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Captain Galenus
17-01-2009, 10:06
Not sure if this is the right place for this post, please move if not.
I want to do a Nagarythe army based upon Malekith, but I can't decide which army book to use High or dark Elf. Any one help?

Griefbringer
17-01-2009, 10:22
Are you thinking of the Ulthuan civil war era?

In that case, high elves would be the way to go - the traitors would only develop their distinctive ways of war after having left their ancient lands.

Condottiere
17-01-2009, 10:23
This might be a fantasy background section question.

Captain Galenus
17-01-2009, 10:50
Cheers about using HE list. I do think their options are better.
Condottiere, I did say I wasn't sure if this was the right place for this post

Condottiere
17-01-2009, 11:47
Yes, I noted that, and that's why I mentioned the background section. As regards HE units, you could check out the war of the Beard to see what a HE army around that time period looked like.

You'll find that Dragon Princes fly on Drakes.

Captain Galenus
17-01-2009, 17:35
Yeah, I agree the War of the Beard list would be good, just can't remember if it is still allowed. Any idea if it is still legal

Griefbringer
17-01-2009, 17:47
Well, the War of the Beard lists very written to fight against each other, not for general usage.

Ideally, an Ulthuan civil war era Nagarythe army would be fighting against loyalist elves of the same period, so both sides would end up using same army list anyway.

Captain Galenus
17-01-2009, 18:27
Griefbringer, that's what I thought. The only real issue now is what units to exclude from the HE book.

Griefbringer
17-01-2009, 18:40
If you want to go fluffy, you should try excluding some of those units that hail from a specific geographic area of Ulthuan that is far away from Nagarythe.

Captain Galenus
17-01-2009, 19:40
Yeah. I was thinking along the lines of using reavers as dark riders, silver helms, obviously archers spearmen and bolt throwers, but no swordmasters. I was playing with the idea of using phoenix guard and dragon princes. I have decided that the HE rules suit best.
The idea was to use a mix of both DE and HE models. This list is for friendly play only, and having played HE and DE before I wanted something different.

Harwammer
17-01-2009, 20:14
I'm sure there would have been defectors from every realm which would have fought under malekith's banner, even if the movement was a predominately nagarythe thing?

Captain Galenus
17-01-2009, 21:08
I agree, but unfortunately you can't pick an army from 2 books. The idea was to find the best rules to fit the armies described in the Malekith novel. To that end I was planned on putting COKs on silver helm horses and using dragon prince rules. Any out there have any other ideas, especially heavy infantry.

sroblin
18-01-2009, 16:10
I agree, but unfortunately you can't pick an army from 2 books. The idea was to find the best rules to fit the armies described in the Malekith novel. To that end I was planned on putting COKs on silver helm horses and using dragon prince rules. Any out there have any other ideas, especially heavy infantry.

I thought about this, and the White Lions and Phoenix Guard are pretty much out (the former specifically forming in opposition to Malekith, the latter being prescient as to their evil nature), but perhaps the Swordmasters might be admissable, as they are supposed to be involved in the investigationof cults, and Malekith himself was supposedly heading the investigation until the betrayal. If that explanation doesn't work, you could instead used them to represent the kind of elite swordsman-bodyguard in Malekith's service that would later become the similarily elite Blackguard.

Now, the 5th edition HE book stated that many communities in Saphery (wizrads being in favor of unrestricted research I guess), Ellyrion, and Tiranoc sided with Malekith. Saphery brings in wizards of all lores and possibly swordmasters (as discussed above), Tiranoc brings in chariots, and Ellyrion the Reavers. (Also the Nagarythe themselves would probably field their own light horsemen that would later become Dark Riders.)

Shadow Warrior units are natural fit in for obvious reasons. I don't believe repeater crossbows had yet been invented, so no problem there. And the Nagarythe undoubtedly fielded Spearmen and Archers; maybe Malekith also retained the loyalty of some of the Seaguard from his overseas expeditions, I don't know.

Malekith himself was reported to be fighting from a great black dragon during the first phase of the war, before it was killed in the battle of Maledor, which he fled from on a Cold One chariot. This implies that there might have been at least a few cold one chariot in his forces at this time, which you could maybe represent with a White Lion chariot ("...these Cold Ones represent the much larger breeds common in that period of history..." to explain the stat differences?)

Stuffburger
18-01-2009, 17:00
For friendly games I would use a mismatch of the two armies- just show you opponent the list you are working with ahead of time and be prepared to err on the side of underpowered so the person you are playing doesn't feel cheated.

