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Sir_Lunchalot
20-01-2009, 22:46
What lore?

So, I've been having some success with my warriors of chaos army, and there are two parts of my army that are still... underwhelming. My Hellcannon is a matter for another thread, and mostly my fault for guessing wrong. The opic here is the other component, my mages.

Right now I'm running a warrior based army that looks something like this at 2k

exalted champ on juggernaut

2 lvl 2 sorcerers

2 units of 12 Khorne warriors w/ halberd shield

1 unit of 12 Tzeentch warriors w/ shields (holds the mages)

2 units of 5 marauder horsemen

1 unit of knights with mark of Khurgle*

1 hellcannon

Right now I'm fielding each wizard with a single dispel scroll, one is Nurgle the other is Tzeentch. My problem is that as nice as some spells are, my magic doesn't seem to be particularly effective. Nurgle seems to be the most useful lore, simply because Buboes is so useful. but my Tzeentch mage... will usually get his magic missile off once, and that's it. I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to switch one or both to the lores of fire or death. On one hand, Fire is a little more destructive, and Flaming Sword of Rhuin is most effective in the hands of an already competent chaos sorcerer. On the other hand, my mages will have difficulty casting a few fire spells, whereas Death is useable by all lvl 2 mages. Also, If I roll good for spells, with death I'm more likely to get spells I can cast while in combat. What do you guys think?


* That is mark of Nurgle and Banner of rage, for the same effects (but better) of both marks of Khorne and Nurgle)

W0lf
20-01-2009, 22:48
take 2 nurgle sorc's.

Throw 3 dice at buboes each and watch your opponent sweat.

Personally i dont think you have enough magic to expect a good return for the pts.

Drop the hellcannon and tz lvl 2 and get a nurgle lvl 4. Hows that? (yes i love magic)

Sir_Lunchalot
20-01-2009, 23:05
I thought about it, but that Hellcannon is actually quite useful, even if it can't hit anything. having a T6 unbreakable monster hiding behind my lines is actually quite useful. and if i took a Lvl 4 mage I'd go Tzeentch, just for the chance of getting gateway.

Lord Dan
20-01-2009, 23:16
The hellcannon is like an insane treeman with a gun. Why wouldn't you take it?

W0lf
20-01-2009, 23:31
Personally?

Back when it was released my WoC army had ~30 models at 2K. My gaming group including my best mate all loved the idea and so kept a long running joke of 'sam get a hellcannon' everytime my army hit the table.

I refused as a large siege machine for destroying walls was/is in my oppinion 'very silly' in a 2K game with 25 or so models alongside it and no walls in sight. To tell the truth im very anti-hellcannon as an idea unless its a seige.

I swore id never ever use one as a combo of hating it and the 'get a hellcannon gibe' and so i havnt and wont ^^.

Oh and take it from a TZ purest.. IG i sooooooo over-rated. Id swap it for bolt of change in a heartbeat.

Neknoh
20-01-2009, 23:35
I would simply go for Nurgle on the second sorc, as said, two Nurgle Sorcerors with buboes two/three-diced does throw some pretty decent magic around. Add in, perhaps, a Powerstone on one or each of them to suddenly flick away that one, game-tilting spell once your opponent think he's all clear.

3-dice buboes, suck dice
2-dice buboes, suck more dice
1-dice+powerstone anything else, no dice left for dispell.

Even if it sucks a scroll, you are still trading equally, one powerstone for one scroll... and it means no scroll for the powerstone on the OTHER guy :skull:

Guy Fawkes
20-01-2009, 23:38
I agree with W0lf. There are lots of armies that have to defend against 14+ power dice armies. This kind of "defend against magic" metagame will stop an army with two level 2 Sorcerers (especially without a host of great magic-boosting items) from casting a lot of spells. In my mind you typically need about 6 power dice + 1 nice offensive magic item or 7 to 8 power dice in order to get 1 spell off a turn. That is a rather poor investment for the points.

Since you want some firepower in your list, I recommend one of two things. Either try to force more magic through, with either an additional Sorcerer or a Sorcerer Lord (you could probably dump one of the level 2's with this) or drop a Sorcerer and take a second Hellcannon. Considering the Hellcannon is more expensive than a Lvl 2. Sorcerer, especially if you want to keep the dispel scroll, you might have to move things around. If you make the second Sorcerer a scroll caddy at Lvl. 1 and get rid of his mark, you should have enough points to just squeeze in the Hellcannon, assuming you drop the 140 point Tzeentch Sorcerer. This, plus saving 55 points from dropping the mark and level from the Nurgle Sorcerer is just 10 points short of the Hellcannon. You could change up the Tzeentch Warrior Unit, because you no longer need to hold the mages (the scroll caddy can hide in a forest). Instead, you can change marks, equipment, or opt for Marauders to increase your model count and save points. Either way, I think the Hellcannon is very useful, and a second one will allow a lot of panic tests and table-quarter holding.

If you really want magic this is what I would do:
Change the Sorcerer's mark from Tzeentch to Nurgle. Sure the +1 to cast is nice, but I think that is more useful on a lvl. 4 who will cast more than one spell a turn. Nurgle is a better and more destructive lore in my opinion, and one which helps address the weaknesses of the Hellcannon and kill models that the rest of your list will have trouble with. (You can save points by taking Death, which is what I would take if I didn't want Nurgle, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch) Then I would try to fit at least a few of these items into the list: Book of Secrets, Rod of Torment, Power Familiar, Blood of Tzeentch (this item has screwed me before, making a roll of, say, 4 and 2, into a 4 and 5), Skull of Katam, or possibly a few power stones. You need a few more power dice or a bound spell to make a good magic phase, in my opinion. Then you just need to target well and hope for the best. Note that this will take away some dispel scrolls and use up more points (where you get these are up to you). However, I feel the best method to force magic is to add another Wizard. Chaos units as a whole are very powerful in close combat, and with a few wounds from a Hellcannon or magic inflicted early on in the battle, you can meet the enemy when they don't have full rank bonus, or possibly even outnumber. Your superior Warriors can then kill and seize the day.

