PDA

View Full Version : Dark Angels?



Khaine775
19-01-2009, 14:11
Hello there.

I've been looking at the DA tactica, but that hasn't helped me as much as I wanted it to.

I'm just wondering what the basic differences between "normal" Space Marines and Dark Angels are, and what the Dark Angels are good at?

AUN'SHI
19-01-2009, 14:25
Id say if your not useing the specialized DA abilities aka the death wing/raven wing then your better of using the regular space marine army.

Death wing armies are pertty tought. Terminators being troops is a good thing.

Also the raven wing is also a good list.

But if your not going specialized then you might as well be regular marines.

Mozzamanx
19-01-2009, 14:28
Dark Angels are more expensive for almost everything, but have the odd perk to make up for it. Tactical squads are generally 20pts more, but can take a special weapon with just 5 men. Ravenwing can get 3 scoring units (some will argue 4) with a single FOC slot. We get awesome Techmarines, who can outfight some HQs at half the cost.

==Me==
19-01-2009, 16:06
There are a few minor differences, but nothing really makes up for every unit costing more than the SM equivalent. The best build for DA is a Deathwing/Ravenwing mix, otherwise you're just better off with the SM list.

Inquisitor Engel
19-01-2009, 16:21
You're forgetting that the Deathwing doesn't differentiate between Assault and "normal" Terminator squads, meaning you can throw in Thunderhammers with those powerfists, or even have a heavy flamer and assault cannon with your lightning claws (which is pretty scary to be honest)

RevenantX
19-01-2009, 16:27
It's true that the standard units cost a little bit more than their Space Marine counterparts but this is made up for (a little) by adding more flexibility to the list, and the Deathwing-Ravenwing synergy cannot be overlooked; those are two great tastes that taste great together.

Also, to balance the budget, Dark Angel characters are typically less expensive and better than their vanilla counterparts; compare Belial's cost and abilities with a Space Marine captain with the same equipment, or the fact the chaplin (for the same number of points) gets an extra BS, Init and Attack, the latter two stats are a huge increase in ability for what you want the chaplin to do (beat the stuffing out of tau). The Librarians are a tough call, because they serve different purposes: the SM Librarian is a sort of a swiss army knife while the DA Librarian is built to fight on the front lines with his brethren, especially Ezekiel.

Now, the real issue here is that the two armies are not interchangeable. The DA army is not built to do what the SM army does and vice versa, keep that in mind.

HsojVvad
19-01-2009, 17:01
Try going to B and C. I would provide a link, but I don't think we are alowd to provide links to other sites. Lots of good DA advice over there at Bolter and Chain web site.

PM me I will send you a link if you like.

MasterGideon
19-01-2009, 17:07
The DA are is a marine army at the end of the day, true some of there bits cost a little more, but at the end of the day you can still cram in enough marines to cause people problems

and having 4 LC with a assualt cannon in a DW squad is a god send!


MasterGideon

MasterGideon
19-01-2009, 17:17
The DA are is a marine army at the end of the day, true some of there bits cost a little more, but at the end of the day you can still cram in enough marines to cause people problems

and having 4 LC with a assualt cannon in a DW squad is a god send!


MasterGideon

Atomic Rooster
19-01-2009, 17:20
Dark Angels are more shooty than most other marines, but are still very similar to Ultramarines. Dark Angels are also known for having more plasma weapons than most, but not to the extent that Salamanders use meltas & flamers.

Even though DAs are shooty, they still use battle companys and have the regular number of assault marines.

Some things you won't notice from just the army list: Compared to Ultramarines, DAs are LESS likely to have bike and speeder support, but when they do get such support it would be en mass. The same goes for Terminators.

In the end, you basically have Ultramarines with different fluff and with substituted special units.

BigBadBull
19-01-2009, 17:53
Also don't forget that the DA Lib's still have the Psychic hoods that work on the whole table instead of 24" in the new marine codex. The Psychic powers are lame,except on Ezzy...

Also DA have the Uber Chaplins too.

The mix of Assault and Shooty termies is good, but you can only have 5 man squads with one Heavy weapon, and the missile packs still only have one shot instead of two.

All Raven wing bikes Automatically have Teleport homers ( including attack bikes).
Assault cannons are more expensive on the Landspeeders than the marine codex.

Grand Master Raziel
19-01-2009, 18:12
The idea that Dark Angels are any more shooty than any other SM chapter is sort of a lingering carry-over perception from 3rd edition, when DA armies could have plasma cannons in their Tac Squads, which no one else's SM army could do. These days, they're no more or less shooty than any other SM chapter. If anything, they may be slightly less shooty, as an army built around Codex: Space Marines will be able to spend less points for the same units, thereby having a little bit more stuff in the end.

