Asians.

I like the list and all that, but I'm not sold by the ogres. I was considering a future project of an orc fantansy (or 40k but I'm now leaning fantasy) army.

I don't like mixed looking armies. Orcs are varied but still have the uniting force of "Green's Da Best."

You've your snots, your grots, gobs, nobs, your boys, big uns, blackies, bosses, and even bigger uns, savages, dirty stinking squigs, trolls, and other assorted ruffians and brutes, rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, ****-kickers and Methodists.:rolleyes:

But they're all orcs (well we all question what trolls are, but I lean towards them as being mutated orks rather then men.)

Now the concept of Gnoblars, the gobbos that gobbos give crap to, is a nice addition to this orcish horde. This leads to the problem of "what about the big nasty fellows who look like bloated Down Syndrome babies"

My thought is count as. Using really big orks modded into a sort of death cult of Bork (the Great Maw of the orcs ;)) I'd be able to use the gut magic without needing to count as Waagh, and add an interesting accent in terms of weapons and tactics. I mean the count as Bulls ie. "Weely Big Uns" would fully deserve the bonuses that a Bull Charge would imbue. After all, these are uber orcs from the trollshaws and are gonna be more than a match for any enemy.

Thoughts and suggestions?

Condottiere
16-01-2009, 21:23
Mutant Orcs on 40mm bases?

Frep
16-01-2009, 21:29
As long as your Orcs are big enough I'd have no problem with it, but what would you use to get the size, even the warboss isn't big enough for an ogre bull much less a tyrant. (To be honest long as the bases were big enough I wouldn't mind if you used snotlings, which would be frankly hilarious)

Col. Tartleton
16-01-2009, 21:30
Pretty much

I'd rather not think of them as mutants as much as the natural selection of the orc genetics at work.

Pretty much black orcs to black orcs. Which means literally blackish green skin. Then all daubed out with woad or something and blood dripping from flesh trophies. Plus exotic weapons and such.

Yeah, I haven't really thought of what to use for models yet. I thought Ogryns, but that would take a lot of converting of metal.

guillaume
16-01-2009, 21:31
As far as insipiration and models, you can use the Trollblood models from Hordes Warmachine.

http://privateerpress.com/HORDES/default.php?x=world/trollbloods

I believe they are bigger than your average orc, and might be ogre size. But dont quote me on this.

W0lf
16-01-2009, 22:08
This leads to the problem of "what about the big nasty fellows who look like bloated Down Syndrome babies"

:wtf:


Also this is a weird concept. Why not just use ogres as ogres and orcs as orcs? Do you hate the orc N gobbo list?

Necrotyr18
16-01-2009, 22:55
If you are good at modeling, lord knows I'm not, then you may want to put 3 or 4 orcs together to make one man. I don't mean have an orc with four arms, I mean like an orc on the bottom as the legs and then two as arms and then one as the head. All piled together as one.

Col. Tartleton
16-01-2009, 23:01
NOooo, not at all, I wanted to be different and to have an interesting alt army to Orks. I mean eventually, say I build up to the point I have a big orc horde with loads of gobbos and trolls, and all those cats, then for a side force of maybe a 1-2.5k allied Ogres (whom I see as the only race that'd ally with the green skins) however since I think that ogre models are unpleasant (at least when fighting alongside greenies) that I could do a count as with more orkish things. Pretty much imagine the ork warbosses and such from 40k that are monstrous creatures in size, that's what I imagined, only in the fantasy realm. The Idea of a Tyrant counting as the biggest orc ever seen or something leading a horde out of the north is what I'm going for. A band of orcish juggernauts from a place where monsters roam is my idea.

Then attach a really big horde of gobbos and orcs and such to it.

Its for variation and being different, not for hatred of orcs or something.

Solasun
16-01-2009, 23:42
To be fair, I don't really see the Asian connection once the droopy mustache things are removed (or in my case simply painted the same as the skin tone) but each to their own.

How about green stuffing some Orks bigger, plasticard spacers too. Maybe even snip some of the Maneater/Tyrant models and convert them (you heathen, beautiful beautiful sculpts they are)

Col. Tartleton
17-01-2009, 00:12
Yeah I think I may convert some Ogres into my super orks. Its not that they're bad models per se, but I don't like their aesthetics. The "Giant Down Sydrome baby" thing was a joke. They're too fat looking and i don't like their heads much. But legs and arms will probably be used as well as gear from the bulls.

