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darkace77450
20-01-2009, 21:08
It seems a great many people still think GW hasn't quite got the magic system right. Some people say magic heavy armies can be too dominant; some say it is an "all or nothing" system regarding magic, and some say you shouldn't be forced to carry a scroll-caddy just to have a chance against certain armies. So my question is, how would you fix it?

My answer is, and feel free to call me idiot if you must, the following:

- All spells are broken down into power levels of 1, 2, or 3 based on power of effect.

- A wizard can cast a number of spells in each of his own magic phases. The number of spells cast is determined by the power level of the spells cast, and cannot exceed his total level. So a level 3 wizard could cast three level 1 spells, a level 1 and level 2 spell, or a level 3 spell in each magic phase.

- Each lore of magic would consist of roughly 3 level 1 spells, 2 level 2 spells, and a level 3 spell.

- Each wizard will know all six spells from his spell list. This does not mean every wizard will be able to cast any spell, as a level 2 wizard would not be able to cast a level 3 spell under normal circumstances.

- A d6 is cast for every spell cast. If the result is a 1, then the spell fails to cast and no further spells may be cast by that wizard in that turn. If a 6 is rolled then the spell is cast with Irresistible Force and cannot be dispelled.

- Wizards may attempt to dispel a spell just cast by an enemy wizard. A level 1 or 2 wizard may attempt to dispel 1 spell in a magic phase, while a level 3 or 4 may attempt to dispel 2. A spell is dispelled on a d6 roll of 4+.

- Arcane Items can include items that give the ability to cast a as if one level higher, items that allow re-rolls of spells that failed to cast, dispel scrolls, etc.

Good points with this system (as I see them):
- It streamlines the magic phase.
- It puts everyone on the same level of magic power.
- No more armies with tons of power dice vs. armies with few dispel dice.
- No more demand for scroll caddies.
- Magic phase not determined by luck of the dice.

Bad points (that I can see, I'm sure there are more I'm missing):
- It completely changes the fluff of magic. No longer will it be dangerous to cast magic (miscasts, wizards killing themselves, etc.)
- Magic dependent armies (I'm looking at you VC) might take a hit (though I don't know if they will or not).
- People are resistant to change, despite what the gods of Chaos say.

larabic
20-01-2009, 21:14
I don't reall think the problem is with the magic system (although i kind of did like the deck of cards back in 4th) but with the books coming out, i think they need to stop giving everyone a "free" "non lore" spell and giving the ability to make 2000pt armies with 16 or more PD. Magic is fine game designers need fixing... I'll get the rope and clippers...

Necrotyr18
20-01-2009, 21:15
You may just call me stuck in my ways but I feel that the magic system works quite well as it is now. If you feel magic is a little overpowered then start the basic dispel at 4 insted of 2 for all armies and dwarves get 6. Leave power dice as they are.

Grand Warlord
20-01-2009, 21:20
Aside from those who take ultra magic heavy lists, i think it works alright. And, well, I wouldn't know where to start altering it.

Condottiere
20-01-2009, 21:33
The game requires a magic system or sub-systems that aren't too complex, the real problem at the moment is that it can be abused.

Jack Spratt
20-01-2009, 21:41
I like the magic system as it is now. Yes the scroll caddy is a little boring, but this is not really a problem IMO.

I say keep it as it is with one exception...
When you try to cast a spell with one die (like when I spam 1 dice Invocations with my Vamps) then a roll of a 1 should really be a miscast.

grimkeeper
20-01-2009, 21:51
get rid of automatic dispel scrolls,maybe adds x to dispel roll ,reduce amount of power dice.make it more of a dual between spell casters etc with loser having conseqenses.

Guy Fawkes
20-01-2009, 21:58
There's a few things I don't like about your "fix":

- A power level 3 spell is as easy to cast or dispel as a power level 1 spell? Casting 3 power level 1 spells are the only way to get through armies with a lot of Wizards.

- Everything dispels on a 4+. As a defending player, you can't decide you need to stop this spell at all costs or that you'd really like to "save" dispels. It doesn't matter if it is a weak spell or something that makes the Wizard swoon with power and tumble mountains, it goes away on a 50% chance.

- There are a lot more irresistible forces and miscasts, making magic more prone to random chance super-phases or phases where everything whiffs.

