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Minus67
17-01-2009, 23:56
Why i think dark elves suck.

Minus67
18-01-2009, 00:02
Dark Elves cannot compete in a competitive field filled with DOC and VC because of several reasons.

1.Inability to deal with Cairn Wraiths, this is a problem many armies face but its the dark elves especially bad as they (usually) have a small unit count. Screening wraiths can shut down whole armies of dark elves and can invalidate knights and hydras.

2. Weak magic defense against VC raising and Tzeentch offense. No fancy scrolls to strip spells, ways to get MR on units short of characters or ways to generate extra dispel dice find dark elves relying heavily on the ring to stop these two armies worth of magic.

3. Low unit Cap on blackguard, this unit would be awesome and indeed usally is the center of many dark elf armies but its low unit cap of 20 sees it horribly crippled by magic.

Thats long enough for a first post

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 00:11
If this is the type of armies you have seen then your idea of "properly made" Dark Elves is highly mislead, as a true Dark Elf army has lots of quick units, good magic, great offense including Hydra and lots of Black Guard as well as dirt cheap core choices.

Your above implies that for an army to be competitive they need ways to destroy spells, have access to MR without characters and generate extra Dispel Dice, yet in the previous thread you said you consider WoC as one of the only 6 true armies. They have access to none of these things, and only a small handful of armies in Warhammer have access to the first two.

What on earth makes you think Dark Elves can't handle Cairn Wraiths? They have one of the best magic item selections of any army and also have great magic with access to great lores. And even if what you said was true, it's hardly grounds to say that they suck. Vampire Counts have nothing to deal with Shadowblade or Assassins, so I guess they suck too yea?

And oh dear, Black Guard suck because they can't have a unit bigger than 20. What pants! Most infantry units are taken in 20's in any army other than a horde army, and no competent player takes elite infantry in huge units ever.

Honestly, I'm not sure if anyone else will come onto this thread and say Dark Elves suck, so if you are going to agrue, will you at least make proper arguments instead of, "They suck because they can't beat one unit" or "they suck because my army trounced them."

Minus67
18-01-2009, 00:25
modern fantasy does come down to being able to beat one unit.
Sure dark elves have plenty magic weapons to hurt cairn wraiths however your T3 chracters are easy prey for charging cairn wraiths and your units have no hope.

Cairn wraiths beat shadowblade and assassins he has no magic weapon and normal assassins can only get one.

Undead dont care about assassins as all the character will have a high armor save and regen a good amount of the time and only the lord really matters.

i mispoke, dark elves have a small number of units that actually matter to a undead or vc player.

WOC have a unit that has magic attacks, has the lore of nurgle and and mark of nurlge Knights. I will admit that they are tentatively put on the list. However they have the weapons and they # of attacks in their units to fight VC and demons.

Dark Elves also suck becuase:

1.No flaming weapons to overcome their regen.
2.No way to deal with flamers who will wreck anything short of a hydra.
3. Hatred can be used against you almost as effectively as frenzy

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 00:56
3. Hatred can be used against you almost as effectively as frenzy
But only by a very competent player with certain army builds. You are acting like Dark Elves are the only army with a weakness.

How the hell do you think a S5 attack can fell a Dark Elf character so easily? You really know little of what you are talking about and I would assume little experience versus proper Dark Elves also. Dark Elf characters always have great saves of different kinds.

You also actually know little of their rules. Why would you mention Cairn Wraiths beating Assassins/Shadowblade? Do you have any idea of their rules. They would never ever be in a combat with a Cairn Wraith. Against VC they will not appear until the delivering unit is in combat with your general, in which they pop out so that your unit champion cannot accept the challenge and proceed to wipe the floor with them. Shadowblade in particular appears inside your unit.

No flaming weapons you say, and then you go talking about the Hydra in the following line? Hydra has a flame weapon. Dark Elves have access to the lore of fire also, and the lore of emtal which has flaming attacks.

Nothing to deal with Flamers? You talk as if Flamers are the single hardest thing to kill. Magic, shooting combat, Dark Elves are good at it all, and most of their units can take down Flamers.

It really sounds to me like your "modern fantasy" is something you don't actually play much, or else play in a highly restricted group where you gain little experience. You are making statements which aren't even true and not even backing them up. If it were down to beating one unit, tell me what do you think would happen if the army had only that one unit left with not many casualties taken, do you think that one unit could take down the majority of an army? No, they couldn't, hence why deathstar units don't work much, because they are avoided, and Dark Elves are one of the best at doing this, bested only by the Wood Elves.