I'd just rather have orks then ogres. I'm also going to mod trolls into being more goblinoid. Its a visual idea rather than anything else. Its like using CSM under SM rules. Only without the intent of power gaming since neither army is particularly stand out good.

I was considering a similar idea for giants, though that's questionable.

As a real question though, where does the Gut magic come from?

Is it like the Waagh and come from the user, or is it from an actually "Maw" deity. This would determine whether they're actually paying tribute to a third entity besides Gork and Mork, or instead is it simply a manifestation of their waagh through alternative practices. Ultimately is the Maw a real being or the natural magics of Ogres?

TheDarkDuke
17-01-2009, 00:20
Just to set you straight. Ogre Kingdoms is based off of Mongolian culture not Asian culture, so the opening comment is drastically off.

Hmm you could do a Night Gobbo type army, Bulls are Trolls, Ironguts are Stone Trolls, gnoblars are night gobbos so on and so on. Or you could do Black Orcs as Ironguts, Boys as bulls. The hero slots are gonna be IMO a bit weird.

Solasun
17-01-2009, 00:20
Gut Magic's unique it's a mix of faith(read fear, Ogres are really afraid of the Maw), shamanism - fetishes, the raw power of the Maw and devouring specific parts - example Braingobbler involves the Butcher scooping out some fresh brains and devouring it before projecting the spell.

Da_Greeniest
17-01-2009, 00:26
I don't see what the problem is. I love Ogres because they ARE really big cannibalistic Asians.

SuperArchMegalon
17-01-2009, 00:49
I don't see what the problem is. I love Ogres because they ARE really big cannibalistic Asians.

Exactly. What isn't to like??

Really though, I think if you want to play Greenskins just play Greenskins. It would have to be some creative conversion work, that makes sense AND represents OGRES for me to really enjoy your army.

For example, take a look at Matt Cole's Podhammer Ogre army:
http://podhammer.net/category/painting/ogre-army-diary-painting/

Excellent modeling and unique ideas, but despite that I'd be miffed to play a game against it because it's completely unrepresentative of what it's supposed to be. I'd rather see an army of 40k Ogryns on square bases than Orcs cobbled together and modeled to be bigger.

Imagine how you'd feel to fight an opponent who regularly uses... Skaven models to represent... Chaos! Or Wood Elves to represent Dwarfs. Goblins to represent Bretonnia?

Col. Tartleton
17-01-2009, 01:24
Well I'd aim for wysiwyg and all that. I'm not going to just upscale an ork and call it a bull, its going to have warpaint, a gut plate random bits hanging off and a really big choppa and the other hand in a gauntlet. They're orks who have culturally become like Ogres. I think its an interesting modeling idea.

In concerning my idea, I'd like to know what the fuss is about. Whats so horrible about orcs falling under the spell of the Maw. They begin to revere and worship it after they fight against ogres who use its strength against them and begin seeing it as the lost 3rd ork god "Bork" that some legends spoke of. Then because of their worship they grew as orcs do when they become stronger. They reached sizes like that of the ogres of the mountains of Mourn. They'd have been black orks who had escaped from the chaos dwarves and found a new master in the north.

SuperArchMegalon
17-01-2009, 05:03
I've seen Ogres with Orc heads and other Orcish bits-and-bobs painted as Ogrish greenskins. They looked pretty cool - finally a greenskin with a proportionate head! You may want to try that.

Condottiere
17-01-2009, 05:16
How about borrowing some other Ogre-sized models, who have a slimmer silhouette, and coverting them to big orcs? Anything from the LotR range suitable?

Master Stark
17-01-2009, 05:23
Also this is a weird concept. Why not just use ogres as ogres and orcs as orcs? Do you hate the orc N gobbo list?

My thoughts exactly.

Master Stark
17-01-2009, 05:25
Just to set you straight. Ogre Kingdoms is based off of Mongolian culture not Asian culture, so the opening comment is drastically off.

:eyebrows:

Mongolians are asian...

Condottiere
17-01-2009, 05:46
I have the distinct impression that non-Mongolian Asians have a preference not to be associated with them.

