PDA

View Full Version : Starting a Harlequin army, need lots of help!



Crowned
19-01-2009, 11:27
Okay, after 3 weeks of much termoil, I've decided to begin creating a Harlequin army, I know at this point a lot of you are cringing and desperate to call me an idiot, but bear with me.

These are the 2 Codexes, I'll be using one of them:

http://billnapier.nfshost.com/images/Harlequins.pdf -- Gav Thorpe's "Official" Unofficial Harlequin Codex from Citidel Journal #39 back in 2000.

http://www.nso-mod.com/files/Codex-Harlequins.pdf -- A more recent (2007) Fanmade Codex.

I have a few questions pertaining to them before I start, being out of the hobby for such a long time (6 years) means I'm taking a "if you don't ask, you don't know" mentality towards it and bombarding everyone I can (that means you!) with questions.

Luckily with the new Eldar most of the models are freely available so I won't have to become an awesome modeler to pull them off, the ones that are OOP are available on eBay (The Great Harlequin etc) for decent prices so I can utilise everything from both of the sources above ^, I'll be using Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes for a Jetbike Troupe if I take one, and a Raider to replace the Eldar Vyper model.

So to my questions:

1. Out of the 2 above Codexes, which do you think is best? Which would you use were you in my position?

2. Is Gav Thorpe's Codex so out of date that I'd be mental to try to make and play an army around it vs 5th ed armies? Is it even playable?

3. I'm looking for some tentative army lists, because I literally have no idea what other armies field like these days, if any of you could put together a 500, 1500 and 2000 pts playable "competitive" list for me I'd really appreciate it. I hate wasting money and I never collect more than one army, so I'm looking for good starting points to build up to.

4. Any other advice? Warnings are fine, as long as there's some intelligent fact backing them up rather than just "LOL NOOB UR GONNA GET WRECKED".

I think I'll have a better chance getting people to play regularly against my Harley's if I use Gav's Codex, purely because a published Codex pulls a lot more weight than a fanmade one (which in my experience are generally met with ire because they'll use it as an excuse if they lose). As such I'd prefer to use his, but I'm sort of worried that the age of it will mean a lot of the pts costs and stats are off, that said, the Dark Eldar aren't much newer, and they're still effective?

I know some people might try to put me off this idea, but I'm weird and this is really the only way I'm gonna get long term satisfaction from my army.

TIA for any help you guys can provide!

IJW
19-01-2009, 12:24
I think I'll have a better chance getting people to play regularly against my Harley's if I use Gav's Codex, purely because a published Codex pulls a lot more weight than a fanmade one (which in my experience are generally met with ire because they'll use it as an excuse if they lose).
Much as I dislike admitting it, a pure Harlequin army is probably best represented with a Witch Elf Cult list from the DE Codex. Zero problems with 'officialness' and it's still a pretty hard-hitting list. I doubt you'd find many people willing to play against the 3rd ed. Journal list.

Crowned
19-01-2009, 12:29
Much as I dislike admitting it, a pure Harlequin army is probably best represented with a Witch Elf Cult list from the DE Codex. Zero problems with 'officialness' and it's still a pretty hard-hitting list. I doubt you'd find many people willing to play against the 3rd ed. Journal list.

Isn't the DE Codex itself just as old?

brightblade
19-01-2009, 12:35
I say "go on!" The world needs more ambition!

I have a harlequin army from back in the RT 40k compendium days.
Ahhh, robots. :chrome:
Keep us informed, are you doing a project log?

The only thing I would say is; decide on an overall painting style and 'uniform' (for want of a better word) before you start, to tie your troupe together.

Man I love my Harlequins. They only come out for Apocalypse these days.

samiens
19-01-2009, 12:36
Yes but it is legal- the problem is plenty of players won't want to play against an unofficial codex! Looking at the background I would go for rangers as troops from the Eldar codex as they often work together and then take 3 full harlie units as elites which won't leave you too much else. You could always take an autarch or phoenix lord as a grand harlequin...

Crowned
19-01-2009, 12:42
I say "go on!" The world needs more ambition!

