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Cornishman
19-01-2009, 15:38
So we all know the Imperium is a bit rigid when it comes to religion and technology and this does stifle somewhat the ability to (re)discover something and actually put it to use... So assuming your army is loyal to the emperor what advances (In background and/or game mechanic) would your local adeptus-mechanicus subjects come up with, that would naturally see you (and your entire army) on the wrong side of techno-heresy charges:

Admitidly Space Marine centric but off the top of my head:
- To give Rhinos some better front armour: AV 11 for the premier APC does seem silly
- To twin-link the auto-cannon in the predator. After all if, a Dreadnought can handle twin linked cannons why can't the predator?
- To up to ROF of the Dreadnough Missile launcher to Heavy 2. If the cyclone and typhoon launchers are more effective than a hand held version why not the Dreadnoughts?

Atomic Rooster
19-01-2009, 18:09
I'd want to add power armoured troops with bolters & jump packs. Doesn't matter to me if its Tacticals with Jump packs or Assault squads with bolters.

I'd add meltaguns to my assault squads. Blood Angels have this option, why not codex marines?

I'd add a rhino variant with a rapid fire mortar. I've come close to making a "counts as whirlwind" mortar conversion.

I'd allow a relic blade to be combined with terminator armour.

I'd also add more ammunition to what the marines currently carry.

As for your comments:
Rhinos arn't Land raiders. I'd leave them as is. The heavier armour would lower offroad ability and would effect fuel economy... which is bad for logistics. In reality, marines should disembark when then fighting starts and the rhinos would wait behind the line.

Ya, a completely agree that the Predator auto cannon is underpowered. I'd never put an auto cannon on there if it wasn't suspiciously cheap. Even a humble missle launcher would be better! I'd ask the tech marine to try to mount the razorback's Las plas on a pred, or better yet, just a jumbo lascannon.

Bunnahabhain
19-01-2009, 19:06
Artillery spotters.
The vulnerable artillery is put where it should be- behind the lines. Guard Officers use the vox system to call in artillery fire, so the gunners can concentrate on putting as much HE as possible downrange, without having to worry about small arms fire.


Sentinals.
These flexible vehicles can mount a wide variety of heavy weapons. Assualt cannons, Multi-meltas, all the existing GW and FW options, anything else that seems right.

Common sense.
Gunners with special and heavy weapons are often issued standing orders to engage certain important targets, regardless of what the rest of the squad is shooting at, for instance the squad may beating Orks back with lasguns, whilst the lascannon takes out the dreadnaught.
Similarly, Sponson gunners and the like are under orders to engage nearby targets of opportunity, if the main weapon is hitting a target out of their range or fire arc.

I also wouldn't mind doing an Anti-Tau Crusade, where Imperial forces kidnap a couple of the filthy blue skin xenos, and get them to rebuild/repair weapons, to get non overheating plasma weapons, and stick effective sights on the more important weapons....

Definitely tech-hearsy, that last one, but very imperial...

Firaxin
19-01-2009, 20:03
VDR... Motorcycles with twin-linked lasguns and heavy stubber outriders, halftracks (open-topped razorbacks for guard), armored cars (similar to the salamander but with a closed top, command squads only), transport trucks (cheap [20pts], AV10 all around transport with a mere heavy stubber, or even nothing), naval vessels, and for some of my higher tech armies, things like anti-grav chimeras, etc.

Infantry Design Rules would be cool but too complicated.

Godgolden
19-01-2009, 20:13
Give all guard Lasgun hotshot rounds as standard, double ammo capacity with combat webbing

afix heavy duty plating to the sides of my tanks increasing the armour value.

Enhance the machine spirit of missiles to miss less.

Make Titan grade weapons you know that are dedicated anti-titan.. be effective at anti-titan roles *ahem plasma blaster*

I agree with the special orders for sponson gunners and infantry special weapons.

Upgrade armour to be able to take a beating just like a monstrous creature ^-^

Teach the tech-priest inside super heavies to repair on the run

Consider learning and replicating the graviton tech and equiping it as a pintle-mounted weapon to give those skimmers a rough ride

Have a good hard 'LONG' look at what really goes in a frag grenade... remove the fluffy sponge inside and replace with explosives please, then teach guardsmen how to throw them.

