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View Full Version : The Unstoppable Force Meets the Unmovable Object



Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 19:32
Similiar thread title I know :)

I want to throw this out just for fun. Sometimes you see or hear about something and think: "How on earth would I beat that?"

Well I ran into one of those pretty recently. I make it my goal to never complain about 'cheese' and such (though daemons sorely test me) and instead focus on what I need to do as a General to defeat such things.

So I present to you...THE UNSTOPPABLE FORCE!
(2020 points)
Count Manfred
Hellsteed
4 attacks Str5

Vampire
Battle Standard Bearer
Hellsteed
Drakenhof Banner (unit regenerates)
Heavy Armor, Great Weapon

20 Blood knights
Full Command
The Flag of Bloodkeep (4+ ward vs shooting)
3 attacks, Str6

Assume 7 wide static combat of 5. (2 banner, 2 ranks, outnumber)

4 attacks, WS7 S5 (Manfred)
3 attacks, WS6 S6 (BSB)
19 attacks, WS5, S5/7 (Blood knights)


And now, my counter to this beast...THE IMMOVABLE OBJECT!
(1279 points)
Dreadlord
Crimson Death
Potion of Strength
Armor of Eternal Servitude
3+ armor save
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
(5 attacks, S9)

Master
Battle Standard Bearer
Hydra banner (+1 attack for everyone)
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
Halberd
3+ armor save
(4 attacks, S5)

Master
Pearl of Infinite Bleakness (immune to Psycology)
Soul Render
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
3+ armor
(4 attacks, S6)

Master
Enchanted Shield
Pendant of Khaeleth
Hand Weapon
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
2+/1+ armor save (built to take challenges)
(4 attacks, S4)

Black Guard x 20
Tower master, Whip of Agony (4 attacks, S5 armor piercing)
Standard Bearer, Always Strikes First Banner
Musician

Assassin
+D3 attacks
Killing Blow
Extra Hand Weapon
Repeater Hand Bow

Assuming 7 wide we have a static combat res of 4 (banner, Army banner, 2 ranks).

Front rank contains:
5 attacks, WS7 Str9 (lord)
4 attacks, WS6 Str5 (BSB)
4 attacks, WS6 Str6 (Master)
5 attacks, WS6 Str4 (Master)
6-8 attacks, WS9 Str4 killing Blow (assassin)
4 attacks, WS5 Str5 armor piercing (Tower Master)
3 attacks, WS5 Str4 (rank and file)

31-33 attacks all together!
18 S3 Armor peircing Stand and Shoot attacks before combat (hitting on 3's)

Assuming for the excersize that the Blood Knights will get the charge and the Black Guard will strike first.

Anyone want to lay bets on what happens before we Math Hammer it?

Does anyone else have an idea on how to stop the Blood knight unit of DOOM?

W0lf
19-01-2009, 19:42
Yes its called a blood thirster with flamming S7 and a flank charge.

If you wanted an equally powerful death star....

well i dunno but i reckon 3 heralds of nurgle in a unit of 60 plaguebearers would have a go.

Just sit epidemus behind the unit and let the rolling begin.

Malorian
19-01-2009, 19:42
I really don't know how you are going to do the math seeing as how it's so important where the attacks are directed and which character is attacked by which.

The Red Scourge
19-01-2009, 19:46
Two words:

Infernal Gateway.

Though my Wood Elves really lack the LoT, but they should be able to devote an eagle or two to divert the unit ;)

W0lf
19-01-2009, 19:48
Indeed.

Also the whole combat could come down to the assasins rolling. If he scores a killing blow on the BSB, its AUTO-DEAD. Leaving a S9 dreadlord to kill 3-4 blood knights and pretty much win right there.

Oh and about diversion... the army does have manfred in it so vanhels could be a bit of an issue ;)

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 19:55
Yes its called a blood thirster with flamming S7 and a flank charge. Would get owned...

Any and all Blood knights can issue a challenge. So they just challenge, lose a guy, raise a guy next turn. They've got 3 combat res, so it's not like their going to lose horribly no matter what.

Manfred gets 8 casting dice to resurrect BK's each round as well.


Infernal Gateway. Manfred has 4 dispel dice, so it isn't like he has no chance of stopping it. Let alone the fact that Infernal Gateway isn't exactly guaranteed to go off, not miscast or even get rolled in the first place. And then if it does, you need to roll an 11 or 12 to actually nuke the unit. Otherwise they'll regenerate half of your kills anyway.

Not a good solution.

Malorian
19-01-2009, 20:25
The best solution to the 2020 point blood knight deathstar: 57 spear chukkas ;)

vinny t
19-01-2009, 20:39
Wasn't that a line from the Dark Knight?

Anyway, I think it could be stopped by a HUGE unit of chaos chosen with Festus, Sigvald, and a BSB that makes it Stubborn.

Something like...
39 Chosen with Full Command, Mark of Nurgle, Shields, Favor of the Gods and the Banner of Rage
Sigvald
Festus
Exalted Hero BSB on Juggernaut with Mark of Khorne and the Banner of the Gods
Exalted Hero on Juggernaut with Mark of Khorne with Blasphemous Amulet and Axe of Khorne

Total is something like 1528 + Sigvald (don't have the book with me)

OR


52 Knights of Nurgle with full command and Banner of Rage
Archeon
Exalted Hero BSB on Juggernaut with Mark of Khorne and the Banner of the Gods
Exalted Hero on Juggernaut with Mark of Khorne with Blasphemous Amulet and Axe of Khorne

Total is something like 2640 + Archeon


There is the Unstoppible Force (Knights) and the Immovable Object (Chosen)

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 20:41
What do spear chucka's do?

Can they get past 2+ armor, T4,4+ ward (vs shooting) and regen?

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 20:46
Oh and as an aside, this was run at the Fantasy 'Ard Boyz last year. No one killed it, but someone did manage to lead them off into the woods and pull enough of a win to keep him out of the finals.

Disciple of Caliban
19-01-2009, 20:47
^^ Nah, i've a better one, the best solution to a 2020pt uber unit, play 2k games :)

Having said that i wouldnt bother killing such a unit, just lend it a merry dance for the duration of the game (fast cav, eagles, lords on dragons, whatever is nearby). Its never going to recoup its cost, so keep it out of the game, execute the rest of his force and get yourself a minor victory.

