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punkoteloco
18-01-2009, 22:34
Well, another odd question came up today when a vampire player and his 10 bloodknights + 3 characters ( one of them a BSB ) unit got into combat. The BSB, as he didnt have space in the front row, he got to go to the second. In the RuleBook states that the unit cant benefit from the +1 for combat resolution, but it doesnt says anything about the magic banner... so he benefit from the regeneration banner on that unit.
And when he lost combat by four, in the VC book says that the crumble wounds does not allow you to take saving throws but it doesnt says anything about special saving throws or regen throws... so he took them...
Seems odd to me...
I have the rulebook in spanish so maybe the english one says different...
Thanks a lot

punkoteloco

Necromancy Black
18-01-2009, 23:05
Can't see anything to say the magic banner does or does not work in a back rank, though he most definitly would not receive the +1 bonus to CR for a BSB that is not in the front rank.

As for regeneration, yes, he played it right. Both War saves and regernation cna be taken against crumbling as per the rules in the VC. Don't worry, we all call is BS.

punkoteloco
18-01-2009, 23:13
Yeah, i mean, come on, they dont run or something, at least make them crumble without saves...
What happened with warhammer????

theunwantedbeing
18-01-2009, 23:21
Page 73, a character not in the fighting rank cannot use magical items.

So the drakenhof banner could not be used if he was retired to the second rank.

Condottiere
18-01-2009, 23:21
How wide was the frontage? Should have been sufficient space for 3 characters and two RNF.

Necromancy Black
18-01-2009, 23:24
Possibly he was trying to save his BSB from getting hit :p but as theunwantedbeing pointed out, you can't use magic items if your not in the front rank.

should've just retiered the musican to the back rank. No rule anywhere saying you can't use them if they are in the back rank.

Condottiere
18-01-2009, 23:27
I'm quite sure that character models can't be displaced from the front unless there's an overabundance of them.

mistermaster
18-01-2009, 23:27
Page 73, a character not in the fighting rank cannot use magical items.

So the drakenhof banner could not be used if he was retired to the second rank.

From my point of view the item is not being used. It grants a benefit to the whole unit. You donīt declare to use it or not.

Another example: If in the second rank is a vampire with black gold wristbrands, can the ward save be used if a cannonball hits him?

Harwammer
18-01-2009, 23:30
He is a big cheesemonkey who doesn't know the rules

"...as long as a character remains in the back ranks he cannot fight (even with a spear) or use magic or magic items..."

Page 73 under the Characters 'characters & units' section.

Condottiere
18-01-2009, 23:38
But is he using the Banner; is usage defined as both active (bound fireball spell released) and passive (a constant effect)? Though I'd say that regeneration is an active effect.

Harwammer
18-01-2009, 23:40
He is literally using the banner to give the unit regen.

theunwantedbeing
18-01-2009, 23:47
Items being passive or active is only a rule for models that are fleeing.
Being in the back ranks isn't down to the item being passive or whatever, it simply isnt usable, so its effect is not allowed to be applied.

Sucks to be a VC player but then again, 3 character's in a unit of blood knights with the regen banner and no doubt they had the 4+ ward vs shooting banner as well.

Also, if there was a Kastellan in the unit, declining the challenge is illegal.
Plus if the VC player charged the Kastellan is forced to challenge the enemy, so unless he got charged himself he was also doing something illegal.

Condottiere
18-01-2009, 23:50
Did I miss something in the rules? I'm quite sure that you aren't allowed to voluntarily place character models in the second rank unless there are more character models than there are slots in the front rank.

Harwammer
18-01-2009, 23:57
Did I miss something in the rules? I'm quite sure that you aren't allowed to voluntarily place character models in the second rank unless there are more character models than there are slots in the front rank.

You are correct; command models are also effectively characters in this respect too though so 3+3=6, more than enough models to fill a front rank.

Necromancy Black
19-01-2009, 00:35
Yeah, so he could legally chosoe to put one character back and leave 2 plus the command models in front. Had he had one less character or command model, then no, he wouldn't be able to have ahd a character in the rear ranks.

punkoteloco
19-01-2009, 01:06
He had full command and 3 characters in a 5 man front, so thats not illegal to put another character in the second row, but the whole banner thing seemed a little odd. Thanks for the clarification on the banner, seems we missed that part of magic items.
Another question though,regarding the marks of chaos, do you have to tell your opponent wich mark has the unit or you dont have to do it???

EldarBishop
19-01-2009, 01:15
He should have sent the musician back to the second rank...

But, ya, the rules state that characters must be in the front rank (Brettonnian Damsels in the centre of the Lance formation, and Skaven "Lead from behind" are the only two exceptions that I can think of).