Make ordnance at least alittle uncomfortable for those inside the blast radius....

take19
19-01-2009, 20:17
A lightning claw which combines the abilities of a chain-fist.

ZOMGBBQ
19-01-2009, 20:21
A power Fist that strikes at initiative and inflicts instant death regardless of toughness!

Reflex
19-01-2009, 22:50
suicide bombers?

carldooley
19-01-2009, 23:10
actually, cant you take suicide bombers now? Schaeffer, Kage and 4 specialists with demolition charges.

as for tech heresy - letting your guardsmen scavenge weapons and gear from their enemies - think ratlings with long rifles, hardened veterans in tau stealth armor, stormtroopers sporting vespid blasters. Binding a captured defiler to use against its masters. some techpriests going "these gundrones are actually kind of neat!"

Firaxin
20-01-2009, 04:14
actually, cant you take suicide bombers now? Schaeffer, Kage and 4 specialists with demolition charges.
They're not 'real' suicide bombers. I mean, I could take the halftrack i was talking about as a salamander with an armored crew compartment. But it's not the same.


ratlings with long rifles
What do they have now?

Warforger
20-01-2009, 05:50
I'd add meltaguns to my assault squads. Blood Angels have this option, why not codex marines?

They don't, BA veteran squads do, and you have your Vanguard, so no




I'd allow a relic blade to be combined with terminator armour.

They can


I'd also add more ammunition to what the marines currently carry.

You realize that plasma weapons are sacred and relics right, so I could only imagine how the ammunition must be.....


As for your comments:
Rhinos arn't Land raiders. I'd leave them as is. The heavier armour would lower offroad ability and would effect fuel economy... which is bad for logistics. In reality, marines should disembark when then fighting starts and the rhinos would wait behind the line.

Agree, Marines are supposed to have the weaker more mobile tanks, not the super dooper 72" AP3 Pie Plates on AV14

I want a faster rhino, oh wait I play Blood Angels, so screw that, I want a Faster LR with a bigger weapon range, Faster Vindicator, jetbikes (oh I can only wish) Dreadclaw's

Mostly upgrades on things I don't like.

KRG-23
20-01-2009, 09:17
- To split heavy weapons servants from the rest of the Guard squad (like in v2)
- To allow sponson servants to shoot in their LOS (like previously said)
- Ain't heavy weapons embarked in a vehicle have cogitators or visors or any device that help aiming and that a trooper can't have on his heavy weapon ?
- IG is somewhat a dug-in/static army, why can't guards call thru their voxcast their hierarchy any time they need it ? (like in v2)

Yeah, I miss v2 on some points ...

Koryphaus
20-01-2009, 09:21
I'd allow a relic blade to be combined with terminator armour.




They can


Nope, they can't. Buggered if I know why though..

MrBigMr
20-01-2009, 09:33
For a thread with an interesting concept, it's just another "I wanna" thread.


- To give Rhinos some better front armour: AV 11 for the premier APC does seem silly
AV11 is pretty neat. I mean, it can withstand small arms fire, medium machineguns, 19mm rockets, mortars and other light explosives. That's not bad for a vehicle not dedicated to combat. Unlike the Guard's Chimera, which is basically an IFV, much like the Bradley or BMP.

All we used in the army was this fiberglass box on tracks, which probably wouldn't even stop a fist.


- To up to ROF of the Dreadnough Missile launcher to Heavy 2. If the cyclone and typhoon launchers are more effective than a hand held version why not the Dreadnoughts?
CML has two pods. Typhoon Launcher has two pods. Dreadnought has one pod. Funny that. If you want two shot missile, get the Mortis pattern one with two missile launchers.


I'd add meltaguns to my assault squads. Blood Angels have this option, why not codex marines?
Probably the same reason they don't get a jump pack command squads either. I mean, that would make the BA list obsolite in a sense. Can't have that. GW knows not to saw the brans from underneath them. With the expence of the customer, that is.


I'd add a rhino variant with a rapid fire mortar. I've come close to making a "counts as whirlwind" mortar conversion.
I can't really see the Marines bothering with something like a Mortar. It's not that rapid fire nor versitile to begin with.