Or, take the uber unkillable dreadlord, and stick him into the flank of the unit, with a BSB nearby (though not in the combat). I dont have time to math hammer it, but i'd imagine the dreadlord would have a good chance at holding them up for most of a game (he shouldnt take many wounds, so combat would be decided largely by his kills Vs their static res. Couple that with his high leadership and a BSB and he shouldnt be running too soon).

Also, a small point. I'm pretty sure the vampire BSB is illegal. Unless something has changed without me noticing (seems to happen a lot lately) he cant use a great weapon and carry the standard. (he needs one hand to hold the banner, so BSBs cant have 2 handed weapons or shields)

Malorian
19-01-2009, 20:49
They are a bolt thrower, so no armor saves are allowed, and they'll wound on a 2+.

So at long range they will kill 4 models (57*1/3*5/6*1/2*1/2) and at short range they will kill 6 models (57*1/2*5/6*1/2*1/2). Plus when they kill they go through ranks.

Wow... that's actually not that good... I was expecting they would do a lot more damage... :wtf::eek::cries:

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 20:49
The Blood Knightds unit is from my memory, so if it's messed up it's my fault not the other guys. But on that note, a BSB can take whatever mundane equipment. The standard is on his back?

Malorian
19-01-2009, 20:51
Yup. The new books have the 'banner on the back'.

Disciple of Caliban
19-01-2009, 20:54
^^ Quoted from wood elf army book, because its the one closest to hand, the passage is the same in all books i've checked in 'The battle standard bearer...cannot choose any extra non-magical weapons, nor may he use a shield'

The old VC BSB having the standard on his back is just to make it look cool

EDIT: Hmm, i'll go check my Daemon book then, if so thats great. Though kind of sucks for armies still using older books (read as, my wood elves :) )

Malorian
19-01-2009, 21:02
Yup, your wood elves are a little too old ;)

decker_cky
19-01-2009, 21:13
Wall of fire would be pretty good, as would conflagion of doom. But the bloodthirster would win over time I think.

How about 2 units of 6 flamers shooting in the flanks continuously? Add in a master of sorcery/twin heads lore of fire lord of change and a herald with the same and still cost less, and you have a dead unit over a few turns (the knights never get the charge on any of those units).

xragg
19-01-2009, 21:19
You dont try to beat the eggs-all-in-one-basket unit, you kill the rest and control table quarters. Like someone said, that unit will never earn its points back. The unit is basically a large point's denial, so you have to play the same way. Deny points while cleaning his clock of the other points he has. This tactic is really no different then playing a Drychia list and not bringing anything onto the table till the last turn, shot-magic anything close, and getting nothing worse then a draw or a minor victory.

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 21:37
'Ignoring' it is not as easy as some people would have you believe. It's denying you 2000 points. It only has to kill a couple hundred to squeeze an edge in victory points. If it catches an expensive unit, you're hosed.

W0lf
19-01-2009, 21:45
oh God its 2020 pts? Didnt realise that...

In which case;

Archaon

24 Nurgle chaos knights
FC, banner of rage

BSB on foot
with stubborn banner sitting behind unit (so he cant be killed)

'All' you have to do is kill the BSB who has regen with archaon (not actually that hard) and then watch old archey chew through the unit like its not there.

Plus you win by 1 and the blood knights lose 1 S5 and 1S4 whereas the nurgle knights never lose frenzy. Nurgle knights also have better AS and the blood knight horses hit on 5's due to MoN. Once the banner is gone the nurgle will trash them. Infact this is giving me an idea :P

EndlessBug
19-01-2009, 22:04
8 dwarf Bolt throwers with rune of burning and penetratin (+1 random to make them legal)

long range:
4 hit
2's, 2's, 3's = 8 dead

short range
5.7 hit so lets call it 6
2's, 2's, 3's = 12 dead

Thoek makes it move at half speed and gives you heaps of dispel dice.

W0lf
19-01-2009, 22:09
Yes that was my other thought.

BTW does your maths count the 4+ ward save against shooting in it?

Oh and with thorek you get 7 DD. Not bad.

My way is more fun though ^^

xragg
19-01-2009, 22:15
Would get owned...

Any and all Blood knights can issue a challenge. So they just challenge, lose a guy, raise a guy next turn. They've got 3 combat res, so it's not like their going to lose horribly no matter what.

Manfred gets 8 casting dice to resurrect BK's each round as well.

Not a good solution.

I really dont see that. The bloodthirster will kill about 6 knights a turn, well enough to overcome the knights static CR of 2 (not 3 since they are hit in the flank by US5 unit). The thirster will go first, 8 rerollable attacks, negate both armor and regen saves. And thats just 25% of the cost of the knight unit, bogging them down the whole game, if not eventually killing it. It leaves tons of points for other demon fun to deal with the rest of the undead army.

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 22:16
guys I like the thinking with the Bolt Throwers but I don't think it would get the job done. 2 turns of shooting max and then you're jumped and demolished.

And I think you did forget the 4+ ward against shooting.

7 DD is awesome, but how many raise attempts is it actually going to stop?

You guys keep forgetting that any of the Blood knights may accept a challenge, so killing the BSB or Manfred is next to impossible. For your Wolf, would you need the charge to pull it off?


The bloodthirster will kill about 6 knights a turn
He will kill ONE knight per turn. Though he may generate 6 combat res from it. There's a difference.

Also anything situational that requires you to get a flank, charge or count on terrain should be taken out of the equation. If the BT doesn't hit a Flank he is finished turn 1. If he doesn't charge, same thing.

Lord Malorne
19-01-2009, 22:19
:eyebrows: don't declare a challenge, just direct attacks on them.

solvay
19-01-2009, 22:21
id say go with as many orc shaman lords as you can get and then as many orc shamans in whatevr points this will be all with power stones or sumfin
then max out on night goblins with fanatics and hope for the waagh spell

even if it didnt work itd be funny as hell

@ lord malone.. what if a blood knight challenges then??

W0lf
19-01-2009, 22:35
For your Wolf, would you need the charge to pull it off?

Actually the opposite. Id need you to charge me because id be linning Archaon up opposite your BSB.

Then you can challenge all you want because Archys ganna get you.

My unit is stubborn LD 10 with a re-roll afterall ;)

Lord Malorne
19-01-2009, 22:35
@ lord malone.. what if a blood knight challenges then??

:eyebrows: Accept with the unit champion.