Now please, play enough games or come up with something concrete and back it up, don't waste both our time with false one liners.

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 01:20
Just for anyone else who joins in on this debate, this started in another thread off topic, and these are the original questions and answers after the initial claim from Minus67 that Dark Elves suck:


Why on earth would you think that? Ask any Dark Elf player, ask anyone who has faced a proper Dark Elf player, or better still, look at the standings in the GT's around the world and you will see them littered with high ranking Dark Elf armies.


The standings in the GT are impressive and I congratulate those players on their superb tactics and rolling. However VC and Daemons will still wipe the floor with them 8 out of 10 times.

There are only 5/6 real armies in Fantasy
Daemons
VC
High Elves
Dark Elves
Warriors of Chaos
(Lizardmen) Maybe?

All the rest think they are real armies and indeed they were real armies before the release of Daemons or 7th edition. The rest of them have one or two viable builds that are still substandard to the 5/6 listed armies.



And BTW, how can you justify that an army is crap just because you think it can't compete against two out of fourteen other armies?


i have played many dark elf armies the were properly built and crushed them with VC

w3rm
18-01-2009, 02:36
Dark elves are the opposite of suck. Sure they have one or 2 things that are a drag but what army doesn't? Just because an army isn't "new" doesn't mean it isn't good. I've seen excellent Tomb King, Ogre and Orc players. In fact got to this site :http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/subpage.php?s=index_tactics and tell me Orcs and Goblins or Ogres are bad because they are slightly underpowered compared to Daemons or Vampires!

EDIT: Sorry I kind of got away from the intended subject. But my points still stand. DE are one of the better armies out there.

loveless
18-01-2009, 02:44
...does this thread actually exist? Members' names in the title of a tactics thread? How fitting that it's about Dark Elves - you can feel the arrogance!

:p

Just kidding, folks - carry on *shoos you on your way*

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 03:04
Hey now, I had nothing to do with it, I just logged on to Warseer a few hours ago and saw this here. I thought it was rather lame to be honest.

loveless
18-01-2009, 03:10
You know what would be REALLY funny - if GodlessM and Minus67 were the same person. :D

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 03:25
Mildly amusing, but I believe of all the things I am, mentally unstable isn't one of 'em.

Dooks Dizzo
18-01-2009, 03:27
Dark Elves are rock hard, at least mine are.

Cairn Wraiths? Suck on about 5 offensive spells that hammer them appart.
Daemons? I have one of the only armies that can reliably generate enough kills to win combat regularly.

I took a loss to daemons today at a tourny, but it had nothing at all to do with my army, I was simply out played by a very balanced daemon force lead by a very strong general. If I had it to do all over again I would feel confident in my abilitly to beat him.

Flamers are tough yes, but not more so for Dark Elves than anyone else.

I just started playing Fantasy and am running 4 and 2. all of my games have been against vets.

Hatred used against me? How so? Especially when both the armies you're talking about can't be broken and then pursued...

Hatred is no where near as dangerous to the owning player as Frenzy for example.

I run 15 BG and have never needed more than that.

sulla
18-01-2009, 03:41
3. Hatred can be used against you almost as effectively as frenzy

You talk about daemons and vampires... how can they exploit hatred?

Freenut
18-01-2009, 03:47
Really silly stuff. The hatred argument makes me laugh. Sure it can be used against you, if you let it. But if a player knows that he can gaurd against it. As far as regen. goes you don't need flaming attacks. Killing blow works just fine. ( not to mention that they do get access to to spell lores that have falming attacks) No way to deal with flamers? Dark Elves are as better equiped than many armies to deal with them. If Minus67 is saying that Deamons and Undead are hard for Dark Elves to deal with then am willing to grant that, but then thats the same for every army right now. If on the other hand Minus67 is saying Dark Elves just suck because they can't beat demons and undead...well I will be nice and just say he is dead wrong.

Thurizdan
18-01-2009, 05:40
Perhaps you gentleman should just lay them out on the table and measure?

Minus67
18-01-2009, 07:40
S5 attack can fell a Dark Elf character so easily? You really know little of what you are talking about and I would assume little experience versus proper Dark Elves also. Dark Elf characters always have great saves of different kinds.