Common sense.
Gunners with special and heavy weapons are often issued standing orders to engage certain important targets, regardless of what the rest of the squad is shooting at, for instance the squad may beating Orks back with lasguns, whilst the lascannon takes out the dreadnaught.
Similarly, Sponson gunners and the like are under orders to engage nearby targets of opportunity, if the main weapon is hitting a target out of their range or fire arc.
Maybe you should take heed of your own special rule here. It doesn't take a genious to figure out the horrific repercussions of such a thing. After all, it's a game and not a combat simulation. If one wants more realism, find the nearest recruitment office and you'll have a gay old time indeed. The sounds, the graphics, the experience, the special effects!


get non overheating plasma weapons
All the Imperium would have to do to make their plasmas more safe, is lower its power. But they've calculated that the off number of casualties from overheating (remember, in the fluff it's far less likely to happen than in the game itself) is a price to pay for the extra punch.


Enhance the machine spirit of missiles to miss less.
Not all 40K missile are homing missiles. A missile is a catch all term for pretty much any projectile. Arrows can be called missiles too. And ever heard of magic missiles?


Have a good hard 'LONG' look at what really goes in a frag grenade... remove the fluffy sponge inside and replace with explosives please, then teach guardsmen how to throw them.
Have you ever thrown a grenade? Unlike in movies, they don't fly that far even if you have a trained throwing arm, and frags usually had the problem that you're in danger from the fragments too, because they do fly around and not just the amount if says on the box. I've heard of fragments from a grenade wounding people a 120m away from the blast.

"These [fragmentation] grenades were sometimes classed as defensive grenades because the effective casualty radius of some matched or exceeded the distance they could be thrown, thus necessitating them being thrown from behind cover."

Besides, you don't throw grenades around like they were going out of style. Grenades are used against entrenched enemies, gun emplacements that can't be engaged with conventional means, clearing spaces and such. Not running around and lobbing around.

40K rules on using offensive and defensive grenades is rather right. Just because the initial use doesn't necessarily kill any models, it can be attributed to the end result, just like rapid fire weapons, by fluff, could be fired from the hip on the go and any possible hit could be attributed as part of the overall charge.

LawrencePhillips
20-01-2009, 10:05
Game balance and point cost issues aside, i can think of some pretty good arguments.



- To give Rhinos some better front armour: AV 11 for the premier APC does seem silly

Its a transport to carry space marines. Think how much a tooled up space marine weighs. Now times that by 12. Now add the weight of the structure of the vehicle, engine and armour. It's a lot, for a vehicle that needs to be reasonably fast. So it was designed with light armour (for a tank). It's done well for the past 10,000 years at least, why change it.



- To twin-link the auto-cannon in the predator. After all if, a Dreadnought can handle twin linked cannons why can't the predator?

Why dont we strap more guns to modern battle tanks...? Becasue they'res no room. Yeah, you can probably fix it in the structure, but what about the loader, where will he fit? Also what benefit does it add? It's already an automatic cannon, do you really gain anything by strapping two of them together? It's done well for the past 10,000 years at least, why change it.



- To up to ROF of the Dreadnough Missile launcher to Heavy 2. If the cyclone and typhoon launchers are more effective than a hand held version why not the Dreadnoughts?
This one is to do with point cost more than anything else. Again, the missile launcher on the dread has been fine for ages, why should GW change it?

MrBigMr
20-01-2009, 10:53
Not to forget that the Rhino is not an SM tank, it's a tank used by the SM. Sisters, Inquisition, Arbites, etc. use it too. I'm actually a little surprised that the Guard can't get their hands on one. Hopefully the Stormtroopers could in the new codex. They get Chimeras in Inquisitorial armies, so why not Rhinos in IG ones?

Inach
20-01-2009, 13:44
For CSM:
Kill some daemons... melt them into swords :rolleyes: Give those swords to chaos aspiring champions.... These are, however, less trustfull as the 'normal' daemon weapons.. so on failed D6, the daemon takes over and the champion is replaced with a Possesed Marine. :D

Atomic Rooster
20-01-2009, 14:06
I can't really see the Marines bothering with something like a Mortar. It's not that rapid fire nor versitile to begin with.