If you want to play a Dark Angels army without the prospect being almost identical to simply taking a 50-100pts handicap, then you want to play with the Deathwing and Ravenwing elements. I'm not saying that you have to play a pure Doublewing army, but if you have a Ravenwing Attack Squadron and a Deathwing Terminator Squad in your list, then you're getting access to abilities that SM players don't get. Also, if you use Sammael or Belial, then your Ravenwing Squadrons or Deathwing squadrons (respectively) can become Troops choices and be scoring units. In particular, scoring Ravenwing Squadrons are quite sexy, because they're extremely fast, and also because the Attack Bikes you can buy with the squadron function independantly [i]and/[i] are scoring units. Having scoring units that are that fast and that cheap is nothing to be sneezed at. Also, Sammael is a damn sexy character - expensive points-wise, but he's just plain awesome. At least, his jetbike-riding incarnation is. I don't have any personal experience with the flying Land Raider version.

Starchild
19-01-2009, 18:29
I'm just wondering what the basic differences between "normal" Space Marines and Dark Angels are, and what the Dark Angels are good at?

Dark Angels are the best looking chapter, in my opinion. Only Space Wolves and Black Templars come close to DA in terms of having a theme going; Ultramarines used to have a Grecian-Roman theme, but that's been downplayed so all the Codex chapters are just cookie-cutter SMs in different colours. :eyebrows:

There are other facets to the hobby; army lists and rules are only one facet. Some of us get more out of painting and modeling! So if you're looking for good looking Space Marines, the Dark Angels are among the best. :skull:

isidril93
19-01-2009, 19:11
true...bt and da (and to some extent sw) have the best models.
for DA take a double wing

Arcadian
19-01-2009, 19:55
Dark Angels are the best looking chapter, in my opinion. Only Space Wolves and Black Templars come close to DA in terms of having a theme going; Ultramarines used to have a Grecian-Roman theme, but that's been downplayed so all the Codex chapters are just cookie-cutter SMs in different colours. :eyebrows:

There are other facets to the hobby; army lists and rules are only one facet. Some of us get more out of painting and modeling! So if you're looking for good looking Space Marines, the Dark Angels are among the best. :skull:

I'm right there with you!! I also think the DA sculpts are some of the best. Its my opinion, because the design style really 'clicks' with me and my imagination. For a buddy of mine the exact same thing could be said word for word, except place the Word 'Necron' in there instead of DA.
The main motivation for my 'Erelim' Splinter chapter of the DA was mostly motivated by wanting to really paint and use these minis. I am not really sure I am all that into the DW or the RW aspects of DA though, and so I am that off-center kinda guy who really wants to use the DA models and such, and even the DA Codex for playing, but my army is honestly mroe like a vanilla SM army than a classic DA one or its varients. Of course, I play for fun with friends and have never played in a GW tourney.. only some at the ole shop I used to work at.. and we really did more campaigns than tourneys.

Khaine775
19-01-2009, 20:04
Thanks everyone for those very useful replies!

I'm not going to play DA though but I have an upcoming game against a 1750pts army of DA's, and was merely wondering what my Daemons had to take into the bag tactics-wise :)

mughi3
19-01-2009, 23:19
Well if this is any indication,
i play DW. at the Seattle GT there were 3 pure DW armies, 1 DW heavy multi-wing list and zero standard "green-wing" armies.


The main reason of course is that C:SM can do everything you can do with a standard force(and even ravenwing) and better for less points.

Sure we may get the old smoke rules and a table filling psychic hood but our psychic powers are terrible, almost all of our units are more expensive and have older less effective rules.

There is a reason why we now refer to it as "codex deathwing".


I agree with an above poster sammael is our best character, he is currently even better than out chapter supreme grand master. however as nifty as his speeder is, with the new vehicle rules your actually better off taking his jetbike instead as it is more survivable in 5th edition.

AngryAngel
20-01-2009, 00:24
The DA have a bunch of diffrences that was recently summed up in another thread but here they are again.

Our venerable dread is more cost efficent but with a worse bs and ws then vanilla ven dreads. Our techmarines are better tooled to lower the beat in CC. Our bike sgts still have 2 weapons so can get an extra attack if they do end up in CC. Our chaplains and libbies have better CC and shooting stats. With higher base init. All our company masters have rites of battle which vanilla marines lost.

We have the ability to field scoring terms as troops. We have the ability to have a good amount of fearless marines around. Our psychic hoods are better then vanilla marines but our libby powers are kinda crap. Sammael is a sweet character with two very viable combat versions and is awesome.

We still have the old smoke, which some people actually rather enjoy. Our standard bikes are pretty nice and have a strong synergy with the our terms.

We have a nice model line and our company vets are a sort of cross breed with sternguard and vanguard vets in the vanilla dex.

With the old machine spirit rules we don't need to auto buy extra armor for a LR we have.