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 22:36
Guys I am not saying your idea's aren't good, they are, but they are not all that guaranteed to work. I am so impressed with my own little plan because all it requires is that they charge me. Since they're Frenzied, it should not be hard to make happen.

Also, Van Hels has been mentioned but it should be again.

14 inch normal movement + 8 inch from Van Hels gives them 22". A Blood thirster has a fly of 20. So if he stops within 22 inches he gets charged. If he stops outside, he himself cannot charge.

You could probably work it so that you were out of their LOS, 21 inches away and make them wheel, so they can't get the charge off, but then they are facing you if you want to charge them. Fly over you say? Turn, move...Van Hels move...

Of course the two units could end up dancing all game.


lord malone.. what if a blood knight challenges then?? Exactly. And since any of them can challenge, they can even do it in a flank or rear attack.

@solvay; options that may not work but are fun as hell are always good!

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 22:37
Malone, we're having tow different conversations. A Bloodthirster with a Flank charge will not get 6 kills due to challenge. It must accept and any knight can challenge.

Archaon will not kill the BSB because any knight can take his challenge.

Good enough?

W0lf
19-01-2009, 22:38
No... seriously my unit actually wins.

Archaon on average kills the BSB. That then puts me at a likely loss followed by LD 10 stubborn.

Then your going to be losing alot of combats wit no regen vs crumble.

No because Archeon dosnt challenge you mook. If you challenge with BSb archy accepts. Challenge with anything else and unit champ does. Archy then kills BSB. job done.

solvay
19-01-2009, 22:38
i was thinking more in the terms of bloodthirster in the flank being challanged... otherwise your ideas are good

@Dizzo... he doesnt have to challenge with Archaon just be in btb to hit him which he will line up and then let you charge.. and if you do challenge him his champion will accept

Lord Malorne
19-01-2009, 22:41
Malone, we're having tow different conversations. A Bloodthirster with a Flank charge will not get 6 kills due to challenge. It must accept and any knight can challenge.

Archaon will not kill the BSB because any knight can take his challenge.

Good enough?

I am not talking about a bloodthirster, I was not talking about any unit (other than a unit with a unit champion).

You are getting hung up on challenges, archaon does not have to challenge, all he has to do is direct attacks however he pleases.

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 22:49
I guess that's all dependant on Archaron ending up in BTB with the Standard Bearer right? And he can be raised again next round as neat as you please.

W0lf
19-01-2009, 22:52
Which is why i said id let you charge (so i can line him up ofc.)

And yes you can raise back that 1 wound. But tbh Archy will still have him.

Hell its probably a good idea to drop a few knights to take a khorne exalted with enchanted shield, jugger just to tie you up so archy can get to work.

Lord Malorne
19-01-2009, 22:53
I guess that's all dependant on Archaron ending up in BTB with the Standard Bearer right? And he can be raised again next round as neat as you please.

The unit standard. Yes.

The BSB. NO!

W0lf
19-01-2009, 22:54
Oh and as said before;

My knights are infinitly better once you lose combat. Infact only time you beat me is on charge.. then my knights are better and cheaper.

therisnosaurus
19-01-2009, 23:00
Lessee.

70 odd temple guard with full command, Slaan with lore of light, a few power stones and other buffers and 3 scar vets with assorted magic items including the gleaming pendant of chotec. Slaan has totem of prophesy, guard have warbanner

This is assuming the new book, I strike first when you charge with 12 str 7 attacks, naturally allocating as many as possible to the BSB. Also another 12 str 4 attacks and a 2 up save.

Next turn you take d6 str 6 hits, any wounded guys get healed, and you're weapon skill 1, meaning you hit on 5's and I squish you on 3's

oh, yeah, if you win, I'm rolling on stubborn, cold blooded leadership 9 with re-rolls. ain't going anywhere jimmy.

W0lf
19-01-2009, 23:08
So thats 2 units that have you beat.

3rd anyone?

Id like to add that somethign like;

30 dwarf hammerers with front rank of heros would love you long time.

Just to help aswell the unit would be about 3x better with a wight bsb then a vampire one. +1 T, +1 W and KB goes a long way.

xragg
19-01-2009, 23:41
Guys I am not saying your idea's aren't good, they are, but they are not all that guaranteed to work. I am so impressed with my own little plan because all it requires is that they charge me. Since they're Frenzied, it should not be hard to make happen.

Also, Van Hels has been mentioned but it should be again.

14 inch normal movement + 8 inch from Van Hels gives them 22". A Blood thirster has a fly of 20. So if he stops within 22 inches he gets charged. If he stops outside, he himself cannot charge.

You could probably work it so that you were out of their LOS, 21 inches away and make them wheel, so they can't get the charge off, but then they are facing you if you want to charge them. Fly over you say? Turn, move...Van Hels move...

Of course the two units could end up dancing all game.

Exactly. And since any of them can challenge, they can even do it in a flank or rear attack.

@solvay; options that may not work but are fun as hell are always good!

Not sure why you keep saying a bloodthirster can only kill 1 model in a challenge. So what? 550 pnts is keeping your 2020 pnts busy doing NOTHING all game. Also, sorry, but your blood knights will have to charge say "furies" or whatever bait unit demons wants to put out. A bloodthirsty will easily outmanavure a knight unit that can be march blocked and has to wheel. ...but i can VanHel's!!!! Ya, after you dont move that turn cause you had to reform from chasing furies. That's also assuming the demon player didnt bring a magic heavy list with scribes, sunder banner, and other stuff. Dont forget, 2020 vs 550 allows ALOT for demons to have over you.

Dooks Dizzo
19-01-2009, 23:45
Guys, take a second here. This is not MY BK death star. It's someone elses. The whole thread is just an excersize and if it's giving people idea's or pushing you to think about tactics, awesome.

MY idea is the Black Guard death star, which I am quite proud of. It's 3/5th the cost of the Blood Knights and will most certainly demolish them.

I am putting forth the other side of the tactical equation. Just 'Blood Thirster in the flank' didn't seem to cover it.

Wolf's Archeon lead unit of doom is just about perfect. Archeon himself pretty much covers most the possibilities really :)

Lizards beating these fools down is just funny!

The Red Scourge
20-01-2009, 05:04
How about more WoC.

I'll elaborate on my Infernal Gateway and continue on WoC Tzeentch casters.