For a tourney- legal army I'd play HE in dark colors and forgo pheonix guard and maybe shadow warriors.

GavT
19-01-2009, 09:47
I would plump for mostly dark elf with the odd HE unit thrown in (if you're playing with someone that doesn't mind mixing and matching). The army of Anlec is pretty 'degenerate' before the war begins - cultists (Witch Elves), sorcerers/ esses and beast masters are all present. No Cold Ones though, so swap them for Silver Helms and horsey chariots. The repeater crossbows were only just coming in to use (the first ones being dwarf-made and brought back from the colonies by returning troops), so you'd need some regular archers too. No cauldron of blood yet, either. Though there are no Shades per se, I can see them representing renegade raven heralds on foot (though with bows rather than repeaters) and other Naggarothi scouts.

On the HE side, there's no Swordmasters - the White Tower wasn't built for nearly another three thousand years! And yes, proper Caledor Dragon princes on dragons. :D Don't forget to include the Everqueen and her handmaidens if fighting in Averlorn (I imagine the powers of the Everqueen haven't changed much). There are Shadows Warriors already, even though the Shadowlands haven't yet been created (led by Alith Anar, of course).

Cheers,

GAV

Condottiere
19-01-2009, 09:53
So RXB prototypes were developed by the Dwarves? Why didn't they develop them further and deploy them in their forces?

Captain Galenus
19-01-2009, 10:54
Thanks for the ideas. I have designed a list using the HE book to represent the core of Malekith's army ie Spearmen, Archers, Raven Heralds and Knights. Have used Reavers as Heralds and Dragon Princes as Knights. Only trouble I have is I can't decide whether to field heavy infantry, and if so what units would I use rules wise. Also I want to use the new HE dragon but not sure if any other lords, apart from Malekith, rode dragons.

Disciple of Caliban
19-01-2009, 12:15
^^ There could have been other lords on dragons. They were more common back then (dragon princes of caledor rode young drakes), just make sure that Malekith is the only one on a star dragon (he's not likely to let any little dragon prince have a better dragon than him)

Heavy infantry is a little trickier. It seems foolish to assume Malekith wouldnt have had some sort of elite infantry, but deciding which rules to use is trickier. Personally, i'd be inclined to go with pheonix guard rules (though dont use pheonix guard models, as has been stated the pheonix guard did not fight alongside Malekith). Closest in rules to the black guard (both using halberds and all), and their causing fear could be explained away easily enough.

Captain Galenus
19-01-2009, 12:49
Disciple of Caliban I think you're right. Black Guard models with Phoenix guard rules would fit the best. I have also been looking at possibly doing a list based on DE army book, because then I could use Witch Elves to represent cultists. But, if I wanted cultists what HE rules would fit best

sroblin
19-01-2009, 15:04
The High Elves don't really have an elite unit with large numbers of low-strength attacks, nor anything with poison. Ironically, the closest mechanically would be a unit of HE Spearmen- a 6 wide x 3 unit of each dishes out 18 S3 attacks, although obviously 3-rank spears and frenzied fighting with 2 hand weapons and poison still have a lot of mechanical differences. (The poison + hatred is what makes the Witch Elves so much more deadly, which is simply not an option in the HE list.) Perhaps, you could imagine that the 'rear-rank' attacks represents the cultists fanatically surging forward to fight despite the casualties. But nothing much closer in the rules comes to mind, unfortunately.

Sorry about being wrong about the Swordmasters, historically. I still think they'd better represent elite druchii infantry, because they're more of an offensive unit with their multiple attacks. I would still consider using the Shadow Warriors as well to represent Nagarythe scouts; I think that style of warfare was important to the Nagarythe in their mountainous homeland.

I think Gav is right that it would be a lot of fun to play games proxying the DE army units/rules as appropriate for the historical setting, although unfortunately there are practical considerations (people viewing such a combination as cheesey, even though that was never the point) which might limit its playability to a more regular gaming group.

Oh, and Gav....tell them to release new rules for the Maiden Guard and Alarielle! I love the unit and the models.

Captain Galenus
19-01-2009, 16:39
To be honest whatever list I decide on will rarely get played, and probably only against a few friends, all of which are aware of my idea. I agree about the cultists having no real HE equivalent, but I might do a list using DE rules to represent the army after Malekith's treachery is revealed.