We miss out on some price drops and new rules for equipment. Which does suck, don't get me wrong. However even without this DA battle company lists are still effective just not as effective perhaps as the vanilla dex lists. Add in the ravenwing and deathwing and they should help to fill the gaps some.

As for another place having better DA related advice. You won't find better anywhere on the web. At the Dark Angel tacita we know, DA.

Grand Master Raziel
20-01-2009, 05:11
We have a nice model line and our company vets are a sort of cross breed with sternguard and vanguard vets in the vanilla dex.

I'd like to elaborate on Company Vets a little bit. CVs are probably the best power armored veteran Space Marine squad in any loyalist SM book that's been published since 3rd edition. Mat Ward tried too hard to improve on Company Vets, and IMO went overboard and missed the mark. Basically, Sternguard Veterans are bolter-armed Company Vets with magic bullets and are +5pts per model, and Vanguard Vets are Company Vets with pistol-ccw, the option of taking jump packs, and occupy a Fast Attack slot instead of an Elite slot. I'd rather have the one flexible unit than the two hyper-specialized ones.

march10k
20-01-2009, 05:49
Ravenwing can get 3 scoring units (some will argue 4) with a single FOC slot. We get awesome Techmarines, who can outfight some HQs at half the cost.

Uh...it is four. The fact that GW-sponsored tournaments specifically disallow the fourth one pretty much says it all. The rules say it's scoring, and GW has had, what, three (?!?) opportunities to errata or FAQ it in the DA PDF since 5th came out...and has chosen not to. Support squadrons, OTOH, are not scoring, even though the same model is involved. ~shrug~ I guess that's like a bolter-armed space marine in a devastator squad not scoring, even though he's identical to a bolter-armed space marine in a tactical squad.

The techie is exceptional...I've rarely fielded one, but he's ALWAYS turned in an exceptional performance...including krumping a necron lord in one memorable duel...


There are a few minor differences, but nothing really makes up for every unit costing more than the SM equivalent. The best build for DA is a Deathwing/Ravenwing mix, otherwise you're just better off with the SM list.


You're forgetting that the Deathwing doesn't differentiate between Assault and "normal" Terminator squads, meaning you can throw in Thunderhammers with those powerfists, or even have a heavy flamer and assault cannon with your lightning claws (which is pretty scary to be honest)



and having 4 LC with a assualt cannon in a DW squad is a god send!


Try a heavy flamer with 4xLCs stepping off an assault ramp with an interrogator chaplain and the deathwing standard!


Dark Angels are more shooty than most other marines, but are still very similar to Ultramarines. Dark Angels are also known for having more plasma weapons than most, but not to the extent that Salamanders use meltas & flamers.

Even though DAs are shooty, they still use battle companys and have the regular number of assault marines.

Some things you won't notice from just the army list: Compared to Ultramarines, DAs are LESS likely to have bike and speeder support, but when they do get such support it would be en mass. The same goes for Terminators.

In the end, you basically have Ultramarines with different fluff and with substituted special units.

Well, that's a great 3rd edition summary! ;)


Also don't forget that the DA Lib's still have the Psychic hoods that work on the whole table instead of 24" in the new marine codex. The Psychic powers are lame,except on Ezzy...

Also DA have the Uber Chaplins too.

The mix of Assault and Shooty termies is good, but you can only have 5 man squads with one Heavy weapon, and the missile packs still only have one shot instead of two.

All Raven wing bikes Automatically have Teleport homers ( including attack bikes).
Assault cannons are more expensive on the Landspeeders than the marine codex.

Actually, Azzy's unique power is the lamest of all. I'd take him for the table-wide LD10 psychic hood, though! Oh, and DA apothecaries work under different rules, as does DA smoke.

bevulf
20-01-2009, 06:50
Dark Angels are the best looking chapter, in my opinion. Only Space Wolves and Black Templars come close to DA in terms of having a theme going; Ultramarines used to have a Grecian-Roman theme, but that's been downplayed so all the Codex chapters are just cookie-cutter SMs in different colours. :eyebrows:

There are other facets to the hobby; army lists and rules are only one facet. Some of us get more out of painting and modeling! So if you're looking for good looking Space Marines, the Dark Angels are among the best. :skull:

You are 100% right - I play dark angels mainly because I like their fluff. Most secretive of all marines, dark appearance - this is what makes them extremely unique. Playing rules are second in my opinion to that. I haven't won many battles with my army but the pleasure of painting them is really satisfactory and makes up for all the losses :)

Maybe you should ask yourself what is more important to you - the look of the models or the rules for playing them...