I have a harlequin army from back in the RT 40k compendium days.
Ahhh, robots. :chrome:
Keep us informed, are you doing a project log?

The only thing I would say is; decide on an overall painting style and 'uniform' (for want of a better word) before you start, to tie your troupe together.

Man I love my Harlequins. They only come out for Apocalypse these days.

I'll probably do a project log once I start going, but I doubt it'll be much more than a painting showcase, I'm not that into (nor am I good at) modelling so I doubt there'll be much of that bar perhaps a few bits and bobs on the Dark Eldar models (there are some Harlequin jetbike faceplates on eBay that I'm just desperate to use on my Raider(s)). The Harlequin's background already is perfect for me (I really dig the Black Library defender concept) so I'm not intending to deviate into some sort of wild spin-off Masque. I do intend to do a lot of Battle Reports (with pictures!) since I know I eat them up and hopefully others will too.

As for the painting scheme, I have something in mind, I'll stick pretty closely to some old schemes from old WD's, but I do want to add a little bit of Dark Eldar flair to represent my army's ties to them, I'd like my Masque to be a regular visitor to Commorragh rather than Craftworlds/Maiden Worlds (hence the use of Dark Eldar vehicles as opposed to the more common Eldar renditions).

brightblade
19-01-2009, 13:20
That sounds really cool. The moral ambiguity of Harlequins is a major draw to me. Are you thinking of including the old classics like solitaires too? I loved the figures. Shame they don't make new ones given how sculpting has moved on.

Hmmm. Think you maybe giving me ideas. New solitaire. Hmmm. Given all the plastics that are around the opportunity for conversion is massive.

I have an old Harlequin jetbike with the laughing face bonnet. In fact I recently repainted and rebased it looks great (The model, not necessarily my painting! lol);)

edit; just noticed that you are gonna stick with the old themes. I painted my Harlequins to match the cover of the box they came in. Do you remember the old box? Sure the artwork is around. It took forever. Man. I think I may start working on those again.

Crowned
19-01-2009, 13:28
That sounds really cool. The moral ambiguity of Harlequins is a major draw to me. Are you thinking of including the old classics like solitaires too? I loved the figures. Shame they don't make new ones given how sculpting has moved on.

Hmmm. Think you maybe giving me ideas. New solitaire. Hmmm. Given all the plastics that are around the opportunity for conversion is massive.

I have an old Harlequin jetbike with the laughing face bonnet. In fact I recently repainted and rebased it looks great (The model not necessarily my painting! lol);)

I've already tagged a Great Harlequin and a Solitaire on eBay, they're the only models that are OOP that I need, I doubt I'll paint the former for a while though because I need to get rid of my painting cobwebs before I challenge a Harlequin centrepiece. :p

I saw those Jetbikes on eBay too but if I do end up taking a squad, it's gonna get very costly since they're rare, metal and expensive, so I'll stick with the DE ones, trying to avoid them if possible though, never been a fan of Jetbikes at all tbh XD

Edit: I don't really remember them but I have a few WD's with schemes in, I'm gonna do some stripe/diamond patterns but not too many because they take forever.

Crowned
19-01-2009, 16:48
Yes but it is legal- the problem is plenty of players won't want to play against an unofficial codex! Looking at the background I would go for rangers as troops from the Eldar codex as they often work together and then take 3 full harlie units as elites which won't leave you too much else. You could always take an autarch or phoenix lord as a grand harlequin...

I wouldn't say that many players will have a big problem, AFAIK the Codex isn't considered overpowered and in my experience most people like seeing rare/unorthodox armies in action. It probably sounds like a strange choice but I love Harlequins to bits and I know I'll adore them.

Anyone else got any other advice/help for me?

Lord Damocles
19-01-2009, 17:24
1. Out of the 2 above Codexes, which do you think is best? Which would you use were you in my position?
Codex: Eldar.
A Harlequin Troupe can be made just fine, and has the added benefit of using proper rules which nobody can dispute.


