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Harwammer
18-01-2009, 20:32
"Is a champion considered to be a character in a challenge?"

This obviously is an important question for our WoC friends with their 'Eye of The tiGer' rule.

Now, I know EoTG has been done to death (several times), but I didn't want to necro and I've been having some thoughts on what constitutes a character (uh oh ;)).

As we all know a champion is NOT a character.

... except sometimes he kind of is!

Champions are subject to these rules that affect characters:
1) they may move within their unit as characters do,
2) they may accept, issue and refuse challenges,
3) they are treated as characters for 'Look out, Sir!'

Now only point 2) is really relevant to EoTG. They may accept, issue and refuse challenges. Note this rule does not say they are treated as characters for challenges (ie for fighting challenges and overkill). Keep this in mind as There will be a question on this at the end of the class.

Skipping through the rules of challenges we are shown how challenge is initiated or avoided. Fine, we have been told champions can participate in this stuff. From here on things get jammy from a RAW perspective.

Why do things get jammy? Because we are never told to count champions as characters in challenges. We are merely told champions may enter challenges, so some questions are raised.
'Does a champion fight the challenge as a normal character would?',
'Character mounts may participate in a challenge, but can a champion's steed participate in a challenge?'
and 'Do excess wounds on champions count towards overkill?'

We are never told champions follow the rules for fighting challenges, for using mounts in challenges. We could even assume they don't. Silliness.

The 'Overkill!' rule tells us excess wounds (normally discounted) when fighting characters do count towards combat resolution in challenges. From a literal perspective it can unclear if pummelling champions can yield Overkill. After all, we are only told they follow the rules for issuing/accepting/refusing challenge; Overkill is a separate part of the challenge rules. However, upon reading the example we see that champions can yield overkill. They count as characters for Overkill, made clear by the example, though not explicitly stated by the rules. Based on this, I suggest that champions count as characters in all regards when it comes to fighting challenges. If this were not true the rules would have artefacts such as champions' steeds being unable to fight in challenges, which would be clearly pish posh.

So I put it unto you, dear jury, saying champions do not give EoTG rolls is equivalent to saying a champions steed may not. To me if a champion's steed may attack in a challenge then surely he counts as a champion for EoTG


This is my argument for why chaos champions are treated as characters for:
Issuing challenges (forced), refusing challenges (banned), their moutns being allowed to fight (not RAW!) and rolling on the EoTG table (when they kill an enemy character in a challenge with a warshrine present).

Necromancy Black
18-01-2009, 22:42
Except the rules on Champions are clear. They are not characters, they are rank and file models that share 3 rules with characters. Only one of these rules makes the champion "count as" a character, and that's only for Look Out Sir! rolls. No where does it say they count as characters for challanges, it only says they can accept and refuse them.

Your logic of Overkill would make more sense if it meant you can't get overkill against non-characters...but GW have already released an FAQ giving a situation were you can get overkill on a single wound champion (using a multiwounding weapon). The more logical assumption made by players is the word "character" in teh Challenge rules is replaced by "model".

Harwammer
18-01-2009, 23:38
If you have to subsitute the word 'character' for 'model' the rules really are not that clear.

I feel I already covered your points that it 1) never says champions count as characters in a challenge, 2) overkill works on champions. It is strongly implied by the challenge rules, especially by overkill, that champions count as characters in challenges.

Even though I disagree with your interpretaion of the rule in a literal sense, I think it makes a workable house rule and I do appreciate your input.

alextroy
19-01-2009, 00:36
So I put it unto you, dear jury, saying champions do not give EoTG rolls is equivalent to saying a champions steed may not. To me if a champion's steed may attack in a challenge then surely he counts as a champion for EoTG.

And here your argument becomes a matter of apples and oranges. Specific models have the EoTG rules, not the Warriors of Chaos army as a whole. No unit champion in the army has the EoTG rule, which the characters (except the Daemon Prince) do. The only way for a champion to get the rule is for a Chaos Warshrine to be in play. Since the Warshrine specifically adds that rule to all unit champions, it is patently obvious that they normally do not have the rule.

Necromancy Black
19-01-2009, 00:49
Yeah, there is just simply nothing at all to support champions count as characters in challanges, but by those lines then the overkill rules and such wouldn't work as they all mention "characters".

Then there is an FAQ, that has an example of champions and overkill in challanges, meaning the rules do apply.

So there are two options:
1) champions count as characters in close combat
2) the challange rules, including overkill, apply to any model or part of

Number 2 is the best option for a couple of reasons:

a) this allows mounts, espicially monstourous mounts, to have all the rules aplly to them as well, including the ability to cause and be affected by overkill. By option one they would have to count as characters to fight or not be allowed to fight/cause overkill as they are not characters.

b) allowing a model in a challenge to always be counted as a characters opens up other rules issues. For example, if my saurus champion and your champion survive a challange issued in your turn, you can be damn well sure that in my turn I'm going to cast Bear's Anger on him. He's in a challange, and if that makes him count as a character he becomes a valid target for character only spells.

c) following the above, you satrt getting weird situation that get further from RAW and take longer to work out and understand all the effects. Option too keeps things simple and the game running. GW have taken this approach more then once too.