Take a look at some of the modern mortar systems some countries are putting into service. Ludicrous rates of fire, multiple simultaneous impact, accurate as you could imagine, even smart mortar rounds with HEAT warheads - top armour anyone?

Bunnahabhain
20-01-2009, 14:37
You don't even need to look at modern mortar systems. Just try a standard 81/82 mm company mortar, with a crew of 2 or 3 , as used by most modern armies, and in a design virtually unchanged since WW2.

With a competent crew, they can quite happily manage 20 rounds a minute per tube in short bursts, and 8-12 a minute indefinitely, depending on army and tubes. Alternatively, a standard section of 2 or 3 tubes can throw out 10-20 rounds, and then sling their weapons on the transport, and be away from there before the end of the salvo has landed.

The modern automatic ones can do it better, but you don't need them.

If mortars worked as effectively in 40k as they do in real life, the Ork or Nid horde would be very dead moments after coming into range.

Warforger
20-01-2009, 15:01
Why dont we strap more guns to modern battle tanks...? Becasue they'res no room. Yeah, you can probably fix it in the structure, but what about the loader, where will he fit? Also what benefit does it add? It's already an automatic cannon, do you really gain anything by strapping two of them together? It's done well for the past 10,000 years at least, why change it.




but they obviously have enough room for a second lascannon and assault cannon, but they can only take one autocannon? I mean these weapons at least share the same ammo feed, the only thing you need is more ammo.

A.S.modai
20-01-2009, 15:33
I'd get the tech priests to figure out why the side armor on the Chimera TANK is the same as and Ork Warbuggie. If they couldn't figure it out, I'd get the administratum munitorium to buy some ork warbuggies.

I'd also get them to figure out how to pintle mount a hvy bolter or assault cannon.

MrBigMr
20-01-2009, 15:50
Take a look at some of the modern mortar systems some countries are putting into service. Ludicrous rates of fire, multiple simultaneous impact, accurate as you could imagine, even smart mortar rounds with HEAT warheads - top armour anyone?

You don't even need to look at modern mortar systems. Just try a standard 81/82 mm company mortar, with a crew of 2 or 3 , as used by most modern armies, and in a design virtually unchanged since WW2.
That mortar type was the standard issue in our company, though not in my platoon, so never got to use it (but help clean it). But can you really see 2-3 Marines squatting around a mortar, set it up and calculate all the angles, when they all could take missile launchers and just start firing away? And if we should start taking modern things, why not also get tank design, weapons and tactics into 40K armies. How about some camo-colors and cover usage, Marines? How about some SABOT shots for Russes and make the more like modern tanks with lower profile and all that.

Lets face it, this is 40K. In the game, only the Tau have air bursting shots, even as they've been around since WW2. It's not about what should and shouldn't go where, it's about the theme. Marines have a theme of pipe biting superhumans with big guns and a bad attitude, not squatting around and plotting angles for a mortar shot in some hole.

Firaxin
20-01-2009, 16:39
IG have airbursting shots. Mole mortars are designed to burst up from the ground and explode at shoulder height.

Atomic Rooster
20-01-2009, 17:14
I'm not talking about a mortar infantry team. I'm only interested in a tracked vehicle. Picture something like a thunderfire canon mounted on a rhino with indirect fire (like the AMOS mortar system). Yes, I can see Marines punching in the co-ords of a mortar strike into a targeting computer, just like the whirlwind.

Mortars have ranges that are better translated to the 40k battlefield. I've never head of short range rocket artillery so it's hard for me to accept the whirlwind as something capable of doing so.

And, most importantly, the nice thing about mortars is that they go bang instead of whoosh.

Bunnahabhain
20-01-2009, 17:39
I'm not talking about a mortar infantry team. I'm only interested in a tracked vehicle. Picture something like a thunderfire canon mounted on a rhino with indirect fire (like the AMOS mortar system). Yes, I can see Marines punching in the co-ords of a mortar strike into a targeting computer, just like the whirlwind.