Involving Tendrils of Tzeentch, Infernal Puppet, Black Tongue. This should give Mannie something to worry about.

1 Daemon Prince + 3 Disc Riders – These should be hard to catch, as Van Hels can still be dispelled, and lots of Flickering Fire is rather bad for regeneration.

Lots and lots and lots of dogs, as there is nothing like a 2020 point unit chasing 30 points.

..

Or when we're insisting on using SCs, then just good ol' Archie tucked safely away in a challenge – if not, he'll tear your characters apart – with his Banner of the Gods within 6". Re-Rollable stubborn Ld 10 on a nigh immortal character – thats unstoppable force.

You still have more than 1000 points to take 3 table edges and beat the rest of his non existant army. Add a group of nurgle knights with a warbanner to the mix, encircle and suddenly you add a rear charge that in total amounts to 7 CR before casulties (3 denied ranks + 2 rear + 2 SCR = OUCH!).

..

The BKs are quite impossible to deal with for a lot of builds, but there are tools to do this – the key thing would be their frenzy, which allows you to choose their targets. Will it be a fun and interesting game? Nope, either you'll have the tools and formulate the strategy, or you'll be squashed with no influence on the game.

– honestly I don't understand, why people interested in mindless entertainment don't just go and watch TV instead of playing warhammer ;)

Jagosaja
20-01-2009, 05:20
Ummm, I have a better immovable object for, by your calculation, 2020 points. That would be...

505 ZOMBIES !!!!!!

I fail to see someone destroy this unit in a game. It just cannot be done. Say it is in combat from round one, so it is 12 rounds of combat. One would have to destroy really huge amounts of Zombies to bring the unit down because the Zombies will outnumber :) and will have guaranteed three ranks for CR :)

Dooks Dizzo
20-01-2009, 05:32
How wide are the Zombies?

12 CoK's with the Hydra Banner is 48 attacks per round, all hitting on 3's and killing on 2's.

27 kills per round, zombies lose by 27= 54 kills per round of combat.

Don't even need all 12 :)

Kerill
20-01-2009, 06:21
Herald of Tzeentch, master of sorcery: beasts
Herald of Tzeentch, master of sorcery: beasts
Herald of Tzeentch, master of sorcery: beasts
- that unit is going nowhere.
(520 points)
36 horrors, standard of sorcery
36 horrors, standard of sorcery
36 horrors, standard of sorcery
26 horrors, standard of sorcery.

That unit will die

Some points left over, could always add the blue scribes in and take metal or fire.

EndlessBug
20-01-2009, 08:32
Ok, firstly Archaeon doesn't work as well as you think. Mainly because the Vamp doesn't have to challenge at all, he can just let the WoC player declare a challenge, if archie declares then unit champ accepts, if unit champ declares BSB accepts. Therefore the BSB won't get hit in the first turn, although probably in the 2nd turn.

Dooks - you only get hydra banner in first round of combat, but you could get a CoB to give +1 attack.

Alternatively, buy 27 BG, a CoB, a Hydra banner. +1 attack from the CoB every round, +1 from Hydra in first round:

1st round:
7 frontage:
25 str 4 attacks 3's to hit re-rolls (6 BG with champ) and 5 str 4 attacks 3's with re-rolls (BSB)
26 hits, 2's to kill = 22 dead
+5 CR (3 ranks, std, bsb)
-6 from (3 ranks, std, outnumber)
=21 more dead

43 dead

subsequent rounds:
19 str 4 attacks 3's to hit re-rolls and 4 str 4 attacks 3's:
18 hits, 2's to kill = 15 dead
+5 CR (3 ranks, std, bsb)
-6 from (3 ranks, std, outnumber)
=14 more dead

29 dead per phase

so in 12 rounds:
43+29*11 = 362 dead

and you got the roughly 1200 points of the rest of the army, start of with a couple of soul stealers on the unit and you're laughing. Flank attacks, rear?

The dwarf bolt throwers:
I didn't take account of the 4+ ward from shooting, my bad, only took account of regen which was ignored due to flaming attacks.

However do remember that the anvil can half the movement with its damage spell, casting that every turn means the knights are moving at 8" per turn. The army could easily have a runesmith as well with the stealing a pd rune and a spellbreaker meaning 9 DD and a dispel scroll.

Also the bolt throwers will be spread so even if the unit did get into combat with them then it'd be 1 or 2 per turn, bung them out along the flank and you'll get a load more shots.

Jagosaja
20-01-2009, 09:44
How wide are the Zombies?

12 CoK's with the Hydra Banner is 48 attacks per round, all hitting on 3's and killing on 2's.

27 kills per round, zombies lose by 27= 54 kills per round of combat.

Don't even need all 12 :)

Actually it would be 27+24=51, since those CoK's won't have ranks :p

I could reduce those Zombies by 200 pts (40 Zombies) and put a Vampire with Helm of Commandment behind them to give WS6. Would make 20 kills, so it is 20+17=37 Zombies down per round. Muahahahaha :evilgrin:

W0lf
20-01-2009, 10:00
Ok, firstly Archaeon doesn't work as well as you think. Mainly because the Vamp doesn't have to challenge at all, he can just let the WoC player declare a challenge, if archie declares then unit champ accepts, if unit champ declares BSB accepts. Therefore the BSB won't get hit in the first turn, although probably in the 2nd turn.

What dont people get about this;

Chaos charges (unlikely);

Chaos; no challenge
Vampire; a) no challenge and Archy kills bsb
b) challenge with bsb and Archy accepts and kills him
c) Challenge with anything other then bsb and champon accepts.

Simple? Same thing happens for vice versa.


Oh and to realiterate my BT comment how about this....

2x Blood thirster
firestorm blade, immortal fury, armour of khorne (2x as resiliant to S5)

Herald of Tzeentch with fly and stubborn banner.

5 furies.

1. Force blood knights to charge furies, they will kill them and overun.
2. Having plannded this correctly the blood thirsters will now dual charge the blood knights.
3. 2 Stubborn ld 9 blood thirsters in the front.
4. one blood thirster gets challenged, the other kills BSB.
5. few rounds of combat and dice rolling....
6. Good game.

Leogun_91
20-01-2009, 11:02
I would meet it with one dwarf boltthrower with a dwarf lord (made to last with all his runes being defensive) the boltthrower has the valiant rune (unbreakable), the lord stands and after six turns itīs over.

sulla
20-01-2009, 11:14
How wide are the Zombies?