2. Is Gav Thorpe's Codex so out of date that I'd be mental to try to make and play an army around it vs 5th ed armies? Is it even playable?
That experimental list was/is mentally broken.
Pistol + Power Blades + Kiss > everything.

The addition of the stupidly cheap wraithlords didn't help either...


3. I'm looking for some tentative army lists, because I literally have no idea what other armies field like these days, if any of you could put together a 500, 1500 and 2000 pts playable "competitive" list for me I'd really appreciate it. I hate wasting money and I never collect more than one army, so I'm looking for good starting points to build up to.
My Harlequin Troupe:

Jain Zar 190 (Great Harlequin)

10 harlies 268
- Shadow Seer
- Troupe Master (pw)
- Death Jester
- 7 Kisses

10 harlies 264
- Shadow Seer
- Troupe Master (pw)
- Death Jester
- 6 Kisses

10 harlies 264
- Shadow Seer
- Troupe Master (pw)
- Death Jester
- 6 Kisses

10 Storm Guardians 92 (Chorus)
- 2 Fusion Guns

10 Storm Guardians 92
- 2 Fusion Guns

Wraithlord 100
- 2 Flamers
- Wraithsword

Wraithlord 100
- 2 Flamers
- Wraithsword

Vyper 65
- Missile Launcher

Vyper 65
- Missile Launcher


1500pts



4. Any other advice? Warnings are fine, as long as there's some intelligent fact backing them up rather than just "LOL NOOB UR GONNA GET WRECKED".
Seriously, use the standard Eldar Codex. Nobody can refuse to play or complain about a list written from an official codex.
(Well, OK, they can complain, but less so than with a 3rd edition experimental list or fandex).

Spell_of_Destruction
19-01-2009, 17:59
I would like to reiterate Lord Damocles advice - that's exactly the kind of list I would have posted.

Other possibilities:- Shining Spears can be used to represent Harlequins on jetbikes. Farseers to represent more powerful Shadowseers. Dark Reapers to represent Death Jesters (the Harlequin squad add on is crap let's face it!).

Patriarch
19-01-2009, 18:09
You can use 1 bunch of models, and different army lists - the official CE or Wych armies with proxied Harlequins for competitive/pick-up games, or the "unofficial" version for friendly games/opponent doesn't mind.

I did the same thing, scouring eBay for OOP Harlequins to build a large army as I liked them when they first appeared (WD105?). I managed to buy them all at huge prices before GW brought out the new ones and the prices crashed. D'oh! One of these days I'll get round to painting them up.

Oh yes, and another vote for you doing a painting log...I may want to steal your ideas...

brotherhostower
19-01-2009, 18:13
I'm in agreement with Damocles & Spell, though my own preference is for Asurmen as a Great Harlequin, and Jain Zar as Solitaire and, after seeing the Gav THorpe'dex Wraithlords in action, I'd avoid them, but that's just me and a few bad experiences with D-Cannon armed wraithlords *shudder*

Crowned
19-01-2009, 18:38
I'm in agreement with Damocles & Spell, though my own preference is for Asurmen as a Great Harlequin, and Jain Zar as Solitaire and, after seeing the Gav THorpe'dex Wraithlords in action, I'd avoid them, but that's just me and a few bad experiences with D-Cannon armed wraithlords *shudder*

The Gav Thorpe Codex I have (linked in the first post) doesn't even have Wraithlords... Am I missing something? Did he release a newer Codex for Harlequins? I thought Phil Kelly did the Eldar one?

dahli.llama
19-01-2009, 18:50
You could always do a "counts-as" list and just use the basic Eldar stat line with Harlequin models. Harlequins, Jetbikes, Storm Guardians, Falcons, Wave Serpents. The Solitaire could be done as the Avatar, and you could do a Great Harlequin as a Farseer.

Crowned
19-01-2009, 18:52
I understand the suggestions of a counts-as list for Eldar or Dark Eldar, I did seriously consider it, but it's always been my dream to make a pure Harlequin army, and I don't think I'd do it justice by using substitutes and buckling it together, I want it to be the real deal.