GodlessM
19-01-2009, 01:07
See this is the worst thing about the EoTG rule, people exploit the slightly rocky wording to come up with wild theories and interpretations on it, despite the fact that the layout and intent of the rule are crystal clear. It applies to characters only except when a War Shrine is on the table. If it counted for unit champions it would be listed under any unit that can take a champion, just like how it's listed under characters profiles.

Harwammer
19-01-2009, 01:09
And here your argument becomes a matter of apples and oranges. Specific models have the EoTG rules, not the Warriors of Chaos army as a whole. No unit champion in the army has the EoTG rule, which the characters (except the Daemon Prince) do. The only way for a champion to get the rule is for a Chaos Warshrine to be in play. Since the Warshrine specifically adds that rule to all unit champions, it is patently obvious that they normally do not have the rule.

This is completely off topic!

I said at the end of my post this is for when a warshrine is present!

That applies to you too GodlessM!

@Necromancy black yeah, you're right that this would open up things like bear's anger etc. Still, as it is, a chapion's steed can't technically attack in a challenge, but I think it is best to ignore that rule's quirk, yep? ;)

Oh and also Necromancyblack, do you play that EoTG champions can roll on the table for killing a character in a challenge? You said pretend 'character' says 'model' for challenges stuff, does this extend to 'character with eotg can roll for...' things? Obviously RAW they can't, but as we've shown there are RAW issues with how challenges are written regarding champions.

nosferatu1001
19-01-2009, 11:57
I would say yes - assuming the champion has the EotG rule from a warshrine, they should get teh stats buff (or stupidity) as a result.


Seems the fairest and leeast nitpicky answer

Whitehorn
19-01-2009, 12:10
Why keep arguing? It really is pointless. They'll swing an FAQ one way or another. For the moment champions are not characters.

Neknoh
19-01-2009, 12:13
The rules that ARE clear:


When killing enemy characters in challenges, models with the Eye of the Gods rule gets a roll on the table and therefore the stat-boost

Unless a Warshrine is on the table, champions of Warriors of Chaos armies does NOT have the Eye of the Gods rule


Rules that are UNCLEAR:

(assuming our model in the challenge has the Eye of the Gods rule)
Do you get rolls on the table for killing enemy unit champions? Even if people argue that it is clear, some argue that it is not, what is the real RAI here? Heck, what is the RAW here?

Is the forced challenge applied to models with the Eye of the Gods rule, or does it apply to all models able to issue and accept challenges in the WoC army? I would actually say that it is the latter AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS. The rule is present under the Eye of the Gods rule, as such, it would suggest it only applies to said models, however, the wording applies to Chaos Models, not Models with the Eye of the Gods rule. This is a very strange subject.

Harwammer
19-01-2009, 12:28
"When killing enemy characters in challenges, models with the Eye of the Gods rule gets a roll on the table and therefore the stat-boost"

I don't think this is clear; the book says characters get the roll, so champions in a warshrine army technically wouldn't get the roll. Literally champions in a warshine army are forced to issue/accept challenges with no benefit attatched. Both you and Neknoh are suggesting non-literal solutions, based on the assumption that chaos champions are implied to count as characters, but what is hard to agree on is to what lenght this implication can be maintained.

Atrahasis
19-01-2009, 12:49
Why do things get jammy? Because we are never told to count champions as characters in challenges.The very first paragraph of the rules for challenges say that while they talkabout characters, they also apply to champions.

Dark_Mage99
19-01-2009, 13:40
When the FAQ comes out, I think champions will count for EoTG. If they can issue and accept challenges for beneficial purposes, they must take the negatives with it - (Chaos people being blessed for killing them.)

loveless
19-01-2009, 13:54
When the FAQ comes out, I think champions will count for EoTG. If they can issue and accept challenges for beneficial purposes, they must take the negatives with it - (Chaos people being blessed for killing them.)

I'm guessing that they'll end up counting. Honestly, it's a bit stupid to have a special rule that handicaps the heroes more than helping them - you'll only get a chance to get a benefit 4 times per standard game (at most) with the current interpretation.

Look at the White Dwarf battle report - did that seem overpowered to any of you?

Ooh, and imagine fighting Vampire Counts if Unit Champions DID count for EotG. Fun times :p

As it stands, the intention with the Warshrine is obviously to let friendly unit champions gain a roll (ok, maybe not obviously...). Here we apply the term "character" to them, which opens it up to apply "character" to enemy unit champions.

Ugh...where's that FAQ?

Neckutter
19-01-2009, 13:59
chaos unit champions arent subject to EotG unless you have a warshrine on table.
therefore your chaos unit champions are not forced to challenge.
therefore they dont get to roll on the table if they kill an opposing character.
ALL unit champions act like characters in a challenge, read the rulebook.

easy, simple.

