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Malorian
19-01-2009, 16:43
Ok so as some of you know I've been playing around with orcs with pretty good success, but now they have to be ready for their first major tournament.

My biggest worry is armies like vampires or stubborn armies where I need to kill models and can't win by static CR alone.

This is my current list:

Savage orc warboss w/ great axe, iron gnashas
Black orc bigboss BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
Goblin big boss w/ wolf, one hit wunda, light armor, shield
Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
6 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician
27 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets, banner

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll


And this is the list I'm considering:

Savage orc warboss w/ great axe, iron gnashas, battle brew
Black orc bigboss BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
Goblin big boss w/ wolf, one hit wunda, light armor, shield
Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 savage orcs w/ spears and full command
25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll


The addition of the savage orcs adds a LOT of killing power, and hatred on the warboss 2/3 of the time helps too.

The cons of the second list is that I lose the spiders (and thus my ability to flush out nearby forests of scouts) and the night goblin unit which had acted before as a nice bunker for my BSB while helping out everywhere with the fanatics. (Plus I'd have to paint 25 savage orcs in 2 weeks...)


So what do you think? List 1 or list 2?

Magx
19-01-2009, 17:26
quick question : why no champions ?

and personnaly, I prefer your first list, except that I probably would 1 unit of Riders (probably the Wolves... I like too much the spiders because of the ability of running through forests without penalty)

Malorian
19-01-2009, 17:33
Unit champions are too expensive to be worth it. I only take one in the savage orcs because the extra attack makes it a better deal, plus he can protect my general.

drpieceofme
19-01-2009, 18:11
If you are worried about VC's then you need to have something to counter wraiths and/or have a suicide squad to kill his lord. Magic weapons or magic itself. You have neither. The easiest way to do this is to give your gobbo Big Boss tricksy trinket and put him near your Orc Warboss. That way the killing blow will be unstoppable once it lands. In addition, you need to max out your Warbosses attacks. Akrit Axe, gnashas, and effigy of mork is probably the best all around build for this.

The key thing is that if you take a Savage Orc Warboss he is only WS 6 compared to the Vamp Lords 7. If you take a Warboss, make him a Black Orc (ws7), put him on a boar with mundane armor, give him the setup above, and put him in the regular orc unit. This means nothing in his army will hit you with under 5's, except Banner of the Barrows unit with Helm of Commandment on his lord. Not only does it give you MORE control over which unit your Warboss engages, but it gives your enemy more threats to worry about, especially since your frenzy orcs arent going to panic anyways and will get to combat regardless of being in your generals vicinity.

Also, make more of your Orc boyz savage, put additional choppas on all of your Orc Boy units, except for the two that you want to be your anvil units, which also houses the BSB. With the shear number of attacks and +1 str in first round of combat, coupled with 7 dispel dice, you should obliterate his core units with minimal raises in the following turn. If he is stressing over Invocations he won't macrabre outside of bound spells which lets you control the movement, combat, shotting, and his magic phase (to some extent). Frenzied Orc armies (and this is usually true) are one of the harder harmies for casty VC's to handle. Also, I would toss the Doom Diver in a tournament setting. 2 more chukkaz is one option. The other is to drop the Wolf Gobbo Big boss and add another Shaman, then upgrade both to lvl 2. It makes for a more solid list all around and for different kinds of opponents. And that should make room to add in the extra gear on your General. If you land foot of gork, awesome, hide them in some houses or behind terrain and stomp away. If he tries to chase down with wraiths, awesome, if he doesn't, thats also awesome.


Ok so as some of you know I've been playing around with orcs with pretty good success, but now they have to be ready for their first major tournament.

My biggest worry is armies like vampires or stubborn armies where I need to kill models and can't win by static CR alone.