Anyway, however you feel about it I'd prefer stuff towards the initial questions :p

Spell_of_Destruction
19-01-2009, 19:18
Understood and ultimately it's your army. If the primary aim is to collect and paint a Harlequin army to use against your friends then go with the Gav Thorpe list. The rules are perfectly compatible with 5th ed as far as I can see.

If however you intend to collect the army to use on the tabletop then you might struggle to find people willing to play against a list that isn't official (and widely regarded as unbalanced). A fan made list is especially difficult to play with particularly if it is not well balances. People might play you once for novelty and then decide they would rather play games against "real" lists. I would steer clear to be honest.

I don't really think that using "counts as" is a massive departure from a "pure" harlequin list. Most of your points will be tied up in Harlequins anyway. Storm Guardians perfectly represent the chorus. I don't think anyone is saying "just play Craftworld Eldar and use harlequins as counts as models". They are saying that by carefully choosing certain units from the CE codex you can make a fairly authentic pure Harlequin list.

Hope that helps.

brightblade
19-01-2009, 19:26
Have you seen the old army list in the RT compendium? Interesting stuff. Totally with you on making your own list rather than a counts as army. I would have no problem playing against it but others might. edit: but at the same time using song of destructions suggestion is the best way round it.

By the way, just spent the afternoon rebasing my old High Avatar. Gorgeous. Now look what you have done! Gonna have to do the other fifty odd now. :)

IJW
19-01-2009, 19:41
The Gav Thorpe Codex I have (linked in the first post) doesn't even have Wraithlords... Am I missing something? Did he release a newer Codex for Harlequins? I thought Phil Kelly did the Eldar one?
The next issue of the Journal included rules for Wraithlords.

When the 4th ed. Eldar codex came out I spent a long time looking at different variations using counts as and units like Storm Guardians, but to be brutally honest it just didn't 'feel' like a Harlequin army and I gave up and ended up reverting to a Harlequin-heavy footslogging list. Changes to CC in 5th edition mean that not only doesn't it feel right but it's pretty bad in game terms as well. :(

Crowned
19-01-2009, 20:08
I've just picked up Citadel Journal's #39 and #44, and I already have Gav Thorpe's online version, I should have everything I need to be ready now, I lost the Great Harlequin but won the Solitaire, gonna order a box of 6 Harlequin's from The Battle Shop and get going. :)

Oh, and brightblade, post some pics!

Crowned
20-01-2009, 10:49
The next issue of the Journal included rules for Wraithlords.

When the 4th ed. Eldar codex came out I spent a long time looking at different variations using counts as and units like Storm Guardians, but to be brutally honest it just didn't 'feel' like a Harlequin army and I gave up and ended up reverting to a Harlequin-heavy footslogging list. Changes to CC in 5th edition mean that not only doesn't it feel right but it's pretty bad in game terms as well. :(

Could you elaborate on that last part for me? Anything helps.

Also, is the experimental Thorpe Codex really that overpowered? =/

IJW
20-01-2009, 12:16
Could you elaborate on that last part for me? Anything helps.

Hmm. I tried to find my old thread in the Army Lists forum, but it must have been on Eldar Online instead of Warseer... edit - found it (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50930). Not that useful, though. :(

The main problem is Troops choices. You basically have:
Ranger/Pathfinder allies. Actually improved slightly in 5th, but they still aren't Harlequins of any description.
Storm Guardians as Chorus/trainee Harlequins. Add in a Warlock with Conceal or Enhance as a trainee Shadowseer and they almost fit well in terms of feel, apart from being a CC unit that is bad in CC.
Guardian Jetbikes as ???

Then the Harlequins themselves got noticeably weaker in 5th - not due to changes in Rending but from counter-attack moves and no kill zones. In 4th ed. Harlequin mostly worked by contacting a small number of the enemy and wiping out everyone within 2", with no one left to strike back. In 5th the rest of the target unit gets to pile in, and casualties come from anywhere - leaving the Harlequins depending on T3 and a 5++ save to stop them being turned into jam. Some of the same also applies to Storm Guardians.

