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w3rm
17-01-2009, 20:31
Just wondering if this tactic is worth it. Avian said some stuff about it on his sight but other than what he said I don't really see a point. The unit would automatically be 380 points with no upgrades. Any thoughts on this subject?

Felworth
18-01-2009, 02:17
...

Just started a campaign and am likewise curious as to whether mounting a shaman on a wyvern is a good idea or not.

With someone else serving as general I suppose he'd make a decent flanker unless confronted with something scarier like an enemy mounted character or a cannon... Plus yah know, wouldn't have to worry about animosity slowing him down...

w3rm
18-01-2009, 02:23
Terror is nice but you would definitely want Umm's At. You could maybe use him for war machine hunting. Can you cast bash em ladz on yourself? if so the wyvern would be alot meaner. Just some thoughts

Felworth
18-01-2009, 02:29
Terror is nice but you would definitely want Umm's At. You could maybe use him for war machine hunting. Can you cast bash em ladz on yourself? if so the wyvern would be alot meaner. Just some thoughts


Eh, if someone starts banging off cannon/bolt throwers at you the 5+ won't hold up for too long. Plus, they'll probably skewer the wyvern first anyway which means the shaman has to take up power walking to stay out of trouble.

Use the hundred points for Power Stones I say!

Braad
18-01-2009, 08:19
I think it is a very cool thing to do, but otherwise those points can be used elsewhere to much greater effect. Dunno what Avian though up about it though...

What you could do: (Savage?) Great shaman on wyvern with the Skull Wand of Kaloth, Amulet of Protectyness and the Kickin' Boots.

But I would sooner field them on a wolf or boar.

w3rm
18-01-2009, 13:14
ohhh Skull Wand= bad according to Avian. It is terrible apparently but I have never used it. But i don't like the idea of a 480 point unit that can easily be baited.

Felworth
18-01-2009, 13:23
ohhh Skull Wand= bad according to Avian. It is terrible apparently but I have never used it. But i don't like the idea of a 480 point unit that can easily be baited.


Heh, might prove useful in a challenge against a Skaven character... if the miserable things weren't always hiding in the back of the unit. Oh well.

w3rm
18-01-2009, 13:29
Yeah but if you were to use that tactic I would rather have a little control over my 480 lord than none.....

happy_doctor
18-01-2009, 14:38
To be honest, I don't see how the Wand of Kaloth is terrible in a Savage Great Shaman...

With 3 attacks hitting monsters on 4's, you're looking at a couple of Ld tests each turn...against things like Varghulfs, Stegadons, monstrous mounts and the such I can see it being a sound investment.

What's more, you can make a Black Orc bigboss your general, thus keeping a good leadership for your battleline.

Frenzy can be a liability, but with a flying large target it's easier to counter it if you're careful for the first couple of turns.

What I would consider is the following combo (not based on experience, though)

Savage Orc Great Shaman, lvl 4, Wyvern
Waaagh! paint, Skull Wand, Kickin' Boots

The +2 to cast will hopefully make him shine in magic while he's engaged in combat, something he's bound to do due to frenzy.

w3rm
18-01-2009, 17:42
Hmmmm we need to get Avian in on this...... I really can't see the benefit of this set up. I wouldn't take Waaagh Paint and just go with Umm's 'At. The protection would be better that a +2 to cast.

w3rm
18-01-2009, 17:44
Although now that I think about it most monsters don't have great leadership. That could be nasty on Hydras but you would need to get the charge and if you don't kill it in the first round you will lose....

Braad
18-01-2009, 17:54
Well, I included the savage (note the questionmark) as an alternative for the more daring generals, but my first intention was normal orc. Thing is, most armies have not such a bad leadership, but I can imagine someone fielding this model to at least go a bit magic heavy. So: Horn of Urgok.

If that precious vampire count is charged by this beasty, has to do 3 leadership tests on a -1, and he cannot fail one...

