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VVar
20-01-2009, 17:35
Threw a list together this morning after really, really wanting to try out the BSB+Pendant of Khaeleth build. It utilizes fast characters, and absolutely no magic! The design is to be an all comers list...Here goes:

2250 Pts - Dark Elves Army

1 Dreadlord @ 267 Pts
General; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield
Armour of Eternal Servitude
Heartseeker
Potion of Strength
1 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts

-Easy role here; dreadlord takes care of monstrous creatures, tough characters, and other hard to take down items. First round of combat he will have strength 7, and successive rounds he will continue to have reliable wound output due to rerolling both hits and wounds (heartseeker. People often expect my general to have PoK, and as such ignore him. Also, I use dark steed instead of Cold One for two reasons; One, it's faster. Two, I don't ruin a turn by rolling stupid.


1 Master @ 177 Pts
Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard
Pendant of Khaeleth
Sword of Might
1 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts

-This is becoming one of the more popular BSB builds for DE; he has a 2+ mundane save and the reverse ward, so is quite hard to kill. He can tie up a monstrous creature of almost any sort and not die. Sword of Might is to allow him a slight ability to wound (strength 5) and also the fact that it's a magical weapon helps heaps versus ethereal (wraiths etc).

Here's the math behind the concept:
Take for example something you would REALLY want to tie up....Bloodthirster in this case. Common kit is armor of khorne (3+ save), immortal fury (reroll misses), and dark insanity (2d6+2 attacks).

Average 9 attacks (2d6+2)
8 hits (including the rerolls)
7 wounds
4.62 get through mundane armor (5+ save)
3.83 save (83%, PoK only failing on 6's)
.76 wounds/turn

So on average it should take two and a half turns for him to die. In addition, if he ever does a wound and does not take one in return, he would win combat (bsb negates the outnumber). In all I think he will do well! His chances of surviving against lesser monsters are drastically higher. The only thing I might change with him is exchanging the sword of might for an enchanted shield, for a +1 save. Obviously, if he were to take a wound from a bloodthirster he would be auto broken unless he also did a wound, but Bloodthirster is quite the exceptional case, normally he would be shooting for hydras, stegs, etc etc.

1 Master @ 109 Pts
Great Weapon
Armour of Darkness

-This master sits in the Black Guard unit and just whacks away. Goal is to have him take challenges so that my RoH champion doesn't die! +1 save and 6 strength is decent enough to at least hurt anything, add ASF and Hatred; should be a very good duelist for a turn or two.

1 Sorceress @ 150 Pts
Magic Level 1
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

-Scroll caddy.

14 Black Guard @ 290 Pts
Halberd; Heavy Armour; Standard; Musician
Standard of Hag Graef
1 Tower Master
Halberd; Heavy Armour
Ring of Hotek

-Generic Black Guard unit. Ring of Hotek is the center of this army, so it's safest in the unit most people entirely avoid. Not much so say here, always does it's job spectacularly.


4 Cold One Knights @ 210 Pts
Lance; Heavy Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
Standard of Slaughter
1 Dread Knight @ [16] Pts
Heavy Armour; Shield
5 Cold One @ [0] Pts

-Simple unit of knights. Not too many points to cry about if it gets popped by a metal spell, but still hits pretty damn hard and generates a good amount of CR (D3 CR on the charge, banner, wounds, and sometimes outnumber).

5 Dark Riders @ 117 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician
5 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts

5 Dark Riders @ 117 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician
5 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts

5 Dark Riders @ 117 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician
5 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts

5 Dark Riders @ 117 Pts
Spear; Rptr Crossbow; Light Armour; Musician
5 Dark Steed @ [0] Pts

-I love Dark Riders, always have. Basic setup here, they flank/assist/kill warmachines/plink away/character hunt. Love 'em.

1 War Hydra @ 175 Pts
2 Beastmaster @ [0] Pts
Beastmaster's Scourge

-Monstrous creature duty. Stays within 12" RoH to stay safe from powerful fire spells etc.

2 Reaper Bolt Thrower @ 200 Pts
4 Crew @ [0] Pts
Light Armour

-Didn't want too many complaints about double hydra, so 2x bolt throwers it is. Can soften up hard targets and/or throw out the 6 bolts at soft/low armor targets.

5 Shades @ 90 Pts
Great Weapon; Rptr Crossbow

-March blocking, counter charge, harassment, and infiltrate denial.