MasterGideon
20-01-2009, 07:45
Second on that statement! And well me and my mates are running a campaing atm, out of the 5 games Ive played so far Ive beaten A very shooty Tau, A Very Assault Heavy Blood Angels Army, and a Necron army, thought I did draw a game with a Infanty Guard Army( you try killing 120 guardsmen!) and lost to damm fairy Eldar( try killing 2 Wraithlords and a Avatar! thou I should have gone for the draw on this one!)

But over all, we can still given anyone a good kicking....and Deathwing Scary anyone with half a brain! cept orks, I dont think they understand the worked "Scary"

MasterGideon

bevulf
20-01-2009, 19:29
But over all, we can still given anyone a good kicking....and Deathwing Scary anyone with half a brain! cept orks, I dont think they understand the worked "Scary"

MasterGideon

Yeah...I played once against chaos and I clearly remember my friend's face when my deathwing squad teleported on the battlefield and hacked through his own terminators killing 4 of 5. He couldn't believe it. I finished game with one terminator but his losses to my deathwing squad were tremendous. Truly worth their name :)

Khaine775
23-01-2009, 12:48
Ok so they can field quite a lot of terms. Are their terms different than "normal" terms? Apart from the fact that they can be fielded as troops obviously

cortejri
23-01-2009, 13:31
Its the ability to take them as troops that is amazing... if you are facing an army like that, you have no "soft" target to shoot at, all AV14 and 2+ armor saves.. if you are not expecting it you are going to have a rough time dealing with it. add in the DW assault 1st turn nastiness, and then the black/white lists that can run circles around most armies, and *then* drop a termi CC squad on top of a critical army w/ biked teleport homers..

a properly run deathwing heavy DA army is a nightmare to play against.

and tons of fun to play as.. which is why im working on one :)

Khaine775
23-01-2009, 16:10
That sounds like some nasty boys, but what can they do against, say, a Khorne daemon army?

HsojVvad
23-01-2009, 16:13
Ok so they can field quite a lot of terms. Are their terms different than "normal" terms? Apart from the fact that they can be fielded as troops obviously

I believe no, only troops sets them apart. I believe in the new SM codex their termies are better, and by better I mean, with their cyclone missle can fire twice instead of once, their Storm Shield is a 3++ instead of the old 4++ that DA have to use.

Please don't ask to use the new C:SM rules for DA termies while you use DW. Using 2 codicies is not allowed, unless your opponet lets you, but they he can do the same then.

JagdWehrwolf
23-01-2009, 16:33
Why shouldn`t a DA player ask his opponent to use new stuff from C:SM? I thought that`s what GW told them to do, instead of "streamlining" everything according to the spirit of the 5th ed. As march10k said before they had enough oportunities to do it.

cortejri
23-01-2009, 17:06
Why shouldn`t a DA player ask his opponent to use new stuff from C:SM? I thought that`s what GW told them to do, instead of "streamlining" everything according to the spirit of the 5th ed. As march10k said before they had enough oportunities to do it.

i have blood angels, and a small dark angels army im growing, i have played BA as the codex download and as the 5th edition codex, DA as both as well, i really dont think that the few changes that *truly* affect either army are all that big, both of those codexes (ba and da) are well internally balanced. I think the griping is semi justified, but more and more, as i try my armies each way, i think its a "grass on the other side" phenomenon..

Starchild
23-01-2009, 17:15
You are 100% right - I play dark angels mainly because I like their fluff. Most secretive of all marines, dark appearance - this is what makes them extremely unique. Playing rules are second in my opinion to that. I haven't won many battles with my army but the pleasure of painting them is really satisfactory and makes up for all the losses :)

Most players disagree with me, but I think Jervis got it right when he wrote Codex Dark Angels. The way the army plays, and how finely balanced the army list is, makes the game more fun than Mat Ward's SM list IMO.

I like to feel that I'm taking humanity's best against the most dangerous traitors and aliens in the galaxy. I've played 40k for a very long time, so an actual challenge is welcome. If I used Codex SM instead of Codex DA, there would be no excuse for me to lose a game. :angel:

Like Jervis said, Dark Angels are for Space Marine players who want their armies to be dark, gothic, and sinister. I've been working on a Cities of Death table to go with my DAs. Why settle for a bunch of Master-Chief equivalents, when there's another 40k army that shows the true character of the grim future? :skull:



But over all, we can still given anyone a good kicking....and Deathwing Scary anyone with half a brain! cept orks, I dont think they understand the worked "Scary"

It's a lot easier to beat Orks in Cities of Death. The last game of CoD I had vs. Orks, I took razorwire and tank traps as my stratagems. This forced my opponents to move into the ruins, which slowed down their advance; I was able to shoot nearly every Boy off the board before they reached my firing lines! :evilgrin:

JagdWehrwolf
23-01-2009, 18:52
Crap! Unwillingly but... My post wasn`t about boosts and nerfs. I`m not a BA or DA player. Heck! At the moment I not a player at all (I`m waiting for IG and then hopefully Elysians :> ). I do understand that You can collect, paint, play and win, and generally have fun with them, but I don`t like the confusion of rules. I mean, it`s plainly obvious that some of the rules are outdated. For example: smoke launchers. Other: the general idea of any healing unit (be it Apothecary or Painboy) shifted towards giving the unit they are with FNP rather than... Anyways, You know what I mean.