Nephilim of Sin
17-01-2009, 06:13
Perhaps I have this wrong, so let me recap:

You want Ogres, but hate the models.

You like Orcs, but hate the rules.

So you want to use Orcs, with Ogre bitz, to represent Ogres because they have been influenced with them?

If that is the case, then yes, I can see it causing an issue, actually, even though I am one for themed armies. I myself use a lot of Ogre bitz in my Orc army I am painting right now, and I was even going to use dwarven shields as gutplates on my Big Un's because at some point they would have encountered Ogres, and it would look cool. Theming and converting is one thing, but there should be a certain level of plausibility to it.

Using even Black Orcs to try and represent Ogres calls into play a huge size issue, plus, honestly, it just does not make sense, not to mention the basing issue. Orcs would probably just see the great maw as an extension of one of their Gods as it is, and then there is the question of the Waaagh, and the fact that animosity would not just disappear. They wouldn't switch religions just because someone fights better than they do....otherwise in this edition they wouldn't have a god at all (couldn't resist). It would be the same as saying you would want your orcs to use the Dark Elf rules, or even the Vampire Counts rules (which would be wicked), just so you can use the rules you like to play your army. As for the size issue, it would be something similar to me saying that the one goblin model flippin' the bird is my Daemon Prince. Basically, if it causing too much confusion, and conflicts too much within the game, it might not be the best idea.

Urgat
17-01-2009, 08:38
I have the distinct impression that non-Mongolian Asians have a preference not to be associated with them.

Just like japanese don't want to be associated with china and vis versa. It's cultural stuff, it doesn't change the fact that Mongolias is in Asia. One can't reshape the world according to their wishes :p

Oh, and trolls are trolls, not mutated humans or orcs or whatever :/
Orcs. Not orks, orcs :p

Other than that, as long as you use the right bases, no I wouldn't care even if you used mountains of snots to represent ogres (that'd be pretty cool actually).

Dai-Mongar
17-01-2009, 09:11
I did a conversion using a chaos ogre and an Ork warboss head. Looks pretty cool.
Maybe you could track down some of the older ogre minis, like Golgfag's mercenary ogres?

Col. Tartleton
17-01-2009, 15:56
I've never said I don't like Orcs or their rules. I said its not like I'm cheating or something because OK and O&G are about equal in their success rate, neither is particularly game dominating. I believe I said that I intend to build an Orc and Goblin (I'm used to spelling it with a K due to 40k) force, and I was thinking of what could be a cool tie in side project. My thought was Ogre Kingdoms, because of the gnoblars and all that. However I'm not in love with Ogres working with orcs, and would rather use something else preferably orcoid, be it ogre inspired trolls or upscaled black orcs.

Orcs aren't the smartest creature, I think that a tribe of them may see the equally brutal and barbaric practices of the Great Maw as being a third entity of the orcs rather than some alien force. They could rationalize it as being "Bork the not so cunning as Mork or nearly as brutal as Gork, but hungry as starved rabid pack of wolves." Ok, that's silly, but a "Bork the Devourer" god may not be too unorcy since orcs do eat and drink a lot.

Orcs worship the strong, brutal, and cunning, and they may see a degree of orcish mentality in the Maw. So I doubt its too unlikely. I mean there are probably khornate orc cults and such.

And since the difference in stat line between trolls and ogres is only really a matter of ballistics which most won't use, some initiative which isn't too different, strength which is pretty variable, and leadership which are all explainable as being different due to the culture differences. Maybe the Maw gave them some brains or something.

Trolls would probably be the better for count as purposes though I'm still undecided.

Side note: What about a squiggoth using the rules for a chaos war mammoth with a Black Orc Big boss instead of the Aspiring Champion, and a bunch of boyz as marauders, since with the boss your buying a worse leader for more, and the boyz are equal to marauders if not worse. It could help continue the theme of northern orcs using a mammoth creature, and I could tie in the Ogres using the mammoth related wargear as squiggoth in nature instead.

Solasun
17-01-2009, 17:50
Kind of runs contrary to the Maw. It's not described and appears to have been something that burrowed through the planet (if I recall there's a maelstrom right across the world from it that devours ships en masse) and then went on to chew something else.

