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ExxonValdez
20-01-2009, 19:15
My Dreadlord

Dreadlord, Armour of Eternal Servatude, Pendent of Kaeleth,Crimson Death, Cold One, Sea Dragon Cloak, Lance Shield. 280 points

My question is should I take the Crimson Death or the Death Piercer or save 19 points and swap a hand weapon for a mundane Lance.

Notes...

Taking a shield is only good in the shooting phase unless I decide to use a hand weapon (not sure why I would but whatever) because the Crimson Death is a 2 Handed Weapon that confers +2 strength all the time.

I was considering taking the Death Piercer (same points cost) Its a Lance and gives me Killing Blow. The lance only gives me +2 strength on charges but the Killing Blow is all the time.

I'm not concerned about this guy dying. He has a 1+ save, a ward save I have to roll under the strength of the attack and Regeneration. I just need to kill things for combat res.

I am planning on sticking him with a unit of Cold Ones with the Cold Blood Banner to ensure he doesn't get stupid when I need him most.

W0lf
20-01-2009, 19:23
Id always go for crimson death. Should you not break a unit on chrage with cold one knights (lots of reasons why this might happen) then S6 all the time can be a life saver.

Draconian77
20-01-2009, 19:25
Really there is *no* point in putting the Armour of Eternal Servitude on him.
Everyone will assume he has the Pendant and allocate their attacks elsewhere, if you challenge then they will just feed him a champion.

I like the Deathpiercer which would leave you with 40pts... maybe the Potion of Strength?

If you get stuck use the potion and you have more strength than you had on the charge! KB will also give you a better chance against most characters. S7(or 9) can also be used to auto-smash chariot like objects. (War Altars mainly...)

You will be thoroughly disapointed in the Banner of Cold Blood, I'd replace it with a Warbanner.

W0lf
20-01-2009, 19:27
Yes those are some good pts, especially the cold blood one. Warbanner or Slaughter are both better.

Crimson death + Pendant is fine for a mounted lord. Hell i wouldt bother spending more pts on him, save them for elsewhere.

Draconian77
20-01-2009, 20:45
It also allows you to put the Armour of Eternal Servitude on your BsB if you take one.

Also whilst on the subject of DE magic items, try to get the Lifetaker into your lists(Even on a Sorceress). You'll be amazed at how useful it is.

robnixon
21-01-2009, 00:00
your not wrong about the life taker. always hits on 2s s4 repeater. excellant for just picking off ranks.

your lord sounds fine though, hell do some reet good damage

ExxonValdez
21-01-2009, 02:01
Lifetaker is equipted on a Level 2 Sorc that hangs out in a unit of repeaters

Lord Dan
21-01-2009, 04:25
I run into this dreadlord build more often than my wife. Seriously, can't anyone think of something new?

3Xhume
21-01-2009, 07:48
How is this Dan,

Dreadlord, dark steed, sea dragon cloak, Heavy Armor, shield, Pair of Repeater Handbows, Pendant of Khaeleth, Black Dragon Egg, Deathpiercer

Joins Dark Rider if there is minimum shooting power from across the field. Panic inducing lord with dragon breath and fighty model in the flank. He could also be a cruise missile (Mv 9) if needed (this tactic could also be used when deployed with Infantry model). The more important thing, no stupidity.

EndlessBug
21-01-2009, 07:58
I run into this dreadlord build more often than my wife. Seriously, can't anyone think of something new?

Executioners axe, blood armour, SDC

bung him in a unit of BG with ASF.

In my last game vs Ogres he did 8 wounds to the first unit that charged him, 6 to the next, needless to say he had a 1+ save from blood armour very quickly, let alone being strength 8/10 mostly. Sucks Vs Elves though.

Hydra blade, potion of strength, pendant

Eternal servitude, crimson death, half BS of units shooting at him item

There are MANY others, but none are so reliable as the OPs.

ExxonValdez
21-01-2009, 09:26
Thought I was on to something. The problem is so many possibly usefull Magic Weapons are relying on strength 4. Weapons that would have a hard time wounding anything. That is why we have about 4-5 weapons we can choose from.

Dreadlord, Caledors Bane, Pendant, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Dark Steed = 233

I'm a Chariot killer, I still have 35 points to spend on magic items. With the new Lizardman book coming out I am sure to see lots of Cold Ones.

Draconian77
21-01-2009, 09:50
Thats basically the truth of it, you want your characters to be able to deal with high T and good armour save foes because thats what your infantry should have the most difficulty with.