- Hurts armies like Tomb Kings, who have trouble doing anything without magic, have to take magic characters, etc...

- Removes the individuality from magic, eg. Necromancy casts just like the Lore of Life or High Magic. Gut Magic is the same as everything else.

- Armies that have a limited number of Wizards (especially Ogres) have no chance of going magic-heavy.

- In my opinion, removes some of the fun of magic. People constantly complain in the 40k forum and my gaming store that 40k has been "dumbed down" and all the characterful rules eliminated. Magic is a huge part of Warhammer and making it drastically simpler would make it easier, but remove a lot of the life from Warhammer, in my view.

Malorian
20-01-2009, 22:02
I've always thought this would be a good idea:

-Get rid of pool dice (both power and dispel)

-Each mage produces magic dice at the start of each of the six turns equal to their level plus one.

-These dice can be used to either cast spells or dispel them but each wizard can only cast spells with the dice they generated.

So bascially you would have to decide if you wanted to use your mages offensively, defensively, or somewhere in between. It gives a use for a second level defensive mage, and put more focus on the magical battle going on bewteen the mages rather than each side going all out each turn while a pool of dispel dice magically appears to defend you.

If you put all your dice into casting then you'll have nothing to defend yourself. If you use too much on stopping spells then you won't have anything left to cast with.

Thoughts?

Guy Fawkes
20-01-2009, 22:16
I've always thought this would be a good idea:

-Get rid of pool dice (both power and dispel)

-Each mage produces magic dice at the start of each of the six turns equal to their level plus one.

-These dice can be used to either cast spells or dispel them but each wizard can only cast spells with the dice they generated.

So bascially you would have to decide if you wanted to use your mages offensively, defensively, or somewhere in between. It gives a use for a second level defensive mage, and put more focus on the magical battle going on bewteen the mages rather than each side going all out each turn while a pool of dispel dice magically appears to defend you.

If you put all your dice into casting then you'll have nothing to defend yourself. If you use too much on stopping spells then you won't have anything left to cast with.

Thoughts?

Like this much better. How do you deal with armies that don't take mages? In this ruleset you have to take mages, and while that is more fluffy, it limits tactical flexibility (especially for Dwarfs). Maybe magic items that help?

darkace77450
20-01-2009, 22:16
I've always thought this would be a good idea:

-Get rid of pool dice (both power and dispel)

-Each mage produces magic dice at the start of each of the six turns equal to their level plus one.

-These dice can be used to either cast spells or dispel them but each wizard can only cast spells with the dice they generated.

So bascially you would have to decide if you wanted to use your mages offensively, defensively, or somewhere in between. It gives a use for a second level defensive mage, and put more focus on the magical battle going on bewteen the mages rather than each side going all out each turn while a pool of dispel dice magically appears to defend you.

If you put all your dice into casting then you'll have nothing to defend yourself. If you use too much on stopping spells then you won't have anything left to cast with.

Thoughts?

I can easily envision people just taking lots of dispel scrolls for their defense and using all of their dice offensively.

Guy Fawkes
20-01-2009, 22:20
I can easily envision people just taking lots of dispel scrolls for their defense and using all of their dice offensively.

At 25 points each, you would need quite a few dispel scrolls (and rob yourself of all the offensive arcane items). Plus, some armies can just slug right back with pure-offensive magic. It would make the phase more volatile, tactical, and balanced without making it boring.

The Clairvoyant
20-01-2009, 22:25
i don't think there's anything actually wrong with the rules. The problem is with the players.

Anyway, as a 'fix', i had this idea back in 2nd ed 40k to limit psykers where a points value game allows a certain psychic level. Translated to modern WFB, basically, a 2000pt game (as thats what seems to be the yardstick on warseer) could have a maximum magic level of 4. So you could take one level 4 mage, or a level 3 and a level 1, or 4 level 1s.
TKs would probably need something else (or count HLP as level 2 and LP as level 1) but it would work nicely with vampire armies (and i'm a VC player). I don't know how it'd affect other armies. Like i said, this is just a simple translation of my old 40k house rule i made up (which was 1 psychic level per 1000pts)

SuperArchMegalon
20-01-2009, 22:29
How about simply any character can take a single dispel scroll to battle (same price) and wizards can take multiple if they wish? Doesn't that fix the whole "scroll caddy" thing? Makes Runesmiths pretty useless though :P

As for the solution offered by TC, I think part of the charm of Warhammer is its complexity. Streamline it too much and you're playing 40k. Look at the Psyker system over there, ew

W0lf
20-01-2009, 22:34
The problem with the magic phase is the all or nothingness of it and the scroll caddy issue.