HsojVvad
23-01-2009, 19:19
Why shouldn`t a DA player ask his opponent to use new stuff from C:SM? I thought that`s what GW told them to do, instead of "streamlining" everything according to the spirit of the 5th ed. As march10k said before they had enough oportunities to do it.

When you play with a group or people you know, that is one thing, they will expect you to use 2 codicies. But if you going to a GW store or somewhere where you play strangers, most people will not expect you to use 2 codicies, just one.

Yes shure you can ask the stranger you are playing, but is it fare for him to do that?

What GW said, was a slap in the face to everyone. They couldn't come up with a real answer, they could have said Yes or NO, but coped out. Basically they said, No use your own codex, but if you are going to leave GW then go ahead, use the SM one as well, but only if your oponent says no.

So if he says no, then what? You are still stuck with using one codex.

mughi3
24-01-2009, 07:03
Why shouldn`t a DA player ask his opponent to use new stuff from C:SM? I thought that`s what GW told them to do, instead of "streamlining" everything according to the spirit of the 5th ed. As march10k said before they had enough oportunities to do it.


The silly, poorly written, DA FAQ basically says you should be using all the new rules and points costs, but they are not going to make it legal and you have to get opponent permission to do so.


some groups like our 40K league just hopse rules it-

Always use the newest rules and points costs for standard equipment.



Like Jervis said, Dark Angels are for Space Marine players who want their armies to be dark, gothic, and sinister.

Thats all well and good for fluff an appearance. game mechanics wise you shouldn't be punished for doing so by taking gut check in the ovecosted points department or (now) substandard rules for stock same items available to all space marine chapters.

Occulto
25-01-2009, 02:00
What GW said, was a slap in the face to everyone. They couldn't come up with a real answer, they could have said Yes or NO, but coped out. Basically they said, No use your own codex, but if you are going to leave GW then go ahead, use the SM one as well, but only if your oponent says no.

So if he says no, then what? You are still stuck with using one codex.

I think a "slap in the face" is a bit of an overreaction.

The reasons are pretty simple IMHO - selling a codex that also requires a few pages of printouts to rewrite half of it, is not a professional look. Sure they could release a revised edition - in which case they're left with god knows how many useless books that are destined to be pulped. Then they've got to tell a bunch of players that they need to fork out $$$ for a new version - that's a slap in the face!

Even telling players they need to get a copy of SM to play their army sounds a bit like them saying: "Sorry mate, everyone else gets to play with one book, but because you're special you get to pay double." Plus how many people would that actually work on? DA + SM codex to play or just the SM codex on it's own? That'd just result in more bloody UM players. :p

It's not just a matter of copying and pasting - off the top of my head there's a few options that would need to be recosted.

Belial with a 3++ save against everything deserves a higher point cost than 130 points.

The DW Apothecary would need to drop in price. If his narthecium confers FNP, it don't do s*** against AP2 or better weapons which are the main killer of termies.

The DW unit of TH + SS with the better invulnerable save and counting as Troops? Hmm... that might be a bit OTT for 215 points.

Cyclone Missile Launchers would obviously have to go up in price.

If DA librarians were brought into line with their SM counterparts, then that'd need to be recosted. 24" range psychic hood? Start fiddling with their stats and I'd be demanding a fairly substantial drop in price.

Would units like scouts, techmarines/servitors, and venerable dreads change? If they were brought into line, would scouts move to Troops?

The more I've thought about it (reading SM and DA side by side), the more I think the only fair solution would be to totally rewrite and recost the DA codex. Might be nice, but does anyone honestly believe they're going to do that in the near future with all the other projects on the boil?

What they did say in the FAQ should be self evident. Anything in this game is up for negotiation provided both players agree.

Grand Master Raziel
25-01-2009, 06:40
It's funny how this was not a problem back when Codex: Space Marines 4th edition came out, because the DAs and BAs were still using the mini-dexes. When Codex: Space Marines got updated, they automatically got updated, too.

Anyhow, I don't think that a FAQ instructing DA players to use Codex: Space Marines to get access to the updated units would necessarily result in more UM players. Codex: Dark Angels would still be a viable source of background material and modeling info. A better solution might simply be to release an update to the army list section online. GW's rationale not doing things like that has tended to be that there might be players who don't have access to the internet, but that's just silly. Perhaps back in the 80's and 90's, that might have been so, but these days having a personal computer and internet access is less of a luxury than playing tabletop wargames. Online supplements and updates are perfectly valid, and will reach everyone they need to reach.