12 CoK's with the Hydra Banner is 48 attacks per round, all hitting on 3's and killing on 2's.

27 kills per round, zombies lose by 27= 54 kills per round of combat.

Don't even need all 12 :)

The hydra banner only works in the first round, then you have thrown that CoK unit straight into a tarpit. Plus, why would the zombie payer play his tarpit 13+ wide? And did you figure in the BSB's attacks on the DE side and the helm on the VC side?

blurred
20-01-2009, 11:35
Chaos; no challenge

They have to challenge, if I'm not totally mistaken.

My approach would be:

4*Blood knights
- Standard
- Banner of Hellfire

Vampire
- BSB
- Dread knight
- Banner of Strigos

Now that's something like 500 points so a couple of dire wolf units would probably let me charge the flank of that death star and brutalize it to bits. :)

mossel
20-01-2009, 11:42
lore of metal, first and last spell :) it ain't shooting, so no ward save. it's flaming, so no regeneration, oh, and it's no armour save allowed too :D

W0lf
20-01-2009, 13:40
Mossel youd need teclis to make sure you cast it and its not dispelled, he does have 5 DD.

Oh and you'll likely have 1 turn, 2 max of casting before he hits you.

My God archaon actually has eye of the gods *looks to sig with fire in eyes*

In that case id drop the stubborn bsb for a chaos lord of khorne with axe of khorne on jugger.

The khorne lord would challenge so you ether die with the BSB in challenge or archy smashes you.

Tis all the same ^^

EDIT: and without bsb im still LD 10 with re-roll. You need to win by like 4 (unlikely) to reliably break me.

acsmedic
20-01-2009, 16:04
I could stop that(well if all when according to "plan") with 20 WOC FC MON with Rage banner,Sword and Board and a Khorne BSB(warbanner) Jugger along with 30 points of warhounds or 86 points of marauder cav. Bait with the hounds/cav into a flank charge from the warriors.

13 str 4 ws5 attacks with a 2+ AS and 5 str 5 attacks with 1+ AS (and the two jugger attacks) at the BK WS of 4 (-1 from the Nurgle) so I would start combat with CR of 7 vs 3 or go 6x3+ and add another 3 attacks with a starting CR of 6

In the flank this would win each round and pound them into the ground. If I failed to kill any one that is only 10 WS4 (nurgle) st 5 attacks back wounding on 3's with a 4+ AS ....

Not to mention this is only about 600pts so all I need is to hold a turn before my knights charge in.... and lets not forget about my warshrine boosting my warriors as well.

W0lf
20-01-2009, 16:31
Oh just incase anyone else didnt run the maths;

To crumble blood knights you will need to win by 4 to kill one.

win by 4 = 2 passed regen = 1 less dies due to bsb.

So say you win by an astounding 10... thats 4 dead knights.

The way to win is to kill the regen banner and be able to hold, after that its really very easy. The bsb only has 2 T4 wounds with a 2+/4+ and thats pretty damn easy to kill when tooled against.

Oh and dont forget manfred will be 1 dice raising the blood knights back.

Dooks Dizzo
20-01-2009, 18:04
Also remember that Manfred gets an extra power dice for each kill.

Lord Malorne
20-01-2009, 18:35
Also remember that Manfred gets an extra power dice for each kill.

...Depends what turn it is...

wolsey
20-01-2009, 18:50
How about screamers? str 5 flaming not ranged slashing attack. You can have 24 for 720 points and they will kill 8 knights per slashing run. Leaves plenty of points left over for the rest of the army to finsh the unit off with magic shooting etc.

Also beast cowers is somewhat of a pain for such a unit .

Gharof von Carstein
21-01-2009, 06:40
am i the first one to notice that the mentioned deathstar unit in the first post is impossible??? both vamps are on hellsteeds, thus flying and thus cant join the unit of blood knights. end of story :) (cept if you use nightmares instead).

Talash
21-01-2009, 18:58
One pretty funny thing that could possibly hand that unit its own **** would be a unit of Wraiths. No magical attacks, huh? Oh well. My 40 wraiths arent too scared all of a sudden...

W0lf
21-01-2009, 19:22
Actually manfred has magical attacks. And the out number/standard/bsb/3 ranks would be a killer for the wraiths. Pretty sure they'd lose.

Repsajanus
21-01-2009, 19:35
Similiar thread title I know :)
And now, my counter to this beast...THE IMMOVABLE OBJECT!
(1279 points)
Dreadlord
Crimson Death
Potion of Strength
Armor of Eternal Servitude
3+ armor save
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
(5 attacks, S9)

Master
Pearl of Infinite Bleakness (immune to Psycology)
Soul Render
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
3+ armor
(4 attacks, S6)




may I point out that Black Guard are already ItP and they don't need PoIB?
also read the book better : the crimson death confers the bearer S6.
no other modifiers or magic items can ever modify this, so no S9 with PoS...
don't think lists with these units are very fun to play against :p

Aglemar
21-01-2009, 19:58
Malekith, the Witch King - 600 Points

BSB Master /w Banner of Hag Grief, Heavy Armor, SDC, Great Weapon - 150 Points

Sorceress lvl 2 (Lore of Shadows) /w Pearl of Infinite Bleakness, Tome of Furion) - 185 Points

Sorceress lvl 2 (Lore of Shadows) /w Ring of Darkness - 175 Points

Assassin /w Extra Hand Weapon, Rune of Khaine, Manbane - 146 Points

Assassin /w Extra Hand Weapon, Rune of Khaine, Manbane - 146 Points

Assassin /w Extra Hand Weapon, Rune of Khaine, Manbane - 146 Points

35 Shades /w Blood Shade, Great Weapons - 648 Points

Total - 2196

Based on a interesting list I thought up but would never use. There are some variations that could make it tougher but this is fine. You could also make all 3 assassins manbane rending star assassins instead for a really nasty stand and shoot, or killing blow assassins for heavy character death (but then they would suck vs something like a blood thirster).

ASF, immune to shooting, has no flank and assassins can pop in the flank if there was one, magic resistant and mage killing, has to be 7 wide to even get a sorceress in the first row. Strong in shooting, magic and close combat. High movement and can be evasive, as well as magic itself into moving more with shadows and instantly kill characters again with shadows, with Malekith having some nice close combat spells as well (word of pain, soul stealer, and the level 6 spell I believe).