You also actually know little of their rules. Why would you mention Cairn Wraiths beating Assassins/Shadowblade? Do you have any idea of their rules. They would never ever be in a combat with a Cairn Wraith. Against VC they will not appear until the delivering unit is in combat with your general, in which they pop out so that your unit champion cannot accept the challenge and proceed to wipe the floor with them. Shadowblade in particular appears inside your unit.

No flaming weapons you say, and then you go talking about the Hydra in the following line? Hydra has a flame weapon. Dark Elves have access to the lore of fire also, and the lore of emtal which has flaming attacks.

Nothing to deal with Flamers? You talk as if Flamers are the single hardest thing to kill. Magic, shooting combat, Dark Elves are good at it all, and most of their units can take down Flamers.

It really sounds to me like your "modern fantasy" is something you don't actually play much, or else play in a highly restricted group where you gain little experience. You are making statements which aren't even true and not even backing them up. If it were down to beating one unit, tell me what do you think would happen if the army had only that one unit left with not many casualties taken, do you think that one unit could take down the majority of an army? No, they couldn't, hence why deathstar units don't work much, because they are avoided, and Dark Elves are one of the best at doing this, bested only by the Wood Elves.

Now please, play enough games or come up with something concrete and back it up, don't waste both our time with false one liners.

I play in a group of over 50 players in one of the most hardcore cities in the US. I travel to GT's and IGT's each year and plan to continue this year. So that argument doesnt really work.

I know exactly how assassins work in the dark elves, as i have been playing them for over 10 years. If the undead player is smart your lord should be in a cav unit and not subjec to shadowblade. Also its not exactly rocket science to know where you opponents assassins are and as such your cairn wraiths should going and beating them up.

By flaming weapons i meant magic items. the hydra, once it is in close combat, is just as impotent against regen as the rest of the dark elf army.

Flamers are one of the most complained about units in the game and due to being 2 wound t4 skirmishers are very hard for dark elves to deal with.
It should take about 25 repeater crossbows shots to deal even a single wound to a flamer, much less kill a unit. Being T3 makes them extra deadly to dark elves.

"Modern Fantasy" Or at least the armies i saw at the top tables of the IGT's, Gt's and local tournaments i attended and ran, had a "death star" unit that was supposed to be nigh invincible and if it was not destroyed the best the opponent could claim was a minor victory. If your local meta game hasn't caught up maybe you should try playing new people.

Having access to the lore of fire and metal is good, however metal is onyl good if they are wearing armor, (vampire characters should'nt be) and only really works on khorne heralds.

The lore of fire is handy but on the whole a very mediocre lore but ill conceded it is a good tool for them. Many players don't take it though. (foolishly)

Cairn Wraiths are a huge threat to any dark elf character not wearing the pendant. And since you mostly need magic to overcome the aforementioned units, the amount of Masters being taken is very low.


Dark elves are the opposite of suck. Sure they have one or 2 things that are a drag but what army doesn't? Just because an army isn't "new" doesn't mean it isn't good. I've seen excellent Tomb King, Ogre and Orc players. In fact got to this site :http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/subpage.php?s=index_tactics and tell me Orcs and Goblins or Ogres are bad because they are slightly underpowered compared to Daemons or Vampires!

EDIT: Sorry I kind of got away from the intended subject. But my points still stand. DE are one of the better armies out there.

There are great players of every army. I do not wish to diminish their achievements with sub par books and armies.


Hey now, I had nothing to do with it, I just logged on to Warseer a few hours ago and saw this here. I thought it was rather lame to be honest.

I just didn't want to derail the lizardmen discussion, and you responded so you cant have thought it was that lame.


Dark Elves are rock hard, at least mine are.
Cairn Wraiths? Suck on about 5 offensive spells that hammer them appart.
Daemons? I have one of the only armies that can reliably generate enough kills to win combat regularly.

Flamers are tough yes, but not more so for Dark Elves than anyone else.

I run 15 BG and have never needed more than that.

Assuming you are throwing 5 offensive spells a turn, successfully without miscasting and the VC player doesn't dispel them ( all very unlikely) you still will not kill all of my 7 cairn wraiths. You will mess them up. It will take you a minimum of Two turns of perfect magic to kill one unit.

Flamers are super tough for dark elves becuase they dont have the toughness and the armor or numbers to resist the damage that they can throw. Unlike other armies (WOC, Vampires, some high elf units)





You talk about daemons and vampires... how can they exploit hatred?

