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Dooks Dizzo
21-01-2009, 03:59
I might be putting together a tournament here sometime in the near future and I would love for a little help from the Warseer community.

It's a 3500 point Fantasy tournament and I plan on writing up scenario's for it. Due to the nature of the game, any time you deviate from the book as far as mission go, balance issues and questions arise.

To aleviate some of the balance problems the missions will be made available well before the tournament, giving players ample opportunity to fine tune for the tourny.

In addition I would like to provide an FAQ for each mission to clear up any questions people might have. This is where you guys come in!

I'd like to post the missions here and have people pose questions they might have if they were playing the missions. I can't think of everything on my own for every army, so it would be of great help to me.

Mission 1: The Null Stone
Standard 12" deployment.
Normal Victory Point rules (+100 for captured banners, +100 for killing the army general), no table quarters, units over half strength with models wholly or partially within 6 inches of the center of the board are worth double VP's


The Null Stone
Place a marker in the exact center of the table. This is the Null Stone.

Effects of the Null Stone

Spells
Any spells cast or targeted within 6 inches of the Null Stone AUTOMATICALLY miscast, bound spells or powers that function like bound spells, simply fail. Wizards attempting to draw line of sight through the 'null zone' will have their spell fail, assuming it does not miscast.

Remains in play
Units under the effect of a Remain in Play spell will stop being effected by the spell as soon as they have one or more models within 6 inches of the Null Stone. However, the spell will function again if the unit moves away from the area, assuming the wizard who cast it hasn't cast another spell or ended it himself. The spell will continue where it left off, regardless of how many magic phases have passed while they were within 6 inches of the stone.

Ward Saves
Ward saves may not be taken by a unit who has at least one model within 6 inches of the Null Stone, be they from a magic item or some other source.

Magic Items
No magic items function within 6 inches of the Null stone. This includes magic items carried by a model within a unit who has at least one model within 6 inches of the Null Stone.

Daemonic Gifts and Bloodline powers count as Magic items for these purposes.

Magic weapons and armor count as their mundane items of their type.

Regeneration, Hatred, Fenzy, Fear and Terror
All of these abilities function as normal so long as they are not provided by a magic item, daemonic gift or bloodline power.

Bonus points:
Controled the Null Stone at least once +1 point
Control of the Null Stone at the end of the game +1 point
Opponent never controlled the Null Stone +1 point


Mission 2: The Lions Share
The boss always gets the best loot! Well not this time!

Normal deployment
Standard victory points with the following exceptions: Lord level characters are worth double VP's.
Table Quarters
Lords cannot score victory points.
Lords cannot claim or contest table quarters.

In this scenario Lord level characters cannot claim victory points for any reason! If a Lord takes place in a combat that results in destroying an enemy unit, no victory points are scored.

If a Lord or his mount causes Fear/Terror and this ability forces an enemy to flee off the table, no victory points are scored.

If a Lord causes a unit to flee due to Fear/Terror and then the unit is charged by a non Lord unit and destroyed, normal victory points are scored.

Lords may cause wounds to units through magic/ranged attacks and have the target subsequently destroyed by another unit and still count VP's as normal.

*****************

Okay, those are the two that I have so far. The missions are going to be built to actually cause players to have to work a little bit. In 3500 points many people will normally just pack on the big stuff and have at it.

Yes I know Mission 1 is hard on Daemons. I will find a way to live with myself.

Lord Dan
21-01-2009, 04:38
The null stone mission sounds cool, but I would change just a few things:

1) Make it so that remains in play spells just end when a unit enters the null zone. Trying to keep track of who has what even though the effects aren't going off is going to be more tiring than fun.

2) Gifts and bloodline powers should not count as magic items. If they do, then so should Ogre big names, Bretonnian vows, and Lizardman spawnings. Right now it just looks like an anti-VC/Daemons rule, which is sort of a silly thing to do at a tournament. They're hard to beat. THAT is something you should try to live with, not bias the game and do what you think is fair.