Actually, I just had another idea for Troops - Death Jesters with Shuriken Cannon as Dire Avengers. A bit of a stretch in terms of range, on the other hand RT-era DJs had the same save as Dire Avengers and DAs are enough better in combat than Guardians to make them feel more like Harlequins. If you're using old DJ models you could still have the Lascannon/Brightlance models to use with Dark Reaper rules.

Add in Shining Spears as Harlequin Jetbikes, Phoenix Lords as Great Harlequins/Solitaires and Wraithlords* and it's not looking as bad as I remembered. :)

*Note - even though Harlequin Dreadnoughts/Wraithlords have existed in the game just as long as Harlequins have, expect complaints about using them. :eyebrows:

Crowned
20-01-2009, 12:27
Hmm. I tried to find my old thread in the Army Lists forum, but it must have been on Eldar Online instead of Warseer... edit - found it (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50930). Not that useful, though. :(

The main problem is Troops choices. You basically have:
Ranger/Pathfinder allies. Actually improved slightly in 5th, but they still aren't Harlequins of any description.
Storm Guardians as Chorus/trainee Harlequins. Add in a Warlock with Conceal or Enhance as a trainee Shadowseer and they almost fit well in terms of feel, apart from being a CC unit that is bad in CC.
Guardian Jetbikes as ???

Then the Harlequins themselves got noticeably weaker in 5th - not due to changes in Rending but from counter-attack moves and no kill zones. In 4th ed. Harlequin mostly worked by contacting a small number of the enemy and wiping out everyone within 2", with no one left to strike back. In 5th the rest of the target unit gets to pile in, and casualties come from anywhere - leaving the Harlequins depending on T3 and a 5++ save to stop them being turned into jam. Some of the same also applies to Storm Guardians.

Actually, I just had another idea for Troops - Death Jesters with Shuriken Cannon as Dire Avengers. A bit of a stretch in terms of range, on the other hand RT-era DJs had the same save as Dire Avengers and DAs are enough better in combat than Guardians to make them feel more like Harlequins. If you're using old DJ models you could still have the Lascannon/Brightlance models to use with Dark Reaper rules.

Add in Shining Spears as Harlequin Jetbikes, Phoenix Lords as Great Harlequins/Solitaires and Wraithlords* and it's not looking as bad as I remembered. :)

*Note - even though Harlequin Dreadnoughts/Wraithlords have existed in the game just as long as Harlequins have, expect complaints about using them. :eyebrows:

In your opinion, how would you expect pure Harlequin's from the list I linked to (including the Wraithlord if you like) would perform against the current setup of opposing armies? Specifically in games like 1000-2000pts.

I'm not asking from a standpoint of wanting to win every game, but are they capable? Are they overpowered? I don't have access to anything to really compare the Harley Codex to, so looking at the facts, what do you think?

I'd like an army at least capable of winning, but an unofficial codex that is overpowered is... worrying to say the least. That really may offer a problem.

brightblade
20-01-2009, 13:21
"Oh, and brightblade, post some pics!"

was just thinking that I should get around to putting some pics on. i will sort it out.

All these ideas of counts as are really interesting too. Think I may be drawn into this. lol/:D

Brother Loki
20-01-2009, 18:06
Just to add to the confusion there's a 5th edition Harlequin codex in the downloads section of www.tempusfugitives.co.uk. It's unofficial, but it's the one used at the Warhammer World campaign weekends, and is designed by GW staff. Might want to take a look at that.

terrornid
20-01-2009, 18:44
I got this from my favorite 40k blog.