This is my current list:

Savage orc warboss w/ great axe, iron gnashas
Black orc bigboss BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
Goblin big boss w/ wolf, one hit wunda, light armor, shield
Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
6 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician
27 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets, banner

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll


And this is the list I'm considering:

Savage orc warboss w/ great axe, iron gnashas, battle brew
Black orc bigboss BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
Goblin big boss w/ wolf, one hit wunda, light armor, shield
Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 savage orcs w/ spears and full command
25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner, musician
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll


The addition of the savage orcs adds a LOT of killing power, and hatred on the warboss 2/3 of the time helps too.

The cons of the second list is that I lose the spiders (and thus my ability to flush out nearby forests of scouts) and the night goblin unit which had acted before as a nice bunker for my BSB while helping out everywhere with the fanatics. (Plus I'd have to paint 25 savage orcs in 2 weeks...)


So what do you think? List 1 or list 2?

GodlessM
19-01-2009, 18:38
Wow that is some really sound advise there from the doc.Almost makes me want Orcs in my army over the mass of Goblins :D

Malorian
19-01-2009, 18:59
drpieceofme,

That's a lot of advice, and I'll keep it in mind. Here are some of my thoughts that led to this list:

-More spear chukkas would be nice, but I also want two chariots so I'm pretty much maxed out. The doom diver has had it's good and bad days (and more bad than good) but it's still my best way for taking out units of knights.
-I could change more of the blocks to being savaga and give them 2 choppas, but that would make them a LOT more expensive, and the point of them was cheap static CR that would hold up the enemy unit I can counter with a chariot. I also want to have the ability to flee so that I can escape hopeless combats and set up flank charges.
-I really don't think my characters are going to change much. The BSB is pretty standard and manditory, the shaman is the best bang for the buck against most armies, and the one hit wunda goblin has so many uses that I really can't see myself dropping him. (On the side, if I'm against wraiths I plan to join him to the block set to face them.)
-The warboss... well I've had a lot of negative feedback on him, and it even goes completely against Avian who's tactica I've used like a bible. For 20 points cheaper that extra attack just seems like a steal compared to the +1WS. Like you said a vampire lord is WS 7 so I'll be hitting on 4+ no matter which one I am. I also get the 6+ ward, which even though it isn't much, along with the T5 and three wounds should keep me alive long enough to allow me to attack back. The akkrit axe has been a ver popular suggestion, but str 7 just seems to make all the difference. I have the magic number against chariots, I fair better against monsters, and I punch through more armor. He just seems like the best bang for the buck.


But I take it from your comments that you would like the second list better?

Malorian
20-01-2009, 03:18
Wow, I'm amazed the first list is winning. When I found a way to squeeze in those savage orcs I thought it was a great idea and just wanted to make sure it was worth the trade...

Fredmans
20-01-2009, 18:12
If you really want the Savages, I would skip one orc block and load up on those support units you miss. You almost get spider riders and a unit of night goblins with netters OR one fanatic for the same price.

On the other hand, I have no good experience from big blocks of savages. It almost forces you to put your warboss there and you have all the eggs in one basket that cannot flee. I have better experience of savage "detachments". 10 savages with additional choppas and a musician. Cheap, poses a threat and disposable, and carve through skeletons and zombies.

In a tournament, I do not know if Wraiths are viable. There are a lot of strong magic phases around (daemons, warriors, dark elves) that might scare VC players from fielding etherals. I would put my hopes to that, since Ethereals are a real pain in the *** for O&G.

/Fredmans

fishound7
20-01-2009, 22:33
so ... a unit of 10 savage orc big uns with extra choppa is ace. 15 str 5 attacks first round of combat for only 140 points. This unit doesn't spread around panic either due to itp.

Gokamok
21-01-2009, 11:20
If you really want the Savages, I would skip one orc block and load up on those support units you miss. You almost get spider riders and a unit of night goblins with netters OR one fanatic for the same price.

On the other hand, I have no good experience from big blocks of savages. It almost forces you to put your warboss there and you have all the eggs in one basket that cannot flee. I have better experience of savage "detachments". 10 savages with additional choppas and a musician. Cheap, poses a threat and disposable, and carve through skeletons and zombies.