3) Make the null zone more "null". Make units immune to all psychology (so no frenzy, stupidity, etc.) to represent the calming power. I wouldn't go so far as to make units unbreakable, but this will definately make claiming the null zone more attractive (apart from the bonus at the end).

In the Lion's stare I like what you're trying to achieve, I just fear it might backfire on you. Right now any lord that is mounted just has to fly around and survive, while the ones one foot (most of mine are) are basically just waiting around to die. Maybe make all Lords stupid or something, I don't know.

ChaosVC
21-01-2009, 04:46
Hi,

For scenario one, I disaggree that bloodline powers be consider to be magical due to fluff reasons...bloodline powers are like the power of a normal humans ability to walk and jump only they are more powerful than that.

As for daemonic gift, its kind of iffy. Since Daemons can be consider magical beings...wouldn't they be taking damage for getting too close to the null stone?

But my reasons are based on fluffy reasoning haha.

For the second Scenario, I think its too punishing for armies with pricy lord choice and it favours armies with cheap and less useful lord choices, not very balance.

Dooks Dizzo
21-01-2009, 05:01
Thanks for the input guys!

To address:

1) Make it so that remains in play spells just end when a unit enters the null zone. Trying to keep track of who has what even though the effects aren't going off is going to be more tiring than fun.
Perfect, I will change that right away.


2) Gifts and bloodline powers should not count as magic items. If they do, then so should Ogre big names, Bretonnian vows, and Lizardman spawnings. Right now it just looks like an anti-VC/Daemons rule, which is sort of a silly thing to do at a tournament. They're hard to beat. THAT is something you should try to live with, not bias the game and do what you think is fair.
**********************
For scenario one, I disaggree that bloodline powers be consider to be magical due to fluff reasons...bloodline powers are like the power of a normal humans ability to walk and jump only they are more powerful than that.Looking at it, I agree with Bloodline powers, but not so much with Daemonic Gifts. A Vampire will be hampered by his magic items not working, which is good enough but a Daemon will be at full strength.

Most Daemons that would be effected are plenty powerful without their gifts, it shouldn't hurt them TOO badly. (And they can just stay the hell out of the Null Zone :) )

I am good with Bretonians Vows not working and Lizardmen spawnings will be gone by the tourny ;) Big Names seem like Bloodline powers to me, not so much magical as a skill.


3) Make the null zone more "null". Make units immune to all psychology (so no frenzy, stupidity, etc.) to represent the calming power. I wouldn't go so far as to make units unbreakable, but this will definately make claiming the null zone more attractive (apart from the bonus at the end). Immune to psych is a good idea, I will definitely consider it. (Do units lose frenzy?)


In the Lion's stare I like what you're trying to achieve, I just fear it might backfire on you. Right now any lord that is mounted just has to fly around and survive, while the ones one foot (most of mine are) are basically just waiting around to die. Maybe make all Lords stupid or something, I don't know. Well, the missions will be posted in advance, so people can make adjustments. I forgot people brought Lords on foot :D


As for daemonic gift, its kind of iffy. Since Daemons can be consider magical beings...wouldn't they be taking damage for getting too close to the null stone? This is represented by them losing their Ward save.


For the second Scenario, I think its too punishing for armies with pricy lord choice and it favours armies with cheap and less useful lord choices, not very balance. Remember also that there are going to be three missions. It should be hard for anyone to gear up to just crush all three.

This mission will change the meta game just a bit and keep super powered Lords from running around slaughtering everything. But just for this mission.

505
21-01-2009, 05:06
if you do scenerios dont do scenerios that effect army lists like that

do ones like fickle magic roll to keep your PD and DD (gaves scenerio generator has some decent ideas)

make one that punishes magic and one that punishes shooting or cc

ok not punish but limits. randomly roll for range each turn (game turn so to be fair for both). the aforementioned fickle winds. not sure what to do with CC. flyers have to use walk value on rolls of 1-3 or something

but scenerios should punish specific armies. dont make 2 that limit magic or two limiting shooting (as your intentionally hampering specific armies). so an all shooty dwarf will struggle in one game but should do ok in another. tzeenich powerdice of doom should struggle in one but not both

if you have three scenerios that limit three main aspects of the game that are released ahead of time should make a bit more balanced games. (should)

Dooks Dizzo
21-01-2009, 05:35
The first scenario does really punish anyone specifically guys. The center of the table is a bad place to be if you rely on magic heavily but it's also easily avoided.