HsojVvad
25-01-2009, 15:39
@ Occulto, What the slap in the face is, GW Can't or Won't release a Yes or No answer. The answer they give is very vauge.

The answer they give, is yes you can, only unless your opponent agrees. If he dosn't agree you have to use what is in your codex. What kind of answer is that? People do that anyways. At least they could have come up with a yes or no answer.

Lungboy
25-01-2009, 16:47
I like to feel that I'm taking humanity's best against the most dangerous traitors ... in the galaxy.

But surely then you'd be playing GKs against DAs?? ;)

Rioghan Murchadha
25-01-2009, 18:30
I think a "slap in the face" is a bit of an overreaction.

The reasons are pretty simple IMHO - selling a codex that also requires a few pages of printouts to rewrite half of it, is not a professional look. Sure they could release a revised edition - in which case they're left with god knows how many useless books that are destined to be pulped. Then they've got to tell a bunch of players that they need to fork out $$$ for a new version - that's a slap in the face!


You mean like 3rd edition Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, and Guard? All of which had 2 editions of their 3rd edition books. The precedent has been set. When they eff up a book badly enough, they give it a second version. Or at least they used to.

susu.exp
25-01-2009, 18:53
@ Occulto, What the slap in the face is, GW Can't or Won't release a Yes or No answer. The answer they give is very vauge.

No it isnīt. The answer is basically "no". Knowing this would **** people off, they added that you can alter that with your opponents agreement. You can alter everything with your opponents agreement! Can my Rhino have the Skimmer Rule? Or more realistically: Can my CSM use the daemon Rules from the Deamon Dex? Would you like to help me playtest the current version of the fan made Varyngr Codex? Care to use VPs rather than the KP system? Can we have a special rule for the oil barrel terrain piece being blown up? Ary ou OK with me using a Stompa in a 1.75k game? Itīs not as if that was illegal. If you think the GW answer is vague, you must also think that rape laws are vague. After all they state that you can do whatever you want, as long as your partner agrees to it. I donīt think thatīs in any way vague.

HsojVvad
25-01-2009, 19:23
No it isnīt. The answer is basically "no". Knowing this would **** people off, they added that you can alter that with your opponents agreement. You can alter everything with your opponents agreement! Can my Rhino have the Skimmer Rule? Or more realistically: Can my CSM use the daemon Rules from the Deamon Dex? Would you like to help me playtest the current version of the fan made Varyngr Codex? Care to use VPs rather than the KP system? Can we have a special rule for the oil barrel terrain piece being blown up? Ary ou OK with me using a Stompa in a 1.75k game? Itīs not as if that was illegal. If you think the GW answer is vague, you must also think that rape laws are vague. After all they state that you can do whatever you want, as long as your partner agrees to it. I donīt think thatīs in any way vague.

Exactly. That is the slap in the face as well. So lets see, I spent a $100 bucks for a rule book for what then? Not to go by it? I mean why even bother buying a codex then? Why not all us just make rules as we go then?

I thought the reason for a rule book was to go by the rules, espically if when we play strangers. Yes there are times when you go by house rules, but playing strangers for the first time, espically at pick up games is not a place for house rules.

Ah I just reread the origianl post. Sorry for going off topic. I see the OP dosn't even want to play DA he is playing against DA. We are way off topic now. Sorry about that.

Anything more you need to go up agaisnt DA?

susu.exp
25-01-2009, 19:47
Exactly. That is the slap in the face as well. So lets see, I spent a $100 bucks for a rule book for what then? Not to go by it? I mean why even bother buying a codex then? Why not all us just make rules as we go then?

See, the rule book is there to spare us the work of creating the game all by ourselves (something people have done and are still doing these days. Heck, check the specialist games where fan rules almost dominate. There are Epic ranges for which there are no GW rules, but fan made lists and models - Tau for instance, even if the models are FW). You buy the book and the Dexes to have a starting point. In the same way you could ask why buy a model, if you are going to convert it? Why not sculpt it yourself? Well, because I can do weapon swap easily, and even do some pretty involved conversions, but sculpting a model from a wire frame that wonīt look out of place next to GW sculpts is beyond me. In the same way I can come up with some scenario rules, an alternative list and house rules easily. But writing a complete game system is a bit much and Iīll gladly buy the BRB and modify it to suit my own (and my opponents) taste.


I thought the reason for a rule book was to go by the rules, espically if when we play strangers. Yes there are times when you go by house rules, but playing strangers for the first time, espically at pick up games is not a place for house rules.

Yup. And for these cases, GW has answered "no". Though using some of the changes may be common enough across different groups, that it wonīt hurt to ask. Just bring alternative lists to pick up games...