Ogres only have the feelings and reactions to it that they do because it literally landed on them. Cathay just hates the place but it got rid of the Ogre problem they were having.

Col. Tartleton
17-01-2009, 18:33
Well now I have no idea what to think. Its a giant black hole like thingy in the mountains? Well dat's sum ********* up s*** righ' thurr.

That doesn't really effect it too much though. If there's some sort of mighty consuming force in the Mountains of Mourn then its not hard to imagine that some orcs might see its base brutality and strength. I think that they'd still develop a sort of cult to it of orc sacrifice and all that. Then the ones who were already biggest would get imbued with the gut magic and become even stronger with sacrificing gnoblars and grots and such.

Its not like orcs have any regard for the little buggerers. I think killing them in the name of Bork would get the same results.

Still, what about the idea of the mammoth/squiggoth?

Solasun
17-01-2009, 19:23
Nit pick mode

The Maw's to the east of the MoM

/Nit pick mode

I like the idea of mammoth/squiggoth myself, I have a half painted Mumak that I planned to festoon in cannons of various sorts (and maybe a BT or mortar or some such) and cover in Ogre-y runes.

Master Stark
17-01-2009, 20:02
I've never said I don't like Orcs or their rules.

So why not just use the OnG rules?

Col. Tartleton
17-01-2009, 21:04
I've said at least twice already that I intend to do both, I'm just brainstorming ideas for a side list!:cries:

I 'm thinking of making an orc and goblin force, then using an allied ogre kingdoms list for variation, only since I don't like the look of ogres that much I want to convert them into orcs and think up some connecting fluff as to why they use gut magic and are really big and all that.

I'd be doing the orcs as main force with a few 6 man units of bulls and a butcher with a lot of gnoblars and probably a few rhinox riders or something that could be allied for big games.

Nephilim of Sin
18-01-2009, 02:51
I've said at least twice already that I intend to do both, I'm just brainstorming ideas for a side list!:cries:

I 'm thinking of making an orc and goblin force, then using an allied ogre kingdoms list for variation, only since I don't like the look of ogres that much I want to convert them into orcs and think up some connecting fluff as to why they use gut magic and are really big and all that.

I'd be doing the orcs as main force with a few 6 man units of bulls and a butcher with a lot of gnoblars and probably a few rhinox riders or something that could be allied for big games.

Okay, that cleared things up huge! Maybe it really was the 'k' instead of the 'c' in orcs that confused me initially :p. I swear, I read those posts a few times, and still wasn't clear, but that is not unusual for me (or the internet!).

I guess I could see the idea of 'Really, really, really Big Uns' to represent the allies, but there will still be a few problems from the biggest nitpickers.

Problem one. The general is supposed to be da biggest and baddest, yet he would still be somewhat weedy in comparison of the Orcs (especially the tyrant), which means the O&G force would probably be the allies, and not the Ogres.

Problem two. I really can't see the justification for Gut magic either, honestly. The Butchers are linked to the Great Maw, and they are initiated at birth into training by the tribes on personal Butcher to learn the ways, which takes years, which isn't as simple as just 'worshiping' the Maw. This will probably be your biggest hurdle to overcome as well as the modeling aspect of it.

There are still a few other issues that people would probably bring up, but, here is a question; wouldn't it just be easier to really, really 'Orcify' Ogres instead? Perhaps that the Ogres are so in awe of the Orcs, they adopt their ways as well (while still being linked to the Maw), much similar to the Man-eaters. It would still be a good modeling project, you could go crazy with making different heads and orky bitz (or still from 40k) and iconography, plus you wouldn't have to worry about size issues, and you could still make your Gnoblars something else.

Of course, if you like a challenge, then just keep with your original premise, but make sure you keep shooting out ideas and eventually make it a project log!

Col. Tartleton
18-01-2009, 15:14
Yeah, the Tyrant would be the overall army leader, as he is 1 big as hell, and 2 his leadership is as good as a black orc warboss, which would otherwise be the army leader. So ultimately yeah the "Ogres" would be the real commanders.

This maw magic is kind of ruining my thoughts, I may have to alter the fluff if its something that only ogres really can use. Probably just have them as being really big orcs influenced by ogre culture and just use gut magic as a variant of waagh rather than true Maw power.