Its a hard thing to fix but i think the following would 'improve' it. Not fix it but make it a little better.

No base dice at all.

Mages generate DD as now +1. So a lvl 4 generates 3, lvl 2 generates 2.
Mages generate PD as now +1.

All dice are pooled much like 6th edition. This would help quite a few issues imo.
Add a 30 pt common item that lets a mage pick his spells, arcane ofc.

That way 2 lvl 2's would be more attractive then they are now.

As for magic defence? another common item and basic plan to the rescue!

Any army that has No PD gains 4 DD. Add a common item that is a dispel scroll (but can only have 1) so a fighty character can have a scroll. Thats no more scroll caddies (unless you want 2 DD 2 scrolls for alot of pts) and the reduced defence makes for 2 lvl 2's being more playable.

As it is i find;

1 lvl2 pure useless, lvl 1 w/ 2 scrolls in this case
2 lvl 2's a nice set-up and investement - that will never cast a decent spell or do anything worth their price
6 lvl of magic to be a BARE min. Even then its pretty costly for what itll do and not really worth taking 3 hero or 1 hero 1 lord slot.

8 Lvls is nice. With cast enhancing items magic is probabaly at its most effiecient.

Neknoh
20-01-2009, 22:42
Don't change anything except this one suggestion

Make wizards produce dispell dice for the OPPONENT instead of for yourself.

This way, a really magic heavy list, 10 levels of magic in 2k, will produce five dispell dice for the opponent, kept with the basic two dice, this would be twelve powerdice vs seven dispell dice.

Lower the cost of "add powerdice"-items but make them add dispell dice to the opponent as well.

Basically, if you invest in magic, you wont get shut down, but the opponent is not punished for not investing in it

W0lf
20-01-2009, 22:45
Why should magic be counterable for free?

Why have 12 PD vs 7 DD when you could just have say... 6 PD?

I dont get an improved armour save dependant on the amount of shooting my opponent brings.

theunwantedbeing
20-01-2009, 22:49
My idea.

Spells have Casting levels and casting values.
Both must be reached to cast a spell.
Casting levels go from 1-3
Casting values go from 3-15(as they do now)

Dispel is quite simple.
Each mage generates a dice per level in each magic phase.
A level 1 mage generates 1, a level 4, 4.

To dispel all you do is throw however many dice you wish from a particular mage at any particular spell that is within a given range of the mage.
So if the spell wa cast at a target say...12" from the mage, he can try to dispel it.
If a spell is cast say...48" from the mage, he cannot try to dispel it.

So dispelling works similar to how it does, only you attempt to lower the casting value of a spell to a fail. Similarly you can instead choose to reduce the casting dice used to cast the spell instead of the casting value.
You can choose to reduce the casting value by D6, or the casting value by 1(on a 4+).

This opens up a lot of scope for items that boost the casting power, or casting value of spells.
As well as items that reduce the casting power and/or casting value.

You could then decide whether your mage is going to be an offensive mage, or a defensive mage.
A defensive mage will be classed as 1 level higher for dispel, and an offensive mage will be classed as 1 level higher for casting purposes (although won't generate the extra dice)

So a defensive mage can dispel better than an offensive one can.
It'de need a bit of work with regards to items and such, but there's a lot of scope for making a very interesting phase.

eg.
Allowing the casting player to add a dice after a spell has been lowered, and then letting the dispelling player dipel some more...and so on untill you reach your limit.
Makes it more fun.

Note I havent included dispel scrolls as I have no idea how to incorporate them into that system.

The idea doesnt actually use dispel dice.
As dispel is more the mage drawing away the energies of the opposing mages as opposed to directly stopping them with a spell.
So several level 1 mages can draw away the powers or a single higher level mage, or draw away enough energy from a high level spell to stop it working it if was barely cast, rather than need to expend silly numbers of dice or resort to a dispel scroll.

