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Memphrite
20-01-2009, 08:45
Hallo to all

Again some question regarding our beloved DE Hydra :):mad:

Shouting with magic weapons (with target selection) on Hydra.

This question come up during a game with Wood Elf’s against DE. The WE player had an magic bow or arrow with was able to select any model in unit’s which he can see. This means he can pick characters in units (they dont get any lock out sir rule) if he can see them (which means if he can see the unit).
So the WE player can bypass the special rule which say, you cannot shot at characters, unit champions or other special models in the unit (which are different to the rank and file troops) in units directly. In addition he also bypass the “look out sir rule”

The Hydra forms with their handlers a skirmishing unit.

Now the question, can he aim at the “Hydra skirmish unit” and pick out the handlers to shot at them directly. Bypassing the “you never can hit the handlers by missile fire rule” Here we agree that this is possible as the special weapon rule over write the general rule.

But then the DE player argumenting that if he hide the handlers models behind the Hydra model, so that the WE character with the bow can not see them anymore (no line of sight), he cannot aim at them anymore.

I think it is not right, as the Hydra and the handlers from a unit and you can shot at any or different model in the unit.

Otherwise I could put a character e.g. a mage in unit of skirmishers and form of them a wall of models to block the line of sight on the mage. So you cannot shot at the mage. I think you can select any special model, character in a ranked or skirmishing unit e.g. selecting an assassin (not hide anymore) part of a shade unite even when there is a shade model in the line of sight between the WE character and the assassin.

As other armies have some similar rules e.g. dwarf’s and you have also some spells (metal magic) which are able to select models in units.


Hydra and Handlers in close combat:

The rules of the Hydra says, it is not possible to aim at the handlers as long as you can hit the Hydra.
In the following case I only look at normal charges when there is enough movement to reach the unit.
The Hydra has the standard 50mm Monster base.

1. If you charge or being charged you must always centred your units (is this right?).
So if a Hydra charge a normal 5 models wide 20mm base infantry unit, the Hydra must be centred, which means the center of the 50mm Hydra base must be parallel to the center of the 20mm base of the model in the middle of the front rank. (normally the standard bearer)
Then the handlers are placed on the flanks of the Hydra base.
Is this correct?

If yes, it is logical that the Hydra base can only be touched by three 20mm Infantry bases.
3* 20mm = 60mm and Hydra base 50mm

So the handlers can be hit by the models on the border, frige or edge (which word is right in this context?) of the formation?

I ask it because in most cases it is much better to attack the handlers than the HYDRA. Esp. When you strike first. And 6 additions armour breaking attacks can also make some pain.


Thanks!

Necromancy Black
20-01-2009, 09:37
1) Yes, they are a single unit, so if the WE player can see a single model in the unit they can shoot at the unit and hit any model in it. Note that the rules for monsters and handlers state that the rules for shooting at them vary, so any rules in the DE book would override them.

2) When you charge you must bring the most number of models into base contact with both sides. This will nearly always result in the Hydra charging near the centre of the unit, meaning once the handlers rank up there may be a model that can only target them.
In these cases yes, they can target the handlers and kill them.

nosferatu1001
20-01-2009, 09:58
1) Models in a skirmishing unit do not block line of sight to each other, remember in WHFB the bases only count for blocking line of site within a unit, not the actual models - this is why ranked units only count the front rank for LOS. SO hiding the handlers wouldnt help!

2) Assuming you have sufficent charge range you must always wheel to get as many models in contact as possible; you do not centre your models - i f you are fighting 25mm infantry you would have 4 models able to attack the hydra, lining up square opposite the 2 models and having 1 model each side able to attack through corners. THis means that, if you line up the handlers each side you would only have 1 model able to attack the handlers.

For a 20mm unit you would again have 4 models able to hit the hydra: 2 lined up covering the first 40mm of the hydras base, then one on each side with one on the corner and one covering the last 10mm of base. Again with a 5 wide unit that leaves only 1 to attack the handler.

DeathlessDraich
20-01-2009, 10:28
The WE player had an magic bow or arrow with was able to select any model in unit’s which he can see.
if he can see them (which means if he can see the unit).
pick out the handlers to shot at them directly.

Yes if the WE character has LOS

But
This is unlikely as the DE player can usually place the Hydra in between the WE shooter and the handlers.

Since the Hydra is a Large target it will block LOS

- an Alter Noble with Pageant or Hunters Talon should be able to achieve this



Hydra and Handlers in close combat:

1. If you charge or being charged you must always centred your units (is this right?).

No, just maximise model during free alignment.
For skirmishers - reachable visible model (Hydra) is in contact first.


the 50mm Hydra base must be parallel to the center of the 20mm base of the model in the middle of the front rank. (normally the standard bearer)
Then the handlers are placed on the flanks of the Hydra base.
Is this correct?