5 Harpies @ 55 Pts

5 Harpies @ 55 Pts

-Same as shades, but also fantastic war machine hunters! Fly helps a great deal, and being skirmishers they can also screen quite well. I usually start them in front of my black guard to provide some shooting protection first turn, but in the case of low shooting they immediately make a beeline for the rear of opponents forces.



Casting Pool: 3
Dispel Pool: 3
Models in Army: 68

Total Army Cost: 2246


I would love any critique, especially from a tournament perspective. Thanks!

==Me==
20-01-2009, 18:11
I'd say that looks quite good, especially if they run the way you want them to.

I'm not convinced by the Heartseeker though, I'd prefer a lance or Caledor's Bane if he goes off to hunt monsters. Or just downgrade to a Master, throw him in with the COKs, and use leftover points for Shades or Harpies.

VVar
20-01-2009, 18:50
I'd say that looks quite good, especially if they run the way you want them to.

I'm not convinced by the Heartseeker though, I'd prefer a lance or Caledor's Bane if he goes off to hunt monsters. Or just downgrade to a Master, throw him in with the COKs, and use leftover points for Shades or Harpies.

I was considering deathpiercer, just because killing blow can still be nasty in combats after the charge.

Dooks Dizzo
20-01-2009, 19:21
I ran the 'mostly' unkillable BSB in my last tourny and he was awesome. BSB+warbanner+outnumber killed 2 dragons.

Here's an excerpt from a battle report from my last opponent:


The Sturbon BSB, with 0+ Save and the reverse ward save weathered 7 squigs attacking him for 4 turns (8 rounds of combat, 14 str 5 attacks each round) with only taking one wound. . . . I want one.

It is an excellent build againt dragons, greater daemons and any super killy single model.

Dooks Dizzo
20-01-2009, 19:28
Oh yeah, on a cold one you can get down to a 0+ save. Saving on a 3+ vs s6 is awesome.

Mannfred
21-01-2009, 13:04
Very gud character builds...but i'm more a fan of cold ones....due to there awesome models and str4....even though theres so many more downfalls....less movement, stupidity....

Battle Standard seems do able...problem...when u come up against an empire army...with no monsters and big things but just big blocks of infantry that'll crush ur characters with sheer static combat res.....it's not pretty....like 3 ranks, outnumber nd their 4up.....i'm just talking from bad bad memories....same as like vampire counts or tomb kings...you have nothing to really stop them from replenishing models and + u have no like unit crushing units...like u got cold one knights but at the end of the day.....they're too fragile like a round of shooting from handguns or crossbows....str4 - t3 i know it's a 3+ save but u just need to make alot of them and always 1 or 2 die...and then it's all over for ur unit of 5....black guard same thing....too easy to die from shooting....

yeah u can shield with ur harpies but really like a simple d6 str4 will take them out of the game...like u can't expect to silence all ur opponents spells...

Hydra can be cannon ball by dwarfs or empire, lightning by skaven......like u really relying on ur 5 shades to kill off enemy gun lines...

Like if all works which is wat we always hope then it's quite flawless...but i saying that ur relying really heavily for things to work....

Maybe something like a cauldron could help out - like realy turn those Dark Riders into game winners 10 str4 attacks + 10 str3 attacks + flank vs standard + outnumber + wateva is still living usually 2A from a champ...

VVar
22-01-2009, 19:11
Very gud character builds...but i'm more a fan of cold ones....due to there awesome models and str4....even though theres so many more downfalls....less movement, stupidity....

Battle Standard seems do able...problem...when u come up against an empire army...with no monsters and big things but just big blocks of infantry that'll crush ur characters with sheer static combat res.....it's not pretty....like 3 ranks, outnumber nd their 4up.....i'm just talking from bad bad memories....same as like vampire counts or tomb kings...you have nothing to really stop them from replenishing models and + u have no like unit crushing units...like u got cold one knights but at the end of the day.....they're too fragile like a round of shooting from handguns or crossbows....str4 - t3 i know it's a 3+ save but u just need to make alot of them and always 1 or 2 die...and then it's all over for ur unit of 5....black guard same thing....too easy to die from shooting....

yeah u can shield with ur harpies but really like a simple d6 str4 will take them out of the game...like u can't expect to silence all ur opponents spells...

