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Malorian
17-01-2009, 19:26
Ok, this is NOT meant to be a 'deamons are broken' thread, but I'm having trouble trying to come up with a bret list that can stand up to deamons.

The trouble is that brets need to break their opponent on the charge, and deamons just don't break. Add to it that if a bret lance is charge that it's toast, and that hounds have the same range as a lance, they are realy trouble. Finally most of your units will have to take a fear test to even charge so if you were hoping to multi-charge then you can easily get stuck with sending in just one lance to get slaughtered while the other stands back in fear.

TK and VC also cause fear, but they are weaker (WS, T, and save) and a multi-charge can easily get enough CR to crumble the unit in one go.

I had always worried about this in my mind and last night I got to try it out. My pegasus knights got forced to charge a block of stubborn deamonettes thanks to siren song, and then were flanked by hounds. I wiped out the flamers but other than that I just got smashed (and this was by a relatively balanced list).

Grail knights would pack a punch but you can bet they would be wiped out by the flamers and magic. Taking tons of knights errant would get past the fear issue, so I guess if you took a lot of them (some small baiting lances and some larger ones) you could do better, but you still probably won't break them and then you'll just be flanked.

So has any bret player out there found a good tactic? Or are the properties of the deamon army just the perfect anti-bret list?

Malorian
18-01-2009, 04:50
Hmmm, I post this in the morning, check before bed, and no replies.

I fear this confirms my... fears...

apbevan
18-01-2009, 06:57
Ive played my Breatonnians twice against Daemons.

First match was against Blood thirster, hounds, pink horrors and some other stuff. My lord mounted on pegasus was actual immune to the blood thristers fire attacks but he killed my mount and beat me through combat res.
My Knights are better than the hounds on a charge. Better armour, same ward, better CR when I get a pegasus on the flank or 2 units in the front its sure win otherwise its up to the dice gods on who can roll better saves.

My second game I had a large group of archers versus a Tzeentch Daemon but pretty much the same other stuff. This game was lost due to failed Ld tests, I had positioned my charges very well for both front and flank plus multiple fronts in some places but fear caused some units to fail. I wiped out one half of the board and brought his Daemon to 1 wound but the rest of my army fled leaving me exposed in the flanks.

Dragon claw and guilded curious make a great combo against the much flaming deamons.
Use mounted yeoman as bait to get a better charge.
Pegasus for march block and flank/rear is great when they pass LD
50 skirmishing archers is great at harassing and wounding greater daemons(don't forget your prayer icon and a damsel)
MR is your friend. CR is also your friend.

GuyLeCheval
18-01-2009, 11:58
A unit of 5 grail knights w. twillight banner should also do wonders, but other than that, I can't get any good plans in my head...

EldarBishop
18-01-2009, 13:01
I've not actually played against Daemons w/ my Brets.

However, in regards to dealing with trying to charge units of like speed, I try to take the Virtue of the Imp Knight on one hero in my list.

Knights Errant are great to avoid the Fear checks... however, you'd better whitle them down quickly and/or double charge them...

Finnigan2004
18-01-2009, 13:34
It's going to partially depend upon the daemon army that you're facing Malorian. What has he got? Which part is giving you the most trouble?

Guy Fawkes
19-01-2009, 04:06
T3 5+ Ward Save is the basic Daemon infantry unit. A double Lance charge can generate enough CR to win, especially considering Daemon units are generally smaller than TK or VC, despite the better stats. The Heralds are the problem though. Try allocating lots of attacks against Heralds. ASF and Regeneration are your biggest problems. Also, Brets can generally outnumber Daemons in terms of number of units, which means that if you get lots of charges in one turn, even if you don't completely crumble the enemy, they are bogged down and can't rescue each other by flanking you. A 1+ AS is still tough to get through without characters, and by just surviving with outnumber and banner, and possibly a kill or two, you can keep grinding them down.

Little lost on what to do for Heralds or Greater Daemons, however. Fliers are also a big problem.

Malorian
19-01-2009, 04:43
It's going to partially depend upon the daemon army that you're facing Malorian. What has he got? Which part is giving you the most trouble?

Hounds are the most scary. If you charge them you might wipe them out, but if you don't you're screwed. If they charge you you're screwed. They have the same charge range but you have to take a fear test to charge them.

That's a recipe for a massacre if I ever heard one... :cries:

AngelsPurgatos
19-01-2009, 17:27
I haven't used them much as I don't have the models but questing knights should actually be decent against daemons. The reroll for fear is obviously helpful, and the good strength attacks will help in later rounds.

A couple lances or errants, good magic defense, and a Ld 9 general would be good to have too.

I liked the suggestion of using dragon claw and the gilded armor together; I hadn't thought of that one.

I've only faced them once, but my trebuchet helped out with the big blocks despite their ward saves. This is somewhat random though.

kais_fateweaver
21-01-2009, 10:38
Just a thought rolling around in my head...

wonder if someone can make something of it
could men at arms (supported by a knights leadership) be a brets answer to daemons? you get two fully ranked up units with command for every one of ours...

blurred
21-01-2009, 10:50
If they charge you you're screwed.

Really? Don't you get 4+ armour save and 5+ ward against their attacks? That should take care of most wounds they deal.

Daemons are always tough. Maybe the biggest problem for Bretonnians are BFMs as Brets really don't have shooting to take them out. Maybe you should try to castle a corner and bombard the daemon blocks with trebuchets before mopping the floor with knights.

Malorian
21-01-2009, 13:46
Well their 5 hounds get to fight your 3 knights. 10 attacks mean 6.67 hits, 5.56 wounds, 2.78 get past armor, 1.60 get past the ward. Now even if they didn't kill anything the knights won't even do a wound.

So on that first charge the knights will still have 2 ranks, a banner, and out number, but even so those hounds probably aren't going anywhere and they just slowly chew the lance down as it quickly looses ranks and outnumber.

Also keep in mind that the lance is 240 points and the hounds are 175.

MarcoPollo
21-01-2009, 15:07
Massed archer fire can help alot. You can do some major damage to units like horrors, demonettes, and bloodletters. I also think that alot of small units would help. Make sure you use a fighty lord with good leadership and movement. And take down the heralds as a priority. You are going to fail some ld tests, but that just a given. Accept it when it happens, and move on. Atleast he can't flee, so you won't be baited into failed charges.

thomas
21-01-2009, 15:52
I tried playing against deamons. Didn't have the best army facing them was playing a friendly game with a "new" warhammer player.

Men-at-arms really sucked vs deamon: They too tougness and/or have to high weapon skill. You can hit and wound the deamons and they will rip you men-at-arms apart in no time. Low Ld and fear doesn't work to well at the same time.

You should be carefull about khorn things they have high str. 5-6 and ville easily take down a knight or two.

Deamonettes are a danger if they are with Herald.

Questing knights worked really well against deamons. Had a small group charge a block of bloodletters in the flank. Took a few turn but they got them all in the end:)

Bowmen are a good choice against most deamons (not nurgle).

Plaguebearers are a pain to kill!? With ward save, reg. save (need herald) and tougness 4! Don't have any ideers how to take them down, but a good option would be to lure them in to a wood or other difficult terrain with movement 4 they would be stuck for some time. Or make the run after mounted yeomen...