If yes, it is logical that the Hydra base can only be touched by three 20mm Infantry bases.
3* 20mm = 60mm and Hydra base 50mm

So the handlers can be hit by the models on the border, frige or edge (which word is right in this context?) of the formation?

I ask it because in most cases it is much better to attack the handlers than the HYDRA. Esp. When you strike first. And 6 additions armour breaking attacks can also make some pain.


Whether the Hydra unit forms up like skirmishers is actually quite debatable since - Monster and handlers rules state that "the handlers are completely ignored, when charging or being charged"

However most DE players will willingly rank them up as a skirmishing unit.

1) If charged by or charging a 20mm ranked up unit - the handlers wont be touched.

2) If charged by or charging a skirmisher the handlers could be attacked - depends on how they rank up

Atrahasis
20-01-2009, 10:47
Monster and handlers rules state that "the handlers are completely ignored, when charging or being charged"

However most DE players will willingly rank them up as a skirmishing unit.And well they should, since the M&H rules explicitly state to form the monster and handlers up like a skirmishing unit.


1) If charged by or charging a 20mm ranked up unit - the handlers wont be touched.True (assuming the hydra is engaged to the front) - though a unit with 40mm, 25mm or cavalry bases will have one model fighting only handlers.

Units on 50mm bases will only fight the hydra.

Characters on odd sized bases complicate matters.


2) If charged by or charging a skirmisher the handlers could be attacked - depends on how they rank upSkirmishers in no way change the way the unit maximises, so no, it doesn't depend how they rank up.

Gazak Blacktoof
20-01-2009, 10:47
Yes if the WE character has LOS

But
This is unlikely as the DE player can usually place the Hydra in between the WE shooter and the handlers.

Since the Hydra is a Large target it will block LOS

- an Alter Noble with Pageant or Hunters Talon should be able to achieve this

This is how I would read it as well. Normally you can hit all models in a unit even those obscurred by intervening models in the same unit. Once you being targeting individual elements of a unit you will need LOS to them.

I don't have a Wood Elf book but the answer may be covered there.

Neckutter
20-01-2009, 10:51
i agree that when you read the WE item, you need LOS for him to shoot the handlers, because it says he can hit any model he sees. when the handlers are behind the large target of the hydra, it makes sense they would be hidden. i however, dont have my brb on me. :(

Kalandros
20-01-2009, 10:52
1) The Wood Elf has to have Line of Sight to the models he wishes to single out.

If a unit of 25 warriors with 1 character is shot at and the character cannot be seen - the character cannot be singled out.
So yes, if you hide the Beastmasters behind the Hydra, they cannot be singled out by spells or shooting - you NEED line of sight to shoot them with 'sniper' attacks - The rules of Line of sight for skirmishers is that they do not block their unit's models line of sight for their shooting, not that the enemy can see every single model in the unit if it only sees 1! Plus the Hydra is a Large Target Monster, not a Skirmisher, it only MOVES as one.


2) The entire charge is resolved against the Hydra and only the Hydra, if you can only reach a beastmaster, the charge is failed, but the charge isn't blocked by beastmasters - as long as you are within reach of the Hydra, you can charge it - it is treated exactly like charging or being charged by a monster - 1 pivot, 1 free alignment wheel, THEN the beastmasters are added to maximize models in contact if they could reach the combat during a charge or added to the front like skirmishers being charged, when being charged, as they are 2 skirmisher models.

Neckutter
20-01-2009, 11:00
the hydra isnt a skirmisher is it? i thought it only moved like a skirmisher during the movement phase?

DeathlessDraich
20-01-2009, 12:31
Skirmishers in no way change the way the unit maximises, so no, it doesn't depend how they rank up.

Yes, it does matter - the 2 factors you have forgotten are
1) number and size of charged skirmisher models when the Hydra charges
2) if the skirmisher unit charges the Hydra - only models with reach will be in btb

EldarBishop
20-01-2009, 12:32
1. The WE would need actual LOS to the model (s)he is trying to "snipe" (the large target can block LOS)

2. You move to engage as many enemy models as possible when you charge. As such the number of models which can attack the handlers varies depending on how you rank them up. Generally speaking, (in most cirsumstances) it should usually be a single handler, at most, which can be attacked...

Atrahasis
20-01-2009, 14:04
1) number and size of charged skirmisher models when the Hydra charges

Since they rank up in the same way as normal infantry, the same rules apply as I described - 20mm and 50mm bases will not fight handlers, the rest can if they have enough models.


2) if the skirmisher unit charges the Hydra - only models with reach will be in btbAgain, this is no different to a narrow ranked unit.