The second one shouldn't be TOO bad. At 3500 a lot of people are going to be relying on their Lords to do the dirty work. For one mission, it simply won't play well to do so. I would imagine a smart player would still use his Lord to neutralize threats while Cores, Specials and Rares pick up the Lion Share of the fighting and claiming objectives.

In all cases the skill of the general comes into play.

Making flyers fail to fly half the time, or shooters even more worthless comes down to dice. You can't set up tactics or build strategies when half the time you're hosed because of a single die roll.

Mostly people will have to play to the scenario instead of relying on the standard tricks to win a game.

Of course if that makes the play less enjoyable, there's no reason to do it. In the end it's all about having fun.

I do have to say I don't mind rewarding players who bring a ton of core choices though.

Goldenwolf
21-01-2009, 06:30
I am not trying to discourage you, but try 2500 points.

When we played 3500 points in the Ard Boyz tournament, turns 2-4 saw the end of the game.

I was playing VC, and when I played a Skaven player we got a turn 2 Draw. It was not good.

3500 points can be fun, but if a 3-3.5 hour time frame is desired, cut the points down.

Dooks Dizzo
21-01-2009, 06:52
What about 3000?

Obviously the idea is to allow people to bring that vaunted second Lord choice. I missed the Fantast 'Ard Boyz but I was curious to see how the heck 3500 played out.

Sounds like it's a tough one.

The difference between 2500 and 3000 isn't that much since most Lords cost around 500 or so.

Condottiere
21-01-2009, 06:55
I agree that you have to factor in how much time you have available and then calculate the suitable number of points.

Will terrain be random, or pre-arranged, and will the players know it in advance? If they know it in advance, deployment becomes a lot speedier and usually tactics have usually been decided on, moving the game along faster.

Foxbat
21-01-2009, 11:16
Have you considered the effect of ethereal units on scenario one?

Would not an ethereal unit plus the null stone equal auto win against most lists?

Guy Fawkes
21-01-2009, 11:19
Sorry if these have been answered already:

Do Wood Elf Spites, Ogre Big Names, Bret Vows (?), etc... count as magic items too, like Bloodline powers and gifts?

How does the null stone work if something like the focus familiar is used? If the opponent measures range through the null stone but not LOS or vice versa?

Magic missiles can't be fired through the null zone, but what about magic shooting? eg. Dwarf Runic warmachines, magic ranged weapons, etc...

Are Ethereals just invincible in the null zone?

What happens if a Lord makes a joint charge against a unit, which is reduced to half strength (or not), but wins combat. The Lord flees and the friendly unit stays, but in later rounds the enemy unit is destroyed. How do you work out whether there should be full, no, or half victory points awarded, assuming the Lord can never earn VP's.

Can a Slann still cast "through" models inside the Null Zone, even if he is not inside himself (don't know the new Lizardmen book, so don't know if both LOS and range or just one or the other comes through the Skink Priest).

Do Tomb Kings automatically miscast too? (I'm assuming not, but RAW)

If an Ogre Butcher casts Trollguts on a Bulls unit, which then enters the null zone, does the spell scale up in value, even though the unit with the remains-in-play spell is not benefiting?