Mortars have ranges that are better translated to the 40k battlefield. I've never head of short range rocket artillery so it's hard for me to accept the whirlwind as something capable of doing so.

And, most importantly, the nice thing about mortars is that they go bang instead of whoosh.

Katyusha! KATYUSHA! Everybody down!
Or Nerblewerbers, or various other systems.

WW2 Rocket artillery. Katyushas had an effective max range of 5.5 km, and a minimum of about 1 km ( IIRC) which in 40k terms is probably something like 96"- 12/18"

Drops a whole load of HE ( ie about one ton per launcher) on an area very inaccurately, very fast.


I can't really see Marines using mortars, but I wouldn't mind the Guardsmen already lugging them about to try firing a couple of rounds, rather than just 1 between the 20 minute prayers, and actually aiming using a compass and their eyes, rather than spin the bottle as they seem to do now.

bigbauske
20-01-2009, 17:51
Enough on the mortors! (hehe!) I think marines are pretty much fine but could use some of the same things as guard...

- To split heavy weapons servants from the rest of the Guard squad
- To allow sponson servants to shoot in their LOS
- Give the heavy weapons embarked better to hit.... think of the fire control / targeting systems on modern tank
- More versatility to the sentinal

those are my four, i could go on but hey.... its still a fun game!

electricblooz
20-01-2009, 17:54
Maybe you should take heed of your own special rule here. It doesn't take a genious to figure out the horrific repercussions of such a thing [alternative targeting of heavy weapons/sponsons]. After all, it's a game and not a combat simulation. If one wants more realism, find the nearest recruitment office and you'll have a gay old time indeed. The sounds, the graphics, the experience, the special effects!

Oh that was really helpful and mature. We had an entire edition where heavy weapons could be targetted independently of the squad and nobody screamed the sky was falling because of it then.




"These [fragmentation] grenades were sometimes classed as defensive grenades because the effective casualty radius of some matched or exceeded the distance they could be thrown, thus necessitating them being thrown from behind cover."

Besides, you don't throw grenades around like they were going out of style. Grenades are used against entrenched enemies, gun emplacements that can't be engaged with conventional means, clearing spaces and from trenches, emplacements, etc. when they are being charged. Fixed it for you...


My biggest problem with frags is that everyone thinks they are somehow useful for my IG. Let's see, next time I manage to storm a position of Fire Warriors i sure will be thankful for those frags.

MrBigMr
20-01-2009, 18:56
IG have airbursting shots. Mole mortars are designed to burst up from the ground and explode at shoulder height.
And in Storm of Iron they are said to use ai bursting ones, but they're not in the game. Just like how CSM don't have drop pods, non-crazed dreads, sniper bolters, obliterators with solid slug weapons, etc. etc. The game is actually a very, very limited cross section of the universe and the things that are in it.


I'm not talking about a mortar infantry team. I'm only interested in a tracked vehicle. Picture something like a thunderfire canon mounted on a rhino with indirect fire (like the AMOS mortar system). Yes, I can see Marines punching in the co-ords of a mortar strike into a targeting computer, just like the whirlwind.
But the Thundefire Cannon is just that, a cannon, not a mortar. Or at least I didn't spot anything anything in my codex when I flipped through it. Might be wrong.

When someone talks about a mortar on a tank, I get an image of a literal mortar at the back of a vehicles. And what's to stop someone from making a Vindicator with a mortar or gun?

http://www.coolminiornot.com/index/whatc/SF/whatm/GW/id/43586
http://www.coolminiornot.com/index/whatc/SF/whatm/GW/id/155118


Oh that was really helpful and mature. We had an entire edition where heavy weapons could be targetted independently of the squad and nobody screamed the sky was falling because of it then.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean it like that. But we've also used to have many other things that have been removed. I can think of a few things that'll go wrong with that sort of thing. I don't remember anyone having the sky fall when assault cannon terminators could empty the board, IW got 4 pieplates with 9 obliterators or double lash princes whipping everything in shape. But that does not mean it wouldn't be a problem.

RexTalon
20-01-2009, 19:41
I'd up the ROF on all inf. weapons. Shooting isn't NEARLY as deadly as it should be.