The main problem is that the shaman can't dish out more attacks then 2, or 3 for a savage. What you could do is put him on a boar in a unit of savage boar boyz, and also put in the banner of butchery...

w3rm
18-01-2009, 18:11
Yeah that would be more effective. But a whole lot less fun!

tom1354788
18-01-2009, 19:40
I honestly dont think frenzy is too much of a problems on a model with a 20 inch move. especially when you think about the kind of models your going to get baited by. ie fast cav.

In reality this kind of unit is what you want to be charging anyway, the shaman and wyvern are not powerfull enough taking on big blocks of infantry, you want to be racking up the points taking down the fast cav and war machines, and the ocasional monster if your really lucky.

The main question is if you need the skull wand or not, can the wyvern take out fast cav/ war machines with just his base attacks and terror alone? .... probably! you can use the saved points on powerstones then.

The skull wand is great against low ld monsters as you say, but boy is it a risk if you fail to hit or they pass thier ld test..... still i probably would give it a go!

especially with all the monsters out there at the moment with vc's and dark elves.

w3rm
18-01-2009, 23:53
So basically the wyvern is nothing more than a transport than really to cause damage?

Treadhead_1st
19-01-2009, 00:16
Hmm, this thread is giving me an idea.

A Great Shaman on a Wyvern with Skull Wand and a few Power Stones. backing up his magic would be a couple of NG Shamans and an Orc Boss (to you know, hold the line). Does that sound like a (crazy, if not smart) plan? Can the O&G function without a slot used for a BSB?

That last question is one I see crop up every time I think about mounting *any* character on a Wyvern - whilst he (shaman, Warboss, whoever) is off kickin 'eads, and the Line has some support characters (I'd imagine at least one more magic user, and another for a General) can you really afford/have free slots for a BSB to actually keep the Boyz going where they are meant to (most of the time)? Is the ability to "reach out and pick on war machines/baiters" worth the trade in Leadership?

w3rm
19-01-2009, 00:28
Dang! We need Avian on this thread to answer our many burning questions!

Felworth
19-01-2009, 01:27
So basically the wyvern is nothing more than a transport than really to cause damage?


I miss mounting Orcs and Goblins on Dragons.

Braad
19-01-2009, 08:37
Hmm, this thread is giving me an idea.

Trade at least one power stone for the kickin' boots. If you want to use the skull wand to as much potential as possible, you'll be need as many attacks as you can get.
Also, I would only think of using a shaman lord on wyvern in 3000 points or higher, as I dont' want to miss my general on foot with da boyz. With 4 more character slots, you can easily include a BSB.

About baiting units and what you want to charge: remember that a frenzied model can also be baited by a big unit with a huge character in it... It's just a matter of who gets in line of sight first.

On tactical stuff: you can prevent baiting by flying backwards so that you don't see your opponents, untill you get to where you want. Then you got 20" charge range and you should be able to pick your charges.

About the wyvern, no its not that strong, but with a savage on it, it gains an attack. If you use those attacks to kick a few rank&filers, and let the shaman tackle the character you are after, you should be able to reduce the amount of attacks back enough to make sure the shaman survives.

Don't forget to surprise-unleash urgok's horn in the turn you unleash the shaman.

Very mean trick: forget the wyvern, but instead give him maad's map, the bloodaxe and the amulet of protectyness. Then you'll be quite sure anything you want to cast is in range of your opponent. Hope also to get "Fists of Gork" on that shaman. Maybe a tactic vulnerable to failure, but sure to give fun and lots of surprise.

w3rm
19-01-2009, 13:41
Mmmmmmm Bloodaxe.... Think of the carnage you could do with that baby!

sroblin
19-01-2009, 15:46
Well, I like the idea of the Shaman on the wizard, but I think were kidding ourselves if we're thinking its particularly effective.