Assuming that is the case weapons that keep you as S4 just aren't useful unless they are cheap. For example I quite like the Chillblade, but the Hammer of Judgement from the Empire book is a little better(In my opinion)and half the price.

D3 extra attacks? In many cases a great weapon/lance will cause more damage than 3 extra attacks.

Re-roll to hits and to wounds? You already re-roll hits in the first round and once again, S6 will most liekly cause more wounds than S4 with re-rolls.

Some of the weapons just aren't well designed.

Havock
21-01-2009, 17:58
On foot, however, the whip of wutsit is a very good choice, better than crimson death imho.
One less strength, but you also gain armour piercing, and an extra attack. Sweet eh? Planning on running it on a ninja-noble with armour of darkness in a unit of shades with great weapons.

Lord Dan
21-01-2009, 19:03
See, this is what I'm talking about. I like the Dark Rider lord a lot, however I think he might have some unnecessary items.

Executioner lord is a close second.

Frankly
21-01-2009, 19:06
On foot, however, the whip of wutsit is a very good choice, better than crimson death imho.
One less strength, but you also gain armour piercing, and an extra attack. Sweet eh? Planning on running it on a ninja-noble with armour of darkness in a unit of shades with great weapons.

hmmm ... that's interesting.

Repsajanus
21-01-2009, 19:17
On foot, however, the whip of wutsit is a very good choice, better than crimson death imho.
One less strength, but you also gain armour piercing, and an extra attack. Sweet eh?

how does this build give him an extra attack? you can't combine it with an additional hand weapon cause it's a magic weapon.

theunwantedbeing
21-01-2009, 19:32
how does this build give him an extra attack? you can't combine it with an additional hand weapon cause it's a magic weapon.

Just one of the many many reasons dark elves are incredibly cheesy and overpowered....

Tool the guy up so you expect to win the fight and break the enemy immediately.
Setting an elf army up for losing fights is silly.

Stubborn? Only useful when your losing.
BsB re-roll break tests? Only useful when your losing.
LD10 general? Usually only useful when your losing.

A lance, a cold one, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak and a sheild is usaully plenty of stuff for him.
+4 combat res a lot of the time when he charges. (4 kills)
Give him something to aid the unit's around him.
Like the ring of hotek, or 3 nullstones.

Starting him in a unit of frenzied corsairs, then moving to a unit with the hydra banner backed by a couldren can give him 7 attacks.
A lot of points and the hydra banner isnt really worth it so 6 attacks..but 6 st6 attacks on the charge is pretty brutal.

You dont need a 2+ ward and regen if he's never hit.

Draconian77
21-01-2009, 23:43
I find that the Whip of Agony is very good on a Tower Master.
4 attacks, S5, armour piercing, re-roll hits. You get a little more usage out of the re-rolls when you have more attacks.

Lord Dan
22-01-2009, 00:09
how does this build give him an extra attack? you can't combine it with an additional hand weapon cause it's a magic weapon.

It specifies that you can. How's that for some good ol' Warmachine-esque rule bending?

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 00:41
I quite like the idea of an elite soldier killing an Chaos Lord with a whip...

Jericho
22-01-2009, 00:41
The dagger specifies that you can benefit from the 2 hand weapon bonus. The whip is a Beastmaster's Scourge with permanent S5 and armor piercing. It does not say that you may combine it with a mundane hand weapon for the +1A bonus. You would, however, get the extra armor save if given a shield on foot, since it counts as a hand weapon with bonus rules.

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 00:47
Actually, all the rulings that I have seen on it so far say that it does grant the additional attack.

Its not game breaking and I haven't seen anybody complain about it yet.

If in doubt I suppose you could post in the rules section.

Jericho
22-01-2009, 00:54
The rules forum won't help. Right now you can't combine a mundane hand weapon with a magic weapon for the +1A unless specifically noted in the magic item description. The Dagger of Hotek says it counts as an additional hand weapon, the Whip of Agony is merely a hand weapon with bonus rules. I don't care what anyone says, the rules do not grant you the +1A unless an errata comes out that says you do.

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 00:57
Ah ha...not trying to sound superior or anything but that sort off thinking doesn't prove anything.

I'm not getting into a debate here though.

The rules section is quite useful for getting the general concensus if nothing else.

Jericho
22-01-2009, 01:05
I'm not trying to start a rules debate, and I'm not trying to sound like a rules lawyer, but I don't think it's right to give people a false impression in a tactics thread either since this is the most likely place for people to get ideas and unleash them on the battlefield.