Hydra can be cannon ball by dwarfs or empire, lightning by skaven......like u really relying on ur 5 shades to kill off enemy gun lines...

Like if all works which is wat we always hope then it's quite flawless...but i saying that ur relying really heavily for things to work....

Maybe something like a cauldron could help out - like realy turn those Dark Riders into game winners 10 str4 attacks + 10 str3 attacks + flank vs standard + outnumber + wateva is still living usually 2A from a champ...

Played against the new lizards last night. BSB stood up to a carnie+hero for 3 turns, so definitely worked out there.

@Mannfred-Your post is pretty incoherent, but I'll assume it's because of a language barrier and not bad grammar...as for your points, I'm not sure I agree with them.


I'm not relying on my 5 shades to kill gunlines...I'm relying on 2x5 harpies, 4x5 dark riders, 5 shades, and two heroes on dark steeds. A gunline would be my dream, he could shoot up the black guard and CoK all day, turn two all war machines should be tied up.

Don't forget hydras get 4+ regen against almost all cannonballs (excluding dwarven flaming ones obviously).

As for harpies dieing to magic missiles....I don't mind? 55 points is worth saving 2-4 black guard, not to mention if he's casting it on 1 dice the chances of it going off are usually 50/50, and on two dice there is still a very good chance of it being a miscast...don't underestimate the brokenness of RoH. Also don't forget I have 3 dispell dice and 2 scrolls. I can almost always use the scrolls for simple spells, considering the big spells have a phenomenal chance of miscasting.

I've never actually played against Tomb Kings, so I can't speak on that behalf, but I have played vampire counts many times, usually an extremely competitive IoN spam list with plenty of ghoul bunkers, 3-4 vamps (or 3+wight king) and occasionally the grave guard deathstar bunker. In the case of the IoN spam list, a unit or two of dark riders in the flank of a 10 man ghoul unit will win combat...and force him to spend valuable dice ressing it back up "to strength". Expendable harpies can fly straight in and throw 4-6 attacks against a ressing vamp with low or no armor save, and stand a good chance of popping it. Black guard unit with dreadlord and bsb inside can take a grave guard unit on headfirst and win...again forcing dice to be spent on bringing the unit back up to strength versus making it un-killable (I don't challenge, if he challenges with his unit champ mine accepts and gets 1-3 CR, while my lord and BSB whack wight king unit regen is gone...if no wight king they both target the vamp lord. Losing a few of my black guard at the cost of his strongest lord and/or a wight king is completely worth it. Usually against VC however I do take a cauldron, instead of one master+a couple points elsewhere. Killing blow against knights and grave guard is amazing).

While all this is going on, hydras can easily get into prime charging positions etc, or take the brunt of black knight charges. If he takes blood knights, it's time to rejoice. They are so incredibly easy to lead all over the board; using frenzied high point units like that does not work in competitive play very often.


Also, you need to reread the rules on Cauldron. It never grants attacks to mounts, so although giving an extra attack to dark riders is handy if you need to take out a vamp or a small bunker, it would be 10str4 and 5 str3. In most cases however I would prefer to give killing blow to hydra or black guard, or +1 attack to charging knights. In the beginning of the game, 5+ ward on black guard is also nice to dilute shooting and MM casualties a bit. Obviously no cauldron in this build, but after last night's game I think I will try to again implement it in my list, but I will be keeping the master as BSB.


Thanks for the replies, still up for further critique. I will post a revised list soon.

VVar
22-01-2009, 19:18
I ran the 'mostly' unkillable BSB in my last tourny and he was awesome. BSB+warbanner+outnumber killed 2 dragons.

Here's an excerpt from a battle report from my last opponent:



It is an excellent build againt dragons, greater daemons and any super killy single model.

Where did you put your warbanner? Taking it on the BSB would prevent him from taking PoK...unless I'm missing something terribly.

Mooglemen
23-01-2009, 07:35
Seems to me this list could benefit from the "Aggressive Scroll Caddy". Squeeze out 85pts and you could beef up your caddy into a lvl2 caddy on Dark Pegasus. That extra level makes all the difference (@ lvl 2 she can now cast both her spells reliably after you cast PoD) in that now she can drop a couple spells a turn and can actually get a few off after the opposing caddy had been neutralized by your speed. She flies, making her another march blocker, and her peggy can actually hurt WM crews if you see an opening to charge her in.
Of course, I'm not sure where to fiddle out 85 more pts.