Occulto
26-01-2009, 00:26
You mean like 3rd edition Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines, and Guard? All of which had 2 editions of their 3rd edition books. The precedent has been set. When they eff up a book badly enough, they give it a second version. Or at least they used to.

Whether that precedent is something they want to continue is anyone's guess. I suspect that after copping flak for ignoring various armies for so long, that their priority is to (rightly IMHO) get armies like IG, SW, Necrons and DE out.

Like I said, I believe that a total rewrite would be required. This means someone would have to spend their time doing that, rather than working on something else. It's not just something that can happen overnight.


@ Occulto, What the slap in the face is, GW Can't or Won't release a Yes or No answer. The answer they give is very vauge.

The answer they give, is yes you can, only unless your opponent agrees. If he dosn't agree you have to use what is in your codex. What kind of answer is that? People do that anyways. At least they could have come up with a yes or no answer.

It's an answer - just not the answer you wanted to hear.

Sure, they're stating the bloody obvious but c'mon, that's like taking offense to the section in the BGB that says: "you can make up your own mission rules if you want." :rolleyes:

If they said yes, then every DA player out there would need to buy the SM codex, even if they didn't want to.

If they said no, then little would actually change from the current situation. Official events still wouldn't permit mixing, and players would have the option of using the SM wargear as a houserule if they chose.

Occulto
26-01-2009, 00:46
Exactly. That is the slap in the face as well. So lets see, I spent a $100 bucks for a rule book for what then? Not to go by it?

If modifying the rules means the game becomes more enjoyable for both players, then why the hell wouldn't you deviate?

Take the 5th ed LOS rules - if both players prefer to use the area terrain rules from 4th, then what's the problem?

GW have promoted the idea of house rules for years and stated repeatedly that the rules are a starting point for players to modify the game how they want. RPG players have been doing it for years.


I mean why even bother buying a codex then? Why not all us just make rules as we go then?

Because writing an entire codex is a lengthy process, and most of us would prefer to sling a few bucks at the company to save us the trouble.

I can homebrew my own beer too, but I'd still rather pay someone else to do it. :D


I thought the reason for a rule book was to go by the rules, espically if when we play strangers. Yes there are times when you go by house rules, but playing strangers for the first time, espically at pick up games is not a place for house rules.

Why not? Why is it assumed that in a pick up game, all reasonable behavior goes out the window? I've played plenty of games (at tournaments no less) where halfway through my opponent and I agreed to make up something to cover a situation. Usually goes along the lines of:

"So what do the rules say?"
"They're unclear - it could go one way or the other."
"How do you want to play it?"
"Um. d6 for it?"
"Sounds good."

While some players will be sticklers for 100% adherence to the rules, others are open to trying something different especially if they see it's reasonable.

mughi3
26-01-2009, 13:42
Occulto
The problem is that JJ and crew are so concerned about the "hobby" aspect of the game about fluff and modeling that they are ignoring the fact that it is also a competitive wargame.

In miniature wargames you need solid, well written rules that are also balanced. lots of other companies can do this and keep reasonable updates flowing, GW chooses not to even try(by JJs own admission even).

The problem in this instance is that if you are forced to use C: DA your playing with a handicap with all but about 4 pieces of standard gear and spending alot more points to do it. it's not that hard to fix and it certainly does not require a re-write. in fact the entire controversy could have been solved by two sentences telling you to use the newest C: SM rules/points for general gear from the entries in question. just like the old 3.5 dex.

HsojVvad
26-01-2009, 16:47
Occulto
The problem is that JJ and crew are so concerned about the "hobby" aspect of the game about fluff and modeling that they are ignoring the fact that it is also a competitive wargame.

In miniature wargames you need solid, well written rules that are also balanced. lots of other companies can do this and keep reasonable updates flowing, GW chooses not to even try(by JJs own admission even).

The problem in this instance is that if you are forced to use C: DA your playing with a handicap with all but about 4 pieces of standard gear and spending alot more points to do it. it's not that hard to fix and it certainly does not require a re-write. in fact the entire controversy could have been solved by two sentences telling you to use the newest C: SM rules/points for general gear from the entries in question. just like the old 3.5 dex.

You don't even have to say use the newest C:SM rules and points for general gear. That can be updated in a FAQ.

But if they don't want DA to have equallality of the new C:SM just say so. Then we will have our final answer. But because of their answer, they are saying yes and no at the same time.

You can tell your opponent that no, he can't use the war gear in the new C:SM, but the the other person can say, But GW said I could.

Occulto
26-01-2009, 23:19
Occulto
The problem is that JJ and crew are so concerned about the "hobby" aspect of the game about fluff and modeling that they are ignoring the fact that it is also a competitive wargame.