So rolling 4 dice to cast a power level 3 spell (say infernal gateway) and not getting an irresistable force but getting say...23 to cast it.
You can then potentially dock those 4 dice down to 2 using only 2 dispel dice rather than needing a scroll or more like 5 or 6 dice to have a reasonable chance of hitting that amount with dice.

Seeing as that means a small number of dispel dice can potentially stop a spell cast with a lot of dice, you'de probably need an area of effect type thing to happen where mages can only strip power off a spell if within a certain range of the target, or the enemy caster.

Truculent
20-01-2009, 23:14
I'd be in favour of a system where you got to distribute magic dice between your dispel and power dice pools yourself, I think, be it at the start of the turn or at the start of the battle (probably the former). This might go some way toward ensuring that wizards would always be a useful presence even if they were outnumbered and outmatched, as they could focus all their strength on either casting or dispelling rather than having to make a half-assed attempt at both. Maybe the number of basic dice could do with being adjusted according to army size (1 per 500 points, for example) as well, instead of a flat 2+2. Lastly, scrolls could be made to work like reverse Power Stones, to make them less of a no-brainer and more in line with the otherwise random nature of magic.

Cherrystone
20-01-2009, 23:24
Why all this tonning down of the magic phase, wizards cost loads they arnt effective enough (unless you go so magic heavy you cant take anything else).

Faust
20-01-2009, 23:51
Why not make it simple. Seems the complaint is that all or nothing is the route to go. That you have to invest in Dispel Dice. Give the option for all heroes not wizards, +30 pts for 1 dispel dice. Keep it simple. At most this gives armies +4 Dispel Dice for non dwarfs (8 total for dwarfs). Wizards to compensate leave alone par Levels 1,2 modify 1 roll (per game) by +2 Levels 3.4 +4 once per game, cannot cause IF. Ergonomics.

alextroy
21-01-2009, 00:17
How to fix magic? It needs to be two things: More Predictible and Less Devestating.

More Predictible
No Rolling for Spells: Instead, break each lore down into 4 levels. A Wizard can cast all the spells of his lore that are his level or less. I would even suggest they give each lore two spells per level.

Smaller Range of Casting Values: Spells of a level should all be in a small range of casting values with the exact value chosen by relative power of spells of that level in all lores of spells.

Level 1: 4+ or 5+

Level 2: 6+ or 7+

Level 3: 8+ or 9+

Level 4: 10+ or 11+

Less Devestating
No Mega Spells: Any totally game changing spell needs to be excised from the rules or significantly changed. If the spell currently merits a 12+ or higher to cast is too powerful. Spells that do highly variable amounts of damage need to be toned down.

Reasonable Amounts of Dice: Armies that generate bucket loads of dice need to be redesigned to make the magic phase reasonable. Why are Horror wizards? Why do Dark Elves need a spell to give them more dice and Vampire Counts a power that can give all their wizards more dice? It has thrown the entire balance of magic off.

GodlessM
21-01-2009, 00:36
Really I don't think there is problem with the core magic system, but more with the magic in separate army book and the army composition rules, both of which allow for cheesing of magic.

TheDarkDuke
21-01-2009, 00:49
If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Fine as is.

Draconian77
21-01-2009, 00:56
I was thinking that your chance to miscast should go up depending on how many spells you cast. Haven't quite worked out a system for it yet.

Rioghan Murchadha
21-01-2009, 02:46
Go back to the frikking cards. Everyone got an equal amount of cards (unless there was an odd amount, then the person whos turn it was got the odd one). Every army could dispel whether they had a caster or not. (Although it would be on a 5+ as any caster is higher level than no caster).

You didn't need a scroll caddy, or even your own mage to stand a chance of surviving a magic phase. Plus with only 1 total power (old version of irrisitable force) in the deck, you didn't have to worry about multiple TPs in one phase.

Most peoples' issues with old magic (4th and 5th ed) comes from the power of the spells themselves, and the fact that some people found a deck of cards unwieldy (This is an oddity considering how popular poker is ;))

The system itself was FAR more balanced than the current one we have.

ChaosVC
21-01-2009, 04:26
The Magic system is fine.