Disciple of Caliban
22-01-2009, 10:20
^^ I actually quite like the look of that list. Not really going to be overly effective, but slightly adjusted it could be great fun. I think i might try and figure out a way to get most of that into a 2k army. Thanks

wingedserpant
07-02-2009, 19:18
Would get owned...

It wouldn't.

It only has to kill a couple to prevent you getting any attacks back.

Templar_Victorious
08-02-2009, 00:50
96 Inner Circle Reiksguard knights with Kurt Helborg in charge? And 4 Light Wizards frantically trying to cast Cleansing Flare (hopefully one or two of those wizards will have it in their repetoar) and some minor state troop units guarding flanks or whatnot that is for rules-wise purpose.

I know the setup is just silly, but still....

Stmr5000
08-02-2009, 01:10
The unstoppable force has a point advantage...

Lugburz
08-02-2009, 01:17
Place skinks in the forest, force the unstoppable force to charge into the forest, then let the unstoppable force play inside the forest all day :p.

Lord Dan
08-02-2009, 02:10
Just so you're aware, that DE deathstar is hardly "yours". I've seen tons of similar incarnations with the same idea.

The Thorek list would annihilate both of them. I say this because I've seen it done. The knights got shot for something like 4 turns, because they got "anviled" and moved slow each turn.

The DE deathstar was finished even quicker.

Emeraldw
08-02-2009, 03:10
I was trying to come up with a High Elf unit that could stop it. I was thinking of 3 Heroes, Tyrion and lots of White lions. The White lions there to hold them being stubborn. I have a BSB with the +d6 CR banner, Tyrion, a mounted Noble with the amor save ignoring blade and a noble on the ground with a GW a 2+ save. The white lions would have the war banner. Ends up being 1239 with 20 white lions.

GuyLeCheval
08-02-2009, 19:19
Pump in many dispel scrolls for vanhel spam. Let them charge a slave unit via frenzy, flee, overrun into 10 censor bearers. Would cause some damage I think...

Oh and second turn, charge them w. another 10 censor beares:skull:

Oh and, of course, chakax+Slann+100 temple guard...

w3rm
08-02-2009, 22:11
156 StormVermin- 1489
FC, Ratling Gun, Shields

Warlord- 196
Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Fellblade

Chieftain- 145
Heavy Armour, Fear Banner, BSB

Chieftain-95
Languisher Blade, Warpstone Ammy

Chieftain- 95
D3 Wounds Sword

Just keep passing challenges to champ or 95 pt heroes.

Famder
09-02-2009, 01:02
Oh and, of course, chakax+Slann+100 temple guard...
Not quite that good. Chakax has to challenge so you better put him on the flanks to prevent him from getting pounded into the ground by Manfred.

If you really want to do this one the best way to do it is take Gor-Rok, Chakax, a Slann BSB w/Rumination, Becalming and Mastery for disciplines, Oldblood kitted out as you like, I recommend BBoC to go BSB hunting, TG unit with atleast 20 and Warbanner. Put Gor-Rok and Chakax at opposite corners, oldblood in the center and take a charge. Gor-Rok will negate any charge bonuses so their strength is average. Chakax has to challenge so that takes care of any way for the BSB to escape having attacks directed at him. So long as Chakax is alive the unit is unbreakable. Anything you kill is less likely to be resurrected because the Slann negate's Mannie's 6's. And unless they start directing attacks at characters any attacks they do don't really take away from your fighting rank.

If you really wanted to make it point for point even with the BK unit you counld make it 40 strong for an additional 320 points and then the unit won't have outnumbering. And it still comes out a little cheaper depending on the magic items you buy.

I might run the math later.

Michaelius
09-02-2009, 11:20
Hmm I think I'd love to face such unstoppable force with unit of 10 dwarf slayers all upgraded to giant slayers with a nice 1 man width formation and 10 ranks issuing challange every turn :D

Jagosaja
09-02-2009, 12:51
I always thought my unit of 8 Cairn Wraiths was an unstoppable force, but if you increase them to the size of 20, taking 1000 points, now that is a killer unit.

Michaelius
09-02-2009, 13:05
I always thought my unit of 8 Cairn Wraiths was an unstoppable force, but if you increase them to the size of 20, taking 1000 points, now that is a killer unit.

Only till they meet 80 dryads :)

Jagosaja
09-02-2009, 13:28
Only till they meet 80 dryads :)

:cries:

You just ruined my day.

Aglemar
09-02-2009, 17:13
Just so you're aware, that DE deathstar is hardly "yours". I've seen tons of similar incarnations with the same idea.

The Thorek list would annihilate both of them. I say this because I've seen it done. The knights got shot for something like 4 turns, because they got "anviled" and moved slow each turn.

The DE deathstar was finished even quicker.

The list this one was based off was posted in November, of course with the use of the shade death star growing you've seen more lists 'like this' but that doesn't change the fact that they originate from somewhere. On druchii.net it was the second shade death star list, and the first to use a magic premise as the first was melee heavy and relied on MR and the ring.

Next time don't just assume stuff.

Lord Dan
09-02-2009, 19:33
The list this one was based off was posted in November, of course with the use of the shade death star growing you've seen more lists 'like this' but that doesn't change the fact that they originate from somewhere. On druchii.net it was the second shade death star list, and the first to use a magic premise as the first was melee heavy and relied on MR and the ring.

Next time don't just assume stuff.

Are you talking to me? If you are I don't think I understand your point.

Aglemar
09-02-2009, 19:47
That what you see around now is pointless when you don't consider when the list was made.

Aunshiva
09-02-2009, 20:56
Similiar thread title I know :)

And now, my counter to this beast...THE IMMOVABLE OBJECT!
(1279 points)
Dreadlord
Crimson Death
Potion of Strength
Armor of Eternal Servitude
3+ armor save
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
(5 attacks, S9)

Master
Battle Standard Bearer
Hydra banner (+1 attack for everyone)
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
Halberd
3+ armor save
(4 attacks, S5)

Master
Pearl of Infinite Bleakness (immune to Psycology)
Soul Render
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
3+ armor
(4 attacks, S6)

Master
Enchanted Shield
Pendant of Khaeleth
Hand Weapon
Pair of Repeater Hand Bows
2+/1+ armor save (built to take challenges)
(4 attacks, S4)

Black Guard x 20
Tower master, Whip of Agony (4 attacks, S5 armor piercing)
Standard Bearer, Always Strikes First Banner
Musician

Assassin
+D3 attacks
Killing Blow
Extra Hand Weapon
Repeater Hand Bow

Assuming 7 wide we have a static combat res of 4 (banner, Army banner, 2 ranks).