RexTalon
20-01-2009, 19:42
When someone talks about a mortar on a tank, I get an image of a literal mortar at the back of a vehicles. And what's to stop someone from making a Vindicator with a mortar or gun?

http://www.coolminiornot.com/index/whatc/SF/whatm/GW/id/43586
http://www.coolminiornot.com/index/whatc/SF/whatm/GW/id/155118

Oh my god, that vehicle would flip over backwards so fast.

chromedog
20-01-2009, 19:59
We used to have non-exploding plasma weapons. They did it with two fire modes.

Lower power shot (lower S, multiple shots) or full power (but fired every other turn).

Since then, the IoM has thrown the OH&S guidelines out the window, and now can't give a rat's sphincter about the safety of its troops.

This is just an "I wanna" thread. Most of what people are wanting was around in previous versions of the rules.

I want a Land Raider with armour 26, and multiple pie plate throwers at S10 AP2, and I want to be able to fit 10 terminators inside it as well. Pity it will then be the size of a baneblade and cost as much (both in points and monetarily)

carldooley
20-01-2009, 20:00
a gift for yon mortarheads:

http://oz.games-workshop.com/download/download.htm?/games/40k/imperialguard/articles/armouredcompany/assets/ac-vehicles.pdf

look up the griffon

**edit**
while i'm at it, I want VDR in the next orc codex for looted vehicles

Buddha777
20-01-2009, 20:10
If mortars worked as effectively in 40k as they do in real life, the Ork or Nid horde would be very dead moments after coming into range.

True. But even the 100 gaunts brought to a 40k table arn't even close to the tens of thousands that even a small assault would unleash on defenders so it evens out.

But like anything in TT, things have to be toned down to make the game playable whether its numbers or killing power.

Koryphaus
20-01-2009, 20:10
Its a transport to carry space marines. Think how much a tooled up space marine weighs. Now times that by 12. Now add the weight of the structure of the vehicle, engine and armour. It's a lot, for a vehicle that needs to be reasonably fast. So it was designed with light armour (for a tank). It's done well for the past 10,000 years at least, why change it.

It has performed very well, but it's only had to carry 12 Marines since October..

rodmillard
21-01-2009, 00:04
The biggest heretical mod I would make is to strip the weapons off a LandSpeeder and give it some transport capacity ... oh wait, they've already done that

Firaxin
21-01-2009, 00:58
But the Thundefire Cannon is just that, a cannon, not a mortar. Or at least I didn't spot anything anything in my codex when I flipped through it. Might be wrong.
*shrug* The howitzer is a cannon too.
Hmm... Although the Tcannon doesn't have the Guess rule.

More stuff I want:
Combi-lasguns/hellguns. Variants: flamers, shotguns (whole squads would be able to take this), grenade launchers, meltas.

Lasgun/shotgun equipped grunts supported by flamers would be very helpful in my CC army. I'd nickname their guns Morita Rifles (http://http://www.starshiptroopers.net/MoritaTEXT.html). ;)
Or any guard army for that matter, what with the ability to shoot at long range with their lasguns from cover and then use the combi-shotgun to countercharge enemies that get too close.

MrBigMr
21-01-2009, 01:09
I wanna Chaos back to the good ol' animosity towards each other and more non-humans into it. For a force that has been around well before humanity even learned to walk erect, its current demography is rather one sided. Give us beastmen and mutants, humans and aliens, Marines and cultists. And gifts back (even if just as wargear). And more daemonic war machines, if nothing else.

Hell, take the WHFB Hellcannon, give it a cultist crew and rules similar to the Thunderfire Cannon. Shouldn't cost too much to find a new package for the damn thing.

Cornishman
21-01-2009, 09:18
It's done well for the past 10,000 years at least, why change it.


My Brothers! It appears our superiors have discovered our tinkering and alas have sent an excellent example of the rigid, oppressive doctrine that has crushed innovation and discovery of the Machine-God's works for millennia to investigate and judge us! And they wonder why in 7,000 years a race has gone from brutal savages to utilising powered exo-skeletons, advanced A.I. and a bewildering array of anti-grav tanks….

:p

I think my next army will be Tau… They like funky new ideas…