Sorry to hijack the discussion somewhat, but I don't think we should give people advice based on an extremely shaky rules interpretation. Hopefully we can get back to the discussion of other ideas :)

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 01:10
Well see, I thought it was quite clear, thats why I suggested it.

You are the first person to call this interpretation into question, I'm not saying your wrong per se, it's just I think the intent was clear enough and that's the sort of group I am a part off.

But again, lets not get into this here.

Just to reiterate:

Dreadlords should focus on high S, using weapons that grant S bonuses or using a any weapon+the Potion of Strength. One defensive item(Eternal/Pendant) is normally enough and anything else is just gravy.

Jericho
22-01-2009, 01:32
Agreed, something to boost their strength is the best way to make use of their high WS, Hatred and 4A base. Making your hits count is the important thing.

I usually try to stick to the RAI where it makes sense to do so, like Vampires being able to cast spells in armor even though the book technically doesn't say they can, but in some cases the RAW seems deliberate. The specific details of the Dagger of Hotek entry (and I guess Hellebron's rules would work for this too) are my strongest evidence that if they intended to make the Whip count as XHW they would have said so. Doesn't really matter too much in the end, like you said :)

ExxonValdez
22-01-2009, 01:43
Back on Track

Dreadlord, Caledors Bane, Strength Potion, Pendant, Heavy Armour, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Additional Hand Weapon, Dark Steed = 279

I want my lord to be killy. Hes tough enough I don't have to put him in a squad for protection. Its actually to my benefit if he is being shot at. I have a unit of 8 Cold Ones, the rest of my army are movement 5-6. He is my cruise missile. I am sending him directly at my enemies war machines and chariots and he could probably do significant damage to a Dragon with Caledor's Bane. I purposely put him on a Dark Steed as opposed to a Cold One so he doesn't get stupid. On a Pegasus chances are the mount would die before him and he cannot join other units. He also has a charge of 18 inches which is further than any chariot. He doesn't buff other units in any way other than improve their leadership to 10 but he can kick some ass quickly which is what I have built him for.

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 01:55
Now, this may just be my view on the matter, but what exactly is the point of Caledors Bane?

Aren't you paying +29 points for +1 S on the charge in *99% of circumstances seeing as how S7 will likely cripple/ignore an enemies armour save anyway? (I mean a Dragon loses his 3+ save which he would have lost anyway...Is this only really useful against Lizardman characters then?)

I know it makes wounding certain things easier and it takes a notch off armour saves but surely Killing Blow for less points will almost always be more attractive?

It does allow you to smash chariots without the Potion but surely you would break most chariots anyway as they wouldn't be getting past your armour and wards without impact hits?

*Imaginative figure.

ExxonValdez
22-01-2009, 02:22
You bring up a good point. I'm new but as I understand it Killing Blow only effects certain models. Anything bigger than a Knight is immune to it. Your point about the strength 7 being equal to Caledor's bane when it comes to negating a Dragons scaley save is correct.
I'm trying really hard to make a magic close combat weapon work but it seems that a mundane lance is the best value with a magic potion for a rainy day.

Norngahl
22-01-2009, 10:31
Personally, I play a Dreadlord with Pendant, Armor of Darkness and Souldrender in ASF Black Guard.

I share the opinion that a Dreadlord should add a high strengh bonus to a unit. With 4 Strengh 6 Attacks with -4 on the enemies armor saves, that should be enough to kill even knights easily.
At least, he is just about 215 Points, with 1+/2+ Save. Thatīs a pretty good deal!

I donīt like dreadlords on cold ones or on steeds with CoK. Sure, they are at a 1+ armor save, 2+ ward and 4+ regeneration, but they lack good strengh. Even with Lance and Potion of strengh i think they are quite a bad deal in contrast to the BG lord as mentioned above.

BG Lord in BG "count as" stubborn and ITP due to his mates, has ASF, high stengh all the way. I think putting the Lord in the BG is the best Option for him.

CoK work better at 5-6 with a cheap banner as banner of murder, for 227 points you get a devasting anti armor unit, even if they donīt break the unit they are awesome the next round as well. There is no need to upgrade them with a Lord, just because I think CoK are more fragile than BG.

I stay with the BG Lord, not overprotected but save, dishes out constant high strengh and anti armor pain and ASF, stubborn and ITP while his unit is alive. Best way for a dreadlord, IMO. I named him "inciting tank":D


Good point about Caledors Bane. I would never buy it, just because itīs too expensive for +1 strengh compared to a mundance lance. The only thing it might be useful for might be a master on dark pegasus for chariot hunting, but personally I think that there are better ways to handle chariots than rushing in with a 200points character.