Only way to fix it, increase the pts of Wizards whole sale since they do more damage then most fighting characters.

If dispell scroll so irksome,(imo its fine) increase its points to 30 so no more 2 scroll caddies.

This way people will have to consider whether he should take a very expansive wizard over a much cheaper Fighting character because wizards are no longer as cost effective and most people magic lvl will be almost about the same. No more overwhelming powerdice from on side.

Oh wait...I forgot horrors....INCREASE POINTS!!! Mwhahaahhaha!!!

orkz222
21-01-2009, 04:39
You may just call me stuck in my ways but I feel that the magic system works quite well as it is now. If you feel magic is a little overpowered then start the basic dispel at 4 insted of 2 for all armies and dwarves get 6. Leave power dice as they are.

I like this idea. Easy and effective fix.

Condottiere
21-01-2009, 07:06
Go back to the frikking cards. Everyone got an equal amount of cards (unless there was an odd amount, then the person whos turn it was got the odd one). Every army could dispel whether they had a caster or not. (Although it would be on a 5+ as any caster is higher level than no caster).

You didn't need a scroll caddy, or even your own mage to stand a chance of surviving a magic phase. Plus with only 1 total power (old version of irrisitable force) in the deck, you didn't have to worry about multiple TPs in one phase.

Most peoples' issues with old magic (4th and 5th ed) comes from the power of the spells themselves, and the fact that some people found a deck of cards unwieldy (This is an oddity considering how popular poker is ;))

The system itself was FAR more balanced than the current one we have.We'll probably end up with a variant of M:TG.

Lordmonkey
21-01-2009, 07:15
Alextroy is humming my tune. Remove high-powered spells and make spellcasting automatic - no dice needed. Classify each spell into power 1, 2, 3 and 4. Each wizard can cast any amount of spells but may not cast more spells than exceeds his total level. I.e., a level 3 wizard could cast 1 level 1 spell and 1 level 2 spell, or 1 level 3 spell, or 3 level 1 spells. Dispelling should also be easy, but not absoloutely certain - say each enemy wizard generates dispel dice as normal and can roll 1d6 to dispel a spell - on a 3+ it is dispelled.

Cambion Daystar
21-01-2009, 07:53
Just alter the list that generate too much powerdice (Tzeentch daemons) and stop spells from being cast multiple times (IoN spam). Make characters beside wizards able to take anti-magic.

Condottiere
21-01-2009, 07:57
Just alter the list that generate too much powerdice (Tzeentch daemons) and stop spells from being cast multiple times (IoN spam). Make characters beside wizards able to take anti-magic.

Ring of Hotek.:wtf:

Baragash
21-01-2009, 08:21
What about lifting the Liche Priest system (casting mechanism, not the hierarchy) and rolling it out to all armies as a start? So Hero level characters get X spells cast with Y dice, and Lord level get A spells cast with B dice (A>X, B>Y).

Limit spells to maybe 4 or 5 per Lore with less/no Mega-spells.

Haven't really thought about how dispel dice would be generated, but perhaps with a game-wide Liche system, it makes it more feasible to generate dispel dice per 1000pts/500pts?

The Red Scourge
21-01-2009, 08:21
Why not make magic work like everything else in the game.

Yes, I'm saying to get rid of dispel dies and scrolls. You have no equivalent 'dodge' dies in neither the shooting nor the close combat phase.

Mages will become equivalent to cannons ie. they can produce an effect at the risk of miscasts.

Magic Resistance will raise the target number for spell casting – like skirmishers and range does for shooting and WS does for CC, or it could be a ward save.

With the absense of dispel dies, magic will no longer be an all or nothing approach.

PROS: It speeds the game up by eliminating dice rolls. Magic becomes equal to the other aspects of the game. Your single lvl 2 mage will still be able to do something vs. a gazillion magic level army.

CONS: It eliminates the dispel game within the game, and takes the "magic" out of magic.

FredNo1
21-01-2009, 08:21
Ive got alot of ideas that i am sure would improve warhammer alot.

Ive thought about the magic phase before and as many areas in warhammer i think it should be made alittle faster, easier to understand and more controlled (less broken stuff). All this to make sure it becomes a more fun and smooth game.