Anytime you can KNOW where you opponent is going to be is a big advantage. Forcing a charge with a small block of infantry right in the face of dark elf units is an excelletn way to either
A. Hold them in place and charge them with another unit since they no longer will have hatred
B. Force them to charge and over run.



Perhaps you gentleman should just lay them out on the table and measure?

about 8:D

HisBrettness
18-01-2009, 09:57
I'm not an experiennced Warhammer player, but as I see it you are contradicting your self quite a lot Minus. First you say things like:

"Undead dont care about assassins as all the character will have a high armor save and regen a good amount of the time and only the lord really matters."

then you say

"Having access to the lore of fire and metal is good, however metal is onyl good if they are wearing armor, (vampire characters should'nt be) and only really works on khorne heralds."

The same with some other points I forgot.

Oh, rembered it, if you Lord is mounted as you said his Armour save can't be bad and regen doesnt help against Metal 1 at all

innerwolf
18-01-2009, 10:21
"Modern Fantasy" Or at least the armies i saw at the top tables of the IGT's, Gt's and local tournaments i attended and ran, had a "death star" unit that was supposed to be nigh invincible and if it was not destroyed the best the opponent could claim was a minor victory. If your local meta game hasn't caught up maybe you should try playing new people.

You are going to tell me this metagame is desirable? I, as the overwheelming majority of players around the world, think Deathstars, ultra-killy infantry and ubber-characters have ruined the game and it's balance.
If you like playing "my lord in huge, untouchable elite infantry block + 14 dice vs your biggest flying lord with skirmishers from hell +14 power dice" I'm glad you enjoy your games. But I'm quite happy no one in my gaming circle tries to enforce something like this unto us. Warhammer is about balanced armies of basic infantry blocks,supporting shooting and cavalry and using strategies to win. Not rolling dice until someone loses.

W0lf
18-01-2009, 11:06
If i have to explain why dark elfs don't suck; you don't know enough about fantasy to understand anyway.

/end.

Frankly
18-01-2009, 11:08
Dark Elves cannot compete in a competitive field filled with DOC and VC because of several reasons.

1.Inability to deal with Cairn Wraiths, this is a problem many armies face but its the dark elves especially bad as they (usually) have a small unit count. Screening wraiths can shut down whole armies of dark elves and can invalidate knights and hydras.

2. Weak magic defense against VC raising and Tzeentch offense. No fancy scrolls to strip spells, ways to get MR on units short of characters or ways to generate extra dispel dice find dark elves relying heavily on the ring to stop these two armies worth of magic.



What are you talking about?

1. Cairn Wraiths are great, I run them, I love them, at 50 pts they should be great. but they're fragile.

What are you screening them with? How do they shut down whole Lists? Why can't one of the fastest armies in the game get to them? The compete lack a substance in your argument is worrying.

A few nights ago I was playing around with my fast cavalry DE list, wraiths made their move from behind a dire wolf unit, tried to charge ... I fled(hmmm ... fast cavalry). Next turn Life taker + Hydra's teeth into the unit = dead. Everything has its weaknesses ... including DE and including wraiths.

I play against VC A LOT and no VC list likes Hydra blade + Hatred. Or Hydra banner + hatred especailly from a 18'' charging fast cavalry unit(hmmmm .... flank charges).

2. I don't understand how DE can produce just as much anti-magic defence as any other basic list by having the option to take mages + Cloak + Ring + S.o.Sorcery and 'suck' more than any other armybook. They're got a fine basic magic defense. Or are you basically saying that DE and all the other armybooks out there have a hard time against VC and DoC magic heavy .... well thanks for the up date:eyebrows:.

Alathir
18-01-2009, 11:20
Dark Elves cannot compete in a competitive field filled with DOC and VC because of several reasons.



Just my two cents here...

VC arent the broken mess people think they are, they can be abused more easily and more heavily than others but they arent a mess. DOC, however, are the most broken book to date (and this is coming from someone who hates people who sound like this..) and I think its only a good thing if DE cant compete against them!

I do not want armies to have to go to the power level of DOC, that was too far with alot of mistakes in it. We need to reign it in here and I think the DE and WOC did this excellently.

So my problem with your argument was really your first sentence..

Frankly
18-01-2009, 11:36
Dark Elves also suck becuase:

1.No flaming weapons to overcome their regen.
2.No way to deal with flamers who will wreck anything short of a hydra.
3. Hatred can be used against you almost as effectively as frenzy

Sorry, for the double post but didn't see this.