The only way I might consider the dragon egg useful would be on a master on pegasus against goblins to cause panic. But there are better options as well.



greetings

W0lf
22-01-2009, 12:37
The WHOLE point of caledors bane is to watch a HE opponent whine and say you 'tailored' vs them ^^

Note; my group is strictly non-tailored but that dosnt mean you cant take anti-army items... just means they are useless against other armies lol.

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 14:51
Putting a Drealord in a unit of Black guard is always tempting but canny opponents might be able to ignore him all game.

Then again, it is a lot more durable if flank charged and its not subject to stupidity.

Its a pros/cons thing.

W0lf
22-01-2009, 14:57
I always prefer lords in ranked units as a CONCEPT.

However i feel in this case the dreadlord is infact best in black guard units.

Yes your opponent can ignore them all game only allowing them to charge some weak-ish unit; but if your playing your army right and mitigate his shooting early enough (V. easy with DE) he likely wont be winning with a large chunk of VPs untouched.

Plus flanked by 2 hydras its kinda hard to 'ignore' all of it.. and people shoot hydras over BG in my experience :P

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 15:37
Yes your opponent can ignore them all game only allowing them to charge some weak-ish unit; but if your playing your army right and mitigate his shooting early enough (V. easy with DE) he likely wont be winning with a large chunk of VPs untouched.

Not to get into theory hammer, but surely if he was playing his army right he would protect his shooting?

Plus flanked by 2 hydras its kinda hard to 'ignore' all of it.. and people shoot hydras over BG in my experience :P

Nah! Shoot the BG, they die whereas the Hydra is quite resilient against most shooting. They are both equally threatening!

Did you know? Shinigami love apples.

Frankly
22-01-2009, 16:05
I've been running a costly combo of hydra blade + potion of strength on my D.Lord and popping him in a unit of DR's.

I'm not totally happy with it ... although its pretty fun and combines well with hatred.

Anyone using a cauldron to add KB or extra attacks to their units? I'm wonder if its worth it as a support upgrade/unit/thingy. Seems a bit steep in points cost.

Mouldsta
22-01-2009, 21:20
I've been using a CoB, mainly because I like the model, and wouldn't overly recommend it. If you're going for an uber death star unit (e.g. 27 BG + lord + BsB + hero, with all the magical goodness they can carry) then it can be a good choice, especially if you know they'll get repeatedly flank charged. Similarly if you're using a cult of Khaine style list and have a lot of khainite units then one or two CoB's spread between them can be very useful for the stubborn effect.

However in most cases you're paying 200pts for a combat hero that will never see combat (you can't charge) that grants a bonus to a nearby unit. Not overly impressive.

I have found however that making the CoB death hag your general can be amusing, as suddenly all that magic resistance/ward save/ignoring most shooting starts to pay off. I started using a supreme sorc, a CoB death hag and a master on manticore, so opponents have to choose between going after the big flying scary monster, the source of all my magic (usually lv4 with black staff), or the general who's tucked behind my lines and generally can easily fend off light cav/warmachine hunters

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 21:22
I really don't like the Cauldren of Blood. I think the concept is sound but I think taking up a Hero slot and costing what it does makes it only suitable for large scale games or themed armies. If Executioners and Witch Elves were better then maybe we would see more of them.

W0lf
22-01-2009, 22:08
Yes likewise i dont really like the cauldren in-game. (great idea). 200 pts for a unit upgrade? id raher just get another unit tbh. Plus protecting it is a pain/liability.

As for 'protecting your shooting', theres playing right and theres facing an army with harpies, shades and DRs. ^^

Draconian77
22-01-2009, 22:58
You know, not all DE armies run Shade deathstars and flocks of Harpies...

But sometimes there are ways of stopping even these.

Besides, I frequently have my Harpies routed by Dwarf crewmen...

ReveredChaplainDrake
22-01-2009, 23:54
Why has nobody yet brought up a Dreadlord riding a Dragon? :confused: You can take your fancy Potion of Strength, Caledor's Bane, Lifetaker, Deathpiercer, or whatever, but IMHO, if you want a painful, choppy Dark Elf Lord, there is absolutely no substitute for a Black Dragon.

Lord Dan
23-01-2009, 00:57
You're absolutely right. Meanwhile, I'll spend the points you bought a dragon with on two units of 25 warriors.

Full command.

Draconian77
23-01-2009, 12:36
There are better ways to spend the points in many cases and I do love having 4 characters...

Dragons are very strange units, they will hide all game from some armies and crush others without fail. I prefer to play it safe.