Making magic simple: mages are divided in 2 levels. Each mage knows all the spells from their spellbook. Each mage can cast 2 spells per magic phase, you roll to see if they are cast properly with dice (a set amount of dice depending on spell, for example magic missile with 2d6 hits str 5 cast on 8+ with 2 dice).
A level 2 mage would always add another dice to his casts. You cannot dispell magic.
Magic would be alittle random (like shooting) but not crazily random, enemies dont have to take hundred of pts to stop magic, and those armies that depend on their magic get it at a somewhat reliable rate.

Master Stark
21-01-2009, 09:40
Magic is fine game designers need fixing... I'll get the rope and clippers...

Pretty much sums it up.

Designers need to stop giving armies such significant boosts to casting and thier dice pool, and stop giving armies 'free' spells.

The system is fine, and was working well as long as each wizard only got one spell per level, one dice per level, and had access to the two generic dice.

Once designers started messing with that, things got out of hand.

Zarryiosiad
21-01-2009, 16:32
I'm one of those people that believe magic isn't powerful enough, and that scroll caddies are a really, really stupid idea. It's just too easy to keep spellcasters from accomplishing anything with a minimal amount of effort.

My idea would be to limit the number of dispel dice a mage can throw to their level +1. You still generate the same number of dice, but if you have a level 1 mage, you can use up to two dispel dice per spell.

Also, points for magic items should be restricted to 25 points per level. A level 1 scroll caddy could spend up to 25 points on magic items (i.e., one scroll), a level 3 could spend 75 points, etc.

To keep the more powerful spells in line, increase the casting cost by a couple of points. "Infernal Gateway" is a powerful spell, but unless you pull out all the stops on your character's upgrades, at 15+ to cast it's incredibly hard to get off.

Zarryiosiad

Lazarus15
21-01-2009, 17:07
Magic phase is fine as is. It needed to be more prevelant in the game. Before it just kinda helped out an army. Now it is a force to be reckoned with. I am sorry, but people need to adapt and start rethinking how their armies work in regards to movement, MAGIC, shooting, and combat.

If you are heavy in one, you may dominate that phase, but usually end up hurting in another phase.

larabic
21-01-2009, 17:20
Pretty much sums it up.

Designers need to stop giving armies such significant boosts to casting and thier dice pool, and stop giving armies 'free' spells.

The system is fine, and was working well as long as each wizard only got one spell per level, one dice per level, and had access to the two generic dice.

Once designers started messing with that, things got out of hand.

I agree with Master Stark agreeing with me...

chosenoftzeentch
21-01-2009, 17:24
3 Years ago when I first got into Warhammer the magic phase was little more that a blip on peoples radar. Maybe you had a level 2 wizard with a Dispel scroll and maybe an arcane item. If you were super risky you might have a second or *pause for dramatic effect* a level 4 wizard. But these army's were hard to come by. All that Games-Workshop has really done is put equal focus on the magic phase. Is it any more fair that Dwarfs or Empire have a shooting phase and VC don't. Were is the VC player complaining about how unfair the shooting is and that armies should only be able to field at max 2 ranged units. How about the Ogre Kingdoms army that wants to limit the amount of models that army's can field in general.

Really I'm just taking the long way around in saying that, what people really don't like is that the magic phase now has meaning, real game changing meaning.

Condottiere
21-01-2009, 17:27
I'm one of those people that believe magic isn't powerful enough, and that scroll caddies are a really, really stupid idea. It's just too easy to keep spellcasters from accomplishing anything with a minimal amount of effort.

My idea would be to limit the number of dispel dice a mage can throw to their level +1. You still generate the same number of dice, but if you have a level 1 mage, you can use up to two dispel dice per spell.

Also, points for magic items should be restricted to 25 points per level. A level 1 scroll caddy could spend up to 25 points on magic items (i.e., one scroll), a level 3 could spend 75 points, etc.

To keep the more powerful spells in line, increase the casting cost by a couple of points. "Infernal Gateway" is a powerful spell, but unless you pull out all the stops on your character's upgrades, at 15+ to cast it's incredibly hard to get off.