2000 Pts - Eldar Roster - Elfzilla

1 Avatar
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; Deamon; Inspiring; Molten Body; Wailing Doom (WD)

1 Eldrad Ulthran
Psyker; Doom ; Eldritch Storm ; Fortune ; Guide ; Mind War ; Divination; Fleet; Independent Character; Ghost Helm (GH); Rune Armour (RAmr); Runes of Warding (RofWard); Runes of Witnessing (RofWit); Spirit Stones (P:SpStn); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB); Staff of Ulthamar (SofU)

10 Wraithguard
Fearless; WraithSight; Wraithcannon (WC) (x10)
1 Spiritseer (Warlock)
Psyker; Conceal ; Fleet; Spiritseer Upgrade; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 WP Conceal @ [0] Pts

10 Pathfinders (Rangers)
Fleet; Infiltrate; Move Through Cover; Stealth; Ignore Difficult Terrain; Pathfinder Stealth; Scouts; Pathfinders; Shuriken Pistol (Sp) (x10); Ranger Long Rifle (RLRifle)

6 Harlequin Troupe
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Close Combat Weapon (x1); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss) (x5); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Shuriken Pistol (x4); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Death Jester
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequin Shrieker Cannon (HSC); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Shadow Seer
Psyker; Veil Of Tears ; Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Troupe Master
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Power Weapon; Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Hallucinogen Grenades

6 Harlequin Troupe
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Close Combat Weapon (x1); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss) (x5); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Shuriken Pistol (x4)
1 Harle Death Jester
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequin Shrieker Cannon (HSC)
1 Harle Shadow Seer
Psyker; Veil Of Tears ; Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss); Shuriken Pistol (Sp)
1 Harle Troupe Master
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Power Weapon; Shuriken Pistol (Sp)

1 Wraithlord
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; WraithSight; Flamer (x2); Bright Lance (BL); Missile Launcher (ML)

1 Wraithlord
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; WraithSight; Flamer (x2); Bright Lance (BL); Missile Launcher (ML)

1 Wraithlord
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; WraithSight; Flamer (x2); Bright Lance (BL); Missile Launcher (ML)

Total Roster Cost: 1998

I used the Harlequin jet bike cowls for my Wraithlords.

Crowned
20-01-2009, 18:44
Just to add to the confusion there's a 5th edition Harlequin codex in the downloads section of www.tempusfugitives.co.uk. It's unofficial, but it's the one used at the Warhammer World campaign weekends, and is designed by GW staff. Might want to take a look at that.

wow thanks a lot for that :o

Still think I'll have a better shot with the Thorpe ones but I'll definitely look over this. Do you think it's more balanced?

Nobody has even told me if the Thorpe Codex is overpowered yet :(

brightblade
20-01-2009, 19:20
Hey hey, Crowned. Uploaded some pics. They are in my photo album, not just harlies but a few bits and bobs. Hope you like them.:)

Crowned
20-01-2009, 19:27
Hey hey, Crowned. Uploaded some pics. They are in my photo album, not just harlies but a few bits and bobs. Hope you like them.:)

That bike looks awesome, such a sweet model, great paintjob!

I'm glad I got you back into your Harleys, but I'm currently waining a bit now after some consideration and leaning towards Daemonhunters ;_;

brightblade
20-01-2009, 19:35
Ha Ha. So many choices! Daemonhunters are real cool too. Choosing your army is real hard. I paint what I like but my love is Eldar. I am going to rebase and touch up all my Harlies now so at the least you have reminded me how much I love them. So some good has come of it even if you do turn to the Mon Keigh!;):p

P.S. Thanks for saying you liked the bike. Put a big smile on my face.:D

Crowned
20-01-2009, 19:56
Ha Ha. So many choices! Daemonhunters are real cool too. Choosing your army is real hard. I paint what I like but my love is Eldar. I am going to rebase and touch up all my Harlies now so at the least you have reminded me how much I love them. So some good has come of it even if you do turn to the Mon Keigh!;):p

P.S. Thanks for saying you liked the bike. Put a big smile on my face.:D

Well I sort of do want to participate in Tournaments down the line at some point, and since battling is my main source of fun - the idea of having to use an unofficial Codex and having people (rightly I guess) refuse to play against me really turns me off.

That said, I still do want to be a bit more individual, pure DH/WH would be official and usable in Tournaments, admittedly not that powerful but at least I'd be somewhat unique since most people use them as allies or ally other Imperium forces. I have seen quite a few WH forces seem to turn up at Tourneys tho, so I dunno.

Lots more thinking to do XD