The first 2 points are very good points and should be something a DE player should think about.

1. I'd agree with number one actually, when I'm playing V.C. at tournements I'm always running flamming attacks(bale fire lance + red fury + unit with hatred banner), blood knight denial units + nurgle + regen have huge effects on the game. I've found Regen really horrible to deal with with my DE list actually.

But duel hydras and Lore of fire are 2 really good options. Duel hydras are common in tournaments and being able to have the choice of taking Lore of fire gives DE magic heavy flexibility to deal if Regen heavy lists.

I've also seen 4 x RBTs reap wounds against some sorts of regen units, but not all.

2. Hmmm, one of my most feared units in a tournament; flexible flyer with shooting: great for board control. But yeah against a fast DE list you're going to have one combat/shooting option before I'm going to re-act.

Last game I had against them they tried to shoot at my shades in woods, not a bad option. not then got hit with an assassin and flanked with fast cavalry + hero + something magical = dead flamers.

Again like wraiths, a great unit, better (imho) than wraith for a support unit. But again; DE can deal with them, no two ways about it.

3. Well, this is a bit laughable. In the smallest way imaginable is hatred like frenzy. Hatred is the one golden thing amongst many good things that play well effective against VC and DoC, it gives you a consist dice roll, in tournaments that's just godly. If your playing against hatred like your playing against frenzy then ... yeah ... I'm not to sure what to say.

havoc626
18-01-2009, 11:49
I do not want armies to have to go to the power level of DOC, that was too far with alot of mistakes in it. We need to reign it in here and I think the DE and WOC did this excellently.

Couldn't agree with you more on that point.

I think one of the main things of why DE seem as though they are underpowered is the fact that they were the first army book released after DoC, so of course they will seem bad.

I'm not saying that they are bad, just that in comparison to DoC, they look it. Mind you, most armies out there at the moment look like that.

DE is a great army and is in no way underpowered. They have good shooting, magic and CC, but their weakness is that they don't have a good anvil unit (that I can remember) other than the Hydra, and I don't know why anyone would charge that thing unless they were sure of killing it.

As with most of the Elves, if you let one or two of your squad fall due to a bad call on range of charges, it will hurt you. A lot. They are T3, lt. armour, shield and spear wielding models that are the same cost as many elite infantry, of course they aren't going to be able to take a charge from Cairn Wraiths. Even if they could wound the wraiths, they wouldn't be enough left. Wraiths hurt when you get charged by them.

But as for the arguement that DE have nothing to be able to deal with Wraiths, what do HE have that can deal with them any better? They have their characters and magic, but what else? No more than DE. Cairn Wraiths are a bugger to deal with for many armies, as most of their models can't hurt them other than throough CR, which can be hard with those things hitting the way they do.

Overall, DE are a great army and can't be said to be underpowered. If you want to talk underpowered, talk about Ogre Kingdoms.

Nicha11
18-01-2009, 12:10
If i have to explain why dark elfs don't suck; you don't know enough about fantasy to understand anyway.

/end.

well, thats pretty hard to argue with because. If i argue with you i am obviously an idiot...

==Me==
18-01-2009, 14:34
First that crap on BoLS and now this?

Funny stuff :rolleyes:

Frankly
18-01-2009, 14:35
Whats BoLS?

sulla
18-01-2009, 14:42
Anytime you can KNOW where you opponent is going to be is a big advantage. Forcing a charge with a small block of infantry right in the face of dark elf units is an excelletn way to either
A. Hold them in place and charge them with another unit since they no longer will have hatred
B. Force them to charge and over run.





Hatred doesn't force you to charge, that's frenzy.
Hatred doesn't force you to overrun unless you charged.
If you hold them in place and charge with another unit to win, hatred is irrelevant.

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 14:43
Bell of Lost Souls.


If the undead player is smart your lord should be in a cav unit and not subject to shadowblade.

In which case he is easier to kill. One Bolt Thrower fires, only has to kill one or two Knights usually, and when the next one fires the Lord gets no look out sir roll, and so he goes poop.

Frankly
18-01-2009, 14:53
I'm guessing Minus67 is going to say a unit of 12(maybe bigger) dire wolves or something, which isn't a bad option.

Dooks Dizzo
18-01-2009, 15:03
What happened on BoLS?

Anyway I will take the Pepsi challenge with my Druchii vs. any other army out there. I may not win every game but if I lose it will because I didn't play well enough.