Front rank contains:
5 attacks, WS7 Str9 (lord)
4 attacks, WS6 Str5 (BSB)
4 attacks, WS6 Str6 (Master)
5 attacks, WS6 Str4 (Master)
6-8 attacks, WS9 Str4 killing Blow (assassin)
4 attacks, WS5 Str5 armor piercing (Tower Master)
3 attacks, WS5 Str4 (rank and file)

31-33 attacks all together!
18 S3 Armor peircing Stand and Shoot attacks before combat (hitting on 3's)

Assuming for the excersize that the Blood Knights will get the charge and the Black Guard will strike first.

Anyone want to lay bets on what happens before we Math Hammer it?

Does anyone else have an idea on how to stop the Blood knight unit of DOOM?

How does the lord have a 3+ save? All I see on him is heavy armor. If he has an SDC, that brings him to 4, a shield wouldnt allow him to use his Crimson Death. As mentioned, he can only have a s6 with that sword, the potion doesnt work. Why does he have repeater hand bows? For a stand and shoot? Certainly it doesn't give +1a like you seem to think it does, as A) they arent pistols, and even if they were, you wouldnt get to stack the S6 with them.

It appears that you make this mistake alot. Halberds are 2h weapons, so you cant combine them with mundane HW for a bonus. Or you just overestimate the base attacks of DE heroes.

All in all, yeah, this sounds cute. If any of it were legal.

Lord Dan
09-02-2009, 21:16
That what you see around now is pointless when you don't consider when the list was made.

Exactly? I get your point, but I don't see how that was relevant to my comment.

Aunshiva
09-02-2009, 22:05
Oh yeah, and unless you are fighting WoC or another army with a 7 wide frontage, having a 7 wide frontage on your cav is pointless. You wont be able to get all 7 models in btb.

Laughingmonk
10-02-2009, 08:48
I'd try out 96 outriders, divided up into different units as the battle allows, just for fun against many of these units. I may not win, but it would be fun to shoot 288 shots in the first shooting phase. Anyone wanna run the math?

D.E.E. Tom
10-02-2009, 09:03
Would get owned...

Any and all Blood knights can issue a challenge. So they just challenge, lose a guy, raise a guy next turn. They've got 3 combat res, so it's not like their going to lose horribly no matter what.


Wow who told you this nonsense? Blood Knights can accept challenges but only if no characters or Kastellan are available. They in fact cannot issue challenges on their own volition.

Still this unit would cost me a lot of charge diversion, but it is possible and as the unit of BK's only needs to be flank charged by something strong and maybe in the rear by something a lot stronger (than the flankers) and it will begin to crumble

ghettob
16-02-2009, 02:47
Oh and as an aside, this was run at the Fantasy 'Ard Boyz last year. No one killed it, but someone did manage to lead them off into the woods and pull enough of a win to keep him out of the finals.

God damn i wish i I could have played him with my teclis list :(

Axis
16-02-2009, 03:59
...

Exactly. And since any of them can challenge, they can even do it in a flank or rear attack.

@solvay; options that may not work but are fun as hell are always good!

I take your point about challenges, its a good one. One minor point is that bloodknights can't issue, they can only except. So only the characters and the kastellan can issue. I'm not sure how badly that effects it.

sniperjolly
16-02-2009, 06:50
WAltar lector w/sheild of gorgon, VHS, sword of sigsmund and 18 naked warrior preists, surrounding the unit, all casting soulfire 24/7, 19 times a turn, no regen, no armour, d6 str 5 hits, plus the regular attacks and the AL tarpits the vamps into oblivion. of course there is that whole "hero slot" thing, but thats not the point.

winkypinky
16-02-2009, 16:18
I find it slightly amusing that all these powerfull things would absolutely crumble vs. Dogs of war.

200 duelists w/ pistols (in 5 man units)
+ 8 lvl's of magic and the paymaster.

I just have to take that to a tournament some day.

sniperjolly
17-02-2009, 02:21
Terror! With ld 8 max, you would see 1/3-1/2 of your army dissapear in a wave of panic and terror. five five-man units come within range of a terror causer, two of them fail, moving through seven 5 man units each, 6 of which fail their panic tests, continueing untill your army has dissapeared, with succesfully rallied toops being routed by newly fleeing troops. the army would fail. Unless all of your wizards manage to cast garudian light the entire game.

ZigZagMan
17-02-2009, 04:05
Any Single stubborn Character with a good defense and a bsb behind him could sit on that unit all day by issueing a challenge each turn

Dungeon_Lawyer
17-02-2009, 09:30
'Ignoring' it is not as easy as some people would have you believe. It's denying you 2000 points. It only has to kill a couple hundred to squeeze an edge in victory points. If it catches an expensive unit, you're hosed.

Im from the school of thought that is more apt to eschew trying to match it deathstar for deathstar (although a chalax [sic] led temple guard unit with tooled up slann-with a EOTG nearby would be my option in that regard) and rather go for the harass it, goade it , bait it way to defeat it. In that vein I put forth a BOC army led by Khazrak the one eye: max out on units with the ambush rule and wait till turn 6 to sound the horn using Kazraks special rules--draw at worst, minor victory for you at best .

And terribly cheesy unfun game- The dude who brought that to ard'boyz should have been tied up and forced to watch while each model in that unit was fastballed into a wall, or dropkicked from the edge of a gaming table, or bootstomped with a doc martin. Just saying.....:wtf:

tricker53
17-02-2009, 09:34
how bout a KoS lv 4, the masque, BSB herald Lv 1 with -2Ld banner, and 1 more Lv1 herald. they try their hardest to cast stupidity, then hopefully the KoS can phantasmagoria and the masque and herald can hit Ld and watch the BKs slowly move forward pointlessly for the whole game. then if you get bored, charge rear with the KoS and challenge. also maybe attempt some pavane on the characters.

i reckon a daemon prince with mark of tzeentch, master of sorcery (lore of fire), many armed monstrosity could perhaps hurt them a bit as well with flaming sword of rhuin, if he managed to get it off (which he should be able to with bluescribes and some 10-man or 30-man horror units around), and have bluescribes putting bears anger on the prince too. . . why not. (i think he can)

Nerhesi
17-02-2009, 14:41
Herald of Tzeentch, master of sorcery: beasts
Herald of Tzeentch, master of sorcery: beasts
Herald of Tzeentch, master of sorcery: beasts
- that unit is going nowhere.
(520 points)
36 horrors, standard of sorcery
36 horrors, standard of sorcery
36 horrors, standard of sorcery
26 horrors, standard of sorcery.