In a tournament, I do not know if Wraiths are viable. There are a lot of strong magic phases around (daemons, warriors, dark elves) that might scare VC players from fielding etherals. I would put my hopes to that, since Ethereals are a real pain in the *** for O&G.

/Fredmans

Wraiths seem to be the favorite choice for VC players in a lot of tournaments. At the UK GT heat 3, I believe ALL VC players had at least 1 unit of wraiths, 2 players had a Varghulf, 1-2 had a unit of Blood Knights, and I don't think I saw any coaches.
It is quite easy to keep Wraiths out of LOS from magic missiles and they're quite impressive against deamons as long as they get to charge, so you'll definitely be seeing Wraiths at a tournament. Lots of Wraiths.

A friend of mine plays a very solid O&G list with 3 big blocks of savages with additional choppas and a warboss very similar to yours. I barely managed a draw against him with a "balanced" VC list (only 10 PD), and the savages simply obliterated my 25-strong blocks of skellies on the charge.
I'm not quite sure how well savage orcs fare against deamons (though I think they'll do quite well), but they are definitely a very strong option against VC.

I'm not an O&G expert, but how about going with 3 blocks of 24ish savages 6-wide rather than the 4 blocks of basic orcs? You'd get a lot more killing power, and I believe you could live without the extra infantry block since you have quite a few support units.

Gharof von Carstein
21-01-2009, 12:54
well mal, all i can say is good luck and i agree you need more savage orc units. my mate will be fielding the following list on a big tournament in 2 weeks (a sort of mini GT) maybe youll get some inspiration from it.

Characters:
270 - Black Orc Warboss; Heavy Armour, Boar, Enchanted Shield, Bigged's Kickin' Boots, Ulag's Akrit Axe, Dispel Scroll.
180 - Black Orc Bigboss; Heavy Armour, Boar, Battlestandard bearer, Mork's Spirit Totem.
157 - Black Orc Bigboss; Heavy Armour, Shield, Boar, Shaga's Screamin' Sword.
100 - Night Goblin Shaman; Staff of Sneaky Stealin'.

Core:
282 - Savage Orc Boyz x 28; Boss, Standard bearer, Musician, Spears.
282 - Savage Orc Boyz x 28; Boss, Standard bearer, Musician, Spears.
273 - Savage Orc Boyz x 27; Boss, Standard bearer, Musician, Spears.
60 - Goblin Wolfriders x 5.

Special:
176 - Savage Orc Boar Boyz x 5; Shields, Big 'Uns, Standard bearer, Musician.
70 - Goblin Spear Chukkas x 2.
70 - Goblin Spear Chukkas x 2.

Rare:
80 - Goblin Doom Diver Catapult.

Total 2000 points.

I like this list. Weve been playing around with this concept for weeks and its a powerfull list. sure he could make the boyz units smaller but with the points he frees with them he could add a lone chariot with no trimmings or a unit of wolfriders and give them both spears. id rather have the larger number of core in a field full of VC. you cant get outnumbered in the tourney were going or those boyz will lose their frenzy and get whacked.

happy_doctor
21-01-2009, 14:03
I voted for your original list. The reasoning behind the vote isn't my deep knowledge of O&G tactics (which I don't posess), but a single, experience-derived fact:

99% of the time, you will do better with a list you know well, than with a more powerful build you haven't playtested.

Now, on to some comments on your lists:

-The battlebrew doesn't seem worth it to me...You pay 25 points for a 2 in 3 chance of getting hatred. The magic choppa that lets you re-roll in 1st round (can't remember the name) can do this for the same cost, while giving you magical attacks.
Plus, risking stupidity in an army that's already handicapped by animosity isn't wise in my book.

-What's the reasoning behind the 6-man wolf rider unit with banner? I can see your "one hit wunda" going in there, but do you feel that it's really necessary to take the banner? Given the survivability of wolf riders, i'd say it's a risky move. (100 free VP's for your opponents and the such)

-Keep the night goblins, you seem to have mastered the fanatic tactics (sending them through your units in order for them to end up in the charge path of enemy units - who then take double damage for ending their movement on top of them) and the nets make them nearly as resilient as the orcs you're fielding.