Well it depends whether you see that as a problem or not. I don't.

I'm over everything in this game being evaluated on the basis of how it performs in bloody "competitive" gaming. Particularly when the difference between good and crap is a handful of points at best. :rolleyes:

How often have you seen complaints that GW has lost it's way and is now a faceless corporation rather than a company run by hobbyists for hobbyists? Seems like they're taking steps to move back to a hobby focus and... well... complaints.


In miniature wargames you need solid, well written rules that are also balanced. lots of other companies can do this and keep reasonable updates flowing, GW chooses not to even try(by JJs own admission even).

Probably because over the last decade, they've been trying to do that and copped nothing but criticism in the process:

If they tighten the codices to make them more balanced - what happens? Whinges about blandness.

If they throw in heaps of options - what happens? Whinges about unbalanced rules.


The problem in this instance is that if you are forced to use C: DA your playing with a handicap with all but about 4 pieces of standard gear and spending alot more points to do it. it's not that hard to fix and it certainly does not require a re-write. in fact the entire controversy could have been solved by two sentences telling you to use the newest C: SM rules/points for general gear from the entries in question. just like the old 3.5 dex.

They did. Hence that bit about opponent's permission.

But I forgot, that actually means "not in this lifetime" because everyone's so paranoid about conceding even the slightest advantage in pickup games. Not only that, it opens the door to all kinds of abuse.

I mean, if my opponent agrees that I can use the SM wargear, then I have to let him use his homegrown rules where he gets to field a couple of c'tan in his nid army for free.

Isn't that how opponent's permission works?

TheLionReturns
27-01-2009, 00:31
The problem is that JJ and crew are so concerned about the "hobby" aspect of the game about fluff and modeling that they are ignoring the fact that it is also a competitive wargame.

In miniature wargames you need solid, well written rules that are also balanced. lots of other companies can do this and keep reasonable updates flowing, GW chooses not to even try(by JJs own admission even).


Why does a miniatures wargame need to be balanced? Is there a reason other than top level tournament play? The reason I ask is that as players we can balance games ourselves, for example by taking points handicaps against weaker players or fielding weaker lists.

To defend imbalance it does have its uses. It allows for the existence of starter armies and more advanced armies, so helps allow newer gamers stay competitive against those more experienced. Of course this requires more experienced players to try their hand at weaker armies as they progress for the challenge, but the system is workable in principle as long as players buy into it. My only real requirement is that all armies at least retain a reasonable chance of winning and i believe that is the case currently.

It is perhaps a bit unfortunate for competitive tournament players that GW doesn't do all it can to achieve balance, but in fairness GW was far more of a fluff and hobby driven company in its early days before it even held tournaments. Its current attitude seems like returning to GW tradition to me. In fact GW may perceive that the focus on modelling and fluff is what makes it stand out in the market, and is its key selling point. As you say other companies do balanced rulesets better.

mughi3
27-01-2009, 11:31
Probably because over the last decade, they've been trying to do that and copped nothing but criticism in the process:

If they tighten the codices to make them more balanced - what happens? Whinges about blandness.

If they throw in heaps of options - what happens? Whinges about unbalanced rules.
The problem there is the "even hand".
when C: DA came out we were really miffed about loosing our chapter specific fluff, but we were assured that all the other armies would get the same treatment, so things would be fair. that lasted for all of 3 codex's and they they changed thier minds and shafted us, then told us to stay bland.

It also doesn't help that unlike other companies, they strentch released out over so many years that it breaks the game.

By way of comparison classic battletech has been around longer than 40K and has only gone through 3 editions. those minor tweeks made the game better overall but the basic rules have been consistant no matter which force, what time period or what weapons loads you favor. I dare say ithas just as much "hobby" aspect as 40K given the rich universe. take a peak at cammospecs online and see what i mean.

I could go on about infinity, BFG and othes but the point remains the same.

Sure we like the fluff, sure some people are better models/painters than others, but when it comes down to it this is a game. a game JJs department is employed to write rules for. if the team thats tasked with writting the rules doesn't realy give a rip and is more concerned with "pretty models" then thay are not doing what they are paid to do. If i want to bow to skulpters and lovely models i can cross the hall and visit the FW department.



But I forgot, that actually means "not in this lifetime" because everyone's so paranoid about conceding even the slightest advantage in pickup games. Not only that, it opens the door to all kinds of abuse.

I mean, if my opponent agrees that I can use the SM wargear, then I have to let him use his homegrown rules where he gets to field a couple of c'tan in his nid army for free.

There is no such abuse. the newest rules are for standard equipment, it is diffcult at best to play a game where the stock same items may have 3 different rules depending on what codex you use. this is messy but it is legal because all are GW official rules. designed for the game.

Homemade rules are however not legal or binding. so the "permission" take is utter tripe.