EDIT: and the battle report where EotG was rolled for killing unit champions was not overpowered in the slightest, imo.

nosferatu1001
19-01-2009, 14:56
Actuallly - no they don't act like* characters, and they do not count as* characters so you would not get a roll on the table for killing a unit champion. The EotG special rule clearly states characters, and there is no explanatory note (unlike the start of the Challenge section) stating that "character" is synonymous with "Champion" meaning only get a roll when you kill a character or large target.

*you are explicitly told "unit champions are not characters" meaning you need to find something that explicitly makes them characters for the purposes of a challenge - unfortunately the only thing it states is that they can accept and participate in them, not that they are actually counted as characters during a challenge. Besides, why would Khorne give a toss that you killed a slightly better swordsman? especially when Bob the empire lord is sitting around taking all the glory.

Onec you get the EotG rule you are forced to challenge, however going "RAI" I would say at this point if you do kill a character / large target a unit champion should get a roll.

loveless
19-01-2009, 15:03
Besides, why would Khorne give a toss that you killed a slightly better swordsman?

Because Khorne cares not from where the blood flows (only that it flows).

Come on, that was an easy one - you'll simply have to try harder :p

Neckutter
19-01-2009, 15:16
Actuallly - no they don't act like* characters, and they do not count as* characters so you would not get a roll on the table for killing a unit champion. The EotG special rule clearly states characters, and there is no explanatory note (unlike the start of the Challenge section) stating that "character" is synonymous with "Champion" meaning only get a roll when you kill a character or large target.

*you are explicitly told "unit champions are not characters" meaning you need to find something that explicitly makes them characters for the purposes of a challenge - unfortunately the only thing it states is that they can accept and participate in them, not that they are actually counted as characters during a challenge. Besides, why would Khorne give a toss that you killed a slightly better swordsman? especially when Bob the empire lord is sitting around taking all the glory.

Onec you get the EotG rule you are forced to challenge, however going "RAI" I would say at this point if you do kill a character / large target a unit champion should get a roll.

i never said they were characters. they act like characters in a challnge. "act" being the word that should be reread.

EDIT: and before you try to debate me on how they dont act like characters in a challnge; they accept the challenge like a character, they fight in and get killed in a challenge like a character. therefore-"acting" like a character.

nowhere did i say they were a character

Harwammer
19-01-2009, 15:28
The very first paragraph of the rules for challenges say that while they talkabout characters, they also apply to champions.

Actually it says this only for issueing/accepting challenges, not for fighting or overkill. We must abstract that champions follow the rules for fighting challenges and Overkill as suggested by the example in the rules and the FAQ.

Also guys this topic isn't really about if you get a roll for killing a champion, if you want to continue that stuff can you take it elsewhere?

This is about if a champion gets his EOTG roll, which I think he should if his mount can attack in a challenge!

alextroy
19-01-2009, 16:24
This is about if a champion gets his EOTG roll, which I think he should if his mount can attack in a challenge!

I'm not quite following this sentence, but here's what I think your asking:

1) Does a champions Mount get to fight in a Challenge? Yes. Weak wording aside, a champion participates in a challenge in exactly the same way as a character, including the ability to issue and accept them.

2) Does a Chaos Champion empowered with EoTG via Warshrine get to roll if he his mount killings the character he is fighting in a challenge? Yes.

Neckutter
19-01-2009, 17:00
a champion and his horse participates, because he and his mount are one model.

and i agree with alextroy on part #2

Havock
19-01-2009, 18:32
*you are explicitly told "unit champions are not characters" meaning you need to find something that explicitly makes them characters for the purposes of a challenge - unfortunately the only thing it states is that they can accept and participate in them, not that they are actually counted as characters during a challenge. Besides, why would Khorne give a toss that you killed a slightly better swordsman? especially when Bob the empire lord is sitting around taking all the glory.

To give Bob a reason not to hide behind his peasants unless he wants to face a stronger chaos lord at the end of it?
Also: how about a blood dragon unit champion? The thing is harder than an empire captain, who is quite pathetic really.

nosferatu1001
19-01-2009, 20:05
LIke do not act like characters, they follow some rules for them

they are also "not champions" as per their rules - so unless you can show how "has some rules" overrides "is not" then Champions are definitely not characters, and no roll for killing them.

A unit champion that gains the EotG would gain a roll for killing a character or large target; nothing else.

loveless
19-01-2009, 20:08
LIke do not act like characters, they follow some rules for them

they are also "not champions" as per their rules - so unless you can show how "has some rules" overrides "is not" then Champions are definitely not characters, and no roll for killing them.

A unit champion that gains the EotG would gain a roll for killing a character or large target; nothing else.

While I completely agree with you due to RAW, I still really hope they change the wording of EoTG in the FAQ...

nosferatu1001
20-01-2009, 08:55
I hope they do as well - killing anyone in a challenge, or a large target regardless, should give you a roll im my opinion.

It was how they played it in the batrep, however they can't be taken as intent / rules given the number of mistakes that have been made in them!