ZarryiosiadWhile I doubt that throwing more than five dice, whether casting or dispelling, is wise, restricting dispel dice to level plus one would force everyone to have at least one caster lord in their line-up.

chosenoftzeentch
21-01-2009, 17:34
The system is fine, and was working well as long as each wizard only got one spell per level, one dice per level, and had access to the two generic dice.



Why stop there...

In close combat you can only attack once for a normal troop, two times for a champion, heroes get 3 attacks and lords get 4 MAX. No character or troop can ever hit on better than 3+ or worse than 5+.

In the shooting phase no model can fire more that one shot

All models move the same, lets say 4 inches. Mounts can move 8.

All models need to be identical but must have colors to signify their importance. Troops must be blue, Champions must in pink, Heroes in red, and Lords in Orange.

Thats my modest proposal.

RossS
21-01-2009, 17:39
Don't change anything except this one suggestion

Make wizards produce dispell dice for the OPPONENT instead of for yourself.

This way, a really magic heavy list, 10 levels of magic in 2k, will produce five dispell dice for the opponent, kept with the basic two dice, this would be twelve powerdice vs seven dispell dice.

Lower the cost of "add powerdice"-items but make them add dispell dice to the opponent as well.

Basically, if you invest in magic, you wont get shut down, but the opponent is not punished for not investing in it

Shuldn't you be punished for not investing in your own magical defense? Why would anyone invest in magic at all in this system?

I don't really think there is to much of a problem with the magic system per se, but certain armies are able to exploit it a little too readily. I suspect if the VC hadn't received an uneeded reboot of their magic phase then this thread would not exist.

Zarryiosiad
21-01-2009, 17:54
While I doubt that throwing more than five dice, whether casting or dispelling, is wise, restricting dispel dice to level plus one would force everyone to have at least one caster lord in their line-up.

I disagree. It would force more people to pay for the level 2 upgrade, but other than that I don't think things would change. You might end up seeing more than one level 2 mage in an army, but the fact that you can still miscast and blow up your own Mage Lord will keep people from fielding a level 4 more often than not.

DarkTerror
21-01-2009, 17:55
I don't get how some people think the magic phase doesn't have problems.

There are only two, but they're significant. I'm not arguing that magic shouldn't be effective mind you.

1) Who sees a single level 2 mage go to battle? Nobody. 2 level 2's? Well, only if you're playing someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

Go for 8+ power levels or go for 1. Go for 0 and you might get annihilated. Anything between 2 and 7 and you're not being effecient.

2) Dispel scrolls are fine for keeping overpowered magic in check. But now you still have a problem, as instead of lessening the magic you're now virtually required to have a dispel scroll or more in your army.

They should be as optional as any other magic equipment. The only reason people don't complain about dispel scrolls being overpowered is because the magic phase is not balanced.

Mireadur
21-01-2009, 18:03
I really like your system although i think it would need a deep analysis army by army and facing several different situations about the number of casters present per side.

Just from giving it a very somere thought i believe it would need really small tweaks and mainly into making dispelling easier than what you present.

Summarizing i really like your system. I also believe theres a huge problem when the current system gets abused (almost always nowadays) and i wish i could get my own friends to try something different too. But as you said, Tzeentch has no room into the real world of WH players (at least in what comes to the house ruling).

40kdhs
21-01-2009, 18:15
It'd be nice to know if you can cast magic in CC because it's currently unclear. I know some obviously states it while some don't. Please put it in the 'lore' description so that nobody argues that you can because it doesn't say.

I know that the current MR only works if you target the unit that has MR. How about if we can use MR and other dispell dice to dispell?

chosenoftzeentch
21-01-2009, 18:42
I don't get how some people think the magic phase doesn't have problems.

There are only two, but they're significant. I'm not arguing that magic shouldn't be effective mind you.

1) Who sees a single level 2 mage go to battle? Nobody. 2 level 2's? Well, only if you're playing someone who doesn't know what they're doing.



Are you talking offense or defense there is a difference. If you want your mage to aggressively cast spells than you may want to take a level 2 mage. Because they get an extra spell. (side note all Heralds of Tzeentch and Vampire Lords are level 2) And when you have a two in six chance of getting any good spell I would add the extra 35ish points to get a better spell.

On the Defense side I can definitely see why taking a level 2 wizards is a bad idea. But then do you really care about your aggressive spell casting anyway.