Frankly
23-01-2009, 15:28
Because of DRs and harpies I think DE lists have the tools to support a dragon lord choice better than alot of any armybooks. These units can control the table pretty well.

hatred Dragons seem to be constant damage dealers.

I can't wait to try out a dragon in an armylist.

Thanks for the feed back on the CoB.

ReveredChaplainDrake
23-01-2009, 15:29
You're absolutely right. Meanwhile, I'll spend the points you bought a dragon with on two units of 25 warriors.

Full command.
And my Dragon will run circles around your foot blocks.

I get your point that Dragons are ridiculously expensive, but comparing Dragons to foot blocks isn't a very sound argument. (Face it, foot blocks are by and large one of the worst things you can invest points in.) If you really wanted to scare me, tell me about the three RBTs you invested in instead.

Frankly
23-01-2009, 15:33
...... I frequently have my Harpies routed by Dwarf crewmen...


.... bounce, is all I get when my harpies charge into Dwarf crewmen. Even DR's can come of second best if there's second round of combat.

AramilSairSianontel
23-01-2009, 15:37
For me, (and i play HE with Star dragon) the DE dragon is my only way to kill the dreadlord. I just have to fall on him with my prince on Star Dragon and allocate all attacks on the black dragon. He will probably lose and turn tail while the dreadlord remains untouched. Then overrun him.
The same charakter-and you know who i'm talking about the dreadlord with pendant of Khaeleth and the 1+ AS yielding crimson death is absolutely deadly in a unit of cold one knights. I can come at him and he declares a challenge...and lol..i just can't touch him.
So yes the dragon can be a great advantage as much as a great disadvantage many times.

Draconian77
23-01-2009, 16:13
So its a case of, "You didn't take a Dragon you cheesy git?"

Quite amusing.

Frankly
23-01-2009, 16:37
But dragons aren't cheezy, are they?

Draconian77
23-01-2009, 17:05
I would say that they are because some army books and some army builds just don't have counters to them.

Nitz
23-01-2009, 17:47
My general:

Dreadlord on dark steed. Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Armor of Eternal Servitude, Hydra Blade, Potion of Strength. [4+D3 Attacks, 2+/1+ Save, Regen]

I am trying to not make an obnoxious list, so no pendant for me. I love this set-up. He usually rolls with the COK's. I know the hydra blade has drawbacks in Str, but my experience is my guy does not spend a lot of time fighting big nastys. So, if i give him the PoS he can pop that for the one big combat he needs it. Otherwise, 5-7 rerollable attacks with S4 do a decent job, especially backed up by all those S6 hits from the COK's. Regen isn't perfect, but like I said, as a 6th Edition DE player, the pendant is a little too good for me to feel right using.

ReveredChaplainDrake
23-01-2009, 20:09
For me, (and i play HE with Star dragon) the DE dragon is my only way to kill the dreadlord. I just have to fall on him with my prince on Star Dragon and allocate all attacks on the black dragon. He will probably lose and turn tail while the dreadlord remains untouched. Then overrun him.
The same charakter-and you know who i'm talking about the dreadlord with pendant of Khaeleth and the 1+ AS yielding crimson death is absolutely deadly in a unit of cold one knights. I can come at him and he declares a challenge...and lol..i just can't touch him.
So yes the dragon can be a great advantage as much as a great disadvantage many times.
Versus the Cold One Knights, you don't send the Star Dragon after the Dreadlord. That's just dumb, especially if you're expecting the PoK by default. Instead, you hit the Cold One unit he joined in the flank and munch them, reducing that wonderful Ld10 to a mediocre 5-6 in a jiffy before routing the unit (possibly with an effective Fear, if you can cut the unit down far enough) and overrunning. Lot of good the PoK does then. It's not even that hard to set this up, especially if they blow a Stupid check.

Frankly
23-01-2009, 21:14
My general:

Dreadlord on dark steed. Sea Dragon Cloak, Shield, Armor of Eternal Servitude, Hydra Blade, Potion of Strength. [4+D3 Attacks, 2+/1+ Save, Regen]


..... He usually rolls with the COK's.

Thats almost picture perfect of what I'm running. Accept I'm running him in a unit of DR's ofc.

str4 is a hit and miss afare I find, I think the hydra blade + potion of strength is good, but maybe alittle costly for its points cost, still its a potent combo for killing high toughness units.