Malorian
21-01-2009, 14:15
-The battlebrew doesn't seem worth it to me...You pay 25 points for a 2 in 3 chance of getting hatred. The magic choppa that lets you re-roll in 1st round (can't remember the name) can do this for the same cost, while giving you magical attacks.
Plus, risking stupidity in an army that's already handicapped by animosity isn't wise in my book.

-What's the reasoning behind the 6-man wolf rider unit with banner? I can see your "one hit wunda" going in there, but do you feel that it's really necessary to take the banner? Given the survivability of wolf riders, i'd say it's a risky move. (100 free VP's for your opponents and the such)

The battle brew is 15 points, so it will usually let me reroll for cheaper and the akkrit axe is kinda out since I really have grown to like the str7. If I change to anything it will probably be to the 100 point battle axe :D

The upgraded wolve unit has the ability to take on weak blocks if they hit their flank, stand a better chance against everything in general, and if I join the goblin BB to them they can even take on stronger opponents. The banner is a risk, and I've had to be extra careful with that unit. Downgrading this back down to just the plain 5 wolves was almost a positive rather than a negative for the second list in a way.


I'm still confussed because most of what I'm reading here is 'take savage orcs!' and yet in the poll the list without savage orcs is winning :confused:

Commodus Leitdorf
21-01-2009, 15:01
Well I like Savages, though my experience with them is with a unit of 12 Big'un Savages with spears on the flank. They do give your army some extra hitting power, but I always find its better to go with the army you know...unless you can get some practice in with the Savages I say stick to you original list.

Malorian
21-01-2009, 15:50
Well they are part of my 3k list, so I have used them a couple of times, and will get more at a different tournament this weekend (3 games, 2k/3k/4k).

EldarBishop
21-01-2009, 18:53
My O&G lore is pretty low. But the 1st list seems to be more flexible.

If you wanted to add the Savage Orcs into the first list by dropping off a unit of reg. Orcs, and maybe one of the wolf rider units, that might be better. Unsure on actual points.

Dead Man Walking
23-01-2009, 00:17
I'm a real big fan of putting a savage orc on a chariot with battle brew, makes the whole chariot frenzied and hatred, impact hits, 4 boar attacks, 2 rider attacks, 4-5 Savage orc attacks and all of it with rerolls to hit. Its a big can of whoopins!

Malorian
23-01-2009, 05:09
I'm a real big fan of putting a savage orc on a chariot with battle brew, makes the whole chariot frenzied and hatred, impact hits, 4 boar attacks, 2 rider attacks, 4-5 Savage orc attacks and all of it with rerolls to hit. Its a big can of whoopins!

I like that... I like that a lot :evilgrin:

I'm thinking I'd actually like to add the brew to my black orc BB on a chariot. I'll only have a 1/3 chance of hatred, but then I get the Waaagh move and those bonus's if I get it.

I like the cut of your jib DMW ;)

barbadark
23-01-2009, 06:01
I would go for thr one without savage orcs.

I tried the stunt with savage orcs and in 80% of the times my enemys either just circulate the squad or they force me to charge and then they flee. This making my block standing in a totally wrong direction, getting enemie in the flank.

And I agree that you should cnsider champions...cheap an get 1+a, 1+ WS, 1+ S.

invinciblebug
23-01-2009, 06:18
I'm a real big fan of putting a savage orc on a chariot with battle brew, makes the whole chariot frenzied and hatred, impact hits, 4 boar attacks, 2 rider attacks, 4-5 Savage orc attacks and all of it with rerolls to hit. Its a big can of whoopins!

Whenever I use this I take Porkos pigstakka, that gives me 11+d6 str 5 attcks :chrome:and 4 str 4 attacks against a fully ranked unit. It's very funny :evilgrin:.