Necromancy Black
19-01-2009, 01:15
This is a little different, as there is no clear cut ruling. Mostly, there should be something on the model so you can tell at sight (the old WYSIWYG). So if a unit is alot more red or are bright pink, you can have a good idea if they are Khorne or Slaanesh.

Really though, there's nothing forcing them to say that they definitly have the mark, but it should be represented on the model, just like models armed with shields should have a shield on the model. Some tournements or champains might force stuff like this to be reveiled but that's about it.

Of course if your empire you can just use that lovely crystal ball :p

Nurgling Chieftain
19-01-2009, 03:27
should've just retiered the musican to the back rank. No rule anywhere saying you can't use them if they are in the back rank.Sort of. Their "win on a tie" benefit (and their "tie if we both have a musician" benefit) only works when they're in the front rank. The only bonus a musician can give while not in the front rank is +1 to regroup - not terribly useful for vampire counts.

Necromancy Black
19-01-2009, 03:38
Ah cheers, missed that part.

sulla
19-01-2009, 04:06
He should have sent the musician back to the second rank...



...He shouldn't have even taken a kastellan. They are a huge liability with their must challenge rule (imagine if a dragon charged the unit). Then there is ample room in the front rank for 3 characters and the command.

Skywave
19-01-2009, 06:11
What I don't understand here is that he had 10 Blood Knight with 3 Characters and lost a combat? :confused: :wtf:

What the hell happened?

Condottiere
19-01-2009, 08:08
Rubber lances? Got attacked first? Magical support? If the attacker had a little luck and coordinated his units, it's quite possible.

larabic
19-01-2009, 08:49
I have a friend that does this eggs in one basket approach alot and annoys me to no end but i am almost certain i read in the BRB that unit command cannot be moved from the front... though he could just not buy a musician and problem solved, when i get home i will look up a page number for the rule... or correct myself since it is 4:30am and i may not be thinking clearly!

Griefbringer
19-01-2009, 10:05
He could also have deployed the unit 6 wide so all the characters and command models would fit in the front rank.

Necromancy Black
19-01-2009, 10:28
I have a friend that does this eggs in one basket approach alot and annoys me to no end but i am almost certain i read in the BRB that unit command cannot be moved from the front... though he could just not buy a musician and problem solved, when i get home i will look up a page number for the rule... or correct myself since it is 4:30am and i may not be thinking clearly!

No rule exist. There is simply a rule that if there is no room in the front either a command gorup model or character has too go to the back.


He could also have deployed the unit 6 wide so all the characters and command models would fit in the front rank.

True, but this makes it harder to get ranks as every rank but the last has to be the same size and while I've read rules allowing you to increase your rank size, there's nothing allowing you to decrease (short of rotating 90 degrees or such)

stripsteak
19-01-2009, 15:06
True, but this makes it harder to get ranks as every rank but the last has to be the same size and while I've read rules allowing you to increase your rank size, there's nothing allowing you to decrease (short of rotating 90 degrees or such)

pg14 change formation, and reform both allow you increase, or decreease your frontage...rotating also wouldn't decrease your ranks, just face your ranks to the side opening up your flank

Neckutter
19-01-2009, 15:22
Yeah, i mean, come on, they dont run or something, at least make them crumble without saves...
What happened with warhammer????

name a time in warhammer when undead fled after a break check? just be happy this isnt 4th edition where my wraiths get charged by you, you win combat and YOU have to take a break check because my wraiths are still alive.

@skywave i love your avatar pic. :)

alextroy
19-01-2009, 16:27
name a time in warhammer when undead fled after a break check?

When they lose combat to Harry the Hammer ;)

Neckutter
19-01-2009, 16:54
ah, yes the aberration that isnt official anymore. and was never legal to field against an undead army because he was too undercosted(so says his creators) :)

EldarBishop
19-01-2009, 17:00
iirc, Ghouls used to not be undead... so they'd break. I think the rule that they had was called (appropriately) "Alive!"

@Necromancy Black - You like'd that sentence did you? :D

Necromancy Black
19-01-2009, 22:45
Bah, thanks stripsteak. Been looking for that for ages but never found it.

And yes bishop, great line :D

Caine Mangakahia
20-01-2009, 01:30
ah, yes the aberration that isnt official anymore. and was never legal to field against an undead army because he was too undercosted(so says his creators) :)

He was broken though:)
He was bad enough against non undead armies.

Opponant: Want to play Undead vs HArry the Hammer?
Me (immediate reply): OK, you win. Awesome!

Hur! Hur!