AramilSairSianontel
25-01-2009, 18:18
Versus the Cold One Knights, you don't send the Star Dragon after the Dreadlord. That's just dumb, especially if you're expecting the PoK by default. Instead, you hit the Cold One unit he joined in the flank and munch them, reducing that wonderful Ld10 to a mediocre 5-6 in a jiffy before routing the unit (possibly with an effective Fear, if you can cut the unit down far enough) and overrunning. Lot of good the PoK does then. It's not even that hard to set this up, especially if they blow a Stupid check.

Yeah sure, but it was the first time i played vs DE with their new book and didn't know it at all...anyway....even if you hit them in the flank he still could had put him there:p:p

Lord Dan
25-01-2009, 22:53
And my Dragon will run circles around your foot blocks.

I get your point that Dragons are ridiculously expensive, but comparing Dragons to foot blocks isn't a very sound argument. (Face it, foot blocks are by and large one of the worst things you can invest points in.) If you really wanted to scare me, tell me about the three RBTs you invested in instead.

Likewise I don't think it's fair to compare 1 dragon against just two footblocks. The footblocks are there as part of a greater whole- for instance, maybe they go engage some unit so my bolt throwers can focus on your dragon instead? Maybe they transport my lord to challenge your dragon, rather than risk sending him in with a more expensive unit? Maybe those additional ranks win me the combat when you charge in with your dragon and botch your to-hit rolls?

I'm not saying a dragon isn't powerful, I'm saying it's a two trick pony. People know exactly what you'll be doing with it: dancing around and burning things or charging in for the kill.

I'd rather have the tactical flexibility provided by two units of warriors.

Treadhead_1st
26-01-2009, 00:05
Any ideas for a Lord on a Manticore?

I've heard a theory (and it's one I like) that since the Elveses are so squishy anyway, and have the potential to be very killy, you should ignore/take minimal defensive precautions, and tune the Lord up to carve through whatever he might face.

Now, this seems like it would work on a foot (in a unit for protection)/Cold One (mundane armour + mounted, thick skin) Lord, but since the Manticore means you don't get the bonuses to armour saves, and also the general is still hit 1/3 of the time, it seems you'll really need defensive gear.

I was thinking of: Sword of Might, Shield, Armour of Eternal Servitute + Pendant of Khaeleth. Combined with the Manticore this is 8 str5 attacks a turn, and he's very survivable (randomising hits, then 4+ armour, then reverse-Ward save, then Regenerate) - but not so great on the 'kill' front - he's only Str5 and a few attacks, so he's not exactly going to be carving through characters (and may struggle with RnF as well).

So, given that I'm unsure of the above build, what do you think would work instead (for reference, my army also contains 2 Hydras, 2 Lvl2's on Pegasus and a Lvl2 on a horse, so is quite Monster/Magic heavy)?

Lord Dan
26-01-2009, 00:47
Any ideas for a Lord on a Manticore?

Dreadlord
Manticore, Ring of Darkness, Crimson Death, HA, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak

420 points.

AramilSairSianontel
26-01-2009, 13:14
So its a case of, "You didn't take a Dragon you cheesy git?"

Quite amusing.

lol good one.:)

Neknoh
26-01-2009, 13:34
Not a dreadlord perhaps, but thinking of what could be made for a Master in a 1k mounted list (wielding dual units of Coldone Knights and either a Hydra or a unit of Shades supported by two units of five crossbowing dark riders with musicians).

First, I thought of going for footsloggers as well, placing him on a chariot, however, I then decided against it and chose the Dark Pegasus instead, I think he'll be slightly more useful when he isn't stupid and attempting to munch warmachines instead.

There are a few kitouts I've been thinking about trying

First would be the Black Dragon Egg allong with an Enchanted Shield, SDC, Heavy Armour and a Lance, this would leave him at 187 points, a 2+ armoursave (1+ against shooting), the abillity to gain T6 should he end up in a bad position, OR he can munch the egg to attempt a prevention of a charge by an enemy unit if the Coldone Knights botch their stupidity in the last minute.

Otherwise, if I want something hitting hard, I'd go for the Potion of Strength, strength 9 on the charge could be rather nasty. The rest of the gear would be the same

The Ring of Darknes with Shield, Lance, SDC and HA would also be a viable build for flying around relatively unscathed from shooting. Otherwise, either Blood Armour + Pendant, or perhaps one of the 25 point armours with Crimson Death/Heartpiercer could work.

But I just can't decide. The first one with the egg sounds more original to me, but it would also appear that the reason it is more original is because it is not as good as the others.

EndlessBug
26-01-2009, 14:23
the egg imo is pretty useless, they'll be shooting the pegasus down before the master dies anyway.