The Clairvoyant
21-01-2009, 11:41
In terms of magic armour counting as mundane, what happens with Walach Bloody Hauberk (4+ save with 5+ ward) or Flayed Hauberk (2+ save, no improvements)? They are both types of magic armour. Ok the ward on WBH is easy to eliminate, but though they are both clearly magic armour, what is their mundane armour save? One could argue that WBH should retain its basic 4+ save under the guise of full plate, but one could also argue thats its only heavy armour, or a rules lawyer could claim that the armour has no equivalent and therefore that big hulk of metal is as much use as Vlad von Carsteins armour! :P

Count de Monet
21-01-2009, 11:53
Mission 3: Holy Ground: Daemons and Vampires are destroyed upon setup/deployment. ;)

==Me==
21-01-2009, 13:04
Mission 3: Holy Ground: Daemons and Vampires are destroyed upon setup/deployment. ;)

That sounds about right considering the first 2:rolleyes:

Condottiere
21-01-2009, 13:16
Mission 4: Graveyard Shift

Effects of Vampire Magic are doubled, because there's a graveyard in the middle of the table.

Dooks Dizzo
21-01-2009, 15:24
Have you considered the effect of ethereal units on scenario one?

Would not an ethereal unit plus the null stone equal auto win against most lists? Nice! i totally forgot about that. Combat res can still kill stuff but that's a bit too powerful. I'll work something out.

Dooks Dizzo
21-01-2009, 16:00
Please keep the input coming guys! All these questions and idea's are great. With community members giving their thoughts like this, a fair idea can become a great idea in no time.

I am composing an FAQ for each mission based on the thoughts posted here.

For example:

Q. How does the Null Talismon effect magic armor that does not have a specific mundane counter part, such as the Bloody Hauberk from the Vampire Counts army?

A. If no specific Mundane counter part is listed in the army book, the armor save granted by the item will dictate the Mundane save. Example:
5+ counts as Heavy Armor
4+ or better counts as Full Plate

Q. How does the null stone work if something like the focus familiar is used? If the opponent measures range through the null stone but not LOS or vice versa?

A. If the focus familiar or similiar item/power is used and it does not draw LOS through the Null Zone, it functions normally.

Q. Magic missiles can't be fired through the null zone, but what about magic shooting? eg. Dwarf Runic warmachines, magic ranged weapons, etc...


A. If there is a Mundane aspect to the shooting attacks, it will fire normally but lose any properties granted by magic. So a Runic Warmachine would fire normally but lose any magic properties. Attacks like those from Flamers of Tzeench would not be able to go through the Null Zone.

Lord Dan
21-01-2009, 19:19
Okay, well if you're going with bloodline powers being acceptable, then Vows, Big names, and Spawnings have to stay. I would argue that daemon abilities should stay as well, but you seem pretty set on them not having it, so I'll leave it be. I will say to be careful not to let your own opinion influence the games too much. This is a tournament, after all, and many of the players will have Daemon armies. Best not to upset the majority.

I don't know where you're playing where most lords are flying and 500 points, but where I come from lords cost anywhere from 200-350 points (at most) and just ride horses. Then again, you ARE at a tournament...

I had another thought- what about things with "magic attacks" (so not magic weapons), such as Dryads, dragons, grave guard, and grail knights? Do they lose their attacks in the null zone, or do they just not count as magical?

Lazarus15
21-01-2009, 20:16
I like the scenarios alot! Both scenarios sound like a lot of fun to play, and I actually may play test them later this week.

On that note, the first scenario sound good except things like bloodline powers, and gifts for Chaos (daemon or mortal) should stay. But perhaps wards are at a -1. If you do kill the gifts, then the Daemons should keep their wards IMO. At ABSOLUTE worse case, do both. But please do not kill off their wards entirely and the gifts. That doen't make sense to me. I know it is a null zone, but still.

Dooks Dizzo
21-01-2009, 23:15
Third mission title: Knives in the Dark.

I am thinking everyone gets a free Shadowblade from the DE book with bonus points for assassinating a character :)

Okay, either wards OR Gifts. I can work with that.

If I don't do one or the other, Daemons will be almost total uneffected by the Null zone while everyone else will be hurt greatly.

Dooks Dizzo
25-01-2009, 15:17
Gentlemen (and ladies) the tournament is up and a go. We have table space, prize support and a date set.

Full details can be found here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179990

Even for those not interested or not able to make the tourny I very much want to hear from you! This is my first Tournament and I want it to be just as much fun as possible. Feed back from hobbyists is greatly appreciated.