The Shaman works by killing stuff with spells and buffing their own unit. The Wyvern is there to bite stuff and fright stuff, and his wings to get him into battle quickly. I suppose the Shaman could orbit around the rear, spreading terror, flinging spells, and eating warmachines- but not if he's frenzied.

A frenzied Shaman will have to charge anything within 20 inches. That means on the first turn the enemy can move some sacrificial unit 5-6 inches forwards, force you to charge, and then flee in perfect safety, leaving the expensive shaman-wyvern combo to be shot or charged on turn 2. Or he can just move forward any decent combat unit within range, get charged and easily win the combat (because wyverns have only 3 (+1 for frenzy) attacks, and shamans are even less scary) and break them with CR.

Then there's a lot of rationalizing of ways that we can somehow make a non-combat character effective in combat, even though they're already paying hundred of points for them to be effective at casting, while starting with only 1 s3 low WS attack. Spending nearly all their item points on Big Ed's + Kaloth combo to make 3 low WS attacks that have a 44% chance of killing anything with LD7 (and things go downhill from there) isn't really using the points efficiently either. Think about how much damage a warboss with 100pts of items could do on the back of a wyvern.

Malorian
19-01-2009, 16:09
If you don't want him to charge first turn... deploy him backwards ;)

w3rm
19-01-2009, 21:58
I see what your saying sroblin. I really don't think skull wand is that great myself, but you could kit him out for magic and use him to kill war machines, terror bomb, and cast doom magic!

sephiroth87
20-01-2009, 04:04
If you're taking a shaman on a wyvern, you're always better off taking the screamin' sword. The skull wand is simply bad. Giving the savage mark is even worse, as you'll be baited. And while they can kill fast cavalry that baits them, any decent player will have a unit of cavalry right behind the fast cav, waiting for you to fail a charge and you'll get smacked down.

I don't think an orc magic user is good enough to justify taking it on a wyvern above a warboss. The black orc on a wyvern is much, much better for the points.

Felworth
20-01-2009, 12:21
If you're taking a shaman on a wyvern, you're always better off taking the screamin' sword. The skull wand is simply bad. Giving the savage mark is even worse, as you'll be baited. And while they can kill fast cavalry that baits them, any decent player will have a unit of cavalry right behind the fast cav, waiting for you to fail a charge and you'll get smacked down.

I don't think an orc magic user is good enough to justify taking it on a wyvern above a warboss. The black orc on a wyvern is much, much better for the points.


But then were stuck where we were before with the Warboss winging about on his own, having crazy blood soaked adventures while the rest of the army falls apart due to poor leadership.

SURELY GW wouldn't put something in the army book if it was completely useless....

Lord Khabal
20-01-2009, 12:48
"SURELY GW wouldn't put something in the army book if it was completely useless.... "

LOL!!!!

Chiungalla
20-01-2009, 13:17
If you field a great Shaman you will end up, sooner or later, to the point, that you need a save place for him.
He costs many points and is essential for your victory.

Since he casts that nasty warpath spell from time to time, he can't hide in a forest on his own. To much a risk.

But you can't put him into a unit of common or savage orcs, since they are subjekt to animosity, and will ruin your magic phase from time to time.

And if you put him into war machines he may be picked very fast by war machine hunters...

I used to put him into a unit of black orcs.
That costs one special slot, and tons of points.
And if your opponent puts enough efford in this, he will get the shaman anyway.

But if you put your shaman on the back of a wyvern, he can fly around.
He can use cover, so that war machines can't target him, and may still be within reach for nearly every Spell whenever you want.

You can avoid nearly every opponents units, and he will nearly never see a close combat with the shaman.

And after all you can go with the Sword of Might, 5+ Ward, Waaaghpaint and 2 dispel scrolls / power stones. So if your opponent shows you somethin soft to charge, you can do it and get those nice +2 for casting throws.

And sometimes the shaman will go for it and gets frenzy from a miscast... and from that moment on he will kick ass in close combat.