That unit will die



you only get 3 lore of beasts attempt per turn. All he has to do, at most, is dispel it 3 times. Assuming you cast it 3 times.

As for your missiles - Have you seen all the saves on the unit?

Harwammer
17-02-2009, 15:08
I find it slightly amusing that all these powerfull things would absolutely crumble vs. Dogs of war.

200 duelists w/ pistols (in 5 man units)
+ 8 lvl's of magic and the paymaster.

I just have to take that to a tournament some day.

Duelists are 8 men minimum each :evilgrin:

Spirit
17-02-2009, 22:41
Would get owned...

Any and all Blood knights can issue a challenge. So they just challenge, lose a guy, raise a guy next turn. They've got 3 combat res, so it's not like their going to lose horribly no matter what.




Only the kastellan can issue a challenge, the are all simply not allowed to refuse a challenge.

Blood thirster wins.

tricker53
18-02-2009, 10:12
if the kastellan challenges, the bloodthirster has to accept or just get beaten up by the unit, then hes only killing 1 model and losing because of the static CR. then that 1 model that died gets resurrected. . . although perhaps not as the unit champion (havent got the VC army book on me). honestly a supporting unit of bloodletters in the front couldnt hurt the big bad flying boar, or perhaps the infamous juggernaut herald, also with S7 flaming (less A and WS but hatred and KB).

Shmee
19-02-2009, 15:27
If a bloodthirster gets a flank charge on the blood knights, then he only needs to score 4 CR per round to beat the blood knights (2 banner, outnumber, win on draw with musician).
With 7 re-rollable s7 attacks, he should be able to score at least 4 wounds per round. (and i don't care about been challenged, since all i want is to win the combat round not kill every last blood knight)
Although that probably isn't gonna be enough to destroy the unit, but at least it means, i can tie up at 2000 point unit with a 500 point beast, and go kill his other units and take some table quarters to win.

PxDn Ninja
11-03-2009, 15:28
Would get owned...

Any and all Blood knights can issue a challenge.

That isn't right. Any Blood Knight and ACCEPT a challenge, but only the champion can issue a challenge.

Red_Duke
11-03-2009, 17:01
Very true on the Blood Knights. Not only that but you can only issue a challenge if you are in contact with an enemy unit, so if theres no character on the end of the unit, then no challenges. Plus of course he could always just charge you in the rear instead for that extra point of static CR. Do remember that Blood knights are FRENZIED, meaning that its not like its that difficult to get a flank charge with if you know what you're doing. Furies bait, Blood Knights kill and HAVE to overrun, Bloodthirster then turns the unit into sushi from behind with his S7 flaming.

The other thing people don't seem to get is that A daemon player still has 1500pts worth of flesh hounds, flamers, horrible jugger heralds in units of bloodletters, and other assorted nastiness.

Personally i see the whole 'all eggs in one basket' to be both silly in terms of what it can actually do, plus it leads to a crap game. It also generally doesnt look that good on your actual ability of course, as a gibbering monkey could play a 'deathstar' army if you gave it the right number of dice to roll ;) About as much skill there as a Vamp Bunker, at which point you might as well give up playing warhammer and do something more interesting like sitting in a corner facing a wall watching some particularly exciting paint dry...

W0lf
11-03-2009, 22:31
Btw you realise ard boys is 3500?

So 1 bloodthirster can do it. 2 will do it.

Lord Dan
12-03-2009, 00:44
This thread didn't need to be revived.

Neferazo
10-04-2009, 16:31
Loads, loads, loads of artillery and unbreakable Iron Breakers ;)

Chicago Slim
11-04-2009, 18:36
14 inch normal movement + 8 inch from Van Hels gives them 22". A Blood thirster has a fly of 20. So if he stops within 22 inches he gets charged. If he stops outside, he himself cannot charge.

I absolutely LOVE how VC pundits regularly assume that Van Hels will get cast every time it's relevant-- yes, I recognize that Manfred brings a lot of magic power to the table, and that Van Hels can be cast multiple times-- but, seriously, I've never seen a calculation like the one above even acknowledge that it's possible to simply stop Van Hels from being cast... :P

W0lf
11-04-2009, 18:50
Why wont this thread die?

Thats twice its been re-raised after a month of no posts...

Its like invoc-spam.

Jack of Blades
11-04-2009, 19:19
Any and all Blood knights can issue a challenge. So they just challenge, lose a guy, raise a guy next turn. They've got 3 combat res, so it's not like their going to lose horribly no matter what.

Blood Knights can only accept challenges, only Champions can issue and accept them. Also, are Mannfred and the BSB deployed with the Blood Knights? that would be illegal, as they are on flying mounts which cannot join other units.

SilentStalker
12-04-2009, 03:32
First use Teclis, in a separate unit (like pheonix guard), to soften up the unit with some spirit of the forge on the unit and rule of burning iron on the lord/bsb (forcing him to waste dice getting wounds back. Then have Tyrion in a huge unit of white lions with a BSB +d6 CR, caradryan, and standard of balance (making you lose your frenzy one in BTB contact. Line Tyrion up with the vamp BSB to take him out, if anyone challenges that is not the vamp BSB, accept with champ (or caradryan if the challenger is manfred) kill BSB in one or 2 rounds and start crumblin away the unit with +d6 CR.
Points wise it could look something like this:
Tyrion - 400
BSB mounted, dragon armor, lance, shield, battle banner - 218
Caradryan - 175
24 White Lions with FC, standard of balance - 435
Add Teclis on the side in another bunker -475
Total it up and we have 1703
Use an eagle to bait the deathstar into the lions and just pound them into the dirt.
Oh and just for fun, use the Teclis scroll on invocation to try and get lucky =P

Always wanted to try using the High Elf twins... =D