I lean towards the additional Hellcannon option, but also try out dropping one Wizard, making the other a scroll caddy, and seeing what you can do with an extra 200-ish points. You might decide you don't need more firepower if more units of yours make combat unscathed.

W0lf
20-01-2009, 23:42
Depends on how you like to play....

I personally find that sniping enemy characters with wizards so its troops vs troops (CC characters dead, mages avoid combat) which chaos is unlikely to lose, being our strength and all, is better then trying to strip rank bonus's only to be hit by tooled up hero/lords that take away our combat advanatge and make the lack of our own fighty characters a bigger hinderance.

Lord Dan
21-01-2009, 00:36
If you're capable of consistantly sniping enemy CC characters, then you shouldn't ever lose a game.

W0lf
21-01-2009, 01:14
Using buboes ofc...

Lazarus15
21-01-2009, 02:52
If you wanted to use a book lore, I would for sure use either Lore of Shadow, Lore of Heavens, or Lore of Metal. Between those lores, you can pretty much cover all bases. All of those lores, should help out with warriors, and each have spells that ignore armor saves. That way your opponent can get lucky, he just gets dead.

For maximum amount of damage (making your opponent roll a bunch of dice) then lore of fire works well. If you can choose your spells, instead of rolling for them, then you might want to look at lore of life.

Re-reading the book lores, they really are quite good. They are not "Bolts-of-Change", but they are very very good.

Neknoh
21-01-2009, 09:24
Where do you get metal from? And Heaven and Shadow are only available to Sorceror Lords. I would LOVE to have access to the Lore of Metal, if that was available to undivided sorcerors, I would almost always field a sorceror lord with it, simply because I find the lore incredibly awesome.

Now, on the topic of magic and shooting, I would say that two level two's can actually cut it rather decently, especially with both a Hellcannon and a jugger-rider in the army. What is important here is the fact that, on three dice, you are still looking at 3-4 dice to dispell it, meaning that there's not a lot of armies out there which can actually do that. And with the rest of the Nurgle Spells as potential backups, not many people will be scrolling buboes.

Now, the key to USING buboes is NOT to snipe combat characters, the Jugger-exalted and even some of our unit champions can easely handle most heroes out there, heck, the exalted can even handle a handful of the lords. Instead, you will want to snipe either mages (though they should be ruthlessly hunted by Horsemen and Hellcannon shots as well, panic at -1ld on a mage unit = ouch) or, more prominently, you want to snipe unit-champions in units your Jugger is about to charge, removing their abillity to challenge and therefore mitigate the damage he brings onto the unit (Although, he can still WIN the combat from overkill, he will still kill only one model).

This is also an effective way of hunting mages, a mage might well be hiding in a unit, confident the unit champion will stop the jugger in its tracks, a buboes getting through later and that forced challenge might not sit well with the mage, who will either hide or get run over (don't try this in the Empire kids).

And, as said, 3-dicing Buboes gives you a high casting value as well as a decent chance to roll irresistable force. Remember to keep a powerstone on one or two of your sorcerors if you find a window after casting the first buboes on three and the second on two, that way, you CAN cast another spell on three dice as well.

W0lf
21-01-2009, 11:46
How you use buboes varies from game to game ofc. That was a quick thought.

Oh and i cant help but feel taking 2 lvl 2's merely validates your opponents scroll caddy or increases the use of his mages (their DD).

Neknoh
21-01-2009, 12:12
With Chaos, I would say that it actually doesn't quite do that, a scroll caddy will still struggle in shutting down even two level twos if you focus on high casting values rather than spam low-level casts on one dice. Basically, he will have to burn scrolls to stop your spells on turn one allready, meaning he wont have any for your spells in later turns.

Essentially, a scroll caddy is only adequate protection if the oponent either casts with low casting-totals, or if he only casts one or two game-breaking spells.

With Nurgle, two level twos with buboes can easely pick the magical defences of an army appart even if they are heavy. Target wizards or unit champions with buboes on three dice and you are looking at the enemy needing to three or four dice his own DD to stop you, meaning that he'll need somewhere allong the lines of 6 or 7 dispell dice (ten levels of magic) to stop you, and as soon as you've got one enemy wizard down, either from horsemen-charge or from buboes, you are looking at the upper hand in magic.

Sir_Lunchalot
21-01-2009, 19:38
I'm liking the idea of two level 2 mages constantly casting buboes on 3 dice. So next question: in my 3000 point list I'm playing with the idea of a sort of Nurgle cabal. Adding a third nurgle wizard with the skull of Katam, and replacing the tzeentch warriors with a block of slaanesh marauders. In that list I'm very tempted to throw around lores of death or fire because of the general destructiveness. or should I leave the lore of death to the book fo secrets?

W0lf
21-01-2009, 19:41
I really dont think that lore of death is as good as people say it is.

Infact i prefer almost every armys own lores to it. Only lores that are worth taking generally over army ones seem to be Metal vs right opponent or Fire for direct damage.

Shadow is nce if you get 5 AND 6 but otherwise its pretty shabby.

Lazarus15
21-01-2009, 20:35
Sorry, I didn't know that the lore of metal was off limits. However Steed of Shadow, Creeping Death, and Shades of death are good. Crown of Taidron can be good seeing as how warriors are pretty resilient. But the Crown is def. not the best spell in the lore.