Master
Dark Pegasus
Armour of Darkness
Ring of Hotek
Halberd

might be a good one, bung him near your guys 1st turn, 2nd turn fly him near to a wizard and in range of enemy war machines, 1+ save should keep him safe from most things, cannons will likely kill the pegasus if they hit the model anyway. 5 STR 5 attacks on the charge makes a mess of most fast cav, skirmishers, war machine crews.

Neknoh
26-01-2009, 14:59
The ring will be going on a coldone, as said... or did I say that in this thread?

Treadhead_1st
26-01-2009, 20:56
Hmm, does the Ring of Darkness help a Monster-Mounted model out much? By my reading, only CC hits against the wielder (not his mount) are half WS, and shooting wise...I've no clue.

It says "wielder, or the unit he's joined" - does that include Monstrous Mounts? I'm thinking not, since you can randomly hit the rider, whereas you can't really if he's in an infantry block - and the mount is not a unit he's joined, and neither is the mount wielding the ring.

That's why I've not considered it before. Course, if I'm wrong, it does sound like quite a nice item!


On the note of equipment for monster Lords, what do people think about the Shield of Ghrond or the Blood Armour? Shield, it means you can knock the strength of any incoming attack down a peg - since you should get the charge versus Knights, the remainder (assuming human/Elf knights) will now only be Str2 in retaliation - barely enough to wound you and won't modify armour at all. Blood Armour, since the Lord already has good stats, and on a monster would have good mobility, would this be a good idea - you can pick on a ranked unit (something like Empire/Bretonnian foot blocks/Archers) and chop them down for some quick boost to the armour (the Mount helping to break the unit) and then go hunting tougher foes.

Now the same thoughts on weapons. I'm very tempted to take the Potion of Strength, as it seems to be a rather nice item to have if you end up in a challenge, faced with an enemy monster or have a nice shot at a chariot/knight unit. But what weapons would combine well? A Lance is cheap, grants STr9! but only works on the charge, a Sword of Might gives you a reliable boost to your strength, and can get you to Str8, but then there are other options like the Heartseeker (ok, you only top out at Str7 or 4 when not using potion, but you re-roll hits and wounds which should ensure any of those Str4/7 hits really go through - armour may be a problem when not using Potion) and the Sword of Ruin seems nasty on it's own (str4 may not wound terribly often, but denying saves will be handy against Knights and RnF) and jacking it up to Str7 to wound the toughest foes seems rather nice (but perhaps a waste of the Armour-denying ability of the higher strength)?

So, what do people think about these items that I rarely see used - the Shield of Ghrond, the Blood Armour, the Heartseeker and the Sword of Ruin - particularly in relation to Monster-Mounted Lords/Heroes?

Draconian77
26-01-2009, 21:09
I think that they are all poorly designed items with few genuine uses.

As a disclaimer: I just hate S4 heroes and lords as magic items which essentially keep you at S4 are often much worse than a standard lance or great weapon.

For example, the Shield of Ghrond is only really useful against S5 attacks. Against anything else the Enchanted Shield really is better bang for your buck.

The Blood Armour has one real use, the BA+Executioners Axe+ASF banner one trick pony. Even then there are risks associated with that and against T3 foes you have probably wasted a lot of points.

The Sword of Ruin is a nice item but at 50pts I feel we are getting ripped off.(Ok, silly wording but I'm just getting the idea across...) Chaos characters and DE characters pay the same even though its mcuh better in the hands of a Chaos character.

Heartseeker, we already have Hatred and most combats will end in one turn, re-roll to wounds is nice but if you don't get past your opponents armour then all those wounds are wasted.

In essence? Take a lance...

Treadhead_1st
26-01-2009, 21:53
Hehe, for some reason I was already expecting that sort of reply (I was figuring there was a reason these items aren't used).

I had forgotten about Hatred, it's true (I guess it's a hazard of only having the army book a few days) so I guess the Heartseeker isn't as good as I thought.

I know that Str4 doesn't really cut it (in fact, somewhat contrary to the following, it's the reason I won't take the Hydra Blade - if it were a flat +3A then I'd consider it, but the D3 combined with *only* str4 is too much of a risk IMO)- but do you think that having the Potion of Strength for emergencies means the Dark Elves can get away with a mediochre-strength Hero and a weapon that has some other sort of benefit (since it seems Str4 would be good against standard Rank and File troops, but you need the higher strength for armoured foes and characters - thus the potion could make for quite nice versatility).