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 15:03
I'm guessing Minus67 is going to say a unit of 12 dire wolves or something, which isn't a bad option.

Which would be easier as you wouldn't even need to use the Bolt Thrower to take down 8 of them. Hell even charge them with Black Guard, challenge with your Champion. Champion dies and gives around 3CR, the Black Guard maul most of the Wolves and win by 6 or 7.

Dooks Dizzo
18-01-2009, 15:20
Oh and why do I need a perfect magic phase to kill T3 models? Chillwind, Doombolt and Bladewind and Black Horror are all capable of crippling a unit of wraiths with a single casting. You might run 10 of them but most people don't want to invest the 500+ points.

After that it's just a quick charge with any unit with a static combat res of 3+ and bye bye wraith suckers.

I would love fighting VC's personally. Dark Elves actually have about the only shooting that can cut down zombies faster than they can be raised :)

Daemons are something of a tactical challenge, but they are for EVERYONE. That's not a weakness of the Dark Elves.

Frankly
18-01-2009, 15:53
Which would be easier as you wouldn't even need to use the Bolt Thrower to take down 8 of them. Hell even charge them with Black Guard, challenge with your Champion. Champion dies and gives around 3CR, the Black Guard maul most of the Wolves and win by 6 or 7.

Well lets not get a head of ours selves. :D

I'm only relying to a B.thrower and 'look out sir' rule.

The other advantages are no pyche, fear + US and self healing with nehek.

Like I said not a bad option, but not world shaking either.

We could go on about who'd win the support unit arm's race against wolves/bats/raised zombie units/B.knights verses DE RBTs/harpies/DRs/shades, but I'd rather not. Both are even imho.

Also:

16 inch fast cavalry charge move against BGs 10 inches charge move. No contest in mobility and its advantages.

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 15:57
Black Guard ASF 9 times out of 10.

Frankly
18-01-2009, 17:00
After that it's just a quick charge with any unit with a static combat res of 3+ and bye bye wraith suckers.

I would love fighting VC's personally. Dark Elves actually have about the only shooting that can cut down zombies faster than they can be raised :)



... even sword of might is fine, after a bit of magic and maybe death taker has had a go at the unit.

I play both VC and DE, alot of my gaming group play have played DE for a very long time, now that both books are out, its one of the best match ups out there, its a blast playing DE verse VC or the other way around ... great, great fun.

Frankly
18-01-2009, 17:01
Black Guard ASF 9 times out of 10.

LoL no .... I'm saying BG aren't ever going to get a charge on a light cavalry unit. Winning combat maybe, depends whats in a VC l.cavalry unit .... but generally I'd say 9/10 times to GB :D


Wait, wait, wait ... why am I defending M.67's thread?:eyebrows:

GodlessM
18-01-2009, 17:31
Haha, quite "Frankly" I don't know

kyussinchains
18-01-2009, 17:56
... even sword of might is fine, after a bit of magic and maybe death taker has had a go at the unit.

I play both VC and DE, alot of my gaming group play have played DE for a very long time, now that both books are out, its one of the best match ups out there, its a blast playing DE verse VC or the other way around ... great, great fun.

I have to agree 100% with your sentiments there, I don't play very often, but so far I've played 9 games with the new DE, won 8 and my one loss was against the new VC, it was a really good game with lots of give and take on both sides, reminded me of the glory days of 6th edition HE vs DE games.

Frankly
18-01-2009, 18:04
Haha, quite "Frankly" I don't know


oooohhhhhh that was bad.:evilgrin:


K.Chains, lots or good choices throughout both books, lots of play options, lots of themes and fluffs, great times ahead for both books imho.

TiechoNortheal
18-01-2009, 19:56
I play Dark Elves and VC as my two main armies, and I'm fully confident that my Dark Elves could completely and utterly trash my VC.

If you wanna beat VC armies, kill the Characters. End of story. Few other armies out there are as good at killing characters as Dark Elves are.

Those Carin Wraiths aren't nearly as scary when they are taking crumble tests on that crappy LD every turn because the general died to an Assassin with Killing Blow.

And why are DE bad at killing Wraiths? 5 out of our 6 spells are direct damage. Cast Bladewind on them twice and that's effectively a dead unit.

Wraiths are a problem or everyone except Wood Elves and Daemons. You just have to know how to fight them. Anyone who thinks I'm going to let you charge a unit of mine that has no way to fight them is an idiot. I'll flee from the charge and bring something that can hurt them into play.