Out of interest, why do you think the Sword of Ruin is so poor? Denying saves is surely a big advantage - even if capped at Str4 against RnF, yet you could use the Potion when fighting characters (or is it the fact this combo would cost 70 points, and a decent Ward Save/Regeneration/Combo thereof would neuter it almost entirely)?

Draconian77
26-01-2009, 22:02
Wouldn't the Sword of Ruin + Potion combo be 80pts?

I don't like it because it is too expensive.

On a 4A S5 character you hit more and wound easier which means that the ability to negate saves is much more powerful.

For example against T4 you would kill, on average, 1.8ish models.

On a 3A S4 character its a much less dangerous weapon and should cost less to take this into account.

Agains the same T4 enemy you would kill, again on average, 1 model.
(Taking hatred into account 1.33 models)

It's just a case of were you are clearly paying too much for what the weapon gives you. (Or races with more base S and/or A are paying too little, but thats unlikely.)

Treadhead_1st
27-01-2009, 04:57
How does this combo look?

Dreadlord: Hand Weapon, Dagger of Hotek, Armour of Darkness & Potion of Strength (on Manticore).
425
He only kills 2 WS4,T4 models a turn (2.22 to be exact), but against T3 he's quite brutal. ASF helps beat down rival High Elf/Banner-bearing/Corpse-cart-boosted units, and he gains an additional attack. Has fairly solid armour, and can still jack up to Str7 against characters/Knights, where that extra attack can really make a difference; plus has room for the Talisman of Protection if it turns out he needs a Ward Save.

Trouble I'm having is that I know the Lances (be it Death Piercer or Mundane) are probably the best options available, but I don't like the look on the models. The Crimson Death is the next best thing, but cannot be modified with the Potion of Strength, neither can the Whip of Agony. I guess the Soulrender might be an option (boost in strength, extra AP ability, works better when the Manticore gets killed)...then again maybe not.

Edit, whoops, forgot about armour in the maths.

Hotek combo only kills 1.975 models a turn at T3, or 1.481 at T4, assuming a 5+ save (flat Heavy Armour or Light Armour + Shield + 2-H weapon). Base Str4 isn't too great..but not liking a Lance, how can I get around that?

Lord Dan
27-01-2009, 05:01
You don't get +1 attack for an additional hand weapon if you're mounted. Then all you're getting from the dagger is ASF, however you should pretty much always be striking first anyway if you're on a manticore.

Just take a lance. The hydra blade+potion combo is a good one, but it's pricy.

Treadhead_1st
27-01-2009, 05:07
Where does it say you don't?

Is it purely because it says in the CCW box on p56, "fighting with two hand weapons (infantry)", so doesn't apply to mounted models? Does this mean that Cavalry don't get the +1Sv for HW+Shield then, since that's "(infantry)" too? Since it appears that way...dang, as it shoots my plan in the foot, and also means my regular opponents have been blagging extra armour saves on their Knights.

I'm still worried that Lances aren't the best option - if the Manticore gets taken out the lance is useless (since it's benefits specifically mention "mounted", just like AHW mentions "infantry"), plus I don't like the look. So, do you think the Soulrender is a good weapon to take (I know Greatweapons are usually a bad idea on mounted models, as you loose out on armour saves and they're not as potent as they are on foot) BUT...

It's the same cost as the Sword of Might, but has the additional benefit of AP rule for when not using the potion. With the potion, he goes up to Str8 which should deny all saves. And, if the mount gets shot from under him, his weapon becomes stronger. I guess the downside is that it doesn't take advantage of the lovely high Initiative that is part of the Dreadlord's cost, whereas with the Sword of Might he's still swinging first in latter rounds of combat (barring ASF).

Does it have potential (Soulrender, Armour of Darkness & Potion of Strength is quite cheap), or am I still missing the point. I know I'm being stubborn about a non-Lance lord (if I can find a nice model I might be able to convince myself otherwise, but for now I'm not keen on it), I just want to see if there is a potential combo out there.

Red
27-01-2009, 05:15
"infantry" means troops on foot. So no, mounted troops do not get the bonuses. :)

Lord Dan
27-01-2009, 05:52
If the manticore gets taken out and your character is running around by himself off on the left flank of your opponent's army, I'd say he's about useless no matter what weapon he has in his hand.

Draconian77
27-01-2009, 14:48
To be honest Treadhead_1st for all the cries of "broken" and "cheese" that are laid at a Druchii players feet there is an underlying reason why the same combos pop up again and again...lack of choice.

The weapons I use are pretty much limited to Crimson Death, Whip of Agony and the Lifetaker. For mundane weapons either lances(mounted) or great weapons(on foot+either good armour or regen, etc)